Other Non binary gender option

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Terkaza

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It would be interesting to be inclusive. I'm not an enby myself but still I think a lot of nb folks playing Terraria would like this option.
You might wanna say "it's too hard to add all the sprites and animations in between male and female", but someone has suggested to use Vector Graphics for that matter, and maybe just work the feature for like 3 "in betweens" male and female. It would allow the player in character customization to slide between the male and female options (and also for any armor). I hope it can be taken into account and that you will find the time to work on it.
 
It would be interesting to be inclusive. I'm not an enby myself but still I think a lot of nb folks playing Terraria would like this option.
You might wanna say "it's too hard to add all the sprites and animations in between male and female", but someone has suggested to use Vector Graphics for that matter, and maybe just work the feature for like 3 "in betweens" male and female. It would allow the player in character customization to slide between the male and female options (and also for any armor). I hope it can be taken into account and that you will find the time to work on it.
The thing is, it's a silly video game. Another thing is that the only real thing that changes between genders is the sound you make when you are hurt, and some armor sprites. The gender change potion also exists in the game. I get what you are saying, but ultimately it would just increase the workload on the devs over a tiny little feature that a good majority of the fanbase probably won't use.
 
Catering to the non-binary crowd should be done in a subtle way, such that people who are binary don’t feel like some sort of gender-related agenda is being shoved down their throats. A “gender slider” would be the opposite of that. It would make it look like Re-Logic is trying too hard to be gender-inclusive, when in reality it’s just a video game and it’s not their job to make any statements about that.

I wouldn’t mind adding a hidden setting in config.json allowing players to change the pitch of their hurt sound, but anything beyond that would be excessive.
 
Fun fact: Cyberpunk 2077 is apparently giving you these options during character creation. I like the idea there, because it suits the game's setting.
But for Terraria, we're talking about tiny sprites here. It's already very difficult to make out if a character is male or female, depending on the hair you pick.
I don't see a point to this. And I also share some of the worries Baconfry mentions. I'd also feel this would be forced, and that generally creates negativity among many people.

If they'd choose to implement such a thing, then I think it's better if they kept the choices at male/female, but with additional body types. E.g. choosing a female character and choosing thinner or thicker legs, and giving alternative voice options. Kinda like Saints Row 3, if you know it.

Would be nice to have an alien character.
Other than the sounds, aliens are easily created, either by giving your character out-of-this-world colour schemes or by wearing a vanity outfit. :)
Unless you're talking about having 6 arms, 4 eyes, two heads, claws, horns, that sort of thing. Yeah, that'll be a problem.
 
While I like the idea of inclusivity, this is usually the kind of feature that's best added at the beginning of a game's development. Creating new hit sounds is easy, but consider that loads of things in coding work in base 2 - design is most efficient when fitting things into the 2-exponent that leaves the least space left over. That's a bit abstract, so to be more specific, games which use 2 genders often use workarounds like 'is player male' where false = female instead of asking 'is player male' -> no -> 'is player female' to save time. Adding a third gender onto a two-gender system is a lot more complex a workload than just adding new sprites (and redrawing all armor/accessories, which is still a pretty heavy workload, mind.)
 
I don't understand how this has anything to do with inclusivity at all.

Inclusivity means that people of a minority group are represented in a context which either is, or is representative of, real life, for example on forms and questionnaires (when asked for their gender, for instance), in advertisements, in the job market (for example not rejecting qualified personnel who are transsexual for the reason that they're transsexual) or in fictional works which take place in a contemporary, culturally comparative setting (so not 1984, for example). The point here is to show that these minorities exist and are part of society, rather than to pretend that they don't and that they're not.

Terraria is not even remotely a representation of society. The characters you make in Terraria are avatars, they don't represent your identity in any meaningful way or form (except the notion that you physically exist, which is a given). To add a non-binary gender option has as much to do with inclusivity as adding more hairstyles or making us able to customise the shape of the character's nose.

