Serious Something I've thought about...

[MadCat]

Recently this video has come to my mind:

Spoiler: Video in here

Boy does this say something.
I REALLY wanted to share this with a community that probably hasn't even HEARD about this. That doesn't really think about it that much. I wanted to present this to a place where people would appreciate it. Some of the things stated in this video I agree with other parts I don't. A few schools actually listened to this so you know this is going somewhere. A few points people make are: well he's British! Us in America are just fine! Stop poising our childrens' minds with lies! My response: Hey you can not deny that pretty much all the points he makes are true in almost EVERY country not just U.K. and U.S. And also they are not lies just statements put in a way that offends the modern day education system. But P.E. is the only way some people will actually exercise! Well that's the health departments problem not the education department. I personally understand this. But if it counts as "education" they should actually teach you something or educate you. So yeah that is about it for me. This guy has made some great points and if I can get this ball rolling again, If you people can help, we will have made an everlasting change in the world. Please spread this to the world, make this change, you want it to happen, but you have to work for it. I wanna hear your feedback, I wanna hear the world! I wanna see the change!

Summary: Education=broken

REMEMBER the only way to keep this thread going is to write a reply! Feedback will change the world!

 

[Sargon]

Schools are not places where children would be parented and taught to learn critical thinking. Kids learn these things from they parents and on their own as their lives teach them. Schools are places where children learn predetermined "common knowledge" which is partly useful and partly pointless. The decisions, which matters are being taught in our education systems, are compromises of many different (political) parties and their practical uses are therefore scattered.

Children are defenseless. They don't have a much say in their education. Adults/teachers/decision-makers are not forced to care about the opinions of kids. And because they have become adults, they have no longer a touch in their childhood education and thus they usually have no longer a strong will to change it.

When pupils are learning at school, they are supposed to learn the subjects, no matter if these had any real relevance to their daily lives or future at all. If you don't want to learn a certain thing that you don't think you'll ever need in the future, you are in the danger of getting a bad grade. This is the way our world works: the strongest (=adults) decides the weakest (=children) submits.

 

[MadCat]

Schools are not places where children would be parented and taught to learn critical thinking. Kids learn these things from they parents and on their own as their lives teach them. Schools are places where children learn predetermined "common knowledge" which is partly useful and partly pointless. The decisions, which matters are being taught in our education systems, are compromises of many different (political) parties and their practical uses are therefore scattered.

Children are defenseless. They don't have a much say in their education. Adults/teachers/decision-makers are not forced to care about the opinions of kids. And because they have become adults, they have no longer a touch in their childhood education and thus they usually have no longer a strong will to change it.

When pupils are learning at school, they are supposed to learn the subjects, no matter if these had any real relevance to their daily lives or future at all. If you don't want to learn a certain thing that you don't think you'll ever need in the future, you are in the danger of getting a bad grade. This is the way our world works: the strongest (=adults) decides the weakest (=children) submits.

you have just stated what happens at schools. I wanna know what the world has to say about this not what is currently happening. Sure this is a fabulous description but I feel like this should be different. I honestly can't quite tell what side you are taking. I'd like to know.

 

[Chris]

We're kind of in a hole here in the US, and for several reasons. I think the problem of this horrible educational system is deeper and multi-faceted than what this person is expressing, and this is just a symptom of it. The core of it is that we're all still using a very old and outdated method for broadly distributing what Bauroth calls "predetermined common knowledge", and that pre-university level schools - at least in the United States - are geared more for maximizing test scores instead of actually teaching.

It's good that we had a system that broadly distributed knowledge at a general level, but we've failed to update and refine it so that it doesn't fail the extreme ends of the spectrum of people who learn at different rates than the general population. That would have been fine 100 to 150 years ago, but there's so many people now that can't be ignored who are either much more intelligent and capable of handling what the schools can pump out, and those that are overwhelmed by it. Such people are either not getting the help they need in understanding the work, or are so bored and disconnected from it that they don't grasp the importance of having an education, even if it's just a piece of paper that says they're capable. Many don't really understand (I put myself in this camp) the purpose of having those pieces of paper that say you're educated, until they're an adult. They're then left with few options to resolve this.

