Weapons & Equip Summoner Revamped

[Jostabeere]

Some Rando? Not quite.

You are a random user to me, I am a random user to you.

Pre 1.4 I played Expert mode all the time. Did literally everything had everything in the game, all done solo. I even went so far as to get the best modifier for every weapon in the game, even prehardmode stuff that I wasn't using in hardmode. Now I only play Master Mode 1.4

How far are you into master mode and have you ever touched for the worthy paired with master?
How long did it take you to finish master pre-hardmode and which classes did you play to defeat bosses?

I hate to say it but I have a hard time relating to your logic. Statements like " If you want it, go farm Slime Staffs or Finch Staffs" make me think like you either:

- Did not read what I typed or
- Did not read what I typed

It contradicts everything I previously mentioned. Time spent getting things and what they are worth when you get them. One of the main core aspects of all games. The reward you get for the time you invest. Yes, it's not always something material but I have a hard time finding accomplishment in killing a billion slimes or creating new worlds to find Living Trees because the one I play in didn't spawn with one.

See what I just did there? Nothing. Because you will find a way to try and prove that wrong or brush it aside as a mere opinion.

I did read it. I did comprehend it. I know about the risk and reward mechanic. Which applies partially here. We have so many options in this game compared to other RPGs. If I play a ranger in let's say PoE or Grim Dawn, I need to farm a boss for a specific, class-based item.
In Terraria I farm a boss once and get a drop off of him. I can simply switch my armor and play a different class to farm him or progress through the ladder.
You are basically saying what I did.
You say you do not think it's worth your time to farm a Slime Staff or a Finch Staff. So you do the most obvious thing, and farm literally anything else that is worth the time for you. Because obviously a Slime Staff is worthless to you.
Same for the Frog staff. If you want it, it has worth to you. So you farm for it, no matter how long it takes. It you don't want to farm for it, it has no worth to you.

 

[Banmei]

True. But the want is for items that aren't worthless. I'm not going to get into a competition with you over who has the biggest balls. You win if that makes you happy. 1.4 Rebalance was only slightly done. Another example Copper Shortswords can now swing in multiple directions. In Master mode it is instant garbage. How about the Chain Knife? Bat scepter? Any hardmode ore melee weapon?

Back on topic. Summoners and summoner items. There is a desire to play a summoner near the beginning of the game. There is a desire to play like this on Expert/Master mode. Yes this is possible but not without extremely rare luck or enough hours, literally hours, to go by before you aren't hitting and running like a little girl. The summoners growth is exponential unlike the others which maintain a more linear growth.

You don't just argue with me. Many other people feel the same way about this. Unless you are one of the people who helped create 1.4 and are deeply disturbed that your creation, in the sense of item rebalance, hasn't delivered as advertised then you are just here to argue. That's not why I am doing this. It is to bring awareness that there still is work to be done. Improvement for some of the things that have been neglected for many, many years.

 

[Unit One]

A reminder for all here that combative disagreements that poke at the other member in a contentious manner, instead of focusing on a civil debate, is not what we want here in the Suggestions forums.

This should be a spot to present opinions about the suggestion in this thread’s topic, but it seems to be derailing into a jabbing match. Let’s stick to debating the topic, in a civil way, and not being hostile to other members (no matter how poorly thought-out you may think their opinions are).

 

[QuartzTerrariaFan]

A reminder for all here that combative disagreements that poke at the other member in a contentious manner, instead of focusing on a civil debate, is not what we want here in the Suggestions forums.

This should be a spot to present opinions about the suggestion in this thread’s topic, but it seems to be derailing into a jabbing match. Let’s stick to debating the topic, in a civil way, and not being hostile to other members (no matter how poorly thought-out you may think their opinions are).

Thank you for pointing this out, I just found a simple thread of suggestion turning into a flame war ( I don't know if being hyperbolic on this one ). A tad like " over reactive ". I am glad you read the post though.

