Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[Leinfors]

I take it this is a hard no? What about auto-clickers? For me and many others this just makes a third party autoclicker mandatory for the best experience.

I don't think pre-clicks should be that difficult of a change, and the balance shift should be within a margin that is not game breaking.

It just feels so much better I would hope that you would at least try it internally before rejecting it, even if it never sees release due to balance problems or other complications.

For a "pre-click"?
I think this is a hard no, because this is not a minor balance tweak (which is the scope of this entire thread), but a heavy overhaul to the functionality of dozens of weapons, with untold potential bug impact which would take significant amounts of time to test for.

Its not something that could be tried internally because it IS a difficult change. "I don't think pre-clicks should be that difficult of a change" - well, that is inaccurate. Terraria was not coded that way, its foundations are not so easily changed. I even asked Yorai, and he indicates that it would be a very complex code task likely with a ton of consequences that would need to be tested for. Its not something he can just "turn on really quickly for me to test". It would take substantial amounts of his time just to make it work, and THEN I'd have to test it.

Typically speaking, 90-95% of the changes that fall within the scope of this thread are very simple stat adjustment changes. Part of the conditions of that scope is my own skill level: balance changes made here are almost exclusively done by me, so that it does not detract from the work load of the more skilled coders. Stat changes and minor adjustments = easy to do, quick to do, they do not slow down development/bug fixing. Fundamental overhauls to the game's functionality = takes a long time, can only be done by Red/Yorai, creates tons of bugs, requires tons of testing time. That's why I usually advocate for simpler, cleaner solutions instead of complex ones. Because if I can personally solve a problem just by changing one number in 5 minutes, I'd rather do that than watch Yorai spend a 10 hours rewriting code and then another 10 fixing bugs that stem from said changes.



Now, if the question is "autofire for everything", that is a hard no because this is how Red made it. We might not have designed the game around lack of autoswing in the first place, knowing what we know, but its too ingrained in the current balance of the game and how much of it was designed to just be arbitrarily changed right now.

The presence of autoclickers is what it is. If people want to use external tools, cheats, file editors or the like . . . that is up to them. We aren't going to redesign the game to counter that.

 

[a31337]

Funny you should mention CAR.

For starters, Shadowbeam Staff's base damage is significantly higher, and so it is far less subject to defensive effects. CAR generates roughly 6 projectiles per second, so defense comes into play 6 times, while Shadowbeam Staff fires about 4 times a second, so it is only subject to defense 4 times. Of course, it pierces, so it could be theoretically coming into play 12 times, but that is tripling its damage output in the first place. So a raw DPS comparison between the two is not the best way to look at them.

However, more importantly, I think CAR is (or was) one of the most broken weapons in the game. Not in any overt way like Stormbow/Holy Arrows, but in an insidious way that, in my opinion, completely derailed Ranged weapon balance going all the way back to 1.1. CAR, in tandem with Crystal Bullets, deals some pretty intense DPS. And so, Megashark had to be an upgrade on it.

Except . . . CAR is a WoF drop, and if you compare it to its peers (Breaker Blade and Laser Rifle), its on an entirely different level of potency. It does, or did, more DPS than quite a few post-mech weapons. And because of this, it set the stage for years to come, because "If Megashark has to be an upgrade, then so on and so forth", which led to a TON of Ranged content just . . . doing way more damage than Melee and Magic. And it went like that, all the way up, until Moon Lord tier, where the trend is finally broken.

But the consequences of that are even more profound, because the difficulty of pretty much everything post-1.1 was likely balanced against this "high DPS ranged class", which further and further left Melee (and to a lesser extent, Magic) weapons flagging behind. And so in the end, the balance of weapons in all classes, as well as the difficulty of enemies and bosses, were inexorably sent off course because of the echoes of this initial balance discrepancy. And so, returning to my original point . . . using CAR as a basis for comparison on DPS matters is a very poor choice. It only serves to emphasize the potency of CAR (something I very slightly reduced in 1.4).

tl;dr - Leinfors believes that CAR being too strong in 1.1 led to 9 years of Class inequality and balance disparity that likely cannot be overcome