Of course, this is stuff we already know. The solution is "well, we need a more streamlined system that teaches kids to be curious, and teachers to inspire them". Great on paper, but we've ruined this by managing to do something you'd think was nearly impossible unless you took a peak behind the curtain: pump loads of money into public education, and still under-incentivize people to become teachers. Teachers have to be "on" all day every day, even on days they're not actually teaching. They have to spend their nights - and summers - grinding out appropriate coursework for their class, only to return to the other grind of being under-appreciated and under-utilized by said class, for relatively little money.

This sort of thing makes it easy to see why those who have been 'foolish' enough to enter this field, full of hope and compassion for kids, end up doing a 180 and stop caring almost entirely in a few years.

There's more to it I believe, such as the utter lack of real structure and discipline that kids have, but I think that would contain more 'personal opinion' than the things I've noted above, and I don't want to get into it at the moment.

 

[Sargon]

you have just stated what happens at schools. I wanna know what the world has to say about this not what is currently happening. Sure this is a fabulous description but I feel like this should be different. I honestly can't quite tell what side you are taking. I'd like to know.

I would like to change many things in my country's education system but it is unfortunate I don't have the will to fight for this. For now on, I'll be writing about Finland and not about the education system in general. Then you will understand my feelings and thoughts better. I have heard horror stories about other countries (especially USA) but this post will not meddle with them.

Here in Finland, the education of children is solely public unless you choose homeschooling. (We have private schools in practice but the law of Finland regards them as a form of homeschooling.) The law and the edicts determine in detail, which kind of matters and subjects children must learn. This compulsory education leaves little space for alternative learning.

As @Chris wrote above me, children learn at different rates. It would be wise to take this into account. We could let more talented and motivated pupils to progress faster than other pupils and give special education to slower progressing pupils. During the time of the Internet, this shouldn't be a problem with the possibility of distance learning. However, the great and all-knowing goverments of Finland have decided to leave the elementary school in the Stone Age. The equalizing education has given us success in the past PISA studies but this has changed in recent years. Now that politicians could do things differently, they are incapable to act because they have lost their touch in their childhood education (because they are old on average), they are politically too divided and the economic state of Finland doesn't allow any funding of the education.

Instead of funding, the current government has decided to cut the money that goes to the education. In my opinion, this is really dangerous choice. If the cuts affect the standards of the teaching, they will affect our future labor force and our country's competitiveness. In fact, these cuts are even more ironical because, before the last election, our political leaders promised to not cut from the education. This is one reason why I have no motivation to fight for better schools. If I can't recognize when some politicians are lying then I don't really bother to vote them at all. And because I don't vote them, there is no possibility for any change.

I hope my post hasn't become too political but I'll give you one extra example from Finland. For many decades, our education from the elementary school to the universities has included one controversial subject: mandatory Swedish. For the vast majority of Finns, 94 % of the population, it is compulsory to study (Finland) Swedish language. It doesn't matter, whether you'll need the language anywhere in your life, you are forced to learn it. Of course, the 6 percent minority has to learn Finnish language in return but in my opinion this is only natural if it wishes to interact with the majority.

I was one of the persons who signed a civil initiative against the mandatory Swedish. It did gain enough signatures to move to the Finnish Parliament. According to surveys, more than 50 % of Finns and of the politicians would like to end the compulsory Swedish. In addition, there are not many arguments for the compulsion that wouldn't be used in the defence of the compulsion of any other language. However, when the civil initiative entered the Parliament, it was brought down by the latter. For some strange personal reasons, our political elite prevented it from coming into effect. I knew the initiative wouldn't probably be ratificated but the decision was really flattening to me. All this fighting for decades and reasonable arguments was nullified by personal agendas and political lies.

Hopefully this didn't go too much into the Adult Swim territory. I wonder if the thread could be moved there just in case.

 

[Kyouko Tsukino]

So, is he another parent looking for something to blame for his kids' lack of wisdom, or just running his mouth? A school should not be a substitute for good parenting. Nothing should.

Parents wanting to blame someone for their kids having a symbiotic relationship with a cellphone, or other such nice traits youngsters can develop? They should look at the mirror and see the one and only thing they can blame for it.

However, from my own country's experience, I could say that schools have given up on teaching, and do so in a rather pathetic and bland way. But that's a consequence of the "son of" mentality in my government: A teacher/professor will first be chosen for their family name, not their score in tests.

 

[MadCat]

A few more related videos about this subject

Spoiler: If you are offended by fowl language just ignore this

I feel like a lot of people would be scared of by a proper title "Don't Stay in School" so I just went with something more intriguing. I also feel like a lot of people are scared to share their opinion, Don't be! No matter which side you are on you are not alone!