Inclusivity is a good thing, and inclusivity 'for the sake of it' is, in my eyes, a good thing as well (as long as it doesn't tread into the realms of positive discrimination). But inclusiveness only makes sense within a certain context, and Terraria falls outside that context. I feel that trying to enforce inclusivity beyond that context (i.e. where it doesn't matter) only serves to cheapen the concept, and to give the false impression that we, as a society, are improving far more quickly than we actually are - or should be.
 
The thing is, it's a silly video game. Another thing is that the only real thing that changes between genders is the sound you make when you are hurt, and some armor sprites. The gender change potion also exists in the game. I get what you are saying, but ultimately it would just increase the workload on the devs over a tiny little feature that a good majority of the fanbase probably won't use.

Catering to the non-binary crowd should be done in a subtle way, such that people who are binary don’t feel like some sort of gender-related agenda is being shoved down their throats. A “gender slider” would be the opposite of that. It would make it look like Re-Logic is trying too hard to be gender-inclusive, when in reality it’s just a video game and it’s not their job to make any statements about that.

I wouldn’t mind adding a hidden setting in config.json allowing players to change the pitch of their hurt sound, but anything beyond that would be excessive.

Fun fact: Cyberpunk 2077 is apparently giving you these options during character creation. I like the idea there, because it suits the game's setting.
But for Terraria, we're talking about tiny sprites here. It's already very difficult to make out if a character is male or female, depending on the hair you pick.
I don't see a point to this. And I also share some of the worries Baconfry mentions. I'd also feel this would be forced, and that generally creates negativity among many people.

If they'd choose to implement such a thing, then I think it's better if they kept the choices at male/female, but with additional body types. E.g. choosing a female character and choosing thinner or thicker legs, and giving alternative voice options. Kinda like Saints Row 3, if you know it.


Other than the sounds, aliens are easily created, either by giving your character out-of-this-world colour schemes or by wearing a vanity outfit. :)
Unless you're talking about having 6 arms, 4 eyes, two heads, claws, horns, that sort of thing. Yeah, that'll be a problem.

I don't understand how this has anything to do with inclusivity at all.

Inclusivity means that people of a minority group are represented in a context which either is, or is representative of, real life, for example on forms and questionnaires (when asked for their gender, for instance), in advertisements, in the job market (for example not rejecting qualified personnel who are transsexual for the reason that they're transsexual) or in fictional works which take place in a contemporary, culturally comparative setting (so not 1984, for example). The point here is to show that these minorities exist and are part of society, rather than to pretend that they don't and that they're not.

Terraria is not even remotely a representation of society. The characters you make in Terraria are avatars, they don't represent your identity in any meaningful way or form (except the notion that you physically exist, which is a given). To add a non-binary gender option has as much to do with inclusivity as adding more hairstyles or making us able to customise the shape of the character's nose.

Inclusivity is a good thing, and inclusivity 'for the sake of it' is, in my eyes, a good thing as well (as long as it doesn't tread into the realms of positive discrimination). But inclusiveness only makes sense within a certain context, and Terraria falls outside that context. I feel that trying to enforce inclusivity beyond that context (i.e. where it doesn't matter) only serves to cheapen the concept, and to give the false impression that we, as a society, are improving far more quickly than we actually are - or should be.

Woops kinda left this without expecting answers
I totally get the work overload thing, and that there aren't enough gendered things in the game to justify it
The point isn't to shove enbies into the game, it's so that someone that isn't male or female doesn't have to select male or female against their will because they have no other choice, think about how annoying it is to try a game and you can't choose yourself as the main character when presented the options.
Maybe literally just a character option of being non binary, but still choosing the already existing appearances would be enough. Just a hidden config that doesn't impact gameplay, and it's super simple to do. Obviously the best thing in the first place would be to not even consider gender in sprites and animations and outfits but let's say it's unlikely to happen
If the enby option had the access to both male and female appearance to make combinations for example. No need to add in betweens, just reuse the existing options
 
