Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[FLUX2226]

Zenith shouldn't be seen as the final tier "melee class" weapon. It's more symbolic than any other weapon in the game. The melee tag makes sense, because of it's components. The Zenith has no magic, ranged, or summoner weapons, so adding those damage types doesn't really fit with the theme of the weapon. But the Zenith being melee is nothing more than that, a product of it's components.

But even if you see it as a symbolic weapon that represents your journey (I agree that it's symbolic, don't get me wrong), to all intents and purposes it's also the final tier melee class weapon. It's a sword crafted from other swords, it's the strongest weapon in the game, and deals melee damage.

So you have to understand that people like me who don't like playing as melee characters have mixed feelings about the Zenith. It just feels like being left out (It's also less symbolic if you play e.g. as a mage and have to collect swords you'd have never used on your journey if you want to craft the final item).

 

[SsIras]

But even if you see it as a symbolic weapon that represents your journey (I agree that it's symbolic, don't get me wrong), to all intents and purposes it's also the final tier melee class weapon. It's a sword crafted from other swords, it's the strongest weapon in the game, and deals melee damage.

So you have to understand that people like me who don't like playing as melee characters have mixed feelings about the Zenith. It just feels like being left out (It's also less symbolic if you play e.g. as a mage and have to collect swords you'd have never used on your journey if you want to craft the final item).

I agree. Though this doesn't feel like a balance issue or something to be complaining here. Zenith probably won't change it's damage type, if you a want "similar" weapon for other classes, wait for tmodloader or try to make a suggestion elsewhere.

 

[Yvori]

I feel like this thread is getting MASSIVELY off-topic.
This is for balance changes. Completely changing the Zenith to another damage type or adding new class-specific Zenith alternatives is FAR beyond the scope of this thread.

And as for the topic of whether the Zenith deserves its power as the only Post-Post-Moonlord weapon, everyone seems to be at a stalemate where nobody can convince anyone else one way or the other, so perhaps let's move on from this topic before it eats up even more pages?

 

[Ilmarinen]

I feel like fishing poles are currently unbalanced. Especially the scarab fishing rod. Since its a fishing pole obtained by fishing its already hard enough to get with the low fishing power you might still have after crafting the fleshcatcher / fisher of souls. Since the biome crates are also rare you almost certainly wont get it before getting another better rod.

I really feel that the scarab fishing rod should have some special quality to it. What that could be I don't know.

 

[GenericUsername]

I really feel that the scarab fishing rod should have some special quality to it. What that could be I don't know.

An increased chance to fish up oysters, perhaps? (Not sure about oasis/mirage crates, though. Perhaps it'd be nice if a more general mechanic was made for increasing the chance of obtaining a biome crate by using the corresponding fishing rod, though that starts becoming a feature request rather than a simple numerical balance change.)

 

[Baconfry]

The Cool Whip is actually really underwhelming; I get that the snowflake's damage was supposed to substitute for summon tag damage, but the Firecracker's effect is so much better in almost all situations, and the only pre-mech minion that doesn't prefer the Firecracker (namely, the Blade Staff) strongly prefers Snapthorn anyways. Cool Whip's main problem is that it has no synergies with minions at all, and no one seems to realize this; they just use the Cool Whip because it's "better than nothing" and assume that it's an upgrade to the Firecracker because it's obtained later. I think the best options are:

-overhaul snowflake completely and have it fire beams at nearby enemies when they are hit by minions
OR
-increase snowflake damage by up to 2x the longer it remains active (doubles as a stealth pun on "snowball")
OR
-move the snowflake effect to Frost armor, and have the Cool Whip add summon crit chance instead

 

[Coralbits]

I'm not sure if this is a bug that has somehow persisted from at least 1.3.5 (I'm on desktop), or an intended feature, so just to be safe, I'll post it here.

So, the Arctic and Jellyfish Diving Gear accessories, and possibly the Diving Gear accessory, do not display on the player unless there is nothing in both the vanity helmet slot and the armor helmet slot. That is regardless of whether said accessories were placed in the social or accessory slots, and regardless if the accessory is hidden or not. This pretty much shoots down any chance of me using these accessories as vanity, which I was really looking forward to when I crafted the Arctic Diving Gear. I really can't think of a good reason for why this is, but I never know.

This is pretty much my only gripe right now, so yeah, why do these accessories act like that?

