Terraria State of the Game - May 2022

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When you stack enough Defense on Master Mode you literally take 1 or single digit damage from mech boss attacks
Wow now that's a complete utter lie lol.
This is not how defense rating works in vanilla game. Without cheated in Worm Scarf effect in every slot this simply doesn't happen.
Everything I talk about assumes Master Mode.
X Doubt

Only thing i do believe is the Plantera Titanium Fetid Strat tho its inefficient and risky in regular MM progression play cause you need to stack gear and buffs that way so you hit as fast and as powerful so Plantera dies before you and not focus just on Defense.

I done this before it works but its far from optimal or OP in any way since its good only for 1 or 2 of the HM MM bosses. (If you are extra careful this strat can be done vs Destroyer too)

PS: Good luck fighting most HM MM events/invasions with these "true melee" , "facetanking" setups of yours and not getting flattened in matter of moments.
 
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Wow now that's a complete utter lie lol.
This is not how defense rating works in vanilla game. Without cheated in Worm Scarf effect in every slot this simply doesn't happen.
Well you're outright calling me a liar now, so you leave me with no choice.


Refer to the Eye of Cthulhu (3:17) and Mech bosses (9:50) sections in particular. If I wanted to in those clips I could have stacked defense harder especially considering Defense is exponential in effectiveness, like equipping Flesh Knuckles instead of leaning toward dodge chance with Brain of Confusion.

Only thing i do believe is the Plantera Titanium Fetid Strat tho its inefficient and risky in regular MM progression play cause you need to stack gear and buffs that way so you hit as fast and as powerful so Plantera dies before you and not focus just on Defense.
Setups in general need to stack gears to bring out their max potential. The Titanium facetank strategy is actually efficient to the point you can completely skip building a Plantera arena, for example.

PS: Good luck fighting most HM MM events/invasions with these "true melee" , "facetanking" setups of yours and not getting flattened in matter of moments.
Terra Blade w/ Whips is quite literally the best strategy in the game for Frost Moon and especially Pumpkin Moon, even on Master Mode. This has been found and proven by multiple people. It's the Mourning Wood and Pumpkings that are getting flattened.
 
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Those few times where a Ranger weapon is preferred for facetanking are outliers and nowadays it seems even Megashark + Crystal Bullets is slower than traditional Fetid for facetanking Plantera. Even something like Fiery Greatsword is a pretty good option to facetank Queen Bee because not only does it do solid close range DPS, but it kills all of the small bees coming out of her.
Not what I meant at all. You do realize it is possible to invest heavily in defensive stats without trying to actively be inside the enemy hitbox to deal damage? I would like you to wake up to the reality that other classes can wear defensive accessories and have Warding while still keeping a distance, as opposed to melee which generally can't outside of certain Hardmode weapons.
It doesn't matter if 90% of the options are horribly undertuned , those 10% remaining options and how some of them scale through Hardmode is enough to make "True melee" boringly strong considering how it functions in 1.4.3.
The original point of discussion was not whether true melee as a whole is unviable or not, it was about the sword reworks in 1.4.4. We don't know how good these new sword will be, maybe they might end up in the 90% of true melee weapons that are practically unusable.
 
Great stuff as always, Re-Logic! I'm especially looking forward to the changes in late-game melee, and it's nice to see the Hive Pack gaining some relevance in the later game!
 
Not what I meant at all. You do realize it is possible to invest heavily in defensive stats without trying to actively be inside the enemy hitbox to deal damage? I would like you to wake up to the reality that other classes can wear defensive accessories and have Warding while still keeping a distance, as opposed to melee which generally can't outside of certain Hardmode weapons.
Tanking and Facetanking are two different things.
You are talking about a defensive strategy, while Facetanking is an offensive strategy. "True melee" is relevant to the topic of weapons and offensive strategies, while defensive strategy and statements like "every class can wear defensive equipment" aren't really relevant here. It's not "True Melee is the only class that can tank", it's "True melee range weapons are naturally almost always the best choice to turn tanking into an offensive opportunity".
 
Well you're outright calling me a liar now, so you leave me with no choice.
"Recieves over 100 points of damage while face tanking Skele Prime and nearly dies" hmmmm.
When you stack enough Defense on Master Mode you literally take 1 or single digit damage from mech boss attacks.
You now see why i called you a liar?

