Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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Pixel Box
1、please add the pixel box into the game,such as allowing players to buy it from NPCs or make it.
2、repair the bug that we must use it through homologous activation.
Before modification:
78b87d6b69ce71aecab7672c162db2230c86966e.gif

After modification:
b04976e9cd60f360bf6e04d80ca5fc992cac5314.gif

Additionalcontext:
Delete the “PixelBoxPass()”on the third row from the last in
Terraria.Wiring.TripWire.
20200829151930.png

Then add “PixelBoxPass()”into “while (_GatesNext.Count > 0)”in Terraria.Wiring.LogicGatePass(as the figure shows).
20200829151911.png

Last,add“PixelBoxPass()”into methods in Terraria.Wiring.HitSwitch which call the method of Terraria.Wiring.TripWire.
20200829151921.png

Ps:English is not my mother language,if you cannot understand,you can ask me,it‘s my honor.
 
But they can stack with Spectre Boots which will give you greater mobility, because Spectre Boots give you a pretty good flight time and wing have good flying and gliding speed. It not only seems weird to have wing in Pre-Hardmode, but also gives you too good mobility for the state of the game, you can obtain them (You can theoretically obtain it before EoC as goblins come just after you break a Shadow Orb/ Crimson Heart (to get spectre boots) and you can obtain wing at your first day too (if you're lucky enough to get a gravitation potion), and even after BoC or EoW it would be a more powerful set up, then Horseshoe Baloon + Boots). And if developers are trying to prevent huge Progression-Skipping ways, why wouldn't they do it with that.

Stacking flight accessories isn't exactly progression skip. All it really lets you do is get to flying islands faster, or "simulate" true wing flight earlier. And that's been possible by combining multiple flight/jump accessories for years.

Stacked Balloons, Amphibian Boots, and Rocket Boots all have more flight-time impact than Fledgling Wings do. Besides, as you mention, Gravitation Potion is a thing anyway.

I disagree with the assessment here. Fledgling Wings offer only one powerful early benefit that was not previously available: hover fall.

1: After you guys retire from Terraria, if some sort of game-breaking bug (like the duck glitch) appears that won't necessarily break the game by crashing it or whatever, but is pretty wacky like the duck glitch, will you guys come back to fix said glitch? I assume you would if it's just after a couple of weeks, but what about a couple months or more?

2: Will you guys still be hanging out in the forums and Discord with the community after Terraria is finished?

Thank you!

1. I can't speak to what kind of bug fixes Red/Cenx will approve after the fact. If its truly severe, they may allow late hotfixes. But I really don't know.

2. Given that Console/Mobile development will continue for some time after PC is finished, there is undoubtedly going to continue to be some media involvement, as we will literally still be working on the game (just not on PC). But after PC/Console/Mobile are ALL finished and settled? I'm really not sure the level of presence. Some, like Safeman and Loki, have logistical and social media roles that are likely to continue to be involved, because the game is still being sold, will likely have sales, etc. Others, like myself, will probably not have any strict obligation to be present, and would do so only for fun or to keep an eye on things. Hard to predict that. :)

@Leinfors This isn't related to my previous post, I'm curious about how the new advancements for the music items will work. Apparently you'll get achievements for playing music on the guitar items like the Stellar Tune and Ivy. Music isn't exactly the easiest thing to play, especially in a video game, so will they be some sort of guide in the tooltip on how it functions or something similar, because I already know that most people are going to look up tutorials online.

Finally, I watched a video by a YouTuber named Beaveracc, and he found out during his research that the Angler quests for his furniture items are very hard to get after the increased drop rates for the rarer items every 50 quests to the point where it's almost impossible to get them without extensive fishing for his quests. Will you guys be looking into that? :)

1. I'm not going to comment on achievements that haven't even been confirmed yet. I'd recommend waiting until you actually see them. ;)

2. We are aware of this, but changing it was denied.



Pixel Boxes were removed because their intended design was not logistically possible. They didn't work/were bugged in a way that couldn't be fixed (AFAIK), and so were never added.


I actually can't understand the developers a bit. Why can't defensive builds actually be powerful? If they allow 24% damage or Crit boost in Expert (I cover expert, as in Master mode defense is useless completely, as pretty much everyting one-shots, two-shots you), which is a massive bonus, why Defense can't give you equally powerful abilities as well? Right now defensive builds are not as good as I think, they should be.

Its due to the way Defense fundamentally works in Terraria. Ahem, uhh . . .

Lets take offensive builds scenarios, for instance:

1. If you fight Skeletron Prime with "500 DPS", and it takes you five minutes to beat him (after dodging/missing/etc is accounted for), then that's that. Five minutes is a substantial amount of time to continue to have to fight him, with the inherent risks that come with a boss fight.
2. Now, if you equip so much gear that you double your DPS? The boss fight is now 2.5 minutes long instead of 5. This is a huge improvement, sure, but its still substantial. That is still a non-negligible amount of time fighting Skeletron Prime, with all the risks inherent to that.
3. Now, lets say you go all the way and quintuple your DPS. The fight is STILL 1 full minute long. And so, while it grows ever shorter, the fight itself is still offering a proportional threat/time investment. Until you absolutely wipe the floor with them in seconds (which usually comes far later in the game, after multiple boss tiers), increasing your DPS is always a modifying factor on the boss fight, but it does not completely eliminate them as a threat.

Now lets look at defensive builds.
1. You fight Skeletron Prime (or any other boss, it doesn't really matter), and you have 50 Defense. And for the sake of argument, lets say that his attacks do 50 damage. This is normal mode, so your defense cuts that damage by half. Okay, cool, he's doing 25 damage to you per hit. That's a substantial chunk of damage still.
2. Now lets say you've finagled up a build with 80 Defense. His 50 damage attacks are now dealing about 10 damage per hit. That's pretty low, but its not nothing, so, okay, we're still in the clear here. You can't utterly face tank him, you might still die.
3. From here on, its all downhill. You keep stacking defensive benefits, and once you hit 100 Defense, his damage is completely nullified (down to a minimum of 1 damage). Even minor inclusion of Healing perks/furniture, plus the occasional potion, is going to be enough to stave off death from 1-damage hits. Once you've gotten enemy/boss damage down to 1, you've won. The enemy is never going to beat you, you've effectively negated their offensive power so far that they are no longer a threat at all (except if they have some sort of inherent time limit, like Skeletron Prime's dawn enrage, which is not the norm).