Woops kinda left this without expecting answers
I totally get the work overload thing, and that there aren't enough gendered things in the game to justify it
The point isn't to shove enbies into the game, it's so that someone that isn't male or female doesn't have to select male or female against their will because they have no other choice, think about how annoying it is to try a game and you can't choose yourself as the main character when presented the options.
Maybe literally just a character option of being non binary, but still choosing the already existing appearances would be enough. Just a hidden config that doesn't impact gameplay, and it's super simple to do. Obviously the best thing in the first place would be to not even consider gender in sprites and animations and outfits but let's say it's unlikely to happen
If the enby option had the access to both male and female appearance to make combinations for example. No need to add in betweens, just reuse the existing options
Why would I want to choose myself as the main character? Games aren't about us, they're about a fictional character. I've seen it argued that of course someone who is used to seeing themselves represented in most games would be blind to the problem, but I can't say I've seen many protagonists who remind me of myself at all.
 
Why would I want to choose myself as the main character? Games aren't about us, they're about a fictional character. I've seen it argued that of course someone who is used to seeing themselves represented in most games would be blind to the problem, but I can't say I've seen many protagonists who remind me of myself at all.
While normally I wholeheartedly agree with everything you post, I think there's a bit of perspective lost here. Everyone has their own playstyle, and especially for a game like Terraria where there is no set protagonist... well. You create your own avatar from whole cloth. They have no professed personality to compare or contrast yourself with. Some people like to create characters and build their own stories as they traverse the world. Some people like to copy other characters and roleplay as them. Some people like to build themselves and play as their avatar. And some people just don't pay any attention to this aspect at all. It's not usually a deliberate choice.

Point is, the less fleshed out a protagonist is, the more room there is for the player to project themselves onto them, and Terraria's is a complete blank slate. So even if that isn't how you play, many people use chargen as an opportunity to make themselves, and I can see why people would ask for ways to make that character closer to what they want it to be. And it's not a knock against anyone's creativity if that's how they default to playing a game.

That said...

Maybe literally just a character option of being non binary, but still choosing the already existing appearances would be enough. Just a hidden config that doesn't impact gameplay, and it's super simple to do. Obviously the best thing in the first place would be to not even consider gender in sprites and animations and outfits but let's say it's unlikely to happen
If the enby option had the access to both male and female appearance to make combinations for example. No need to add in betweens, just reuse the existing options
If the option does literally nothing to change how the character looks or sounds, then I don't see why people can't just select male or female and then just envision their character as nonbinary. While nb options are growing more common, especially in indie games, this is what has to be done in maybe 95% of game situations anyway. It's the same flexibility of imagination that lets you do... well, anything that isn't explicitly codified in the game itself. Playing Terraria and saying 'my character is nonbinary' is the same leap of logic as saying 'my character was an ordinary teenager and woke up in Terraria one day with no idea how he got there', 'my character is the girlfriend of the Steampunker', or 'my character is the prophesied guardian of the planet and the only thing the Corruption fears.'

And that's partly because a vanishingly low percentage of people are actually hermaphroditic. Gender is a mental attribute, not a physical one. I don't want to get into semantics or present the idea that I'm knocking the validity of gender identity in any way - it's immensely well-documented that gender identity doesn't always line up with biological sex, and it's nobody else's business how people choose to see themselves. If you feel dysphoric about your birth sex, nobody should force you into that role; if you don't identify with either sex, give me some pronouns and I'll use them. But... Maybe I'm just speaking as someone who's never struggled with this, but when I look at the ability to make a character nonbinary, I view it from the same vantage as making a character trans, or lesbian, or shy, or an avid collector of plush rabbits. It's a who, not a what - a character trait, and Terraria has none of those whatsoever. No venue for expression of them, no room for them to affect gameplay. So bringing it up at all is more of an inclusivity thing than anything that actually expands or adds to the game, and sometimes that's worthwhile anyway - but then it's a pure cost/effectiveness thing.
It's like... consider that Terraria has skin sliders, and if it didn't and the game generated every character with the same pale peach skintone, I'd be advocating for increased customization with everyone else. But the nice thing about the skin sliders is that they're a catch-all - they grant everyone the exact same freedom of self-insertion (and wild unrealistic customisation) without requiring catering to a specific group (which means you have to provide that same accessibility to everyone.) Imagine the infinitely generating mess if instead of an RBG skin slider, you had a swap list of ethnic features you could add onto the character.