I mean, I did say comparable. A much more comparable source of DPS would be the Hallowed Repeater with Jester Arrows, which would actually deal more damage against both single and multiple enemies than Shadowbeam staff which suffers from a 0.8 damage multiplier every time its beam passes through an enemy, for some reason. I do agree that CAR is broken, however, that does not justify other weapons not being great in the first place. There is no reason for a weapon you unlock in Hardmode to have comparable damage with a weapon that you unlock in late Hardmode, particularly Shadowbeam staff which is literally the absolute worst weapon you can get from the Dungeon. I mean, even the Nettle Burst has comparable damage! (35*6 vs 53*60/16, or 210 DPS vs 198 DPS)
Against Plantera: (17*6 vs 35*60/16, or 102 DPS vs. 131 DPS: 294 seconds to kill Plantera vs 230 seconds, although admittedly no armor or accessories have been used in calculations.)
Meanwhile, Spirit Flame, unlockable in early Hardmode: 232 DPS, 182 DPS vs. Plantera, 165 seconds to kill Plantera.

And while we're at it, can I just complain at the hardmode dungeon overall providing you with lesser weapons compared to the ones you unlock post-Golem? You might say that Post-Golem and Post-Plantera are different tiers and therefore should differ, but I disagree. The problem lies in the fact Golem is such an easy cakewalk of a boss, and by the time you're looking for Plantera bulbs, you've probably found the Jungle Temple already. (looking for Chlorophyte helps that as well)

 

[qwerty3.14]

Th shadow beam staff need a buff, it has the same use time and damage as the hallowed repeater, a weapon you will inevitably get the materials for on your way to the shadow beam staff.
But the hallowed repeater gets and extra 10 damage from using jester's arrows, and jester's arrows don't have a super harsh damage drop off.

Or here's another comparison, the pulse bow, just like the shadow beam staff this weapon's projectiles bounce off of wall and it has a damage drop off. Although the pulse bow is a little slower than the shadow beam staff it's base damage is almost double when considering venom arrows. It's damage drop off is only 10% as opposed to the staff's 20% and it can hit the same enemy multiple times per shot.

Oh here's another weapon that does the shadowbeam staff's job better, the dart pistol, when using crystal darts it's base damage is almost as high as the shadowbeam staff, and it shoots a little slower... that's where the shadowbeam's advantages end. Crystal darts have a smart bounce to them, and they can hit the same target multiple times making them much more reliable then trying to bounce the shadowbeam around. And get this... they have no damage drop off. It gets to the point where once you start hitting 4 targets the dart pistol does more dps than the shadow beam staff, and despite having infinite piercing there is really no point after that which the shadow beam staff will out perform the dart pistol dues to the damage drop off.

 

[Leinfors]

I mean, I did say comparable. A much more comparable source of DPS would be the Hallowed Repeater with Jester Arrows, which would actually deal more damage against both single and multiple enemies than Shadowbeam staff which suffers from a 0.8 damage multiplier every time its beam passes through an enemy, for some reason.

Shadowbeam Protocol, as I now call it (piercing weapons that do decreasing amounts of damage per target hit) are, in my opinion, one of the best things to ever come to the world of balancing. It was first utilized on the Shadowbeam Staff, and its likely as a result of that that the final result missed the mark somewhat. But its ultimately used to get a better balance between single target and multi-target functionality. Otherwise you end up with Stake Launcher situations, super high piercing potential and negligible performance.

I'll also point out that Shadowbeam Staff USED to be much better than Spectre Staff. Spectre Staff just drew all the attention, because it managed to be even worse, until I buffed it. Only natural that there are second string reviews that are ultimately made in light of such changes. A lot of people are throwing around comparisons like Hallowed Repeater, etc . . . these comparisons are only valid BECAUSE of previous said buffs, to weapons which were previously underwhelming. Its an iterative process.

I do agree that CAR is broken, however, that does not justify other weapons not being great in the first place.

Not saying it does, more that saying "Such and such weapon is worse than CAR" does not justify that weapon being buffed either.