And so, therein lies the issue with empowering defensive builds. Offensive builds can merely reduce the duration of a fight, applying a sort of "modifier" that reduces, but does not entirely eliminate, a boss's threat. Defensive builds, as a result of the fundamental design of the Defense stat in Terraria, which cannot be changed at this point, have the potential ability to COMPLETELY nullify a boss's threat value to the minimum damage of 1.

And don't get me wrong: this is already possible. Throughout the game, via strategic use of various buffs and accessory combos, there are already a few bosses that can be tanked down to 1 damage, or close to it. Its not a good thing. I'm VERY hesitant to boost defensive combinations, because there are so many permutations and the risk of introducing "tank the boss down to 1" scenarios is a big concern of mine.

Just using a 5-accessory loadout in Normal mode, you can already get a 33 Defense bonus (one of them being Frozen Shield, which gives a Defense reduction bonus AS WELL). Make them all Warding, and then you've got a 53 Defense bonus. And I added 3 Defense to the Hero Shield and +1 each for Flesh Knuckle/Berserker Gloves, so THAT would bring the total to 58 in 1.4.1.

We've got Iron Skin Potion (8), Well Fed Tier 3 (4), Bast Statue (5), and if you are really careful, Dryad's Blessing for another 8, so that's 25 Defense from buffs, bringing our Accessory/Buff Defense combo up to 83 Defense. That's BEFORE armor! And if anything, that makes it worse, because the more we buff Defensive accessories, the more non-defensive classes (Summoners, Mages) can Defense stack until its abusable. Using the above combination, a Stardust Armor wearer could now reach 121 Defense (60 Damage Negation, plus the Frozen Shield bonus). You might argue that Stardust is post-ML, so fine, we'll do Spooky instead, for 30 Defense (113 total).

So I mean, what exactly can I do here? Every single point of extra defense can be accumulated up with all of the others, and once that "1-damage" threshold is reached, its over, bosses cease to exist as any sort of tier-appropriate thread. Someone mentioned making Warding give 6 Defense instead of 4? "Tack on 10 more Defense to the grand total". Make Warding give a % reduction instead of raw damage protection? This is actually a nerf to early game defense, as "-10 damage from a 30 damage hit" is far more potent than "-20% damage from a 30 damage hit". Furthermore, Defense reduction stacking is an equally terrifying beast, with Worm Scarf/Frozen Shield an already powerful combination that works for all classes. When combined with a Paladin Shield-wearer in MP, there are already some substantial "1-damage-boss" scenarios possible.

You mentioned increasing Expert/Master defensive scaling from 75%/100% respectively to 100%/200% respectively. This would actually worsen the issue!

Think about it:

1. Normal Mode: A player gets 50% Defense efficacy, against "100% damage" efficacy from enemies. This is what the basic game balance is designed around.
2. Expert Mode: Enemy damage is doubled to 200% efficacy (a 100% increase), while Player Defense is increased to 75% (a 50% increase). This works, because Expert is MEANT to be harder than Normal mode. If we doubled the player Defense efficacy to 100%, then the scaling is completely even . . . all you are doing is doubling the damage taken and doubling the damage reduced. This doesn't even maintain the status quo, because now the player has a 6th accessory slot to use, so the previous Defensive loadout actually has the addition of Worm Scarf/Celestial Shell, for MORE defense (not to mention another Warding prefix). That 58 Defense from before? We can call that 65/69 (Day/Night) with Warding Celestial Shell, or we could go 62 Defense + 17% Damage Reduction with Worm Scarf. If we maintained the defensive ratio, then this would mean it was actually EASIER to nullify enemy damage in Expert mode.
3. Master Mode: Enemy damage is tripled to 300% efficacy (a 200% increase from Normal) and Player Defense is increased to 100% (a 100% increase from Normal). You propose increasing Player Defense all the way to 200% efficacy . . . this would be way out of proportion. This would actually be a 300% increase in player Defense efficacy, from 50%->200%, which actually leaves enemy damage trailing behind, and it would be even easier than Normal mode to "1-damage" bosses. And of course, we are now talking about 7 Accessory slots, so we are up to 69/73 Accessory Defense + Worm Scarf. A Stardust Armor user would have 107 Defense, and with the proposed 200% defense efficacy, they'd actually be nullifying 214 damage. That's enough to reduce most of Master Moon Lord's attacks down to 1. In Stardust Armor.

So, the ultimate problem here is that boosts to defensive systems are an extremely delicate situation. Every single defense point added is combined with an ever growing tally of assembled defensive boosts, with an ever looming "critical mass threshold" where bosses become non-threats due to dealing 1 damage. Furthermore, the actual amount of defense available to ALL classes is relatively huge, which means that too many missteps here will result in Rangers, or even Mages and Summoners, being able to facetank enemies with the right loadouts. There are combinations where this is already possible, with certain classes/bosses. I dare not make that problem worse.

This is not a system that can be reworked. Not now. I've made some pretty significant changes, but I'm in no position to tear down the entire structure of Terraria's defensive systems and rework them from scratch. Not only do I not doubt it would be denied outright, I'm simply in no position to attempt to account for 20 bosses across 3 difficulties and 4 different classes. The sheer amount of rebalancing required would be phenomenal . . . I'd have to review/adjust every single piece of armor and every single defensive accessory in the game. Hundreds of items, dozens of bosses, multiple difficulties . . . the scale of that is tremendous, and I wouldn't really have much of an opportunity for second chances. Realistically, a better system from the start might have been a Damage Reduction % system with decreasing benefits, so that even the mightiest of tanks couldn't nullify damage, but that ship sailed in 2011. I can't bring it back now.