A nonbinary gender option is also a catch-all, at least in theory, but the problem is twofold - it's catering to a much smaller group of people, and it isn't adding a new field, it's altering an existing one which was already designed to work a certain way. Worse, it's a field that's widely referenced. Skintone affects the player sprite and nothing else. Off the top of my head, gender affects the player sprite, hit sounds, the appearance of most armor, vanity, and accessories, and NPC dialogue.

Even if the option was a dummy, it would potentially cause problems for how the game accesses character gender just by existing. Depending on the way Terraria is built, it either adds a clause to any gender reference (which is fine) or requires the entire system to be rewritten.

It's doable, especially if you don't expect a new character model*, but nonbinaries aren't a particularly large group, and the number of nbs who look at a male/female character select screen and become genuinely distressed instead of picking a sex and just envisioning the character as nonbinary is much, much smaller - people with serious stigmas about biological sex. I just don't think there's enough of a demand to merit this for what it would take to implement at this stage.


*I'd think that's an even bigger can of worms, honestly. Throwing the gates wide open for height, weight, and musculature options, and after a nonbinary option, they're difficult to argue against through the lens of inclusivity because they're offering representation to a much wider number of people. The problem with prioritizing things like this is that there's really no empirical way to measure what part of someone's identity is important to them, or what portion of everyone who checks a box cares strongly about the check in that box.
 
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While normally I wholeheartedly agree with everything you post, I think there's a bit of perspective lost here. Everyone has their own playstyle, and especially for a game like Terraria where there is no set protagonist... well. You create your own avatar from whole cloth. They have no professed personality to compare or contrast yourself with. Some people like to create characters and build their own stories as they traverse the world. Some people like to copy other characters and roleplay as them. Some people like to build themselves and play as their avatar. And some people just don't pay any attention to this aspect at all. It's not usually a deliberate choice.

Point is, the less fleshed out a protagonist is, the more room there is for the player to project themselves onto them, and Terraria's is a complete blank slate. So even if that isn't how you play, many people use chargen as an opportunity to make themselves, and I can see why people would ask for ways to make that character closer to what they want it to be. And it's not a knock against anyone's creativity if that's how they default to playing a game.

That said...


If the option does literally nothing to change how the character looks or sounds, then I don't see why people can't just select male or female and then just envision their character as nonbinary. While nb options are growing more common, especially in indie games, this is what has to be done in maybe 95% of game situations anyway. It's the same flexibility of imagination that lets you do... well, anything that isn't explicitly codified in the game itself. Playing Terraria and saying 'my character is nonbinary' is the same leap of logic as saying 'my character was an ordinary teenager and woke up in Terraria one day with no idea how he got there', 'my character is the girlfriend of the Steampunker', or 'my character is the prophesied guardian of the planet and the only thing the Corruption fears.'