 

[Dr. Endie]

I'm not sure if this is a bug that has somehow persisted from at least 1.3.5 (I'm on desktop), or an intended feature, so just to be safe, I'll post it here.

So, the Arctic and Jellyfish Diving Gear accessories, and possibly the Diving Gear accessory, do not display on the player unless there is nothing in both the vanity helmet slot and the armor helmet slot. That is regardless of whether said accessories were placed in the social or accessory slots, and regardless if the accessory is hidden or not. This pretty much shoots down any chance of me using these accessories as vanity, which I was really looking forward to when I crafted the Arctic Diving Gear. I really can't think of a good reason for why this is, but I never know.

This is pretty much my only gripe right now, so yeah, why do these accessories act like that?

They display if you wear a Familiar Wig.

 

[Incinerate]

I've noticed Water Walking Boots are finally easier to get as they're now in Ocean Crates from fishing, and then I notice this does not apply to Sandstorm in a Bottle for Oasis Crates. Can't you guys include Pyramid stuff on these Oasis Crates?

 

[JohannSimm]

I've noticed Water Walking Boots are finally easier to get as they're now in Ocean Crates from fishing, and then I notice this does not apply to Sandstorm in a Bottle for Oasis Crates. Can't you guys include Pyramid stuff on these Oasis Crates?

That's been brought up multiple times in this thread as a suggestion, but Leinfors said that he already put that suggestion before the team and was denied.

I also came up with another suggestion, which is to add it to Sandstone Chests as a rare secondary item (like the Encumbering Stone). But it may ultimately be the team's intention for it to remain a rare and exclusive item, despite its necessity in crafting the Bundle of Balloons.

But I think having it appear in Sandstone Chests is a good compromise, as it would require some amount of risk and luck to obtain, while adding a possibility of obtaining it in worlds without Pyramids. (It wouldn't show up in Oasis Crates either, because they don't include secondary items.)

 

[J Bame]

That's been brought up multiple times in this thread as a suggestion, but Leinfors said that he already put that suggestion before the team and was denied.

I also came up with another suggestion, which is to add it to Sandstone Chests as a rare secondary item (like the Encumbering Stone). But it may ultimately be the team's intention for it to remain a rare and exclusive item, despite its necessity in crafting the Bundle of Balloons.

But I think having it appear in Sandstone Chests is a good compromise, as it would require some amount of risk and luck to obtain, while adding a possibility of obtaining it in worlds without Pyramids. (It wouldn't show up in Oasis Crates either, because they don't include secondary items.)

I'd just make it one of the items that can show up in the Sandstone chests.

It fits and it gives the biome its version of the Cloud in a Bottle much like how it has its own Hermes Boots, and it also fixes part of the issue with Pyramids because if we are all being honest this is the only reason why we want them to be more common.

 

[Zario777]

I second the idea of the Pygmy Necklace being accessed earlier, since it is obtainable at the same time as the Necromantic Scroll, which does the same thing and more. It's also harder to think of stat chances since it seems like Minions can only get increased in damage, knockback, or slots. Plus, it would allow for an early Minion accessory. I'd say to move it to the Jungle Shrine; that's seems the most thematically appropriate without having to gate it behind a boss.

As a second suggestion, if you CAN increase the attack speed of minions, I'd say to have the Necromantic Scroll increase minion attack speed by 10% instead of damage.

 

[AJ1AJ]

An increased chance to fish up oysters, perhaps? (Not sure about oasis/mirage crates, though. Perhaps it'd be nice if a more general mechanic was made for increasing the chance of obtaining a biome crate by using the corresponding fishing rod, though that starts becoming a feature request rather than a simple numerical balance change.)

oysters aren't that rare already imo, but I suppose if you want luck potions that badly I guess it might be worth it. But then again we are talking about losing 25 fishing power so idk.
As for that other idea, it probably wouldn't help much for the scarab fishing rod since you could possibly get it last after getting all the other items in the oasis crate. Even for other biomes the loss of fishing power may not be worth it. I did just post a similar idea here tho.

 

[Dr. Endie]

I'd just make it one of the items that can show up in the Sandstone chests.

It fits and it gives the biome its version of the Cloud in a Bottle much like how it has its own Hermes Boots, and it also fixes part of the issue with Pyramids because if we are all being honest this is the only reason why we want them to be more common.