The best I've been able to do was give some % damage reduction bonuses to some of the Melee armors in 1.4, and a handful of minor defensive accessory boosts for 1.4.1, which have already been elaborated on. I honestly haven't had the time to thoroughly investigate the already-existing Defense stacking implications, which I know exist. The echoing repercussions of massive buffs to this system would take too long to evaluate, and I'd probably have to make corresponding counter-nerfs to other items or bosses to account for it, which really negates the point of such buffs in the first place.

tl;dr - Defense is a fickle, slippery slope that is eternally threatening to reach critical mass and undermine all the danger of bosses, and so even minor buffs to Defensive build potential could wreck everything.
 
I feel like the weaknesses of range in the melee class should exist, it shouldn't lose its identity in order to become viable like ranger and magic classes are.

It's true that swords with projectiles are better when up close, but you very rarely are going to do that, rather it's better to be at a distance and essentially be a lower dps, higher defense ranger

I think the best solution is kinda what we already have minus the projectile swords, against bosses where you need range, you can use boomerangs, yoyos, or flails. Also, you could make spears bigger imo. These weapons have some range while feeling in theme for the class and makes the class actually have a different play style that the other classes.

The issue is that, again, forcing melee into close quarters all the time does just that, make it unviable. Especially in Expert or Master Mode where enemies hit that much harder.

If you kept it so Melee’s only options to attack with distance had such low DPS, and the only way to pull good damage were to facetank, then Melee would become essentially useless. Nobody would want to spend the entire battle either hugging the boss’ face or have no DPS the entire time.

Melee already does this anyway, but to a lesser extreme, where it’s slightly weaker than Ranged or Magic at distance but much stronger if you get in close quarters, which you can’t always do. The way this is set now keeps Melee viable while also encouraging fighting closer, and I think hurting Melee’s projectile options even more is a terrible plan.

Melee’s “ranged” weapons are still less ranged than ranged or magic weapons anyway. Boomerangs only fly so far before returning, Vampire or Shadowflame Knives or Daybreak, etc. taper off quickly. Terra Blade and Influx Waver’s projectiles are noticably slower than Ranged projectiles, etc.

Finally, if you took away Melee’s projectiles, it would simply lack the magic of Ranged, Mage or Summoner in the late game. For example, Mage goes from shooting regular bolts to having giant lasers and spitting hurricanes, Summoner goes from having a lame bird or hornet to commanding an army of glowing bats, and Ranged just flat out appeals to your power fantasies.

Taking away or weakening high range options from Melee would not only make the class terrible, it would also make it less interesting. Balance and viability matter much more than technical accuracy. I think melee is fine exactly as it is right now, and honestly could afford to be slightly stronger if anything.
 
1. I can't speak to what kind of bug fixes Red/Cenx will approve after the fact. If its truly severe, they may allow late hotfixes. But I really don't know.

2. Given that Console/Mobile development will continue for some time after PC is finished, there is undoubtedly going to continue to be some media involvement, as we will literally still be working on the game (just not on PC). But after PC/Console/Mobile are ALL finished and settled? I'm really not sure the level of presence. Some, like Safeman and Loki, have logistical and social media roles that are likely to continue to be involved, because the game is still being sold, will likely have sales, etc. Others, like myself, will probably not have any strict obligation to be present, and would do so only for fun or to keep an eye on things. Hard to predict that. :)



1. I'm not going to comment on achievements that haven't even been confirmed yet. I'd recommend waiting until you actually see them. ;)

2. We are aware of this, but changing it was denied.




Pixel Boxes were removed because their intended design was not logistically possible. They didn't work/were bugged in a way that couldn't be fixed (AFAIK), and so were never added.




Its due to the way Defense fundamentally works in Terraria. Ahem, uhh . . .

Lets take offensive builds scenarios, for instance:

1. If you fight Skeletron Prime with "500 DPS", and it takes you five minutes to beat him (after dodging/missing/etc is accounted for), then that's that. Five minutes is a substantial amount of time to continue to have to fight him, with the inherent risks that come with a boss fight.
2. Now, if you equip so much gear that you double your DPS? The boss fight is now 2.5 minutes long instead of 5. This is a huge improvement, sure, but its still substantial. That is still a non-negligible amount of time fighting Skeletron Prime, with all the risks inherent to that.
3. Now, lets say you go all the way and quintuple your DPS. The fight is STILL 1 full minute long. And so, while it grows ever shorter, the fight itself is still offering a proportional threat/time investment. Until you absolutely wipe the floor with them in seconds (which usually comes far later in the game, after multiple boss tiers), increasing your DPS is always a modifying factor on the boss fight, but it does not completely eliminate them as a threat.

Now lets look at defensive builds.
1. You fight Skeletron Prime (or any other boss, it doesn't really matter), and you have 50 Defense. And for the sake of argument, lets say that his attacks do 50 damage. This is normal mode, so your defense cuts that damage by half. Okay, cool, he's doing 25 damage to you per hit. That's a substantial chunk of damage still.
2. Now lets say you've finagled up a build with 80 Defense. His 50 damage attacks are now dealing about 10 damage per hit. That's pretty low, but its not nothing, so, okay, we're still in the clear here. You can't utterly face tank him, you might still die.
3. From here on, its all downhill. You keep stacking defensive benefits, and once you hit 100 Defense, his damage is completely nullified (down to a minimum of 1 damage). Even minor inclusion of Healing perks/furniture, plus the occasional potion, is going to be enough to stave off death from 1-damage hits. Once you've gotten enemy/boss damage down to 1, you've won. The enemy is never going to beat you, you've effectively negated their offensive power so far that they are no longer a threat at all (except if they have some sort of inherent time limit, like Skeletron Prime's dawn enrage, which is not the norm).

