Has Journey's End shifted Terraria too far into removing player freedom?

It is 4 NPCs within 120 squares, not 25. So it's more than a 2 second walk. You have to go about a screen length and a half between any possible grouping of 4 NPCs. Meaning if there are four NPCs with any random subset of 120 tiles, you will be penalized.

"No more than one other NPC within 25 tiles and no more than three other NPCs within 120 tiles"

If you actually do the math, one can see that you can have 3 NPCs within 25 tiles as long as the shop NPC is in his loved biome and has 1 loved NPC around him.
If I am not wrong, you can have a cluster of 7 NPCs within 120 tiles and if the wanted NPC is in his loved biome and has his loved NPC, he is still below 75%.
So unless you deliberately make the 1.3 chicken coop houses, it is pretty hard to get them to the point of huge price gains.
 
It is 4 NPCs within 120 squares, not 25. So it's more than a 2 second walk. You have to go about a screen length and a half between any possible grouping of 4 NPCs. Meaning if there are four NPCs with any random subset of 120 tiles, you will be penalized.

"No more than one other NPC within 25 tiles and no more than three other NPCs within 120 tiles"

*Sigh* wrong again, it's funny you post a link to the wiki as if i'm the one using false information, when everything in my argument is coming from that exact same link.
Let me show you what it really means.
Wrong.png

"If there are four NPCs with any random subset of 120 tiles you will be penalized"
Please tell me where on this graph do you see that incurs a penalty. The 120 tile rule is for a BONUS, it says that doing that gives you a 90% price multiplier, everyone complaining about happiness talks about having to put NPCs so far apart, but if you want to ignore that mechanic, then you aren't looking for a bonus, you're just looking for neutral. The only rule that actually effects you based on distance is the first one. The 120 tile rule is irrelevant if you don't care about getting cheaper prices and simply want to shove all your NPCs in one space.
 
If you actually do the math, one can see that you can have 3 NPCs within 25 tiles as long as the shop NPC is in his loved biome and has 1 loved NPC around him.
If I am not wrong, you can have a cluster of 7 NPCs within 120 tiles and if the wanted NPC is in his loved biome and has his loved NPC, he is still below 75%.
So unless you deliberately make the 1.3 chicken coop houses, it is pretty hard to get them to the point of huge price gains.

Requiring players to perform advanced mathematics before placing NPCs is not a fun game mechanic.

I'll have to test your math and see.

*Sigh* wrong again, it's funny you post a link to the wiki as if i'm the one using false information, when everything in my argument is coming from that exact same link.
Let me show you what it really means.
View attachment 273919
"If there are four NPCs with any random subset of 120 tiles you will be penalized"
Please tell me where on this graph do you see that incurs a penalty. The 120 tile rule is for a BONUS, it says that doing that gives you a 90% price multiplier, everyone complaining about happiness talks about having to put NPCs so far apart, but if you want to ignore that mechanic, then you aren't looking for a bonus, you're just looking for neutral. The only rule that actually effects you based on distance is the first one. The 120 tile rule is irrelevant if you don't care about getting cheaper prices and simply want to shove all your NPCs in one space.

Well everything is irrelevant if you don't mind being punished by inflated prices. But most of us do mind.

"The 120 tile rule is for a BONUS, it says that doing that gives you a 90% price multiplier".

Well that depends on your perspective doesn't it? Not adhering to this arbitrary mechanic will ensure you have a "negative" bonus compared to what you could pay, you will pay more. It's like if you have a coupon at the store, if you don't use it then you are paying more needlessly.
 
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Well everything is irrelevant if you don't mind being punished by inflated prices. But most of us do mind.
That was my entire point, you aren't being punished.
Well that depends on your perspective doesn't it? Not adhering to this arbitrary mechanic will ensure you have a "negative" bonus compared to what you could pay, you will pay more.
That makes no sense, not adhering to the mechanic means not getting bonuses, why should it? You're not supposed to get reward for NOT following the rules, but you don't get penalized either. People who want to ignore the 120 tile rule get the same prices they were before happiness was added, which is what they want.

You follow the mechanic, you get a bonus, you don't follow the mechanic you remain just as you were before. What's the issue here?
 
My primary problem with Journey's End in general is the distressing trend of combining both positive and negative reinforcement in the same mechanic.

When a discount is available, missing out on the discount is already the penalty. Driving prices further up is cruel and sadistic, especially since it affects reforges.

A mega-base simply has too much opportunity cost now. If it was a choice between a mega-base and small towns that are harder to defend with Pylons for fast travel, that'd be more than fine. But it's a choice between a mega-base with much higher prices than normal, or small towns that are harder to defend with Pylons with lower prices than normal.

And that's messed up.
 
