Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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Definitively an issue that OOA is this painful, I could do it with Balista Staff, Frost Hydra Dark Artist Set and Razorblade, but I had to keep my Razorblade despite playing multi-class, since none of Betsy drops appealed to me. It's debatable if Frost Moon is harder than Fishron/EoL (since you don't need to actually beat it to get all the drops), but OOA is definitively harder. Well, regardless, Leinfors already adressed this so I think that must be sorted already.
 
Generally speaking, and in deference to years of established progression, I generally seek to have a minor post-Golem progression of-

Pumpkin Moon>Frost Moon>Fishron/Empress

This is not a hard rule here, but generally speaking, the average Duke drop is usually better than corresponding PM/FM drops, and FM is usually more difficult than PM.

OOA Tier 3 is something I'm proposing some buffs to, given how hard Expert/Master level OOA T3 can be.
 
Human said:
This might sound strange, nonsensical and completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, but bear with me. Rainbow Crystal Staff's crystal (not its explosions) should have a 2x direct hit damage modifier, akin to Stynger and Rocket Launcher. My reasoning for this strange proposed change is that 1.4 made this weapon completely unusable in PvP because of the way it was reworked for PvE.

If the crystal itself (and nothing else) gained Stynger's/RL's modifier, it would have zero impact on PvE balancing, as only players can take contact damage from it, but it would bring the once beloved and unique weapon back to PvP. I don't think this would be too hard to implement, either, as the 2x modifier already works flawlessly in PvP. Though if this isn't as simple as slapping Stynger's modifier onto projectile #643, I won't object to this not being implemented.

If Re-Logic give this a shot, I will appreciate it greatly, even if it doesn't end up working and gets scrapped in development. Rainbow Crystal Staff is the one thing I miss a lot from 1.3's PvP.
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I would appreciate if this didn't happen. This weapon was incredibly toxic in PVP as it was hitscan and could hit you anywhere. I actually appreciate the nerf quite a bit, and honestly think they should have nerfed the Sniper Rifle too (it makes pvp too easy for me).
 
CrabBar said:
Indeed. Ironically enough, the said Sniper Rifle that easily earns the top-10 most atrocious things to play against in PvP is actually underpowered in PvE, and there is little to no way around that.
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[violently sips tea]

What about making its damage against mobs absolutely ridiculous while nerfing damage against players? The reverse of how certain traps [Looking at you, boulder] work, basically.

It could be an amazing boss weapon (because being honest, a weapon locked onto such a slow use time has no better alternative) without losing it's PvP purpose (360 no scoping players not even on the screen, maybe [hopefully] without being an instakill in the process)
 
Player's generally have a higher defense stat than enemies and every attack landed on them causes iFrames, in pvp this is a complete F you to every rapidly attacking weapon.
 
Leinfors said:
Generally speaking, and in deference to years of established progression, I generally seek to have a minor post-Golem progression of-

Pumpkin Moon>Frost Moon>Fishron/Empress

This is not a hard rule here, but generally speaking, the average Duke drop is usually better than corresponding PM/FM drops, and FM is usually more difficult than PM.

OOA Tier 3 is something I'm proposing some buffs to, given how hard Expert/Master level OOA T3 can be.
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Like we were talking before, Pumpkin and Frost Moon have drops that are worse than Golem's. Even more now that a lot of Golem gear has been buffed.
Pumpkin Moon drops seem more justified to being post-Plantera upgrades, but going for Golem is much easier.
And Frost Moon, with a few exceptions should be closer to Fishron (not equal).
So I did suggest a review on the Moon events akin to OOA T3.
 
I'd like to mention an issue with the Snowman Cannon.

Currently, there are two rough categories of launcher: Those that use the special properties of their ammunition, and those that don't. The Grenade Launcher, Rocket Launcher, Proximity Mine Launcher, and Snowman Cannon fall under this first category. The Electrosphere Launcher, Celebration, and Celebration Mk2 fall under the second category, overwriting all properties except damage (with the exception of the Celebration Mk2 in regards to tile destruction).