And so, therein lies the issue with empowering defensive builds. Offensive builds can merely reduce the duration of a fight, applying a sort of "modifier" that reduces, but does not entirely eliminate, a boss's threat. Defensive builds, as a result of the fundamental design of the Defense stat in Terraria, which cannot be changed at this point, have the potential ability to COMPLETELY nullify a boss's threat value to the minimum damage of 1.

And don't get me wrong: this is already possible. Throughout the game, via strategic use of various buffs and accessory combos, there are already a few bosses that can be tanked down to 1 damage, or close to it. Its not a good thing. I'm VERY hesitant to boost defensive combinations, because there are so many permutations and the risk of introducing "tank the boss down to 1" scenarios is a big concern of mine.

Just using a 5-accessory loadout in Normal mode, you can already get a 33 Defense bonus (one of them being Frozen Shield, which gives a Defense reduction bonus AS WELL). Make them all Warding, and then you've got a 53 Defense bonus. And I added 3 Defense to the Hero Shield and +1 each for Flesh Knuckle/Berserker Gloves, so THAT would bring the total to 58 in 1.4.1.

We've got Iron Skin Potion (8), Well Fed Tier 3 (4), Bast Statue (5), and if you are really careful, Dryad's Blessing for another 8, so that's 25 Defense from buffs, bringing our Accessory/Buff Defense combo up to 83 Defense. That's BEFORE armor! And if anything, that makes it worse, because the more we buff Defensive accessories, the more non-defensive classes (Summoners, Mages) can Defense stack until its abusable. Using the above combination, a Stardust Armor wearer could now reach 121 Defense (60 Damage Negation, plus the Frozen Shield bonus). You might argue that Stardust is post-ML, so fine, we'll do Spooky instead, for 30 Defense (113 total).

So I mean, what exactly can I do here? Every single point of extra defense can be accumulated up with all of the others, and once that "1-damage" threshold is reached, its over, bosses cease to exist as any sort of tier-appropriate thread. Someone mentioned making Warding give 6 Defense instead of 4? "Tack on 10 more Defense to the grand total". Make Warding give a % reduction instead of raw damage protection? This is actually a nerf to early game defense, as "-10 damage from a 30 damage hit" is far more potent than "-20% damage from a 30 damage hit". Furthermore, Defense reduction stacking is an equally terrifying beast, with Worm Scarf/Frozen Shield an already powerful combination that works for all classes. When combined with a Paladin Shield-wearer in MP, there are already some substantial "1-damage-boss" scenarios possible.

You mentioned increasing Expert/Master defensive scaling from 75%/100% respectively to 100%/200% respectively. This would actually worsen the issue!

Think about it:

1. Normal Mode: A player gets 50% Defense efficacy, against "100% damage" efficacy from enemies. This is what the basic game balance is designed around.
2. Expert Mode: Enemy damage is doubled to 200% efficacy (a 100% increase), while Player Defense is increased to 75% (a 50% increase). This works, because Expert is MEANT to be harder than Normal mode. If we doubled the player Defense efficacy to 100%, then the scaling is completely even . . . all you are doing is doubling the damage taken and doubling the damage reduced. This doesn't even maintain the status quo, because now the player has a 6th accessory slot to use, so the previous Defensive loadout actually has the addition of Worm Scarf/Celestial Shell, for MORE defense (not to mention another Warding prefix). That 58 Defense from before? We can call that 65/69 (Day/Night) with Warding Celestial Shell, or we could go 62 Defense + 17% Damage Reduction with Worm Scarf. If we maintained the defensive ratio, then this would mean it was actually EASIER to nullify enemy damage in Expert mode.
3. Master Mode: Enemy damage is tripled to 300% efficacy (a 200% increase from Normal) and Player Defense is increased to 100% (a 100% increase from Normal). You propose increasing Player Defense all the way to 200% efficacy . . . this would be way out of proportion. This would actually be a 300% increase in player Defense efficacy, from 50%->200%, which actually leaves enemy damage trailing behind, and it would be even easier than Normal mode to "1-damage" bosses. And of course, we are now talking about 7 Accessory slots, so we are up to 69/73 Accessory Defense + Worm Scarf. A Stardust Armor user would have 107 Defense, and with the proposed 200% defense efficacy, they'd actually be nullifying 214 damage. That's enough to reduce most of Master Moon Lord's attacks down to 1. In Stardust Armor.

So, the ultimate problem here is that boosts to defensive systems are an extremely delicate situation. Every single defense point added is combined with an ever growing tally of assembled defensive boosts, with an ever looming "critical mass threshold" where bosses become non-threats due to dealing 1 damage. Furthermore, the actual amount of defense available to ALL classes is relatively huge, which means that too many missteps here will result in Rangers, or even Mages and Summoners, being able to facetank enemies with the right loadouts. There are combinations where this is already possible, with certain classes/bosses. I dare not make that problem worse.

This is not a system that can be reworked. Not now. I've made some pretty significant changes, but I'm in no position to tear down the entire structure of Terraria's defensive systems and rework them from scratch. Not only do I not doubt it would be denied outright, I'm simply in no position to attempt to account for 20 bosses across 3 difficulties and 4 different classes. The sheer amount of rebalancing required would be phenomenal . . . I'd have to review/adjust every single piece of armor and every single defensive accessory in the game. Hundreds of items, dozens of bosses, multiple difficulties . . . the scale of that is tremendous, and I wouldn't really have much of an opportunity for second chances. Realistically, a better system from the start might have been a Damage Reduction % system with decreasing benefits, so that even the mightiest of tanks couldn't nullify damage, but that ship sailed in 2011. I can't bring it back now.