 

[FlakMaster]

This comment is in response to other comments in the thread, not necessarily the main topic at hand.

50 years ago, Europe and America were very much 'Man is the breadbringer, Woman stays at home'. It's been decreasing for decades, but the recent decade has escalated beyond comparison.

Here's the thing. There's more single parents now. There's more parents working instead of looking after their children 24/7 because the living costs are so frikkin' high that they can't afford to not work. So, how can you expect them to teach their children all of the ways of the world? You don't. Parents aren't super-humans.

School and parenting both play equally important, if not school being moreso. You can prattle about how 'common knowledge' that school teaches is partially redundant all day, however the ability to learn is a key thing that schools have to do. That's the hidden thing behind maths. Yeah, all of the numericals might seem useless, but they're applicable to many events of the open world in many ways that aren't immediately apparent. Same kind of thing for English. You might not give a toss about poetry the whole of your life, but learning about it can change the way you express yourself for the better, vocally and in literature. Another example with design work, it can change how you approach all kinds of projects by dealing with them in the same structured way.

To speak of another problem: In the UK at the moment, there's an increasing issue with the lack of teachers. Why? Because of the students. Especially in secondary school, the students have become very aware of the power they hold. The teachers has to be extremely careful with what they say and do, otherwise they'll be caught in the net and the students will try to get them done for assault or sexual harassment or something similar. And yet, the students can spout out so much abuse towards the teachers and get away with it without any sort of punishment (before you say detention, good luck convincing them to attend).

Want a fact to know how bad that problem is? 40% of teachers in the UK leave after their first year. They go though university to get that fancy degree and bang, they quit within a year. I witnessed several teachers quit because of pupil extreme behaviour during my time in secondary school. Of course, that issue is stacked with the heavy workload that comes with being a teacher, but my point still stands.

Edit: Concerning the main topic, this is a problem that is getting resolved. During my time in secondary school, we had numerous days of the school year dedicated to the practical, important things that needed to be known in life. Such as relationships, the dangers of drugs, alcohol and smoking, job searching, laws and so on. There were barely any of these days when I was in Year7, but it got progressively higher as I got older. At Year10, we had at least 15 of these days per school year.

Eh, it might have been specific to my school. There's a lot of schools out there, but the one I attended was like a hidden gem.

 

[MadCat]

Hidden Gem indeed considering the majority of the millions of people who watched this have said that this applied to them.

 

[Arpiter]

I do have to agree, schools do teach some things that are unnecessary and when you finally graduate in high school they just release you and hope you survive
and sometimes teachers just don't even care about the students they just throw books and worksheets at you and hope you learn something

Spoiler: And more stuff about school to rant about

school:make time for your interests and hobbies!
school: oh btw we're going to keep you here for about 6 1/2 hours. and after that, we're going to give you hours of homework.

school:eat 3 meals a day!
school:you don't have time for breakfast if you want to get here on time, though. and here's lunch, it's cardboard.

school:school is free!
school: oh, but you have to pay for any ap classes, textbooks, folders, supplies, and materials for projects

school:you earn the grades you get!
school:what do you mean this teacher gives you bad grades because they don't like you? that's ridiculous!

school:respect your teachers.
school: oh, but they don't have to respect you. even if you don't know the answer they can still call you out in front of the whole class. and don't forget, if you correct them, we'll lower your grade.

school:everyone is an individual!
school:here's a standardized test to figure out how smart you all are.

school:balance your social life and academics.
school:but you also have to do homework and study for the rest of the day.

school:we accept all love!
school:stop kissing and hugging eachother. that's gross.

school:bullying is bad!
school:but our teachers won't help you if you don't say anything.

school:it's okay to be out sick.
school:but the teacher won't explain it to you if you were. that's /your/ fault that you were sick.

school:act like adults.
school:but we're going to treat you like children.

On a side note his hair is awesome

 

[MadCat]

Also some others for your list @Arpiter

school: Exercise is good for you!
School: so lets waste about 1/6 of your middle school experience to it

school: everyone is an individual (along with what you said)
school: so lets make you wear the required outfit that is the same as everyone else
and
school: so lets make you entire P.E. grade based off whether or not you play dress up and look the same as everyone else!
and
school: oh yeah and no hats or bandannas either

school: No question is a bad question
teacher: Don't ask dumb questions

school: We give students lots of opportunities to join social groups and clubs!
School: but most of those are to do stuff for our own work cause we are lazy it builds character it's fun! (yearbook club really!)