However, despite inheriting most properties of its ammunition, the Snowman Cannon has one strange exception. Currently, when used with Cluster Rocket I or Cluster Rocket II as ammunition, the Snowman Cannon's rockets create the usual Cluster Rocket shrapnel, but unlike with the Grenade Launcher, Rocket Launcher, or Proximity Mine Launcher, the shrapnel explosions do not deal any damage.

My question is this: If the Snowman Cannon is not intended to work with Cluster Rocket I and Cluster Rocket II, why should it create any secondary explosions at all? I can't help but think this must be an oversight. Either the secondary explosions should cause damage, or there shouldn't be any at all.

EDIT: This bug has already been reported.

I also find it strange that the Celebration Mk2 is able to inherit tile-destruction properties from its ammunition, and its predecessor cannot. It seems like a property that the Celebration (and even the Electrosphere Launcher) could validly inherit, as there is nothing to lose by allowing them to benefit from the even-numbered rocket variations.
 
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JohannSimm said:
I'd like to mention an issue with the Snowman Cannon.

Currently, there are two rough categories of launcher: Those that use the special properties of their ammunition, and those that don't. The Grenade Launcher, Rocket Launcher, Proximity Mine Launcher, and Snowman Cannon fall under this first category. The Electrosphere Launcher, Celebration, and Celebration Mk2 fall under the second category, overwriting all properties except damage (with the exception of the Celebration Mk2 in regards to tile destruction).

However, despite inheriting most properties of its ammunition, the Snowman Cannon has one strange exception. Currently, when used with Cluster Rocket I or Cluster Rocket II as ammunition, the Snowman Cannon's rockets create the usual Cluster Rocket shrapnel, but unlike with the Grenade Launcher, Rocket Launcher, or Proximity Mine Launcher, the shrapnel explosions do not deal any damage.

My question is this: If the Snowman Cannon is not intended to work with Cluster Rocket I and Cluster Rocket II, why should it create any secondary explosions at all? I can't help but think this must be an oversight. Either the secondary explosions should cause damage, or there shouldn't be any at all.

I also find it strange that the Celebration Mk2 is able to inherit tile-destruction properties from its ammunition, and its predecessor cannot. It seems like a property that the Celebration (and even the Electrosphere Launcher) could validly inherit, as there is nothing to lose by allowing them to benefit from the even-numbered rocket variations.
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Please don't change the snowman cannon. It's one of the nicest ways to clear out large amounts of terrain quickly without having to beat the game and craft the DCU. It's saved my jungle on more than one occasion too.
 
Ilmarinen said:
Please don't change the snowman cannon. It's one of the nicest ways to clear out large amounts of terrain quickly without having to beat the game and craft the DCU. It's saved my jungle on more than one occasion too.
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No need to worry. I wasn't proposing any major changes to the Snowman Cannon. I was just bringing up a weird inconsistency with the Cluster Rockets. The Snowman Cannon currently generates the extra explosions from the Cluster Rockets, but they deal no damage to enemies. This seems like a bug or an oversight; either the Cluster Rocket shrapnel explosions should deal damage to enemies, or there should be no mini-explosions at all. The current situation is unintuitive visually, and liable to cause confusion. The Snowman Cannon is currently in limbo between the launchers that use the Cluster Rockets' shrapnel ability (Grenade, Rocket, and Proximity Mine Launchers), and those that disable it (Electrosphere Launcher and both Celebrations). Fixing this inconsistency won't affect how the Snowman Cannon interacts with any other kind of ammunition.
 
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There is one extremely niche item which performed only decently in that niche and still wasn't the best option most of the time or even used often, yet it was still nerfed in 1.4... The Scutlix Mount.

This item completely grounds you in return for giving a laser attack. While the attack is only debatably strong at best, this item used to be able to snipe enemies that were far offscreen, making it sometimes worth it against some waves of the Old One's Army or an event like the Solar Pillar, where you can't even fly anyway...