The best I've been able to do was give some % damage reduction bonuses to some of the Melee armors in 1.4, and a handful of minor defensive accessory boosts for 1.4.1, which have already been elaborated on. I honestly haven't had the time to thoroughly investigate the already-existing Defense stacking implications, which I know exist. The echoing repercussions of massive buffs to this system would take too long to evaluate, and I'd probably have to make corresponding counter-nerfs to other items or bosses to account for it, which really negates the point of such buffs in the first place.

tl;dr - Defense is a fickle, slippery slope that is eternally threatening to reach critical mass and undermine all the danger of bosses, and so even minor buffs to Defensive build potential could wreck everything.

Ah, thank you for your answers! It's a shame the furniture thing couldn't be changed, the little prat had it coming. -_-

The defense thing is quite extensive and the amount of rework that would be required is actually insane to think about, but I guess that's what mods are for. However, nothing can be perfect and even if we don't let on a lot we appreciate the amount of effort that you guys put into this game more than we mention, and every small detail that you guys add is amazing, and we will never take anything you all do for us for granted. Thanks for staying awesome. <3
 
About the Horseshoe re-tiering.
Will it be also fishable in Golden Crates? Or just Golden Chests .. cause that's what worrying me as there was no mention about it being in Golden Crates.

Cause to be honest Fledling Wings suck compared to Horseshoe Balloon + Rocket Boots.
And some of us would still like to be able to get the Horseshoe for its tinkers rather easily like before via fishing.

Also a fishing alternative for Pyramid loot would also be nice too..
 
A new suggestion regarding pearl/luck potions. IME the black and pink pearls are rare enough that you cant really talk about a "supply" -- so the rarity of a Luck II or Luck III potion is completely out of sight for its comparative advantage. With full kit and a good slot, I generally get 20-odd oysters a night, and I don't think I've seen a black pearl yet in my current game.. The odds could be eased there, but another option is to let players craft 2 or 3 Luck potions into one of the next tier.
 
About the Horseshoe re-tiering.
Will it be also fishable in Golden Crates? Or just Golden Chests .. cause that's what worrying me as there was no mention about it being in Golden Crates.

Cause to be honest Fledling Wings suck compared to Horseshoe Balloon + Rocket Boots.
And some of us would still like to be able to get the Horseshoe for its tinkers rather easily like before via fishing.

Also a fishing alternative for Pyramid loot would also be nice too..

Firstly, please don't start up the Pyramid loot thing again. The only thing that's taken up this thread more than that one is the Reaver Shark.

And speaking of said loot and the Horseshoe, is it really necessary? The devs have stated that Pyramid loot will not come into fishing loot. And, to be honest, I agree with them. Why do so many people insist that everything must be available in a single world? Sometimes you get hit by the RNG, new players won't even know that said item exists, experienced players will know they can just get it from another world. Are you seriously going to dilute the fishing loot table even more which is something that is already so luck based just so you can perform what is IMO the most mundane and boring task in the entire game? That's the way Terraria is made; every playthrough you have is a fresh experience and you'll see and learn new things you've never seen before, which starts off with a brand new world. Why can't you just go to another world and get one from there which is so much easier than fishing?

And speaking of the horseshoe specifically, you cannot possibly be saying that you'd rather fish than go through the 500 golden chests in your world which are way easier to find and collect the loot from rather han getting bait and sitting on a chair for an hour fishing up salmon and crates?

no I don't know the average amount of chests in a large world deal with it boohoo cracker
 
The issue is that, again, forcing melee into close quarters all the time does just that, make it unviable. Especially in Expert or Master Mode where enemies hit that much harder.
I don't believe that removing projectiles, that are essentially just ranged/mage weapons with an extra hitbox up close, would make the class unviable. Sure you might not use swords specifically against certain bosses, but not using a specific weapons for certain boss battles isn't unheard of. I don't think i mentioned this lasts time, but i think swords should get buffed in other ways to compensate for their lack of range, and flails, boomerangs, spears, and maybe even yoyos should get buffed too since the class isn't especially good.

My problem with projectile swords is that there is practically no difference in play style between it and say a ranger. I really don't like it when different classes play the same way because then you're basically having the same experience no matter what class playthrough you are trying to do. It especially bothers me because projectile swords are generally so much better than unique weapons of the class like flails, yoyos, and boomerangs.

If you kept it so Melee’s only options to attack with distance had such low DPS, and the only way to pull good damage were to facetank, then Melee would become essentially useless. Nobody would want to spend the entire battle either hugging the boss’ face or have no DPS the entire time.
The melee class without projectiles still have range, albeit less of it, so of course you're not going to facetank, instead you'll use yoyos, boomerangs, or flails to attack at a distance, then if the boss gets up close you'll use swords. Now this isn't a super viable strategy rn because yoyos, boomerangs, and flails generally need a buff, but if ythey would buff them then melee could easily be viable without having the same playstyle as mage and ranger.

Melee already does this anyway, but to a lesser extreme, where it’s slightly weaker than Ranged or Magic at distance but much stronger if you get in close quarters, which you can’t always do. The way this is set now keeps Melee viable while also encouraging fighting closer, and I think hurting Melee’s projectile options even more is a terrible plan.
This is exactly the problem "slightly weaker than Ranged or Magic at distance" these classes should be differentiated enough that such comparisons should be meaningless. Having melee be lower dps ranged/mage is what makes all three classes feel the same sometimes.
Melee’s “ranged” weapons are still less ranged than ranged or magic weapons anyway. Boomerangs only fly so far before returning, Vampire or Shadowflame Knives or Daybreak, etc. taper off quickly. Terra Blade and Influx Waver’s projectiles are noticably slower than Ranged projectiles, etc.
They should be less ranged than the classes that are meant to be ranged, that's the whole point of melee.
Finally, if you took away Melee’s projectiles, it would simply lack the magic of Ranged, Mage or Summoner in the late game. For example, Mage goes from shooting regular bolts to having giant lasers and spitting hurricanes, Summoner goes from having a lame bird or hornet to commanding an army of glowing bats, and Ranged just flat out appeals to your power fantasies.