There is no reason for a weapon you unlock in Hardmode to have comparable damage with a weapon that you unlock in late Hardmode, particularly Shadowbeam staff which is literally the absolute worst weapon you can get from the Dungeon. I mean, even the Nettle Burst has comparable damage! (35*6 vs 53*60/16, or 210 DPS vs 198 DPS)
Against Plantera: (17*6 vs 35*60/16, or 102 DPS vs. 131 DPS: 294 seconds to kill Plantera vs 230 seconds, although admittedly no armor or accessories have been used in calculations.)
Meanwhile, Spirit Flame, unlockable in early Hardmode: 232 DPS, 182 DPS vs. Plantera, 165 seconds to kill Plantera.

Weapons with Group-damage potential are balanced differently than single target weapons. Comparing the single target damage of a weapon like Shadowbeam staff to the single target damage of a weapon like Spirit Flame is not a valid comparison, IMO.

I'm not saying Shadowbeam Staff can't/won't be changed, but these are not compelling arguments for such. Usability/miscellaneous function is a balancing element, and Shadowbeam Staff is a hitscan ranged weapon with piercing and bounce spam that increases its ability to hit enemies. Its "usability" is very high, and there will be difficult to use weapons that perform better sometimes, in contrast, even earlier in the game.

And while we're at it, can I just complain at the hardmode dungeon overall providing you with lesser weapons compared to the ones you unlock post-Golem? You might say that Post-Golem and Post-Plantera are different tiers and therefore should differ, but I disagree. The problem lies in the fact Golem is such an easy cakewalk of a boss, and by the time you're looking for Plantera bulbs, you've probably found the Jungle Temple already. (looking for Chlorophyte helps that as well)

HM Dungeon is pre-Golem. Golem himself may throw a wrench in that concept, but that is the intended progression. HM Dungeon is an optional biome that can be explored prior to Golem, and so it is balanced before Golem, not after. And I do not see that ever changing.

 

[nadomodan]

Shadowbeam Staff's total DPS against an infinite number of enemies (after cutting the minimum 1 damage) is lower than The Eye of Cthulhu's DPS against one enemy, and many other weapons from similar or lower tier

 

[qwerty3.14]

A lot of people are throwing around comparisons like Hallowed Repeater, etc . . . these comparisons are only valid BECAUSE of previous said buffs, to weapons which were previously underwhelming. Its an iterative process.

Alright fine then... let's pretend this is 1.3

The shadow beam staff is a post plantera crowd control weapon, and despite this it underperforms against an 'underwhelming' pre plantera weapon the hallowed repeater, when using jester's arrows the hallowed repeater has the same base damage as the shadow beam staff. Now granted the shadowbeam staff does fire a bit faster meaning its single target damage is better than the repetaer... however these are crowd control weapons and when used for crowd control the shadow beam's harsh damage drop off makes it worse then the hallowed repeater in most situations you'd want a crowd control weapon in.

Oh and there's also the pulse bow this weapon has a noteably higher base damage than the shadow beam staff when using ammo, this compensates for its lower fire rate, it can also hit the same target multiple times and its damage drop off is less severe, 10% instead of 20%.

And then there's the dart pistol, now I know this weapon is know to be a bit overpowered and will probably be nerfed in journey's end but this is a pre mech weapon surely the shadowbeam staff must blow this thing out of the water?. Well when using crystal darts it is both slower and does less damage than the shadow beam staff. That's an uphill battle, but I'd argue that it's lack of damage drop off and smart bouncing make it a far more reliable weapon. In fact once you start hitting 5 targets the damage drop off of the staff causes it to have less dps than the dart pistol. Despite having infinite piercing the damage drop off of the staff means it doesn't recover after that 5 target threshold.

 

[a31337]

Shadowbeam Protocol, as I now call it (piercing weapons that do decreasing amounts of damage per target hit) are, in my opinion, one of the best things to ever come to the world of balancing. It was first utilized on the Shadowbeam Staff, and its likely as a result of that that the final result missed the mark somewhat. But its ultimately used to get a better balance between single target and multi-target functionality. Otherwise you end up with Stake Launcher situations, super high piercing potential and negligible performance.