[...] If it was a choice between a mega-base and small towns that are harder to defend with Pylons for fast travel, that'd be more than fine. But it's a choice between a mega-base with much higher prices than normal, or small towns that are harder to defend with Pylons with lower prices than normal. [...]
Small towns aren't harder to defend. They're, in fact, incredibly easy to defend: don't be in them and no monsters will even spawn there.

Terraria did not suddenly become "unfair" in terms of base defense with Journey's End. From the get-go nine years ago the game always had a heavy pressure to build your spawn base as an arena first and a base second thanks to invasions. Invasions have always been the least fun and most annoying part of the entire game because they stop dead anything you're doing except for going back to spawn and fighting the invasion. There is no base design that protects against invasions, because all invasions have at least one enemy that can go through blocks, either itself or through its attack.

The fact that most summonable bosses automatically spawn until you have defeated them at least once is a less serious variation of this issue.
 
Requiring players to perform advanced mathematics before placing NPCs is not a fun game mechanic.

I'll have to test your math and see.
Yeah. A game all about numbers starting from building blocks, calculating sizes of houses or arenas over damage numbers and defensive ratings over to literal mathematics in almost any part of the game requiring you to multiply with decimals is "advanced" mathematics. It took me 2 minutes typing 100*0.9 or 100*1.04 multiple times into a calculator. But I guess it is too advanced for you and you play the game with a wooden sword because high damage numbers are too confusing for you?
My primary problem with Journey's End in general is the distressing trend of combining both positive and negative reinforcement in the same mechanic.

When a discount is available, missing out on the discount is already the penalty. Driving prices further up is cruel and sadistic, especially since it affects reforges.

A mega-base simply has too much opportunity cost now. If it was a choice between a mega-base and small towns that are harder to defend with Pylons for fast travel, that'd be more than fine. But it's a choice between a mega-base with much higher prices than normal, or small towns that are harder to defend with Pylons with lower prices than normal.

And that's messed up.
Harder to defend as in building your houses higher than 8 blocks in the air or blicking off doors with dirt? People are seriously trying to cry over any trivial mechanic. Why do you even play the game if basic things are too hard for you?
Defeating the ML is somehow easier than building a wooden box for 4 NPCs 8 tiles over the ground?
The mega-base you address will die out if one invasion or an event spawns there. Many small towns are spared.
Why do people on the other side of my discussions constantly try to pull something out of their nose and simply make things not what they are? Game has tons of much more difficult mechancs, but people cry about something new which isn't even close to that just for the sake of crying.
Serious question. What is so hard for you about building a box underground and putting the Tinkerer and Demolitionist in there and a pylon to them to enjoy a full discount?
 
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I've expressed this elsewhere, and it only covers a small portion of what this post is about, but I figure it's worth saying:

I feel that the split of Terraria into two distinctive factors in 1.4 - that is, the split of the sandbox-ish elements into the new Journey Mode and the more survival-ish elements into the various difficulties (casual/expert/master) is not an inherently bad thing. I do think that this echoes the sentiment you had in the initial post, but I do have a few issues with it --

By adding content that makes the survival aspects of the game shifted more away from the sandbox aspects of the game and more geared towards specific strategy, and implementing those same changes into the new "sandbox" (journey) mode, it dampens the sandbox experience of the game as well.

One of the best parts of Journey Mode (which I feel was done extraordinarily well, honestly) is the ability to toggle various parts of the game, and have sliders to determine them - e.g. monster strength, spawn rate, etc. However, by removing the ability to toggle the new parts of the game which make the other modes more survival-oriented, not only do you make the overall trend of the game less sandbox-y, even in the new "sandbox" mode.

Of course, mods will come along to disable these features, if they aren't already here, so it won't matter too much in the long-run.

TLDR: I don't think these features are bad but they should be toggleable in Journey Mode since they inherently remove part of the sandbox aspect of the game.
 
TLDR: I don't think these features are bad but they should be toggleable in Journey Mode since they inherently remove part of the sandbox aspect of the game.
There's no reason to toggle Happiness off in Journey Mode since you can duplicate expensive items like metal bars to make infinite money, so it doesn't matter how much anything costs.

EDIT: You can, in fact, duplicate money directly too.
 
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Explain why they removed the liquid dupe? and endless buckets are hardmode only and require you to grint the boing angler quests. This was a dumb fix and the devs even said it was a feautre but i guess not now. IM CONFUSED what the devs want with this game. Are they trying to turn it into otherworld because that failed and they still have this so. FEELS LIKE IT. Money running out so push older players away with stupid changes to get the new younge player to pay all over agin. If so SHAME ON YOU DEVS AND shame on the people defending these stupid changes after 5 YEARS. cant break sand under cactus now? WHY? afk fars are useless now. WHY?
 