Taking away or weakening high range options from Melee would not only make the class terrible, it would also make it less interesting. Balance and viability matter much more than technical accuracy. I think melee is fine exactly as it is right now, and honestly could afford to be slightly stronger if anything.
There are cool and extreme melee weapons already that don't act like ranged or magic weapons like the captain america's shield or flairion. This is a non-issue

I think you're dead wrong about interesting, melee's unique playstyle is what makes it interesting, not its mimicry of ranged.
But i do agree with making melee stronger.
 
I don't believe that removing projectiles, that are essentially just ranged/mage weapons with an extra hitbox up close, would make the class unviable. Sure you might not use swords specifically against certain bosses, but not using a specific weapons for certain boss battles isn't unheard of. I don't think i mentioned this lasts time, but i think swords should get buffed in other ways to compensate for their lack of range, and flails, boomerangs, spears, and maybe even yoyos should get buffed too since the class isn't especially good.

My problem with projectile swords is that there is practically no difference in play style between it and say a ranger. I really don't like it when different classes play the same way because then you're basically having the same experience no matter what class playthrough you are trying to do. It especially bothers me because projectile swords are generally so much better than unique weapons of the class like flails, yoyos, and boomerangs.


The melee class without projectiles still have range, albeit less of it, so of course you're not going to facetank, instead you'll use yoyos, boomerangs, or flails to attack at a distance, then if the boss gets up close you'll use swords. Now this isn't a super viable strategy rn because yoyos, boomerangs, and flails generally need a buff, but if ythey would buff them then melee could easily be viable without having the same playstyle as mage and ranger.


This is exactly the problem "slightly weaker than Ranged or Magic at distance" these classes should be differentiated enough that such comparisons should be meaningless. Having melee be lower dps ranged/mage is what makes all three classes feel the same sometimes.

They should be less ranged than the classes that are meant to be ranged, that's the whole point of melee.

There are cool and extreme melee weapons already that don't act like ranged or magic weapons like the captain america's shield or flairion. This is a non-issue

I think you're dead wrong about interesting, melee's unique playstyle is what makes it interesting, not its mimicry of ranged.
But i do agree with making melee stronger.

If we removed projectiles from some melee weapons and made them close ranged and then changed up the other longer ranged options, we’ve gotten nowhere. Now, melee is still attacking the exact same way as before, playing from a but with different weapons. There’s really not a point, especially with how long melee has been the way it is.

Giving swords projectiles makes an interesting dual strategy where you can attack safely or at close to different effects. Stealing the ranged ability from these weapons would make them considered unviable even if they had significant close ranged buffs, and people would just end up using longer ranged choices instead. This would just make the classes feel even less separate, as then you lose a whole part of the dual strategy, going against your entire argument.

Anyway, melee already feels separate enough from the other classes anyway. Ranged offers you much more wiggle room than melee or magic, and has an interesting concept of mixing up weapons and ammo to create your own effects that no other class has. Magic makes you play defensively, forcing you to work around mana and avoid taking hits and compensating with extreme DPS output and easy to use weapons. Summoner is a whole other level of unique. Comparatively, Melee’s strategy is to utilize the high defense offered to either play aggressively and offensively, or to have extreme survivability at the cost of damage output. The strategies for the classes are already different enough without completely changing things up.

Lastly, there’s a pretty big deviation between “flail that spits bubbles” and “enchanted blade from an alien race that launches clones of itsef”. Melee would still have unique options, but the swords, in my opinion, are half of what make melee feel truly awesome.

I really fail to see the point in changing melee in such a vast way. Melee is already a unique playstyle, and the way Terraria does it is incredibly unique compared to other games and actually a lot of fun. I feel like taking away this flair of melee would not only make melee feel less interesting but would make it feel like a copy of other games’ melee, going against half the point of Terraria. It’s a common argument that melee should be more melee, but for this reason I strongly disagree.
 
May I suggest something to Fairy Boots and Hellfire Threads?
Their combiantions are totally useless, why they were even created? Flower and Fairy Boots grass no longer spawn, why not change it similary to Flame Walker Boots/Hellfire Threads?
There should be changes to them, let me list them:

  • Hellfire Threads:
    • Erease the worn sprite, making it invisible. (note that worn Fire walker Boots and Hellfire Thread are a lot similiar in appearace)
    • Change recipe ingredient Obsidian Walking boots to Obsidian Horseshoe. It will make it easier to obtain/craft them. There is no is my opinion a true pupose to combine them.
  • Fairy Boots:
    • Erease the worn sprite, making it invisible.
    • No longer spawn grass, but I have in the mind will make it more interestring amd more visually interestring as Fire Walking Boots,
      • Leaves trail of flowers behind you when when walking on any grass type blocks like with Fire walking Boots
        • Type of flowers changes based on which type of grass block you are walking on.
      • Leaves a trail of moss on the moss blocks and moss bricks, same expaination as for on grass block.
        • (would be cool, but I am not sure about it, moss isn't a flower or am I right now wrong?)
    • Change recipe ingredient Spectre Boots to Anglet, it will make more sense why they wouldn't appear on player character as sprite.
    • Change a name possibly to Fairy Shoelace or something totally different?

NOTE to changes above: By ereasing image I don't mean deleting their images. I disovered whe you dye any shoe/boots type accessories in vanity slot it will even dye parlicles like from Terraspack Boots.
I don't take "make a texture pack for it" as "good" asnwer, even I don't play multiplayer, I still would be very picky about my apperiance. They will not notice anything unless they have same aplied texture pack as mine.
Some might find changes to recipes huge neft, but keep in the mind that that these are propably accessories that players don't even want to craft because their combination is bad. You will likely craft terraspark Boots instead for their speed boost and function.
Noter that Fossil amor got neft in 1.4 beacuse progresion of getting this armor was changed, so shopuldn't be such a big suprise.