I watched this entire video and you just proved my point how bad and unsafe "true melee" "face tanking" strat is compared to literally every other ranged DPS strat. Including your fails against Empress. Your usage of ranged attacks and keeping distance to flatout not die. You not using "True Melee" at all against Moon Lord you used a RANGED melee (which i said before are superior compared to "true melee")

Also your edits especially in Lunar event fights are very suspicious. Oh my it's almost as if you used ranged attacks for majority of the event and just used some of your "OP true melee" against stationary pillars ;)

You sir are full of Coal

Everything you shown in the video can be done better with Ranged or Ranged Melee DPS and with a lot less risk than "true meleeing" (which you didn't even fully commit to)

So much for "True Melee being OP"
 
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Well you're outright calling me a liar now, so you leave me with no choice.

Umm... leave you no choice but to post video evidence of you being wrong?

You were called a liar for claiming that the mech bosses do single-digit damage. Your video shows the mech bosses doing significantly more damage than that; so it does not support what you said.

Your build looks powerful though, so maybe just avoid hyperbole when trying to make a point. You can say that you find defence to be powerful without saying that it is game-breakly powerful. You can say that face-tanking tactics can be successful without saying that they are the best/fastest/most reliable. You can state your opinions without phrasing them as statement of absolute fact.
 
Umm... leave you no choice but to post video evidence of you being wrong?

You were called a liar for claiming that the mech bosses do single-digit damage. Your video shows the mech bosses doing significantly more damage than that; so it does not support what you said.
To be fair the main point that was intended to be conveyed there was the fact that defense can stack up enough to make mech bosses facetankable, it puts across the point of "true melee" being very powerful sufficiently enough.

Your build looks powerful though, so maybe just avoid hyperbole when trying to make a point. You can say that you find defence to be powerful without saying that it is game-breakly powerful.
I'll just point out that the ability to facetank itself is pretty game-breaking considering that just removes the main test of mid-combat skill in the game, i.e movement.

You sir are full of Coal

Everything you shown in the video can be done better with Ranged or Ranged Melee DPS and with a lot less risk than "true meleeing" (which you didn't even fully commit to)

So much for "True Melee being OP"
I would appreciate any evidence showing your claimed setups dealing more damage than stacking melee speed whips with terra blade
 
I would appreciate any evidence showing your claimed setups dealing more damage than stacking melee speed whips with terra blade
Can we stop talking about Terra Blade, it is most definitely not a true melee weapon. The insane DPS with the blade isn't the only thing contributing to its power, the beam actually does help a lot and enables it to one of the best choices for OOA and the lunar events. And if the only argument for why true melee in this game is gamebreakingly overpowered is a weapon that literally has very strong projectiles with effectively infinite range, then there really isn't much to back up that claim.
 
"Recieves over 100 points of damage while face tanking Skele Prime and nearly dies" hmmmm.
Look up what "cherrypicking" means because it's exactly what it means. But to entertain your argument, the fact that it takes getting hit repetitively by by far the second most damaging mech boss attack before nearly dying is actually strengthening my point if anything.

Not to mention that earlier in the post you're quoting I have specifically said most mech boss attacks:
[...]in seconds, including taking 1-5 damage from most Master mode mech bosses attack[...]



I watched this entire video and you just proved my point how bad and unsafe "true melee" "face tanking" strat is compared to literally every other ranged DPS strat.
Even though I take 1 or single digit damage from most boss attacks that I facetank, and proceed to kill them faster than almost if not all other builds in the respective tier? Answer me this, what is stronger? A build with far more survivability and almost always higher DPS, or a build with regular survivability and lower DPS when not facetanking?
Including your fails against Empress. Your usage ranged attacks and keeping distance to flatout not die. You not using "True Melee" at all against Moon Lord you used a RANGED melee (which i said before are superior compared to "true melee")
I don't remember saying that you could reasonably facetank every boss in the game, did I? Again, you're cherrypicking. My build in that video, mainly past Plantera, wasn't even particularly optimized at that point.