And that's partly because a vanishingly low percentage of people are actually hermaphroditic. Gender is a mental attribute, not a physical one. I don't want to get into semantics or present the idea that I'm knocking the validity of gender identity in any way - it's immensely well-documented that gender identity doesn't always line up with biological sex, and it's nobody else's business how people choose to see themselves. If you feel dysphoric about your birth sex, nobody should force you into that role; if you don't identify with either sex, give me some pronouns and I'll use them. But... Maybe I'm just speaking as someone who's never struggled with this, but when I look at the ability to make a character nonbinary, I view it from the same vantage as making a character trans, or lesbian, or shy, or an avid collector of plush rabbits. It's a who, not a what - a character trait, and Terraria has none of those whatsoever. No venue for expression of them, no room for them to affect gameplay. So bringing it up at all is more of an inclusivity thing than anything that actually expands or adds to the game, and sometimes that's worthwhile anyway - but then it's a pure cost/effectiveness thing.
It's like... consider that Terraria has skin sliders, and if it didn't and the game generated every character with the same pale peach skintone, I'd be advocating for increased customization with everyone else. But the nice thing about the skin sliders is that they're a catch-all - they grant everyone the exact same freedom of self-insertion (and wild unrealistic customisation) without requiring catering to a specific group (which means you have to provide that same accessibility to everyone.) Imagine the infinitely generating mess if instead of an RBG skin slider, you had a swap list of ethnic features you could add onto the character.

A nonbinary gender option is also a catch-all, at least in theory, but the problem is twofold - it's catering to a much smaller group of people, and it isn't adding a new field, it's altering an existing one which was already designed to work a certain way. Worse, it's a field that's widely referenced. Skintone affects the player sprite and nothing else. Off the top of my head, gender affects the player sprite, hit sounds, the appearance of most armor, vanity, and accessories, and NPC dialogue.

Even if the option was a dummy, it would potentially cause problems for how the game accesses character gender just by existing. Depending on the way Terraria is built, it either adds a clause to any gender reference (which is fine) or requires the entire system to be rewritten.

It's doable, especially if you don't expect a new character model*, but nonbinaries aren't a particularly large group, and the number of nbs who look at a male/female character select screen and become genuinely distressed instead of picking a sex and just envisioning the character as nonbinary is much, much smaller - people with serious stigmas about biological sex. I just don't think there's enough of a demand to merit this for what it would take to implement at this stage.


*I'd think that's an even bigger can of worms, honestly. Throwing the gates wide open for height, weight, and musculature options, and after a nonbinary option, they're difficult to argue against through the lens of inclusivity because they're offering representation to a much wider number of people. The problem with prioritizing things like this is that there's really no empirical way to measure what part of someone's identity is important to them, or what portion of everyone who checks a box cares strongly about the check in that box.
The point of non binary is that you cannot identify with either male or female. Trans, lesbian etc. affects male or female or non binary people, and sure there would be no point in having them because trans women just choose female from the start for example. Playing Terraria and saying "my character is nonbinary" is the same leap of logic as saying "my character is male/female". Making a character non binary would have the same effects on gameplay as making it male or female, few but if it didnt have any you wouldn't have the option to choose male or female in the first place. Because it has been deemed useful to differentiate male or female in Terraria, the same logic can be applied to differentiating male, female and non binary.
And of course I thought about the "not enough people interested, the majority doesn't care and finds it useless for them so not needed". Surely the game is built only for male and female and not anticipating other gender options, so I understand that it would :red: up some points.
The best case would have been to not propose gender options in the first place. The second best case would have been to build the game so that other genders can easily be added. But yeah, factually at this stage of development it's too late. And the argument about the actual number of people interested is spot on because I think that's the real problem here
 
I vote no. This is incredibly ludicrous and a huge waste of time, money and resources for the devs when all of that can be used for improving the game. Please don't burden the devs with more workloads and nonsense when the game plays just fine as it is, if this were Terraria 2 or a 3D based game, then sure, but Terraria is a 2D sprite based game that's been around for 8 years and it's already tough to differientiate between male and female characters in game, so adding something like gender nonbinary is a waste for no good reason. Just my two cents.
 