Here something different.
I am not why in 1.4 they will balance out content of Crimson and Corruption, they still not that balanced and their content filled out. (this one might rather sound like suggestion, but what am I suppored to do? look at it as it's nothing?)
  • Make crafteable Demonite type spear,
    • note that Crimson heart can drop The rotten Fork and you can craft The Meatball from Crimtane Bars. In corruption word Shadow Orb can drop but you can't craft demonite type spear.
  • Toxic Carp should be fished from Jungle and replaced in Corruption with melee type weapon that with very small AoE infict Cursed Flame debuff.
    • Jungle is the place when you can craft weapon that can infict poison debuff, so it isn't that out of place (in my opinion) and corruption needs a weapon that can trully rival a Bladetongue as melee weapon.
  • You can fish up corruption type fish to make heartreach potion, and different type of Purple Clubber Fish for crimson.
    • This one Isn't that neccesary but wouldn't be so bad
  • One type of enemy should drop Crimson themed Worm Tooth to craft Unholy Arrows and Thorns Potion
    • Merchant now sells Unholy Arrows instead of Arms Dealer. Note that Arms Dealer sells guns and bullet.

It still true that Coruption and Crimson content isn't balanced, Crimson
is/should be a little bit more powerfull and IO don¨t know which one is better or not.

Changes to armors:
  • Change Crimson armor to melee type armor,
    • Regeneration is in armors in terraria more associated to melee class.
    • It's true that Nebula armor can give you regeneration buff, but nebula (mage) armor is suppored to buff armor in multiplayer if I am not mistaken.
  • Change Molten armor to neutral/jack of all trades armor.
    • note that obtaining Molten armor require extra step than for Shadow/Crimson, Jungle and Necro armor, it will make more suitable why is it neutral armor.
  • Change Meteorite armor to neutral
    • Set bonus change: Greatly reduces mana cost of suing Space Gun, Gray/Orange Zapinator and meteorite Staff, PhaseBlades/Sabers now shoots very smal range beam, 10-15% chance to to consume star using Star Cannon/Super Star Shotter.
Thats for armors, but I am not still sure about meteorite armor change it could be another summoner armor.
Sorry for long post,..
 
Firstly, please don't start up the Pyramid loot thing again. The only thing that's taken up this thread more than that one is the Reaver Shark.

And speaking of said loot and the Horseshoe, is it really necessary? The devs have stated that Pyramid loot will not come into fishing loot. And, to be honest, I agree with them. Why do so many people insist that everything must be available in a single world? Sometimes you get hit by the RNG, new players won't even know that said item exists, experienced players will know they can just get it from another world. Are you seriously going to dilute the fishing loot table even more which is something that is already so luck based just so you can perform what is IMO the most mundane and boring task in the entire game? That's the way Terraria is made; every playthrough you have is a fresh experience and you'll see and learn new things you've never seen before, which starts off with a brand new world. Why can't you just go to another world and get one from there which is so much easier than fishing?

And speaking of the horseshoe specifically, you cannot possibly be saying that you'd rather fish than go through the 500 golden chests in your world which are way easier to find and collect the loot from rather han getting bait and sitting on a chair for an hour fishing up salmon and crates?

no I don't know the average amount of chests in a large world deal with it boohoo cracker

Again? What you on about its like the FIRST time i mentioned this here or anywhere else...

And yes i rather fish for the Horseshoe than search for it in Golden Chests of which loot pools is already quite dilluted with a lot of various items.
If my luck is crap ill have to grind for it for hours instead minutes like before as

1. Sky Chests are a lot easier to locate
2. Their loot pool is quite small giving better odds of getting what i want even from fishing Sky Crates.
3. Yes i rather fish of Golden Crates for an hour rather than search for golden chests and pray they have what i want in their already heavily dilluted loot pool for several hours straight. (I usually do fishing anyways since its still the most reliable and safe way of getting certain things and ores both in prehardmode and hardmode , thats especially useful for someone who plays on mediumcore / hardcore difficulties.)

So yes since they clearly made the Horseshoe a lot more annoying to find than it is now. I would like if there was still an alternative way of obtaining Horseshoes in 1.4.1 like we have now in 1.4.0 ....... Whatever that method might be. (Fishing method is what makes the most sense to me.)
Is thats so bad? :/

PS: bait is really easy to come by and crate / fishing potions are easy to create.
Despite your biased opinion against fishing is still the most effective method of skipping some of the searching / grinding for certain items and ores.
 
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On the topic of Angler rewards:
2. We are aware of this, but changing it was denied.
This bites, a lot.
I forgot to mention it here a long while ago, but I was doing fishing quests in Journey Mode for the sake of completion, and because I wanted to build a cute beachside house. The only thing I needed was a Seaweed Planter.
And so I sat there for hours, using all the Journey Mode timeskips, completing what I was certain was at least 200 quests. Getting nothing but Golden Bug Nets and Fishing Rods in a row, accessories, all the rare rewards. Not one single Seaweed Planter.
I should also note that during a Master Mode run with two other friends, all of us were doing our fishing quests daily, and not one of us got a Seaweed Planter either.
In both runs, I was so far into the fishing quests that I had cemented myself in rare rewards almost entirely. And I was very much not in the mood to repeat the "early" quests on a new character.

For a quest system with a huge pool of rewards, RNG deciding almost every reward, and only one reward every 24 minutes at minimum; this is very frustrating.
I genuinely want to know why remedying this problem was denied. Because the reward system as-is is fundamentally flawed and will rarely give builders what they want, unless they are incredibly lucky.
I'm not asking for every reward to be guaranteed, by the way. I know that's how it's designed. I just wish you weren't practically locked out of decorative rewards after the first 50 quests or so.
 
