Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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Therefore, I believe that she should also have neutral damage.
Using it while playing Summoner (or Mage or Ranger) always leaves a nasty feeling in the back of your head.
It really doesn’t honestly. The developers never intended for classes to become this obsessively stuck to. Class specific runs always have been and always will be a challenge run that is restricted by the player and the player only. There is still nothing stopping you from utterly outperforming the class-obsessed people by mixing summons, a magic weapon I’ve already mentioned, and a ranger weapon. The developers balanced around that, not you needlessly confining yourself. There is a reason melee is still borderline impossible against wall of flesh, and it’s because the game just wasn’t designed for it.

That’s why melee gets twice as many post moon lord weapons as everyone else, and why summoner is consistently weaker than other classes when played “pure”.

But as long as you’re here, you may as well just react to this post with “angry” for what feels like the billionth time in a row. It doesn’t affect my reaction score in any way, after all.
 
It really doesn’t honestly. The developers never intended for classes to become this obsessively stuck to. Class specific runs always have been and always will be a challenge run that is restricted by the player and the player only. There is still nothing stopping you from utterly outperforming the class-obsessed people by mixing summons, a magic weapon I’ve already mentioned, and a ranger weapon. The developers balanced around that, not you needlessly confining yourself. There is a reason melee is still borderline impossible against wall of flesh, and it’s because the game just wasn’t designed for it.

That’s why melee gets twice as many post moon lord weapons as everyone else, and why summoner is consistently weaker than other classes when played “pure”.

But as long as you’re here, you may as well just react to this post with “angry” for what feels like the billionth time in a row. It doesn’t affect my reaction score in any way, after all.

I react angrily because I feel that you are not focusing on other points of view. I have nothing to play Terraria all that is, but the game itself does make you choose your class and stick to it. This is why I am of the opinion that the attacking accessories in Expert Mode should not be tied to any class, but should be neutral so that they can be used freely by any class. When playing as a Summoner, you are not using the Golden Shower and MiniShark at the same time, but want to stick to the summoner's weapon. Shield of Cthulhu is quite problematic here as it provides defense and mobility, but it ruins the game for those taking One Class Run due to melee damage. On the one hand, it is a very useful accessory, but on the other hand, it is a melee weapon. That's why I think Shield should switch to neutral damage.
 
It really doesn’t honestly. The developers never intended for classes to become this obsessively stuck to. Class specific runs always have been and always will be a challenge run that is restricted by the player and the player only. There is still nothing stopping you from utterly outperforming the class-obsessed people by mixing summons, a magic weapon I’ve already mentioned, and a ranger weapon. The developers balanced around that, not you needlessly confining yourself. There is a reason melee is still borderline impossible against wall of flesh, and it’s because the game just wasn’t designed for it.

That’s why melee gets twice as many post moon lord weapons as everyone else, and why summoner is consistently weaker than other classes when played “pure”.

But as long as you’re here, you may as well just react to this post with “angry” for what feels like the billionth time in a row. It doesn’t affect my reaction score in any way, after all.
ummm yeah leinfors stated something about the damage on the very bottom for the bone glove change, just wanted to put that out there.
Bone Glove (Rework)
- This item has been completely overhauled and turned into an accessory
- When equipped, the player will shoot Crossbones towards their cursor whenever they are attacking, once per second. Consider it like a sword projectile, except it works for every weapon.
- The bones deal 25 class-neutral damage, but additionally ignore up to 25 enemy defense.
- Now also has vanity visibility in the Gloves spot
- Note: In practice, this should allow the Bone Gloves to be simultaneously viable for more classes than just Ranged, and also give it a bit more longevity
Edit: also this is not meant to be rude, I’m just stating something.
 
If the Bone Gauntlet as an Expert accessory does no damage to any class, shouldn't it be the same with Shield of Cthulhu?

The new Bone Glove is class neutral because it's a passive DPS increase, if its damage was classified then one class would unfairly get more value out of it than others.