That's a cool idea! It would also keep pyramids unique still, as they're the only way you can get the Egyptian banners, the Pharaoh set and the Magic Carpet.

 

[JohannSimm]

I'd just make it one of the items that can show up in the Sandstone chests.

It fits and it gives the biome its version of the Cloud in a Bottle much like how it has its own Hermes Boots, and it also fixes part of the issue with Pyramids because if we are all being honest this is the only reason why we want them to be more common.

The trick is that if Sandstorm in a Bottle becomes one of the primary items found in Sandstone Chests, then by necessity it would also have to be included in Oasis Crates, as Oasis Crates always contain one of the primary Sandstone Chest items. That essentially brings us back to the previous proposition – adding Sandstorm in a Bottle to Oasis Crates. This might be accepted, but only if it's the exclusivity of the other Pyramid items the devs are primarily concerned with, not the Sandstorm in a Bottle.

I had already suggested making Sandstorm in a Bottle part of the primary Sandstone Chest loot earlier in this thread, but when I realized that Oasis Crates might be an issue, I altered the proposition to having it be a secondary item in Sandstone Chests, like the Encumbering Stone and the Desert Minecart. This isn't as ideal as just adding it to the primary loot pool, but if Oasis Crates aren't part of the picture, it may have a better chance of passing muster with the devs.

Ultimately, both versions of this proposition should be presented to the devs as alternatives.

 

[CrabBar]

Well, rant #19237 about Underground Desert. Shortly put, this is a zone that is more dangerous than Underground Jungle and even Underworld, while providing loot of power between Snow and Jungle tier.

• Cactus boulders. Why. I won't even hide my frustration. You can't just take a trap that threatens players all up to post-EoC/Skeletron/always (normal/expert/master accordingly), give it an ability to break loose from any point of the map, make it bouncy, give an after-effect of spikes to just add salt to the injury, and then put HUNDREDS of them inside a biome. Cut their rolling damage in 4-6 times so you can actually not sweat about them for 5 seconds while exploring UD.
• Sand Trap is quite oppressive too, but no idea how to make it weaker without removing excessive sand or nerfing sand falling dmg directly
• Antlion Larva is too beefy and dangerous enemy for the size of 1 block. Right now stats are about 50% of chargers, should be like 40% given how common they are if you enter a big cave
• Additionally, all enemies could use a universal stat nerf. They still are balanced like the underground desert is... uh, post-evil boss content, while the content itself clearly shifted a tier below, yet biome got even more dangerous in 1.4?
• Random sand patches in walls are quite annoying by themselves, makes digging to the sides and especially up a big mental challenge. Not arguing for that to be removed since it makes sense for regular sand to be there, but it's another detrimental from gameplay so it has to be noted
• Bast Statue is neat concept, but there are two major limiting factors to it: almost impossible to stock up for a decent arena size, and it constantly becomes worse as you progress. +1 defense per boss defeated is a tad too much, increasing the boost for Hardmode only is too discrete. Maybe let it apply Damage Reduction instead? As for the item amounts, yes oasis crates exist but you aint gonna convince me this is a serious way to obtain a handful of statues, maybe let a stack of few statues spawn instead of 1, say, 1-3 or 2-5.
• Dunerider boots making for pre-boss Asphalt? Not something I care to balance out but merely stare at, menacingly.
• Antlions Mandibles are so common that they should be used for something else than Mining Potions and Sandgun (or reduced in chance but eh, that's a no-fun)

I hope the single most frustrating biome ever player can encounter in the game will be more rewarding and less headache-inducing. Right now the only reasons to go there that aren't outweighed by difficulty on tier are Ancient Chisel and Golfer

 

[FLUX2226]

The trick is that if Sandstorm in a Bottle becomes one of the primary items found in Sandstone Chests, then by necessity it would also have to be included in Oasis Crates, as Oasis Crates always contain one of the primary Sandstone Chest items. That essentially brings us back to the previous proposition – adding Sandstorm in a Bottle to Oasis Crates. This might be accepted, but only if it's the exclusivity of the other Pyramid items the devs are primarily concerned with, not the Sandstorm in a Bottle.

I had already suggested making Sandstorm in a Bottle part of the primary Sandstone Chest loot earlier in this thread, but when I realized that Oasis Crates might be an issue, I altered the proposition to having it be a secondary item in Sandstone Chests, like the Encumbering Stone and the Desert Minecart. This isn't as ideal as just adding it to the primary loot pool, but if Oasis Crates aren't part of the picture, it may have a better chance of passing muster with the devs.