Since you want to argue about wording and semantics so much, answer me this too: If I wanted to imply that the facetank strategy works on all bosses, then why did I start mentioning specific boss names instead of just saying "all" or "every"?
Also your edits especially in Lunar event fights are very suspicious. Oh my it's almost as if you used ranged attacks for majority of the event and just used your some of your "OP true melee" against stationary pillars
For someone who claimed to have watched the entire video as you said, how did you miss the part where I said I was getting tired of editing the video and that there was not much left to show off, and that I was going to skim through the rest of the playthrough until the end? I would have pointed out that I focused on taking out crowds of enemies with Terra Blade close-range primarily and used Vampire Knives to heal damage when needed, but it doesn't seem you are remotely interested in facts at this point.
Everything you shown in the video can be done better with Ranged or Ranged Melee DPS and with less risk than "true meleeing"

X Doubt


You were called a liar for claiming that the mech bosses do single-digit damage. Your video shows the mech bosses doing significantly more damage than that; so it does not support what you said.
I did not say all mech boss attacks (only said "most" even). My build wasn't even fully optimized for pure raw defense, I could have neglected dodge chance for example. Please pay more attention, that red vertical line you see for example? That's the number one:

1.png

Here's another part of the fight where I took 4 damage, albeit you need to look closely:
4.png

Just a few examples, and as the one who was playing the game and recording in the first place, I know it kept happening off-camera especially as Prime & Retinazer attempted to chip damage me with lasers.

The average Mech boss attack ranges from around 100 to 140 damage on Master Mode. Considering Defense in Master mode is 100% effective (meaning 1 defense = 1 less damage taken) combined with the fact you can get well over 100 defense with pre-mech equipment, the numbers themselves agree with me.
 
Can we stop talking about Terra Blade, it is most definitely not a true melee weapon. The insane DPS with the blade isn't the only thing contributing to its power, the beam actually does help a lot and enables it to one of the best choices for OOA and the lunar events. And if the only argument for why true melee in this game is gamebreakingly overpowered is a weapon that literally has very strong projectiles with effectively infinite range, then there really isn't much to back up that claim.
When I refer to whip stacking with terra blade I mean the specifically true melee playstyle adopted with it. If its true melee playstyle is the one dealing insane amounts of dps, that's definitely an argument in favour of it.
The claim was that there were other ranged setups or other non-true melee setups that could deal greater dps than all afromented setups, which includes the above.
I could also point out the combination of fetid baghnakhs with titanium melee armor, it still seems to hold the record for speedkilling plantera, recently eclipsing megashark with crystal even, apparently. No other setup I'm aware of that isn't at these true melee facetanking ranges beats this.
While not completely true melee, such setups involving titanium shards are also involved in the meta setups group of this game and that applies to a massive amount of things post mech bosses. These setups may not be entirely true to the true melee sentiment but they resemble the same very well.

For some examples:-
- Night's Edge Wall of Flesh speedkill
- Destroyer titanium-blade facetanking
- Hugging the other two mechs when possible with crystal megashark or equivalent weapon with very high hitrate
- Whip-stacked Fetid Baghnakhs with titanium crystal shards on plantera (and golem because might as well)
- Whip-stacked Terra blade, hugging the relevant enemies with the blade as much as possible on both the Moon events, golem, and by my claim that no one has ever believed for understandable reasons, solar pillar
- Titanium armor with blade staff and Vampire knives for decent dps while being able to completely negate dodging anywhere except for moon lord and maybe pillars (this one definitely is easily out-dpsable but the main draw of it is effective invincibility

I believe that accounts for the entire runtime of hardmode
 
Even though I take 1 or single digit damage from most boss attacks that I facetank
By "most" attacks you mean occassionally and only 1st phase of Twins and chip damage from Destroyer's Laser Probes?
Cause with same exact setup as you and buffs i am geting consistent double digit damage averaging between 25-40 and a LOT higher when hit by Destroyer's Head or Skele P Spin (which is why being very close to bosses is so risky compared to ranged) and that is with the Endurance Potion active. Without it situation is even more dire with same defense number + Worm Scarf.

Very rarely i see single digit damage and only 1's are from Cursed flame DOT.
So i still don't believe you are being genuine with your statement / you are highly exaggerating
I don't remember saying that you could reasonably facetank every boss in the game
Which is exactly the point why "true melee" or stacking defense is not viable as game progresses there are many enemies and bosses where it is much safer and more efficient to kill them with ranged attacks - especially since you are getting more powerful ranged DPS weapons including ranged-melees and enemies and bosses start to hit like jet powered trucks as game progresses.