I'll also point out that Shadowbeam Staff USED to be much better than Spectre Staff. Spectre Staff just drew all the attention, because it managed to be even worse, until I buffed it. Only natural that there are second string reviews that are ultimately made in light of such changes. A lot of people are throwing around comparisons like Hallowed Repeater, etc . . . these comparisons are only valid BECAUSE of previous said buffs, to weapons which were previously underwhelming. Its an iterative process.




Not saying it does, more that saying "Such and such weapon is worse than CAR" does not justify that weapon being buffed either.



Weapons with Group-damage potential are balanced differently than single target weapons. Comparing the single target damage of a weapon like Shadowbeam staff to the single target damage of a weapon like Spirit Flame is not a valid comparison, IMO.

I'm not saying Shadowbeam Staff can't/won't be changed, but these are not compelling arguments for such. Usability/miscellaneous function is a balancing element, and Shadowbeam Staff is a hitscan ranged weapon with piercing and bounce spam that increases its ability to hit enemies. Its "usability" is very high, and there will be difficult to use weapons that perform better sometimes, in contrast, even earlier in the game.



HM Dungeon is pre-Golem. Golem himself may throw a wrench in that concept, but that is the intended progression. HM Dungeon is an optional biome that can be explored prior to Golem, and so it is balanced before Golem, not after. And I do not see that ever changing.

Shadowbeam Protocol only seems to affect the Shadowbeam staff and Luminite bullets, with the latter having a 0.96 multiplier instead of the Shadowbeam's 0.8. Correct me if I'm wrong. The issue stems from the fact Terraria has no invasions that progress the game in the way single target bosses do (The Destroyer and the world evil bosses are an exception because they are bosses with multiple segments you can hit, but you don't have a lot of infinite piercing choices when you fight them). The game is balanced around single bosses being the primary goal of the game, and the only time you will be able to actually hit enemies in a straight line is in a mob farm with a completely flat surface. And players don't usually build mob farms on their first playthroughs.
Overall you will mostly focus your damage on the enemy nearest to you, as opposed to everyone, because the one closest to you is the most dangerous.

The Shadowbeam staff is really only useful in the post-Plantera dungeon where there are a lot of walls, but even then the beam it spawns can only hit an enemy once, no matter how many times it bounces in the enemy (I checked). It is too weak to use in the post-Plantera invasions. And I am throwing around these comparisons because said weapons have been buffed while the Shadowbeam staff didn't receive one, even though it needs one. The very least it could get is its damage factor being increased from 0.8 to 0.9, because as of right now enemy defense will affect it just as much as CAR's. It can only pierce through 11 enemies with 0 defense, 3 to 4 more with adequate stats.

 

[Leinfors]

Shadowbeam Protocol only seems to affect the Shadowbeam staff and Luminite bullets, with the latter having a 0.96 multiplier instead of the Shadowbeam's 0.8. Correct me if I'm wrong. The issue stems from the fact Terraria has no invasions that progress the game in the way single target bosses do (The Destroyer and the world evil bosses are an exception because they are bosses with multiple segments you can hit, but you don't have a lot of infinite piercing choices when you fight them). The game is balanced around single bosses being the primary goal of the game, and the only time you will be able to actually hit enemies in a straight line is in a mob farm with a completely flat surface. And players don't usually build mob farms on their first playthroughs.

Shadowbeam Protocol is currently used on quite a few projectiles.

Shadowbeam Staff and Luminite Bullets (as you indicated), Luminite Arrows, Pulse Bow, Poison/Venom Staff, Flamethrower/Elf Melter, Sergeant United Shield, All 8 Whips, Nightglow, and Phantom Phoenix's "Phoenix" projectile. I might be missing one or two, as well.

It may well end up on a few more before we are out, as well, as I said, its a very useful balancing tool. It can be used as a counterweight to buff otherwise weak multitarget weapons, and also as a nerfing tool for reducing weapons that do too much piercing damage.

Alright fine then... let's pretend this is 1.3

The shadow beam staff is a post plantera crowd control weapon, and despite this it underperforms against an 'underwhelming' pre plantera weapon the hallowed repeater, when using jester's arrows the hallowed repeater has the same base damage as the shadow beam staff.

You trying to convince me that Jester Arrow's need a nerf? It sounds like you are.