 

[ledocteur7]

for me their is three thing that need to change :
first, buff of all summoner armor to give them at least the same defense as mage/ranger armor, seriously why so low ?? I really don't understand why their isn't even a single mod that boost summoner defense !
second, buff all summon damage (not a lot just a little bit) and give them working AI with good range.
third, whips. why even bothering giving summoner new weapon if it's to give us less range and damage than melee player ?? WE NOT EVEN HAVE A THIRD OF THE TANKINESS OF MELEE PLAYER ! THANKS RED !

 

[qwerty3.14]

for me their is three thing that need to change :
first, buff of all summoner armor to give them at least the same defense as mage/ranger armor, seriously why so low ?? I really don't understand why their isn't even a single mod that boost summoner defense !

The defense difference really doesn't make much of a difference especially in higher difficulties, a summoner using hallowed armor is way tankier than a ranger in shroomite.
You could also use a valhalla chestpiece or squire helm if you want more survivability, the regen the provide is still really strong and they still provide some summon stats.

second, buff all summon damage (not a lot just a little bit) and give them working AI with good range.

It feels like every minion is either too weak or too overpowered.
I'd argue that the: spider staff, sanguine staff, xeno staff, terraprisma, stardust dragon staff actually need nerfs not buffs.
Also a flat damage increase won't fix the iFrame issues that some summons like the imp staff, optic scepter and deadly spheres have. If you're using these summons there basicly no reason to use summoner gear as they already reach max hitrate with your 3 free summon slots.

third, whips. why even bothering giving summoner new weapon if it's to give us less range and damage than melee player ?? WE NOT EVEN HAVE A THIRD OF THE TANKINESS OF MELEE PLAYER ! THANKS RED !

Whips should never be your primary weapon (unless it's the firecracker) whips are a weapon you pull out every once in a while to boost your summons then switch back to your main weapon.

 

[ledocteur7]

for the defense, yes some armor are equivalent to their equivalent but a lot still need a buff, maybe it would not change as much for general use but in boss fight it's really important (maybe not in master mode but you know what I mean) and even if you use a long range weapon you still need to be close to the boss for your summon to work properly, for the minions, terraprisma is extremely hard to obtain as a pure summoner (lack of defense and attack) and is considered as the zenith of summoner so it's make sense that it is "overpowered" (it's nearly not as powerful as zenith but that not the point of it) for the whips, obviously it's not useful as a main weapon but the point of the summoner "buff" in 1.4 was to make it a playable class in itself, and clearly pure summoner is still way to hard to be consider a stand alone class.

 

[Dapling]

for the defense, yes some armor are equivalent to their equivalent but a lot still need a buff, maybe it would not change as much for general use but in boss fight it's really important (maybe not in master mode but you know what I mean) and even if you use a long range weapon you still need to be close to the boss for your summon to work properly, for the minions, terraprisma is extremely hard to obtain as a pure summoner (lack of defense and attack) and is considered as the zenith of summoner so it's make sense that it is "overpowered" (it's nearly not as powerful as zenith but that not the point of it) for the whips, obviously it's not useful as a main weapon but the point of the summoner "buff" in 1.4 was to make it a playable class in itself, and clearly pure summoner is still way to hard to be consider a stand alone class.

Defense is only useful in Normal mode, and even then most options with the highest defense are outclassed by others. Palladium is still tankier than Titanium, Crimson is still tankier than Molten, and Hallowed is still tankier than everything except Beetle, Solar, and Valhalla Knight armors. Summoner's defense is the least of it's concerns.

 

[qwerty3.14]

for the whips, obviously it's not useful as a main weapon but the point of the summoner "buff" in 1.4 was to make it a playable class in itself, and clearly pure summoner is still way to hard to be consider a stand alone class.

Considering how whips have terrible range and damage output on thier own I don't think whips are inteded to replace other weapons, thier purpose is to spread tag debuffs to boost your summons and the switch back to your main weapon. I don't care about making 'pure' summoner viable, summoner is a plenty strong class as long as you don't put pointless restrictions on yourself.