 

[MegaMage314 🌳]

Yeah, as a student I can confidently say that the majority of time I spent at school and working on homework felt like a complete waste.

 

[FlakMaster]

Hidden Gem indeed considering the majority of the millions of people who watched this have said that this applied to them.

But again, I ask that you consider what I am trying to present in this paragraph carefully:

School and parenting both play equally important, if not school being moreso. You can prattle about how 'common knowledge' that school teaches is partially redundant all day, however the ability to learn is a key thing that schools have to do. That's the hidden thing behind maths. Yeah, all of the numericals might seem useless, but they're applicable to many events of the open world in many ways that aren't immediately apparent. Same kind of thing for English. You might not give a toss about poetry the whole of your life, but learning about it can change the way you express yourself for the better, vocally and in literature. Another example with design work, it can change how you approach all kinds of projects by dealing with them in the same structured way.

I know what all of this is on about, but a lot of people are looking at it far too directly and literally and missing out on how learning about such subjects develops your mind in certain ways.

Also, it just occurred to me. In the UK, you are expected (but not forced) to go to college after you complete secondary school. College is the place where you are meant to be developing independence and learn the knowledge of real life, not necessarily secondary school.

 

[MegaMage314 🌳]

But again, I ask that you consider what I am trying to present in this paragraph carefully:



I know what all of this is on about, but a lot of people are looking at it far too directly and literally and missing out on how learning about such subjects develops your mind in certain ways.

Also, it just occurred to me. In the UK, you are expected (but not forced) to go to college after you complete secondary school. College is the place where you are meant to be developing independence and learn the knowledge of real life, not necessarily secondary school.

I can understand that basic math and reading skills are important, but at some point the information they try to teach you ends up being completely useless outside of specific occupations. I used to like math because it came easy to me and I was able to apply the things I learned outside of school. At some point though, we started having to learn things that were less useful and more complex, and by the time we got to imaginary numbers I had lost interest in the classes. I stopped retaining new information because I never found any reason to remember it.

 

[FlakMaster]

I can understand that basic math and reading skills are important, but at some point the information they try to teach you ends up being completely useless outside of specific occupations. I used to like math because it came easy to me and I was able to apply the things I learned outside of school. At some point though, we started having to learn things that were less useful and more complex, and by the time we got to imaginary numbers I had lost interest in the classes. I stopped retaining new information because I never found any reason to remember it.

It's not necessarily the subject and/or information regarding it which you're being taught that's important.

How you acquire, interpret and analyse information is something 'hidden' that is taught.

 

[MegaMage314 🌳]

It's not necessarily the subject and/or information regarding it which you're being taught that's important.

How you acquire, interpret and analyse information is something 'hidden' that is taught.

Well, I don't see why that means we have to spend years studying information that isn't important. Why can't we learn to acquire, interpret, and analyse, while being taught the skills we need to succeed in this world?

 

[FlakMaster]

Because that's something that doesn't always come with getting taught about basic law, taxes, job searching and whatnot? Most of that stuff is just knowledge, nothing more, which doesn't really develop anything.

 

[MadCat]

Human Rights article 26:

1.Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
2. Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
3. Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Now I who wants to see how many of these promises have stayed true!

Everyone has the right to education: yes but not addressing the topic

Education is free: no books and supplies and basically everything you need are still payed for by the parents.

Elementary school is compulsory so it is free: yes but this does not quite address the point that the things being taught are insufficient towards childrens' knowledge.

Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit: higher schools cost money so uh what is this merit you speak of?

Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality: Except those who wear uniforms everyday and participate in P.E. and once again that no hats or bandannas thing. Some schools go so far as no graphic clothing; all solid colors.
and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms: Which we weren't taught.

It shall promote understanding: of useless subjects but yeah school is learning which is mostly understanding

tolerance: of the useless subjects but yeah still true

and friendship: except bullies and people being bullied (almost everyone)

among all nations: of which we never really communicate too so not really

racial or religious groups: besides all the racist teenagers and the fact that in history they only really focus on Christianity when it comes to modern
religions. At least in my experiences.

shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace: how can we have peace with the world when humans aren't peacful. Seriously we created instruments just to hurt each other. You don't see birds and fish doing that. They have the capabilities. They are smart enough. Otters use rocks to crack open shellfish. Man used rocks to hurt other man. Humans are a disgusting race sometimes. Of topic a bit there

Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children: yeah but you are only given three options: normal school, private school, or home school (all of which are broken except home school which can be broken by a child and parent's realationship which in homeschooling is more rare than normal school but I just thought I'd point that out)

THE RESULTS
Kept true: 4
Broken: 7

What does that tell you about not just "education" but humans as a whole? A lot.