Oh and there's also the pulse bow this weapon has a noteably higher base damage than the shadow beam staff when using ammo, this compensates for its lower fire rate, it can also hit the same target multiple times and its damage drop off is less severe, 10% instead of 20%.

Pulse Bow's damage was buffed in 1.4, but its Shadowbeam Protocol was increased to 20%, actually. If relevant.

 

[SsIras]

Shadowbeam Protocol is currently used on quite a few projectiles.

Shadowbeam Staff and Luminite Bullets (as you indicated), Luminite Arrows, Pulse Bow, Poison/Venom Staff, Flamethrower/Elf Melter, Sergeant United Shield, All 8 Whips, Nightglow, and Phantom Phoenix's "Phoenix" projectile. I might be missing one or two, as well.

It may well end up on a few more before we are out, as well, as I said, its a very useful balancing tool. It can make weapons better, if used correctly.

Hey, shouldn't it be applied to Stake Launcher now. Like you said, Stake Launcher is in a weird place, it can be used somewhat well against lined up enemies but it's a bad weapon overall because it sucks on a single target.
I think it did be fair to make it better against one target (specifically flying targets), but considerably worse at piercing many enemies.

 

[Leinfors]

Hey, shouldn't it be applied to Stake Launcher now. Like you said, Stake Launcher is in a weird place, it can be used somewhat well against lined up enemies but it's a bad weapon overall because it sucks on a single target.
I think it did be fair to make it better against one target (specifically flying targets), but considerably worse at piercing many enemies.

Just because I HAVEN'T listed exact changes I have on my proposal list doesn't mean you have to spoil it for me

 

[a31337]

Shadowbeam Protocol is currently used on quite a few projectiles.

Shadowbeam Staff and Luminite Bullets (as you indicated), Luminite Arrows, Pulse Bow, Poison/Venom Staff, Flamethrower/Elf Melter, Sergeant United Shield, All 8 Whips, Nightglow, and Phantom Phoenix's "Phoenix" projectile. I might be missing one or two, as well.

It may well end up on a few more before we are out, as well, as I said, its a very useful balancing tool. It can be used as a counterweight to buff otherwise weak multitarget weapons, and also as a nerfing tool for reducing weapons that do too much piercing damage.



You trying to convince me that Jester Arrow's need a nerf? It sounds like you are.



Pulse Bow's damage was buffed in 1.4, but its Shadowbeam Protocol was increased to 20%, actually. If relevant.

I'd ask for a nerf on Jester arrows but the 10 tick invincibility fixes that problem for me because the ammunition is totally unusable on multishot weapons like Shotbow or Tsunami.

 

[qwerty3.14]

You trying to convince me that Jester Arrow's need a nerf? It sounds like you are.

Actually... yes! That would help give the stake launcher an advantage over the hallowed repeater.
Even in 1.2 before the shadowbeam protocal was added the staff was barely an upgrade over the hallowed repeater(outside of triggering a certain overpowered set bonus but that was the armor's problem).

Pulse Bow's damage was buffed in 1.4, but its Shadowbeam Protocol was increased to 20%, actually. If relevant.

Yes I know it was buffed in 1.4 which is why I was pointing out that the pulse bow was better than the shadow beam staff in 1.3, and despite this the bow got buffed and the staff did not.


I understand the point of the damage dropoff but 20% seems a bit too harsh, lower to say 10% and then apply it to jester's arrows and crystal darts.

The base damage of the shadowbeam staff should also be buffed to say 70. I know that's a big increase but this is a post plantera weapon it should have some noteable advantages over its pre mech counterparts.

 

[Mail]

Wouldn't it make more sense for the Shadowbeam Protocol to apply damage reduction after defense so it can have more consistent results on weapons with lower attack values?

Right now it quickly drops to 1's when hitting a lot of enemies, instead of having a smooth decline in damage values.

If you do it after defense you can more easily estimate how much total damage hitting an infinite number of the same type of enemies would deal.

for example:
Shadowbeam: sum 0.8^n from 0 to infinity = 5x whatever damage dealt to the first enemy (after defense).
luminite bullets = sum 0.96^n from 0 to infinity = 25x whatever damage dealt to the first enemy (after defense).