However, when 1.4 came, this thing was nerfed into the ground. It's range is now pitiful and can't even hit everything onscreen anymore. I cannot fathom why this decision was made. The tradeoff of ridiculous range with a rather okay attack was already almost not worth it already with how it totally destroys your mobility. It's now an item which I can safely say is useless, because by the time you get it, the only challenges left are Enraged Empress, maybe Duke Fishron, and the Lunar Events. The nerf to range should be reversed, as this item fit it's niche perfectly without being overpowered in the slightest or even the best option for said niche.
 
Derpling Ω said:
There is one extremely niche item which performed only decently in that niche and still wasn't the best option most of the time or even used often, yet it was still nerfed in 1.4... The Scutlix Mount.

This item completely grounds you in return for giving a laser attack. While the attack is only debatably strong at best, this item used to be able to snipe enemies that were far offscreen, making it sometimes worth it against some waves of the Old One's Army or an event like the Solar Pillar, where you can't even fly anyway...

However, when 1.4 came, this thing was nerfed into the ground. It's range is now pitiful and can't even hit everything onscreen anymore. I cannot fathom why this decision was made. The tradeoff of ridiculous range with a rather okay attack was already almost not worth it already with how it totally destroys your mobility. It's now an item which I can safely say is useless, because by the time you get it, the only challenges left are Enraged Empress, maybe Duke Fishron, and the Lunar Events. The nerf to range should be reversed, as this item fit it's niche perfectly without being overpowered in the slightest or even the best option for said niche.
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Scutlix was nerfed? That's new to me. I knew Terra Blade received a minor buff without anyone saying anything, but Brain Scrambler?
If that's the case, I can't see why they did that.
 
SsIras said:
Scutlix was nerfed? That's new to me. I knew Terra Blade received a minor buff without anyone saying anything, but Brain Scrambler?
If that's the case, I can't see why they did that.
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There are actually quite a few changes missing from the changelog, the Sharpening Station buff being an example.
 
SsIras said:
Scutlix was nerfed? That's new to me. I knew Terra Blade received a minor buff without anyone saying anything, but Brain Scrambler?
If that's the case, I can't see why they did that.
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It wasn't an "intentional nerf" in a balance sense, it was a side effect of optimization changes that I was not aware of, and so it didn't find its way into the changelog at the time. I only recently found out about it myself.

Apparently the range check for the Scutlix Mount was extremely high, and the larger it was, the more performance impact it had. As a result of its off-screen range detection, it had an inordinate performance impact for something like a mount's attack (not a justified expenditure of performance). Its range was reduced substantially, as a result of that.

As this was not on my radar, I didn't make note of it at the time, but it has a very significant impact on its effective combat performance. After revisiting the situation, we've increased the range moderately from where it is (though still substantially lesser than it was prior to 1.4) and I'm proposing a damage buff to mitigate the loss. None of it is finalized, however.

Unfortunately, a complete revert of the range nerf is unlikely to happen, as it was having an impact beyond standard balancing effects.


Derpling Ω said:
There are actually quite a few changes missing from the changelog, the Sharpening Station buff being an example.
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Sharpening Station buff is in the changelog last time I checked.
 
Hardmode Ore Armor Rebalance

Cobalt Armor
Substantive raw stats buffs, including increased defence and additions of damage and critical strike chance increases. Improved set bonus for ranged.

Cobalt Breastplate
8 defence >> 10 defence [+2]
+3% critical strike chance >> +5% critical strike chance [+2%]

Cobalt Leggings [no changes]
7 defence
+10% movement speed

Cobalt Hat (Mage)
2 defence >> 3 defence [+1]
New: +9% magic damage
+9% magic critical strike chance
+40 max mana >> +60 max mana [+20]
Set Bonus: 14% reduced mana usage >> 17% reduced mana usage [+3%]

Cobalt Helmet (Melee)
11 defence >> 14 defence [+3]
New: +12% melee damage
+7% movement speed
+12% melee speed
Set Bonus: +15% melee speed; New: +7% melee critical strike chance

Cobalt Mask (Ranged)
4 defence >> 6 defence [+2]
+10% ranged damage >> +12% ranged damage [+2%]
+6% ranged critical strike chance
Set Bonus: 20 percent chance not to consume ammo; New: +7% ranged critical strike chance