Which you yourself proved in your video that your "true melee" "close range" tactic viability falls flat as game progresses and this brings us to the next thing:
Terra Blade w/ Whips is quite literally the best strategy in the game for Frost Moon and especially Pumpkin Moon, even on Master Mode.
By face tanking and "true meleeing" ? With progression appropriate gear?

X Doubt

Enemies from these events deal damages averaging from 240 to 480 on Master mode and the sheer amount the minibosses from said even on the screen as the event progresses.

No. Show me. Show me this strat in action vs said events no edits no BS and show that its Master mode and your gear is legit and don't have any suspicious prefixes.

Cause this is either another lie or gross hyperbole. This is where most "pro" true melee players i played with got completely destroyed multipile times over and ragequitted.
 
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When I refer to whip stacking with terra blade I mean the specifically true melee playstyle adopted with it. If its true melee playstyle is the one dealing insane amounts of dps, that's definitely an argument in favour of it.
Well yes, but you can't use the true melee playstyle on everything. Terra Blade might not be a S tier weapon without the beam, since Duke, Empress and Moon Lord are difficult to facetank, and the blade isn't really that good for crowd control (PM and FM doesn't count, they are more similar to a glorified boss rush). This leaves niches for the blade to fill, and calling it a true melee weapon simply because the blade has higher DPS is stupid.
The claim was that there were other ranged setups or other non-true melee setups that could deal greater dps than all afromented setups, which includes the above.
No one ever claimed that, I'm pretty sure that the actual claim was that ranged and magic builds were a lot less risky than true melee which is only broken with like 2 weapons anyway.
I could also point out the combination of fetid baghnakhs with titanium melee armor, it still seems to hold the record for speedkilling plantera, recently eclipsing megashark with crystal even, apparently. No other setup I'm aware of that isn't at these true melee facetanking ranges beats this.
Yeah? Plantera is the most facetankable boss, we all know about this.
- Night's Edge Wall of Flesh speedkill
Which is one of the most impractical and hardest things to do in this game, requiring perfect precision in terms of movement and hungries with their insane damage can mess it up.
- Destroyer titanium-blade facetanking
Well, there are many ways to cheese destroyer anyway, but I will give this one to true melee since it does work rather well even without facetanking.
- Hugging the other two mechs when possible with crystal megashark or equivalent weapon with very high hitrate
This is where megashark has a massive advantage over fetid, for these bosses with fetid you spent a lot of the time chasing after them whereas megashark still has good dps at range. And don't forget megashark isn't the only ranged weapon that can facetank.
- Whip-stacked Terra blade, hugging the relevant enemies with the blade as much as possible on both the Moon events, golem, and by my claim that no one has ever believed for understandable reasons, solar pillar
Moon events are a glorified boss rush with 4/5 bosses trying to get right on top of you anyway, golem is golem, and solar pillar performance is helped a lot if not dominated by the beam.
- Titanium armor with blade staff and Vampire knives for decent dps while being able to completely negate dodging anywhere except for moon lord and maybe pillars (this one definitely is easily out-dpsable but the main draw of it is effective invincibility
Couldn't you wear any armour and use any minion and still have insane survivability with VK?
By face tanking and "true meleeing" ? With progression appropriate gear?

X Doubt

Enemies from these events deal damages averaging from 240 to 480 on Master mode and the sheer amount the minibosses from said even on the screen as the event progresses.

No. Show me. Show me this strat in action vs said events no edits no BS and show that its Master mode and your gear is legit and don't have any suspicious prefixes.

Cause this is either another lie or gross hyperbole. This is where most "pro" true melee players i played with got completely destroyed multipile times over and ragequitted.
The bosses drop a lot of hearts when they die, so it's not as hard as you might think. However I don't think people have properly tested this on Frost Moon, which has more dangerous enemies alongside the bosses, and Santa-NK1s release spiky balls which deal a ton of damage. But Pumpkin Moon facetanking is certainly possible, I could rather easily find evidence for this.


Also sorry mods, perhaps we should create a new thread for this instead of having the discussion in the State of the Game.
 