Reducing damage before defense makes balancing this more difficult and extremely sensitive to enemy defense values.

It's interesting that the Shadowbeam staff could have been allowed to hit a single enemy an unlimited number of times and still be fairly balanced.

For a "pre-click"?
I think this is a hard no, because this is not a minor balance tweak (which is the scope of this entire thread), but a heavy overhaul to the functionality of dozens of weapons, with untold potential bug impact which would take significant amounts of time to test for.

Its not something that could be tried internally because it IS a difficult change. "I don't think pre-clicks should be that difficult of a change" - well, that is inaccurate. Terraria was not coded that way, its foundations are not so easily changed. I even asked Yorai, and he indicates that it would be a very complex code task likely with a ton of consequences that would need to be tested for. Its not something he can just "turn on really quickly for me to test". It would take substantial amounts of his time just to make it work, and THEN I'd have to test it.

Typically speaking, 90-95% of the changes that fall within the scope of this thread are very simple stat adjustment changes. Part of the conditions of that scope is my own skill level: balance changes made here are almost exclusively done by me, so that it does not detract from the work load of the more skilled coders. Stat changes and minor adjustments = easy to do, quick to do, they do not slow down development/bug fixing. Fundamental overhauls to the game's functionality = takes a long time, can only be done by Red/Yorai, creates tons of bugs, requires tons of testing time. That's why I usually advocate for simpler, cleaner solutions instead of complex ones. Because if I can personally solve a problem just by changing one number in 5 minutes, I'd rather do that than watch Yorai spend a 10 hours rewriting code and then another 10 fixing bugs that stem from said changes.



Now, if the question is "autofire for everything", that is a hard no because this is how Red made it. We might not have designed the game around lack of autoswing in the first place, knowing what we know, but its too ingrained in the current balance of the game and how much of it was designed to just be arbitrarily changed right now.

The presence of autoclickers is what it is. If people want to use external tools, cheats, file editors or the like . . . that is up to them. We aren't going to redesign the game to counter that.

My general feeling is that most of the smaller value adjustments can easily be done via mods once support arrives for the latest version, so resolving issues that require digging a bit deeper into the code are of higher value to the community in the long term.

This is probably our last chance to make single fire weapons not feel awkward and inconsistent to use. Any mitigation for this that you can offer, no matter how small, would improve player experience greatly, so please consider taking any action rather than none if possible.

 

[CrabBar]

tl;dr - Leinfors believes that CAR being too strong in 1.1 led to 9 years of Class inequality and balance disparity that likely cannot be overcome

You trying to convince me that Jester Arrow's need a nerf? It sounds like you are.

That only confirms my fears (as dramatically as it sounds) that ammo played insane role in making Ranger go ahead of any other class.
Both the fact of flat damage increase, that is especially impactful on low damage weapons like infamous CAR, and that every weapon gets all the control possibilities from special ammo effects. AoE, high single damage, debuffs, higher comfort of shooting, in one flask inventory.
For such a wide field of utility and high comfort of attacks (high velocity and range) ranged weapons should have been burdened by insanely low universal damage output (so you would have to pick ammo and weapon carefully for each encounter), but not only it is not the case currently, it likely wouldn't become a thing even theoretically because that'll just feel lame to players, after all the former glory and in general.

Aside from nerf to damage of most ammo types there isn't much to be achieved without major overhaul, and it's doubtful even that will happen given potential massive backlash.
Rather pensive realization.

Jester Arrows should get a definite nerf though, agreed. Maybe shadowbeam protocol (without compensation) for them will work, but then unholy arrows will be dominant, those need to be managed as well (for example, 5 to 3 pierce)

 

[JohannSimm]

Not in any overt way like Stormbow/Holy Arrows

Typically speaking, 90-95% of the changes that fall within the scope of this thread are very simple stat adjustment changes. Part of the conditions of that scope is my own skill level: balance changes made here are almost exclusively done by me, so that it does not detract from the work load of the more skilled coders. Stat changes and minor adjustments = easy to do, quick to do, they do not slow down development/bug fixing. Fundamental overhauls to the game's functionality = takes a long time, can only be done by Red/Yorai, creates tons of bugs, requires tons of testing time. That's why I usually advocate for simpler, cleaner solutions instead of complex ones. Because if I can personally solve a problem just by changing one number in 5 minutes, I'd rather do that than watch Yorai spend a 10 hours rewriting code and then another 10 fixing bugs that stem from said changes.