Cobalt armour (Mage)
20 defence [+3]
+9% magic damage [+9%]
+14% magic critical strike chance [+2%]
+60 max mana [+20]
-17% mana usage [-3%]
+10% movement speed

Cobalt armour (Melee)
31 defence [+5]
+12% melee damage [+12%]
+12% melee critical strike chance [+9%]
+27% melee speed
+17% movement speed

Cobalt armour (Ranged)
23 defence [+4]
+12% ranged damage [+2%]
+18% ranged critical strike chance [+9%]
20 percent chance not to consume ammo
+10% movement speed
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Palladium Armor
General stats buffs. Regen nerfed by 1/3.

Palladium Breastplate
10 defence >> 11 defence [+1]
+3% damage >> +4% damage [+1%]
+2% critical strike chance >> +3% critical strike chance [+1%]

Palladium Leggings
8 defence
+2% damage >> +3% damage [+1%]
+1% critical strike chance >> +2% critical strike chance [+1%]

Palladium Headgear [no changes]
3 defence
+7% magic damage
+7% magic critical strike chance
+60 max mana

Palladium Mask
14 defence >> 16 defence [+2]
+8% melee damage
+12% melee speed

Palladium Helmet
5 defence >> 6 defence [+1]
+9% ranged damage
+9% ranged critical strike chance

Palladium armour (Mage)
22 defence [+1]
+14% magic damage [+2%]
+12% magic critical strike chance [+2%]
+60 max mana
Set Bonus: Rapid Healing [15 HP over 5 seconds >> 10 HP over 5 seconds]

Palladium armour (Melee)
35 defence [+3]
+15% melee damage [+2%]
+5% critical strike chance [+2%]
+12 melee speed
Set Bonus: Rapid Healing [15 HP over 5 seconds >> 10 HP over 5 seconds]

Palladium armour (Ranged)
25 defence [+2]
+16% ranged damage [+2%]
+14% ranged critical strike chance [+2%]
Set Bonus: Rapid Healing [15 HP over 5 seconds >> 10 HP over 5 seconds]
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Mythril Armor
General stats buffs. Ranged set bonus improved.

Mythril Chainmail
12 defence
+5% damage >> +6% damage [+1%]

Mythril Greaves
9 defence
+3% critical strike chance >> +5% critical strike chance [+2%]

Mythril Hood
3 defence >> 4 defence [+1]
+15% magic damage
+60 max mana >> +80 max mana [+20]
Set Bonus: 17% reduced mana usage >> 19% reduced mana usage

Mythril Helmet
16 defence >> 18 defence [+2]
+10% melee damage >> +13% melee damage [+3%]
+5% melee critical strike chance
Set Bonus: +5% melee critical strike chance

Mythril Hat
6 defence >> 7 defence [+1]
+12% ranged damage
+7% ranged critical strike chance
Set Bonus: 20% chance not to consume ammo; New: +5% ranged critical strike chance

Mythril armour (Mage)
25 defence [+1]
+21% magic damage [+1%]
+5% critical strike chance [+2%]
+80 max mana [+20]
-19% mana usage [-2%]

Mythril armour (Melee)
39 defence [+2]
+19% melee damage [+4%]
+15% melee critical strike chance [+2%]

Mythril armour (Ranged)
28 defence [+1]
+18% ranged damage [+1%]
+17% ranged critical strike chance [+7%]
20% chance not to consume ammo
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Orichalcum Armor
Balance changes to Orichalcum Headgear to increase its viability, and bring it in line with the other helmets.

Orichalcum Headgear (Melee)
19 defence >> 20 defence [+1]
+7% melee damage
New: +12% melee critical strike chance
+7% melee speed >> +12% melee speed [+5%]
+7% movement speed

Orichalcum armour (Melee)
43 defence [+1]
+0% melee damage [-7%]
+18% melee critical strike chance [+12%]
+12% melee speed [+5%]
+18% movement speed
Set Bonus: Flower petals
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Adamantite Armor
Substantial damage buffs, along with a defence nerf to put it between Orichalcum and Titanium. Improved set bonus for ranged.