The SoC is entirely a mobility item; its damage could be lowered to 1 and it'd be used for the exact same reasons, so it straight up doesnt matter if its damage is melee or not.
 
The new Bone Glove is class neutral because it's a passive DPS increase, if its damage was classified then one class would unfairly get more value out of it than others.

The SoC is entirely a mobility item; its damage could be lowered to 1 and it'd be used for the exact same reasons, so it straight up doesnt matter if its damage is melee or not.
You're letting something known as loss aversion affect your judgement. You don't actually lose anything if you're playing a non-ranger class and you use the new bone glove if it deals ranged damage. It's like using mechanical glove (or its upgrades) for summoners for using whips, even though the damage boost doesn't apply to whips.
Fear that you're not going to get optimal value out of bone glove because you aren't using ranger gear is irrational, you don't have to be "loyal" to one of the classes to play the game.

Plus Shield of Cthulhu is not entirely a mobility item, its damage and knockback are extremely useful when you're getting swarmed, but because it's not in debate of whether it should have non-class damage you don't feel the loss aversion. SOC is definitely part a movement accessory, but it's damage is still quite useful, even for non-melee; Just like it would be for the bone glove having ranged damage

Edit: i said the wrong accessory, saying Power glove instead of mechanical glove.
 
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Uh... no? It is exactly effective as before for everyone except ranger, who just gets a few more points of damage. Class neutral damage isn’t boosted by any class. It’s a buff to give it any damage type. Summoner would get exactly the same amount of leverage out of it as before (in fact, they would get more use out of it because it allows crimson armor and accessory prefixes to affect it)
Challenge runs are not an excuse for balance and never will be. Also there is not a single item which does classless damage besides the bone glove. (Except the lawn mower but you’re not even meant to really attack with that anyway lol)
Correct, but those are more passive in nature. The Bone Glove, mounts, and summons can receive input from the player and therefore aren’t passive like they are. Again, unless you obsessively restrict yourself to a challenge run when the game says absolutely nowhere that you need to, there is no reason for them not to give it a damage class as it is a straight buff.
Shield of Cthulhu is melee class and that has never stopped anyone from using it. Especially in class specific runs which aren’t melee. Also one could argue that the Golden Shower is another example, being a free way to boost damage to all classes and taking absolutely no dedication to use (even chippy used one in his ranger playthroughs.)
It really doesn’t honestly. The developers never intended for classes to become this obsessively stuck to. Class specific runs always have been and always will be a challenge run that is restricted by the player and the player only. There is still nothing stopping you from utterly outperforming the class-obsessed people by mixing summons, a magic weapon I’ve already mentioned, and a ranger weapon. The developers balanced around that, not you needlessly confining yourself. There is a reason melee is still borderline impossible against wall of flesh, and it’s because the game just wasn’t designed for it.

That’s why melee gets twice as many post moon lord weapons as everyone else, and why summoner is consistently weaker than other classes when played “pure”.

But as long as you’re here, you may as well just react to this post with “angry” for what feels like the billionth time in a row. It doesn’t affect my reaction score in any way, after all.
I cannot like these enough.

Challenge runs are not an excuse for balance and never will be. Also there is not a single item which does classless damage besides the bone glove. (Except the lawn mower but you’re not even meant to really attack with that anyway lol)
Especially this one.
 
You're letting something known as loss aversion affect your judgement. You don't actually lose anything if you're playing a non-ranger class and you use the new bone glove if it deals ranged damage. It's like using mechanical glove (or its upgrades) for summoners for using whips, even though the damage boost doesn't apply to whips.

You might be missing the part where Ranged has balance-dominance for large stretches of the game and generally doesn't need even an ounce of favoritism towards it.

IF I gave it a specific class damage (and I won't, because it is a purely damage-centric accessory), it would be Melee or Summoner, in all likelihood, purely from a balance perspective. Magic doesn't particularly need it, Ranged REALLY doesn't need it, and Melee/Summoner have the most catch-up work to do at the post-Dungeon->Wall of Flesh tier.