Here's my suggestion: Have the first two arrows fired by the Daedalus Stormbow be of the ammunition type, but have the remaining arrows be "energy arrows" that copy their damage from the arrows used but without their special bonuses. Then the bow's base damage could be buffed again, possibly even relative to its original value. With this change, the weapon would work better with multiple varieties of arrows, and would be less reliant on exploiting overpowered effects.

I think such a change would allow for a lot more flexibility in fine-tuning the weapon, so I hope it's considered. (I know mechanical overhauls are beyond the scope of this thread, but as far as they go I don't think this one is the most complex, at least on paper.)

I'd like to ask about the viability of implementing this suggestion I made earlier. I'm not satisfied with the current nerf to Deadalus Stormbow. The current fix feels clunky and unintuitive. But most of all, it wasn't enough. The arrows have been reduced, but the Deadalus Stormbow still shreds the Destroyer with Holy Arrows, because of the whopping multiplier still remaning. The overpowered interaction has been diminished without actually being solved – more of a bandaid on the issue than an actual fix. The interaction still hamstrings the weapon, because any buffs made to it will just feed the overpowered interaction. It's held back from being a better weapon because of one situation where it's obscenely overpowered, reducing it to a one-trick pony.

I feel like the solution I've proposed can potentially solve all of these issues, and allow its general performance to be improved. I think that if all but one of the arrows fired each shot by the Deadalus Stormbow were special arrows that just copied damage/velocity/knockback, and ignored unique properties like piercing (and the Holy Arrow's stars), it would be a far better change. (These special arrows could resemble pink arrows of hard light.) The Electrosphere Launcher and Celebration already do this with rockets. This change would allow the Deadalus Stormbow to have its own identity as a weapon without relying on overpowered interactions.

There is no middle ground of balance when you are working with huge fixed damage values like the Holy Arrows. Because of the Holy Arrows interaction, the bow's damage has to be held back, because the bow's damage just adds to the overpowered values being multiplied. But my proposed change sidesteps this issue completely. This way there is no overpowered effect being multiplied, and the bow's damage can be properly balanced around itself. The Holy Arrows / Jester Arrows interaction will be nerfed even further without affecting the weapon's general balance. It allows the number of arrows for all ammunition to be 3-4, without giving unwarranted boosts to overpowered ammunition. It's a much cleaner solution, which I believe would allow it to be more precisely balanced.

The cons are that it would likely require a new arrow sprite (even if only a recolour), and it would take some time to adjust the weapon's code. It's certainly not something that can be done by adjusting a few values. It will likely take substantial testing. Still, I don't think there's any simpler solution that can vanquish the overpowered interaction, and it's a much cleaner and more intuitive fix that what we have now. It would be excellent if such a change could be implemented in 1.4.1 along with the other minor additions.

 

[J Bame]

Now that we are at it, list of stuff that could get Shadowbeam Protocol applied to them:

* 20% falloff on Jester's Arrows. These have cheesed pre-Hardmode for far too long.
* 15-20% to Crystal Darts, preferably also applied after bouncing off a block. Probably still cheeses caves but not so easily after this.
* 25-30% falloff to Nimbus Rod. Big numbers there but due to the way this weapon works this just means it won't delete Worm enemies (Destroyer) from the game like it does now. Everywhere else it shouldn't be that impactful of a nerf.
* 5-10% for Water Bolt. Should be noted that this affects its single target DPS as well.
* 10-15% for Shadowflame Hex Doll, Magical Harp, Aqua Scepter and Candy Corn Rifle. In their current state these are not weapons that need a nerf; the falloff here makes it easier to then improve their single target DPS without also breaking them against crowds.