Adamantite Breastplate
16 defence >> 14 defence [-2]
+6% damage >> +8% damage [+2%]

Adamantite Leggings
12 defence >> 11 defence [-1]
+4% critical strike chance >> +6% critical strike chance [+2%]
+5% movement speed >> +10% movement speed [+5%]

Adamantite Headgear
4 defence
+11% magic damage
+11% magic critical strike chance
+80 max mana >> +100 max mana [+20]
Set Bonus: 19% reduced mana usage >> 21% reduced mana usage [+2%]

Adamantite Helmet
22 defence
+14% melee damage
+7% melee critical strike chance >> +9% melee critical strike chance [+2%]
New: +14% melee speed
Set Bonus: +18% melee and movement speed >> +13% melee and movement speed [-5%]

Adamantite Mask [no changes except set bonus]
8 defence
+14% ranged damage
+8% ranged critical strike chance
Set Bonus: 25% chance not to consume ammo; New: +9% ranged critical strike chance

Adamantite armour (Mage)
29 defence [-3]
+19% magic damage [+2%]
+17% magic critical strike chance [+2%]
+100 max mana [+20]
-21% mana usage [-2%]
+10% movement speed [+5%]

Adamantite armour (Melee)
47 defence [-3]
+22% melee damage [+2%]
+15% melee critical strike chance [+4%]
+27% melee speed [+9%]
+23% movement speed

Adamantite armour (Ranged)
33 defence [-3]
+22% ranged damage [+2%]
+23% ranged critical strike chance [+11%]
25% chance not to consume ammo
+10% movement speed [+5%]
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Frost Armor
Increased defence and crit chance and added x5 Frostburn damage multiplier (similar to Huntress armour).

Frost Breastplate
20 defence >> 18 defence [-2]
+11% melee and ranged critical strike chance
New: +7% melee attack speed

Frost Leggings
13 defence >> 16 defence [+3]
New: +11% melee and ranged critical strike chance
+7% melee attack speed
+8% movement speed >> +10% movement speed [+2%]

Frost Helmet
10 defence >> 13 defence [+3]
+16% melee and ranged damage
New: +7% melee attack speed

Frost armour
47 defence [+4]
+16% melee and ranged damage
+22% melee and ranged critical strike chance [+11%]
+14% melee attack speed [+7%]
+10% movement speed [+2%]
Set Bonus: Melee and ranged attacks inflict Frostburn [New: Player-inflicted Frostburn damage is increased by 400%]

Older Changes: (still too underpowered)

Frost Breastplate
20 defence >> 18 defence [-2]
+11% melee and ranged critical strike chance >> +15% melee and ranged critical strike chance [+4%]

Frost Leggings
13 defence >> 16 defence [+3]
+7% melee attack speed >> +12% melee attack speed [+5%]
+8% movement speed

Frost Helmet
10 defence >> 13 defence [+3]
+16% melee and ranged damage

Frost armour
47 defence [+4]
+16% melee and ranged damage
+15% melee and ranged critical strike chance [+4%]
+12% melee attack speed [+5%]
+8% movement speed
Set Bonus: Melee and ranged attacks inflict Frostburn [New: Player-inflicted Frostburn damage is increased by 200%]
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JohannSimm said:
Adamantite Armor
Substantial damage buffs, along with a defence nerf to put it between Orichalcum and Titanium. Improved set bonus for ranged.

Adamantite Breastplate
16 defence >> 14 defence [-2]
+6% damage >> +8% damage [+2%]

Adamantite Leggings
12 defence >> 11 defence [-1]
+4% critical strike chance >> +6% critical strike chance [+2%]
+5% movement speed >> +10% movement speed [+5%]

Adamantite Headgear
4 defence
+11% magic damage
+11% magic critical strike chance
+80 max mana >> +100 max mana [+20]
Set Bonus: 19% reduced mana usage >> 21% reduced mana usage [+2%]