Like... if I make a character who uses spooky armor a papyrus scarab, and a necrotic scroll then summons a horde of ufo's to help fight, they don't suddenly stop being a summoner just by pulling out a tsunami.

 

[Banmei]

Defense is only useful in Normal mode, and even then most options with the highest defense are outclassed by others. Palladium is still tankier than Titanium, Crimson is still tankier than Molten, and Hallowed is still tankier than everything except Beetle, Solar, and Valhalla Knight armors. Summoner's defense is the least of it's concerns.

I have to debunk this. Somewhere somehow even back during Expert mode a myth started about defense being worthless. It carried over into master mode and now people are complaining about getting on hit killed by cactuses and boulders. I've gotten nailed by both and have lived with a decent amount of health remaining. Why? Defense. I still use warding.

You could state your preference in that your style works better with no warding and other modifiers instead of warding. But to say defense is not useful in Expert/Master mode is untrue.

 

[Dapling]

I have to debunk this. Somewhere somehow even back during Expert mode a myth started about defense being worthless. It carried over into master mode and now people are complaining about getting on hit killed by cactuses and boulders. I've gotten nailed by both and have lived with a decent amount of health remaining. Why? Defense. I still use warding.

You could state your preference in that your style works better with no warding and other modifiers instead of warding. But to say defense is not useful in Expert/Master mode is untrue.

I don’t get hit by rolling cactuses, they are generally far more predictable than boulders and you can even plan around them and use them to kill enemies. I have a hunch the only reason people have problems with them is because they are still new to the underground desert and don’t realize that they shouldn’t be ignored until the last second.

You definitely could make a valid case for it having a use in prehardmode because the percentage of damage blocked is that much greater and you don’t have much gear to avoid attacks, but later in the game you simply are better off not bothering focusing your build on it as you have so many options which outclass it. (Regeneration, damage reduction, heck, even dodging becomes so much more effective once than you have the gear for it, and you don’t even have to spend over a platinum on reforges and 5 accessory slots to get them.)

Edit: I also guess melee players end up depending on it because of how close to enemies they need to be to inflict any real damage.

 

[sharkman0101]

Edit: I also guess melee players end up depending on it because of how close to enemies they need to be to inflict any real damage.

Even then, I wouldn't go for Warding since the damage reduction is so minuscule later in the game. With enemies hitting over 200 damage for each hit, an extra 20 damage taken off of the hit probably won't even let you survive another hit. I primarily played Melee late into hardmode on Master Mode, where I mostly relied on the more-ranged options that Melee had. For normal mobs, Menacing is still more preferable since Melee weapons were capable enough of sweeping away enemies that rely on getting close to do damage. For bosses, I'd rather just kill the boss faster and not have to deal with dodging more attacks. For pre-hardmode on Master, the defensive bonuses are somewhat usable, I must admit.

However, for all of Classic and even maybe in early Hardmode on Expert, I'll also admit that Warding is also usable, maybe even better than Menacing in some situations.

 

[Banmei]

Here's a fine example why warding is king on Expert, haven't tried this on Master yet:

No end game armor, using all what's available up to this point. I could melee Plantera. When I say Melee I mean I would literally be right on top of her and didn't have to worry about dying. Most people I've seen have to make some sort of arena or something. I'd just tank up to max melee and kill her quicker and easier than the Golem.

You cannot do this without warding and max def armor.

 

[Dapling]

Here's a fine example why warding is king on Expert, haven't tried this on Master yet:

No end game armor, using all what's available up to this point. I could melee Plantera. When I say Melee I mean I would literally be right on top of her and didn't have to worry about dying. Most people I've seen have to make some sort of arena or something. I'd just tank up to max melee and kill her quicker and easier than the Golem.

You cannot do this without warding and max def armor.

What about with items that gave damage reduction or regeneration? Did you use those? Because those were probably helping you quite a bit.