 

[a31337]

Now that we are at it, list of stuff that could get Shadowbeam Protocol applied to them:

* 20% falloff on Jester's Arrows. These have cheesed pre-Hardmode for far too long.
* 15-20% to Crystal Darts, preferably also applied after bouncing off a block. Probably still cheeses caves but not so easily after this.
* 25-30% falloff to Nimbus Rod. Big numbers there but due to the way this weapon works this just means it won't delete Worm enemies (Destroyer) from the game like it does now. Everywhere else it shouldn't be that impactful of a nerf.
* 5-10% for Water Bolt. Should be noted that this affects its single target DPS as well.
* 10-15% for Shadowflame Hex Doll, Magical Harp, Aqua Scepter and Candy Corn Rifle. In their current state these are not weapons that need a nerf; the falloff here makes it easier to then improve their single target DPS without also breaking them against crowds.

What about bees?

 

[marulok]

I know on-fire has been discu before, but can I just throw in my idea to make it viable for everyone? What if on-fire, frostburn, (All of the DoT debuffs) didn't have a fixed rate of damage and instead dealt percentage based damage? For example, we have an enemy with 100 hp, and every damage tick deals 2 damage (2%) per tick. We have a hardmode enemy with 1000 hp, and the on-fire deals 20 damage per tick. Bosses will obviously have to be given immunity/ have the fraction of health reduced exclusively, but the DoT's would finally have a use and not be broken early-game. I don't know how much effort it will take to make, so that could be a problem. I'm assuming that since keybrand is a thing, enemies have a maxhealth variable, and that would hopefully make testing or implementing this possible?

 

[qwerty3.14]

What about bees?

I don't think bees are a good fit, if you have 10 bees attacking the same target you don't want your oldest bee doing almost no damage and causing iFrames preventing your young bees from doing damage.

 

[Leinfors]

Here's my suggestion: Have the first two arrows fired by the Daedalus Stormbow be of the ammunition type, but have the remaining arrows be "energy arrows" that copy their damage from the arrows used but without their special bonuses. Then the bow's base damage could be buffed again, possibly even relative to its original value. With this change, the weapon would work better with multiple varieties of arrows, and would be less reliant on exploiting overpowered effects.

For whatever reason, back when we were initially reviewing Stormbow (in 2019), the idea of Stormbow-specific projectiles (like Blood Rain Bow) was rejected. It was one of the very first ideas we had for resolving the weapon, and it was not approved.

Do I think Holy/Daedalus is truly resolved to a perfect degree? No. Its still insanely powerful, and that is despite a truly profound nerf. Did you know that current Holy/Daedalus deals a maximum possible damage of around 25-30% of what it used to be able to deal? A 75% nerf is about as sledgehammer as it gets. And yet its still really strong.

But the thing is, after a certain point, I think I have to just let it go. How badly do I have to nerf it before its "okay"? 80%? 90%? Sometimes, if it takes a 75% nerf and its still OP, then maybe I just need to accept that we messed up and leave it alone, and let people have a really good build. I'm probably not likely to be making many, if any, more Stormbow-centric adjustments.

I know on-fire has been discu before, but can I just throw in my idea to make it viable for everyone? What if on-fire, frostburn, (All of the DoT debuffs) didn't have a fixed rate of damage and instead dealt percentage based damage? For example, we have an enemy with 100 hp, and every damage tick deals 2 damage (2%) per tick. We have a hardmode enemy with 1000 hp, and the on-fire deals 20 damage per tick. Bosses will obviously have to be given immunity/ have the fraction of health reduced exclusively, but the DoT's would finally have a use and not be broken early-game. I don't know how much effort it will take to make, so that could be a problem. I'm assuming that since keybrand is a thing, enemies have a maxhealth variable, and that would hopefully make testing or implementing this possible?

Percentage based damage doesn't really work. It would act as an effective nerf at lower levels (unneeded) but would have shockingly high DPS output at upper levels. Even a 1% DoT could do hundreds of damage to certain enemies, but against a Possessed Armor, it would be doing 1-2, which would be a nerf to some of even the strongest DoTs.

The implementation is probably doable, code-wise, but it doesn't work from a balance perspective. And IMO, its far too significant of a complete overhaul to DoT mechanics to make at the last second.