Adamantite Helmet
22 defence
+14% melee damage
+7% melee critical strike chance >> +9% melee critical strike chance [+2%]
New: +14% melee speed
Set Bonus: +18% melee and movement speed >> +13% melee and movement speed [-5%]

Adamantite Mask [no changes except set bonus]
8 defence
+14% ranged damage
+8% ranged critical strike chance
Set Bonus: 25% chance not to consume ammo; New: +9% ranged critical strike chance

Adamantite armour (Mage)
29 defence [-3]
+19% magic damage [+2%]
+17% magic critical strike chance [+2%]
+100 max mana [+20]
-21% mana usage [-2%]
+10% movement speed [+5%]

Adamantite armour (Melee)
47 defence [-3]
+22% melee damage [+2%]
+15% melee critical strike chance [+4%]
+27% melee speed [+9%]
+23% movement speed

Adamantite armour (Ranged)
33 defence [-3]
+22% ranged damage [+2%]
+23% ranged critical strike chance [+11%]
25% chance not to consume ammo
+10% movement speed [+5%]



Frost Armor
Increased defence and crit chance and tripled Frostburn damage (similar to Huntress armour).

Frost Breastplate
20 defence >> 18 defence [-2]
+11% melee and ranged critical strike chance >> +15% melee and ranged critical strike chance [+4%]

Frost Leggings
13 defence >> 16 defence [+3]
+7% melee attack speed >> +12% melee attack speed [+5%]
+8% movement speed

Frost Helmet
10 defence >> 13 defence [+3]
+16% melee and ranged damage

Frost armour
47 defence [+4]
+16% melee and ranged damage
+15% melee and ranged critical strike chance [+4%]
+12% melee attack speed [+5%]
+8% movement speed
Set Bonus: Melee and ranged attacks inflict Frostburn [New: Player-inflicted Frostburn damage is increased by 200%]
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So... you gave a small buff to frost armor and then you gave a huge buff to adamatite, the armor it's directly competing with? Yeah... you made frost armor even worse by comparison.
 
qwerty3.14 said:
So... you gave a small buff to frost armor and then you gave a huge buff to adamatite, the armor it's directly competing with? Yeah... you made frost armor even worse by comparison.
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It was a last-minute addition, and I unfortunately neglected to compare it to Adamantite, damage-wise. Perhaps these stats will be more impactful. In addition to increasing the crit chance, I've increased the Frostburn damage from 24 to 32 DPS.

Frost Armor

Frost Breastplate
20 defence >> 18 defence [-2]
New: +8% melee and ranged damage
+11% melee and ranged critical strike chance

Frost Leggings
13 defence >> 16 defence [+3]
+7% melee attack speed >> +14% melee attack speed [+7%]
+8% movement speed >> +10% movement speed [+2%]

Frost Helmet
10 defence >> 13 defence [+3]
+8% melee and ranged damage
New: +11% melee and ranged critical strike chance

Frost armour
47 defence [+4]
+16% melee and ranged damage
+22% melee and ranged critical strike chance [+11%]
+14% melee attack speed [+7%]
+10% movement speed [+2%]
Set Bonus: Melee and ranged attacks inflict Frostburn [New: Player-inflicted Frostburn damage is increased by 300%]
 
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JohannSimm said:
Frost Breastplate
20 defence >> 18 defence [-2]
New: +8% melee and ranged damage
+11% melee and ranged critical strike chance
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This is the one piece that didn't need a buff lol, it had the best ranged/melee offensive bonuses of any pre mech chest piece.

JohannSimm said:
Frost Leggings
13 defence >> 16 defence [+3]
+7% melee attack speed >> +14% melee attack speed [+7%]
+8% movement speed >> +10% melee attack speed [+2%]
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This is still kinda bad, and the set bonus isn't good enough to justify using this over spider greaves. I can get an extra spider that can easily do 2x the damage of the frostburn you suggested and knock enemies back.

JohannSimm said:
Frost Helmet
10 defence >> 13 defence [+3]
+8% melee and ranged damage
New: +11% melee and ranged critical strike chance
Click to expand...
This one is ok.

As a whole the set isn't bad but move some of the chest piece's stats to the legs.
 
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