Surely the game is built only for male and female and not anticipating other gender options, so I understand that it would :red: up some points.
The best case would have been to not propose gender options in the first place. The second best case would have been to build the game so that other genders can easily be added. But yeah, factually at this stage of development it's too late. And the argument about the actual number of people interested is spot on because I think that's the real problem here

Seeing gender as a spectrum instead of male/female is rather new and in my opinion it is rather complicated. Keeping the choices between male/female does simplify things. And I do wonder what you'd expect, some sort of in-game slider that goes through every supposed gender type that people have come up with? Because apparently there are a lot of them, and I don't expect game developers to dive into this rabbit hole to sort all of this out and come up with some system. I certainly wouldn't. And even if a dev would, if they made mistakes then you can count on it that there'll be a whole bunch of offended people. "Why is my gender not included?" "You got <insert gender here> all wrong!"
I consider it very unfair to even expect this from any developer. They are not psychologists or doctors; they make games.

And really, where would it stop. People born without certain limbs, should they also be included? Parkinson? <insert any minority/condition here>
You can't accommodate everyone, no matter how much you would try.

Anyway, I think it is very unfair to say that "the game is built only for male and female" players. As I think others have pointed out, you don't need to create a character based on yourself, you can be whoever you want. Sure, body-wise, there aren't many choices, but how many games do you know that do?
The ones I know can be counted on one hand. And again, we're talking about tiny sprites here. With a bit of imagination you can get something at least; you can create a male character and slap a dryad outfit on him, or create a female and make her wear a suit. Hair styles are 100% non-gender specific, so you can go nuts with those. Have a woman with a beard, a guy with gorgeous long hair, it's all possible. Genitalia wise, again, tiny sprites. Nothing to see there.
 
Seeing gender as a spectrum instead of male/female is rather new and in my opinion it is rather complicated. Keeping the choices between male/female does simplify things. And I do wonder what you'd expect, some sort of in-game slider that goes through every supposed gender type that people have come up with? Because apparently there are a lot of them, and I don't expect game developers to dive into this rabbit hole to sort all of this out and come up with some system. I certainly wouldn't. And even if a dev would, if they made mistakes then you can count on it that there'll be a whole bunch of offended people. "Why is my gender not included?" "You got <insert gender here> all wrong!"
I consider it very unfair to even expect this from any developer. They are not psychologists or doctors; they make games.

And really, where would it stop. People born without certain limbs, should they also be included? Parkinson? <insert any minority/condition here>
You can't accommodate everyone, no matter how much you would try.

Anyway, I think it is very unfair to say that "the game is built only for male and female" players. As I think others have pointed out, you don't need to create a character based on yourself, you can be whoever you want. Sure, body-wise, there aren't many choices, but how many games do you know that do?
The ones I know can be counted on one hand. And again, we're talking about tiny sprites here. With a bit of imagination you can get something at least; you can create a male character and slap a dryad outfit on him, or create a female and make her wear a suit. Hair styles are 100% non-gender specific, so you can go nuts with those. Have a woman with a beard, a guy with gorgeous long hair, it's all possible. Genitalia wise, again, tiny sprites. Nothing to see there.

You could have stopped at "Don't put it in the game it's too complicated past the initial development stage" instead of being overtly transphobic. I guess I have my answer, I won't reply any further to unsupportive messages.
 
You could have stopped at "Don't put it in the game it's too complicated past the initial development stage" instead of being overtly transphobic. I guess I have my answer, I won't reply any further to unsupportive messages.
That's out of line, you have no right to speak to a respected member like that. If you aren't happy with the reaction to your suggestion ignore it, don't attack people.
 
That's out of line, you have no right to speak to a respected member like that. If you aren't happy with the reaction to your suggestion ignore it, don't attack people.
You're equally out of line, as you so often are. Report and move on - you don't seem to ever get that message.

You could have stopped at "Don't put it in the game it's too complicated past the initial development stage" instead of being overtly transphobic. I guess I have my answer, I won't reply any further to unsupportive messages.
I see nothing "transphobic" about any remarks here. People are allowed to disagree with you.

Since this thread has devolved into personal attack and name-calling territory on all sides, it is now closed to discussion.
 
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