 

[FlakMaster]

Education is free: no books and supplies and basically everything you need are still payed for by the parents.

No? The only thing I had to pay for is most school trips (which isn't directly to do with education) and the replacement of education supplies. Besides, that right is speaking of the education itself. You have to be very careful when reading laws and the like, because they are taken very, very literally.

Elementary school is compulsory so it is free: yes but this does not quite address the point that the things being taught are insufficient towards childrens' knowledge.

Well no, they don't have any relevance.

Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit: higher schools cost money so uh what is this merit you speak of?

College for students of the age of 16-18 is completely free and there often have been talks about making college mandatory. All students that cannot afford to go to university can get what is known as a student loan. So, yes, money isn't a key issue here and higher education is accessible based on merit or otherwise known as how worthy they are intellectually.

Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality: Except those who wear uniforms everyday and participate in P.E. and once again that no hats or bandannas thing. Some schools go so far as no graphic clothing; all solid colors.

This is a contradictory point you are making. Before you were saying that students should be taught skills of work and real life, of which dressing up smart on a regular basis is one of them.

tolerance: of the useless subjects but yeah still true

Not related.

and friendship: except bullies and people being bullied (almost everyone)

...No? While bullying will always be an issue that cannot be completely solved, you are putting in exaggerations here.

racial or religious groups: besides all the racist teenagers and the fact that in history they only really focus on Christianity when it comes to modern
religions. At least in my experiences.

Racism was near to nil in my education. In fact, all of the 'badasses' and 'ringleaders' of the students would pick you out and bully you for being racist if you were so. Kind of like how hating homosexuals isn't the norm anymore.

shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace: how can we have peace with the world when humans aren't peacful. Seriously we created instruments just to hurt each other. You don't see birds and fish doing that. They have the capabilities. They are smart enough. Otters use rocks to crack open shellfish. Man used rocks to hurt other man. Humans are a disgusting race sometimes. Of topic a bit there

It clearly states 'the maintenance of peace'. The whole world as it is is considered to be in a state of peace. You're always going to have the petty wars here and there which will be highlighted to the extreme on the news, but the last time the world was in serious chaos was in WWII. The Cold War is a candidate, but was mostly filled with nothing but threats. Barring the Vietnam War, of course, which is why I considered it to be a candidate.

While yes, I can agree to an extent of the faults of humanity, violence is not one of them. That is a natural thing as a whole with nearly every animal. You just never see animals have 'wars' to our extent because, well, firstly they don't organise en masse and secondly they aren't the dominant race. There will always be violence for as long as we continue being different in the mind.

Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children: yeah but you are only given three options: normal school, private school, or home school (all of which are broken except home school which can be broken by a child and parent's realationship which in homeschooling is more rare than normal school but I just thought I'd point that out)

No, that's not how it works. Parents do have the right to choose which school their children attend to. The options are often limited be accessibility; the ease of which it is to travel to the school. So, it could be seen as only those three options if there is only one accessible government-funded school.

Also, just to clarify, I didn't go to a fancy school. My secondary school was in a council estate.

 

[DaBomb]

I can't help but feel that the majority of the holes in his education should have been filled by his parents/guardians, not by his school.
Here's a list of what he said school didn't teach him:

• Getting a Job
• Paying Tax
• Voting
• Looking After One's Health
• Current Events
• What Laws There Are
• Financial Advice
• Human Rights
• Trading Stocks
• How to Budget
• How to Raise Kids
• What an Affidavit is
• Basic First Aid
• Recognition of Mental Disorders and Diseases
• How to Buy a House
• Practical Medicines
• Domestic Abuse
• How to Be a Parent
• Bilingualism
• Understanding the Political System

Most of these things are quite personal and variable, and I reckon either his parents should have taught him or he could have easily found out for himself. Schools teach you the basics on how to work your work, not live your life. It just feels like he's heaping too much responsibility on a system that's already responsible for a lot.