On the topic of Angler rewards:

This bites, a lot.
I forgot to mention it here a long while ago, but I was doing fishing quests in Journey Mode for the sake of completion, and because I wanted to build a cute beachside house. The only thing I needed was a Seaweed Planter.
And so I sat there for hours, using all the Journey Mode timeskips, completing what I was certain was at least 200 quests. Getting nothing but Golden Bug Nets and Fishing Rods in a row, accessories, all the rare rewards. Not one single Seaweed Planter.
I should also note that during a Master Mode run with two other friends, all of us were doing our fishing quests daily, and not one of us got a Seaweed Planter either.
In both runs, I was so far into the fishing quests that I had cemented myself in rare rewards almost entirely. And I was very much not in the mood to repeat the "early" quests on a new character.

For a quest system with a huge pool of rewards, RNG deciding almost every reward, and only one reward every 24 minutes at minimum; this is very frustrating.
I genuinely want to know why remedying this problem was denied. Because the reward system as-is is fundamentally flawed and will rarely give builders what they want, unless they are incredibly lucky.
I'm not asking for every reward to be guaranteed, by the way. I know that's how it's designed. I just wish you weren't practically locked out of decorative rewards after the first 50 quests or so.

Yea it does bites..
The fact that these decorations are locked behind insane amount of RNG and on top of that your chance of getting them diminishes the more you do the quests is just pure bull crap. Only real way of obtaining those is by item editors / item servers instead grinding days and weeks or even months if your luck is like mine for a chance to get them. And good frickin luck getting few of them for your builds if you arent playing on Journey mode..

I'd also like the know what the "reasoning" was for denying any requests of changing / improving this.
As AVGN would put it "What were they thinking!?"
 
Again? What you on about its like the FIRST time i mentioned this here or anywhere else...

And yes i rather fish for the Horseshoe than search for it in Golden Chests of which loot pools is already quite dilluted with a lot of various items.
If my luck is crap ill have to grind for it for hours instead minutes like before as

1. Sky Chests are a lot easier to locate
2. Their loot pool is quite small giving better odds of getting what i want even from fishing Sky Crates.
3. Yes i rather fish of Golden Crates for an hour rather than search for golden chests and pray they have what i want in their already heavily dilluted loot pool for several hours straight. (I usually do fishing anyways since its still the most reliable and safe way of getting certain things and ores both in prehardmode and hardmode , thats especially useful for someone who plays on mediumcore / hardcore difficulties.)

So yes since they clearly made the Horseshoe a lot more annoying to find than it is now. I would like if there was still an alternative way of obtaining Horseshoes in 1.4.1 like we have now in 1.4.0 ....... Whatever that method might be. (Fishing method is what makes the most sense to me.)
Is thats so bad? :/

PS: bait is really easy to come by and crate / fishing potions are easy to create.
Despite your biased opinion against fishing is still the most effective method of skipping some of the searching / grinding for certain items and ores.
The fact that horseshoe was a possible loot from Sky Crates seems to indicate that it is still possible to obtain it from wooden crates, otherwise it would be an anti-renewable items decision, which is not what's usually the case in Terraria. Since there weren't any notes on Sky Crates changing it drop pool, I can assume it was just not mentioned at all. Regardless, I doubt it will be THAT hard to find a horseshoe, you probably gonna be able to find it much earlier in the game.
 
The fact that horseshoe was a possible loot from Sky Crates seems to indicate that it is still possible to obtain it from wooden crates, otherwise it would be an anti-renewable items decision, which is not what's usually the case in Terraria. Since there weren't any notes on Sky Crates changing it drop pool, I can assume it was just not mentioned at all. Regardless, I doubt it will be THAT hard to find a horseshoe, you probably gonna be able to find it much earlier in the game.

If that was the case (adding it to Wooden Crates pool as it never was in Wooden Crates or Gold Crates like ever.. Or leaving it in Sky Crates) they would have mentioned it in the same info regarding Horseshoe being tier-swapped.

So big X DOUBT on that one.

PS: If you think Horeshoe would be easier to find just cause its added to Golden Chests than if it was still in Sky Chests / Crates (which are easier to find and have much smaller loot pool so you have better chances to get what you want.) You are wrong .. like dead fricking wrong.
Case in point : Lava Charm (before 1.4)

Spending countless hours to find one was so much fun...
Before lava fishing crates were introduced which helped greatly with recieving this item despite what some might say.
And now Lava Charm drop chances will be buffed in 1.4.1 which i am even more happy about..

What i am not happy about is the fact that Horseshoe will be as annoying to find now as Lava Charm before all these changes as there doesn't seem to be any mention of alternative (preferably fishing way) of recieving it. Just Gold Chests RNG.
 
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If that was the case (adding it to Wooden Crates pool as it never was in Wooden Crates or Gold Crates like ever.. Or leaving it in Sky Crates) they would have mentioned it in the same info regarding Horseshoe being tier-swapped.

So big X DOUBT on that one.

PS: If you think Horeshoe would be easier to find just cause its added to Golden Chests than if it was still in Sky Chests / Crates (which are easier to find and have much smaller loot pool so you have better chances to get what you want.) You are wrong .. like dead fricking wrong.
Case in point : Lava Charm (before 1.4)

Spending countless hours to find one was so much fun...
Before lava fishing crates were introduced which helped greatly with recieving this item despite what some might say.
And now Lava Charm drop chances will be buffed in 1.4.1 which i am even more happy about..

What i am not happy about is the fact that Horseshoe will be as annoying to find now as Lava Charm before all these changes as there doesn't seem to be any mention of alternative (preferably fishing way) of recieving it. Just Gold Chests RNG.
Bro, u do realize that u can get the horseshoe out of ALL golden chests, rather than ones that are just in the lava layer, right? They’re not gonna be more rare than lava charms, not the lava charms before and not the new percentages. The horseshoe isn’t gonna be hard to find. One extra drop on a gold chest isn’t gonna kill u. I’m sure you’ll find it after 15 gold chests MAX. And I’m talking if you had really bad luck.
 
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