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Explain why they removed the liquid dupe? and endless buckets are hardmode only. This was a dumb fix and the devs even said it was a feautre but i guess not now. IM CONFUSED what the devs want with this game. Are they trying to turn it into otherworld because that failed and they still have this so. FEELS LIKE IT. Money running out so push older players away with stupid changes to get the new younge player to pay all over agin. If so SHAME ON YOU DEVS AND shame on the people defending these stupid changes after 5 YEARS. cant break sand under cactus now? WHY? afk fars are useless now. WHY?
  • You can still duplicate water with a regular bucket using the standard split trick. I'm not sure if pumps still duplicate water.
  • You can now fish in lava before Hardmode. The Endless Bucket of Lava and the Lava-Absorbent Sponge can thus be acquired before Hardmore.
  • You've never been able to break the blocks underneath trees (which cactus is a type of) without taking the tree out first.
 
@Jostabeere, a reminder to keep the discussion to talking about the topic, instead of talking about the person in a deragatory manner. Thanks.
Wasn't it about the math of NPC happiness for atleast a few posts? Sure, addressing it in that way wasn't the best thing, but it is a very weird argument to say this is too hard within a game that is about numbers and formulas for the sake of argumenting.
If one doesn't care about math in terraria, he shouldn't care about the NPC happiness and penalties either. But if he cares about those, the argument is disregarded in my opinion.
 
  • You can still duplicate water with a regular bucket using the standard split trick. I'm not sure if pumps still duplicate water.
  • You can now fish in lava before Hardmode. The Endless Bucket of Lava and the Lava-Absorbent Sponge can thus be acquired before Hardmore.
  • You've never been able to break the blocks underneath trees (which cactus is a type of) without taking the tree out first.
Pumps dont work they delte liquids and the bucket trick only works in a hosted server plus is tedius when we cold just flick a switch.
Sand under cactus could always be mined before 1,4
Endles buckets are hardmode angler quests only.
 
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Wasn't it about the math of NPC happiness for atleast a few posts? Sure, addressing it in that way wasn't the best thing, but it is a very weird argument to say this is too hard within a game that is about numbers and formulas for the sake of argumenting.
If one doesn't care about math in terraria, he shouldn't care about the NPC happiness and penalties either. But if he cares about those, the argument is disregarded in my opinion.
We would not care about it if it never punished us.
 
We would not care about it if it never punished us.
Then build houses that do not punish you. What's so difficult about it exactly? At this point it isn't about trivial mechanics anymore. It's about people who got told they're wrong but still grip to their arguments for the sake of not showing that they're wrong.
 
Then build houses that do not punish you. What's so difficult about it exactly? At this point it isn't about trivial mechanics anymore. It's about people who got told they're wrong but still grip to their arguments for the sake of not showing that they're wrong.
like your dong now? anyway its a dumb mechanic. And why should we its a block game not a maths game. If i wanted to do math id go to real maths lesson. I build how i want not how someone wants me to build. Bit dumb in a building game dont ya think? Game tells us to be crative but not too creative dont want to hurt peoples felings.
 
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We would not care about it if it never punished us.
It doesn't punish you, as has been explained numerous times. All you need to do to dodge penalties is put every group of 3 NPCs at least 25 blocks from each other, a task which requires nothing but 2 seconds of walking...
 
like your dong now? anyway its a dumb mechanic. And why should we its a block game not a maths game. If i wanted to do math id go to real maths lesson. I build how i want not how someone wants me to build. Bit dumb in a building game dont ya think? Game tells us to be crative but not too creative dont want to hurt peoples felings.
This is just baiting and personal attacks now on a low level, sorry.
The game always had math in any of its parts. As said by me and ignored by you.
Terraria was never a "building" game. Sim City is a building game. Terraria is a 2D ARPG with building elements which you can completely ignore, unlike games where building is the main goal. You main goal in Terraria is to enhance your character and fight monsters to progress to the final boss. Crafting and building is an element of the game, not the main goal, so please do not make it the main goal.
The game has a ton of rules on what you can and cannot do, but you just bite yourself into the "I have to build differently now". It isn't about the entire topic or any other opinion, which you ignore, it is about you being stubborn.
If you want something that is not going by the games rules, you do not do it and leave the game.
Everything has rules, every game, every activity, even the real world has rules. And guess what, new rules are made all the time.

Now, the most useless argument is this:
Bit dumb in a building game dont ya think? Game tells us to be crative but not too creative dont want to hurt peoples felings.
First of all, if we assume Terrasia is a 100% building game. Then you don't need to shop for reforges or anything else. Build a giant house and forget penalties. You are here just to build, aren't you?
Second. "Building" is not exclusive to how you want to build it. Building multiple houses in different biomes is, you guessed it, BUILDING. Same building as BUILDING one house.
You claw yourself into the building argument, and I destroy it.
The creativity part makes 0 sense. You cannot measure creativity. It is subjective. And please, please, please tell me how one big building with all NPCs inside is more creative as multiple buildings with fewer NPCs? If we ask me, I'd say multiple ones in different enviroments are more creative than one base.
 
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