Of course, that is all to say nothing of the fact that I expect very few Ranged users will actually be at any sort of loss over the "loss" of Bone Glove-classic; this is probably a buff for Rangers any way you look at it, assuming players even use it. Admittedly, its hard to predict how popular an accessory will be in the long term, especially with limited slots. A part of me mourns for the loss of one of the few remaining vestiges of the "Thrown" class, but I don't think sacrificing this entire Expert boss drop for that cause was worth it. I'd rather it be useful (and I'm hoping people find that this is). Supplementary damage/DPS boosters are rather uncommon prior to Wall of Flesh.

EDIT: Note that the above doesn't mean I don't have buffs in store for various pieces of Ranged equipment. The more I look at Ranged, the more I find that it is a class characterized by a small/moderate number of weapons that fall very high above the average in potential, with a large quantity of underutilized weapons that fall far short of it. I've tried to take the approach of taking the edge off these "high performing outliers" while improving the under-utilized weapons/ammo, so that a more moderate average performance can be reached. Holy Arrow/Stormbow was the quintessential example of such an item, and Ranged players will note my improvements to Marrow, Ice Bow, Hallowed Repeater, and Phantom Phoenix as the other side of that balancing act. Even if true equality hasn't been reached, reducing the gap is an admirable goal, in my eyes.

Out of curiosity, what are people's thoughts on the Rocket/Grenade/Proximity Launcher/Stynger changes? I haven't heard much about those (probably because pre-Frost Moon Rockets aren't often used).
 
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Still interested in it, is there a chance Shield of Cthulhu will come from Melee Damage to Neutral Damage?

It wasn't one of my changes, and given that all but the most severe emergency balance changes are probably closed at this point, its not likely.

As Jota Bame pointed out, its primarily a utility item that does not do substantial DPS, with the fact of damage/bounce back being far more useful than the damage actually being done.

And for that matter, changing it from Melee to Neutral serves only one purpose: minor nerf to Expert Melee. That is a counter-productive action, in my book.
 
I honestly don't think anyone really cares what damage type accessories cause except for the most extreme of challenge runs. People will use SoC, Spore Sac, Bone Glove etc. regardless of what class damage it deals, because people don't really care that much about accessory damage types.

@Leinfors er, what were those changes to rockets and such? I think I missed those, and I'd be glad to share my insight.
 
Out of curiosity, what are people's thoughts on the Rocket/Grenade/Proximity Launcher/Stynger changes? I haven't heard much about those (probably because pre-Frost Moon Rockets aren't often used).

I haven't used the Grenade and Proximity Launchers yet, but I've played around a bunch with Rocket Launcher and Stynger.

The Stynger is amazing now and one of the best Golem drops; definitely the best Rocket Launcher until Electrosphere Launcher/Snowman Cannon.

Rocket Launcher is far more usable than it used to be but also feels like it could be better still? The biggest issue is that it still has the risk of hitting yourself with an explosion and losing a ton of health, and it's not so strong that it warrants the risk of killing yourself like that. So if it had to get a buff I'd say remove the explosion self-damage in some way.
 
@Leinfors er, what were those changes to rockets and such? I think I missed those, and I'd be glad to share my insight.

The intention was to try to make all of the three early Rocket Launchers have some sort of unique niche, but increase all of their viability in one way or another. I figured Stynger (long suffering from a severe nerf in the days of Pumpkin Moon), could use a little boost too, so it received the same 2x primary damage bonus from Rocket Launcher as well.

Grenade Launcher (Buff)
- Use Time decreased from 30 to 20

Rocket Launcher (Buff)
- Damage decreased from 50 to 45
- Does 2x damage on direct hits to a single target

Proximity Mine Launcher (Rework / Buff)
- Does 3x damage when mines are stationary, normal damage when they are still moving
- Use Time increased from 40 to 50
- Reduced the number of active mines that you can have at once

Stynger (Buff)
- Does 2x damage on direct hits to a single target (Only applies to the initial bolt, not the fragments)
 
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@Leinfors not sure if you have confirmed this or not, but are whips being worked on in 1.4.1 at all? There’s a ton of room for new whips to be introduced, and I feel like whip progression isn’t very strong. Whips should be longer and faster as you progress, similar to swords. They also could shoot projectiles, but at this point I think that’s a job for mods. Also, this is more of me just being picky, but all whips have the same sound effect. Like swords have a variety of different ones, but whips all sound like the basic leather one.
 