The bosses drop a lot of hearts when they die, so it's not as hard as you might think. However I don't think people have properly tested this on Frost Moon, which has more dangerous enemies alongside the bosses, and Santa-NK1s release spiky balls which deal a ton of damage. But Pumpkin Moon facetanking is certainly possible, I could rather easily find evidence for this.
I am not fully convinced that this is still enough to true melee face tank screen full of enemies that deal from 240 to 480 damage on average without keeping ranged distance from them.

I am skeptical due to the experience i had with these events both solo and with others.
But i don't mind being proven wrong.

No one ever claimed that, I'm pretty sure that the actual claim was that ranged and magic builds were a lot less risky than true melee which is only broken with like 2 weapons anyway.
Yup way less risky and better due to not needing to chase down bosses that move around fast and bosses that spam a lot of dangerous projectiles / have powerful charge attacks that are easier to dodge at range and deal a lot of damage even with Player's high defense.

I can keep doing consistent damage without needing to so often retreat or chase.
As i would while "true meleeing" and face tanking all the damage instead avoiding it.

Also sorry mods, perhaps we should create a new thread for this instead of having the discussion in the State of the Game.
I should stop too. I don't want to anger the moderator so i'll keep silent now.
Tho i still have some things to say about this "true melee vs ranged melee" topic but you are right guess this is either for a new thread or PM.
 
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By "most" attacks you mean only 1st phase of Twins and chip damage from Destroyer's Laser Probes?
Retinazer actually having lower damage on one of its attacks in the 2nd phase, which also happens to be only part of its 2nd phase that is hard to avoid...
Destroyer's lasers being by far the main threat in the fight...
Considering where this thread is headed and how you're unwilling to be rational at all (calling me a liar repetitively then desperately grasping at straws when confronted with evidence) I'll just stop entertaining this.
 
Well yes, but you can't use the true melee playstyle on everything. Terra Blade might not be a S tier weapon without the beam, since Duke, Empress and Moon Lord are difficult to facetank, and the blade isn't really that good for crowd control (PM and FM doesn't count, they are more similar to a glorified boss rush). This leaves niches for the blade to fill, and calling it a true melee weapon simply because the blade has higher DPS is stupid.
Terra blade is relevant in the meta because of its true melee aspect. This true melee aspect enables it to have extremely high close range dps everything post golem except for empress of light including Duke Fishron. Just because the beam exists and isn't useless doesn't make that point irrelevant
No one ever claimed that, I'm pretty sure that the actual claim was that ranged and magic builds were a lot less risky than true melee which is only broken with like 2 weapons anyway.
True melee builds stated have a lot more safety because you literally don't have to dodge at all. In the ranged builds with special true melee factors this argument would be relevant.
Never said true melee has an abundance of weapons either.
Yeah? Plantera is the most facetankable boss, we all know about this.
Plantera is facetankable with facetanking loadouts, not the run of the mill ranged dps build
Which is one of the most impractical and hardest things to do in this game, requiring perfect precision in terms of movement and hungries with their insane damage can mess it up.
Still proves that facetank combat exists at more than one weapon and stage of game
This is where megashark has a massive advantage over fetid, for these bosses with fetid you spent a lot of the time chasing after them whereas megashark still has good dps at range. And don't forget megashark isn't the only ranged weapon that can facetank.
And yet bearhugging where possible with titanium shards is still useful
Moon events are a glorified boss rush with 4/5 bosses trying to get right on top of you anyway, golem is golem, and solar pillar performance is helped a lot if not dominated by the beam.
Despite these events being what you describe them as it doesn't change the fact that true melee terrastacking beats all pre lunar challenges anyways (excepting empress of light, whose true melee drop I might note isn't all too bad) and foregoes the need to dodge, instead allowing you to just focus on collectable health from minibosses
To be clearer on Duke Fishron, while it is not possible to entirely bearhug this boss, I have definitely seen and done very fast clears with this setup and by being very very close to the boss (or at least close enough to hit with the blade). Is the ranged aspect irrelevant here? No. Is the true melee aspect impactful? Extremely
Solar pillar I agree with, the ranged aspect is significantly more important here and the true melee aspect is really minor
Couldn't you wear any armour and use any minion and still have insane survivability with VK?
Titanium armor gives the best dps bonuses while letting you be invincible 24/7

If you want to engage this further just catch me on discord since we're deciding to end this discussion here now.
 
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