Ultimately, both versions of this proposition should be presented to the devs as alternatives.

Just out of curiosity, is there an official reason why the sandstorm won't be added to oasis crates or are we just guessing?

 

[Derpinator-9000🪓]

Well, rant #19237 about Underground Desert. Shortly put, this is a zone that is more dangerous than Underground Jungle and even Underworld, while providing loot of power between Snow and Jungle tier.

• Cactus boulders. Why. I won't even hide my frustration. You can't just take a trap that threatens players all up to post-EoC/Skeletron/always (normal/expert/master accordingly), give it an ability to break loose from any point of the map, make it bouncy, give an after-effect of spikes to just add salt to the injury, and then put HUNDREDS of them inside a biome. Cut their rolling damage in 4-6 times so you can actually not sweat about them for 5 seconds while exploring UD.
• Sand Trap is quite oppressive too, but no idea how to make it weaker without removing excessive sand or nerfing sand falling dmg directly
• Antlion Larva is too beefy and dangerous enemy for the size of 1 block. Right now stats are about 50% of chargers, should be like 40% given how common they are if you enter a big cave
• Additionally, all enemies could use a universal stat nerf. They still are balanced like the underground desert is... uh, post-evil boss content, while the content itself clearly shifted a tier below, yet biome got even more dangerous in 1.4?
• Random sand patches in walls are quite annoying by themselves, makes digging to the sides and especially up a big mental challenge. Not arguing for that to be removed since it makes sense for regular sand to be there, but it's another detrimental from gameplay so it has to be noted
• Bast Statue is neat concept, but there are two major limiting factors to it: almost impossible to stock up for a decent arena size, and it constantly becomes worse as you progress. +1 defense per boss defeated is a tad too much, increasing the boost for Hardmode only is too discrete. Maybe let it apply Damage Reduction instead? As for the item amounts, yes oasis crates exist but you aint gonna convince me this is a serious way to obtain a handful of statues, maybe let a stack of few statues spawn instead of 1, say, 1-3 or 2-5.
• Dunerider boots making for pre-boss Asphalt? Not something I care to balance out but merely stare at, menacingly.
• Antlions Mandibles are so common that they should be used for something else than Mining Potions and Sandgun (or reduced in chance but eh, that's a no-fun)

I hope the single most frustrating biome ever player can encounter in the game will be more rewarding and less headache-inducing. Right now the only reasons to go there that aren't outweighed by difficulty on tier are Ancient Chisel and Golfer

I agree that the difficulty about the biome is a bit too much considering that the underworld and jungle provide better loot despite being easier. Although the cactus boulders are probably a bit too strong, I kind of like how they can be used. I found myself using the cactus boulders against enemies a lot, which was pretty fun. I think the biggest threat is actually the larva, they are way stronger then they look. Perhaps their damage could be nerfed a bit?

 

[qwerty3.14]

I agree that the difficulty about the biome is a bit too much considering that the underworld and jungle provide better loot despite being easier. Although the cactus boulders are probably a bit too strong, I kind of like how they can be used. I found myself using the cactus boulders against enemies a lot, which was pretty fun. I think the biggest threat is actually the larva, they are way stronger then they look. Perhaps their damage could be nerfed a bit?

Whenever I try to use the cactus boulders against enemies it just runs over a bunch of eggs and now I got a swarm of antlion larva.

 

[Tripoli]

Sand Trap is quite oppressive too

It was a neat and unexpected move tho, considering all those cactii lying around being red herring. Arguably much more dangerous red herring. I chuckled on first encounter.

Random sand patches in walls are quite annoying by themselves, makes digging to the sides and especially up a big mental challenge. Not arguing for that to be removed since it makes sense for regular sand to be there, but it's another detrimental from gameplay so it has to be noted

They said they'll look into block swap for sand, thus partially mitigating this problem.

Antlion Larva is too beefy and dangerous enemy for the size of 1 block. Right now stats are about 50% of chargers, should be like 40% given how common they are if you enter a big cave

I second this. And there is way too much of them, bees come in lesser numbers. "Not the antlions" worldgen when? However, maybe instead of nerfing them making them spawn in larger confined Nest micro-biomes would be better?