@Leinfors not sure if you have confirmed this or not, but are whips being worked on in 1.4.1 at all? There’s a ton of room for new whips to be introduced, and I feel like whip progression isn’t very strong. Whips should be longer and faster as you progress, similar to swords. They also could shoot projectiles, but at this point I think that’s a job for mods. Also, this is more of me just being picky, but all whips have the same sound effect. Like swords have a variety of different ones, but whips all sound like the basic leather one.

The majority of what you are mentioning here is way outside of the scope of this thread. Most Whips ARE longer with progression, though speed is hit or miss in that regard.
 
I react angrily because I feel that you are not focusing on other points of view. I have nothing to play Terraria all that is, but the game itself does make you choose your class and stick to it. This is why I am of the opinion that the attacking accessories in Expert Mode should not be tied to any class, but should be neutral so that they can be used freely by any class. When playing as a Summoner, you are not using the Golden Shower and MiniShark at the same time, but want to stick to the summoner's weapon. Shield of Cthulhu is quite problematic here as it provides defense and mobility, but it ruins the game for those taking One Class Run due to melee damage. On the one hand, it is a very useful accessory, but on the other hand, it is a melee weapon. That's why I think Shield should switch to neutral damage.
I understand your perspective, it's one I used to share, in fact. Playing as one class is fine, but you should never expect the developers to balance around that as it's simply not how the game was designed. The game does not make you choose a class. Look at every armor set related to the OOA and also Crimson armor, and you get at least 5 accessory slots to mix your damage bonuses with. Considering that it takes 5 seconds to craft an alternate class' helm and switch to it, as well as the fact that there is nothing stopping you from speccing into summoner a little bit and getting minions while you're playing ranger, the game really doesn't force you into picking a class and staying with it at all. Again, challenge runs are just that, a challenge run, and should be completely disregarded when talking about balance as they are the player limiting themself, NOT the developer. The reason Ranger is considered broken by them is because it goes against this and often becomes the only option for less skilled players, and makes other damage types pointless.
Also, the Summoner is a very strong class if you can play it.
It's strong if you play it impure, Like, stunlocking the entire screen during master mode invasion events while standing completely out in the open with pre-plantera gear levels of strong, but pure summoner is both squishy and has far, far lower dps than everyone else.
 
The intention was to try to make all of the three early Rocket Launchers have some sort of unique niche, but increase all of their viability in one way or another. I figured Stynger (long suffering from a severe nerf in the days of Pumpkin Moon), could use a little boost too, so it received the same 2x primary damage bonus from Rocket Launcher as well.

Grenade Launcher (Buff)
- Use Time decreased from 30 to 20

Rocket Launcher (Buff)
- Damage decreased from 50 to 45
- Does 2x damage on direct hits to a single target

Proximity Mine Launcher (Rework / Buff)
- Does 3x damage when mines are stationary, normal damage when they are still moving
- Use Time increased from 40 to 50
- Reduced the number of active mines that you can have at once

Stynger (Buff)
- Does 2x damage on direct hits to a single target (Only applies to the initial bolt, not the fragments)
I never got the chance to use the Grenade & Rocket Launchers (cuz RNG), but I can gladly tell that the Stynger is my go to weapon for crowd-control during any event, especially during the initial waves for the Pumpkin and Frost Moon. It's not very powerful against bosses, but since that's probably not its intended purpose I don't see that as a flaw.

Proximity Mine Launcher still does not feel viable as it is now. The relatively slow use time, and the mines passing through platforms instead of landing on one makes it very hard to use it consistently. Right now I just see it as a fun weapon to use, especially during pvp where you can easily troll your friends :D
 
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