And also, cheesing a boss with a method that can’t work for any other boss past that point doesn’t really prove anything. Besides, this whole argument started because I was explaining why giving summoner more defense wouldn’t help anything. Not melee.

 

[Banmei]

What about with items that gave damage reduction or regeneration? Did you use those? Because those were probably helping you quite a bit.

And also, cheesing a boss with a method that can’t work for any other boss past that point doesn’t really prove anything. Besides, this whole argument started because I was explaining why giving summoner more defense wouldn’t help anything. Not melee.

I think it's pertinent to the topic in that it points out that defense is useful and helps everything. Not that I think defense is what is lacking with the summoner.

You are correct and that damage reduction was also used. The point is arguing for defense in general and for warding. Def reduction is not a modifier. Even post 1.4 only armor I know of with dmg reduction is the turtle armor at which that point in the game it's one of the higher tiers for defense. If you want to count Duke Fishron, and slight variations for post-Golem bosses i'd say the suit itself was useful and remained useful up until the time of end game armor.

I still do wonder what the definition of cheesing is. I saw a video of some guy running around like a chicken fighting Empress of Light during the day using a ton of platforms and not getting hit. To me that looks like cheese. Not taking the bull by the horns and bull rushing your opponent.

 

[Dapling]

I still do wonder what the definition of cheesing is. I saw a video of some guy running around like a chicken fighting Empress of Light during the day using a ton of platforms and not getting hit. To me that looks like cheese. Not taking the bull by the horns and bull rushing your opponent.

That's... not how you play most classes. Only Melee needs to get close to their opponents to deal damage, so why wouldn't he have remained out of range? That's just a way to fight bosses, assuming that he wasn't just running in one direction and only slightly moving vertically, of course. Think of it this way, if you can just aim your arrows/bullets/spells freely and it makes no difference how far away you are, why would you need to rush towards your opponent? To me, standing in one place while a boss sits on you and you mindlessly slash it to pieces without even having to move is cheese because literally all of the input you need to do is hold down the mouse, and that's what it looked like you were describing to me.

The definition of cheesing to me is killing a boss when it requires almost zero effort from the player.

 

[Banmei]

I''ve used platform arenas once. Easiest time I ever fought that boss. I don't see how these platform arenas are considered non-cheese when you Super Mario around, and things like investing 10+ platinum plus a ton of time into gear is cheese. Difference of opinion I suppose. It's the comparison between those two I don't understand.

I agree bull rushing is not how you play most classes. This is not the discussion.

And no, I didn't stand in one place the entire time. I was flying and I did have to avoid the spikey balls she spits out. The bulk of the time I was right in her face.

Defense is useful. Always has been, and until they nerf it it always will be. You choose not to use it? That's fine. Different playstyle. But don't go spreading around nonsense that it is worthless when that is just not true.

 

[Dapling]

Defense is useful. Always has been, and until they nerf it it always will be. You choose not to use it? That's fine. Different playstyle. But don't go spreading around nonsense that it is worthless when that is just not true.

I never said it was worthless. I said it's not something you should invest too much into because there are options which are better.

And also, mobility accessories other than wings and boots are in the game for a reason. If you don't use them, you can probably expect to get hit and rely on defense more.

 

[Dragrath]

Defense is useful it is even viable in Master prehardmode (though soon after that the hardmode scaling kind of kills its potential leading to everything 1-2 hit KOing you) but Defense is very viable on Expert but that is not pertinent to the summoner discussion.
Summoners whether you like it or hate it Relogic has decided they are going to be squishy and at this point I don't see that changing. Yes Summoners really could use some more equipment options relative to the other classes but again the problem comes down to how summons operate and the general class philosophy of the game with classes really only being a way to separate what effects effect what weapons. Terraria doesn't have classes persay any class run is a self imposed challenge run and this hinders summoners more than other specializations. I think the only way to resolve this without breaking from Terraria's philosophy would be to enable scaling Summon effectiveness relative to the number of minions and or sentries a summoner has.