Why the Nettle Burst is not as underwhelming as it might seem

cancan460

Skeletron
I believe the Nettle Burst is a reasonably strong weapon right now, although it seems underwhelming considering the point at which you get it (Plantera!) and its relative power compared to other weapons you have access to at that point of the game. To prove my point, I have made a simple graph.

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The damage output per second (dps, d/s) of the Nettle Burst is calculated with the formula (27 - 0.5x) / 0.4 * 9p, where x represents the defensive capabilities of the enemy and p represents the amount of enemies present. This is assuming perfect conditions (All enemies are hit by every single tick of the nettle).

The d/s of the Leaf Blower (another Plantera drop) is calculated with the slightly simpler formula of (48 - 0.5x) / 0.1.

Which means that we have the values for defense on the X-axis, the values for d/s on the Y-axis, and the amount of enemies for the Nettle Burst will be filled in manually for each test. I could have used a 3D-graph to make the amount of enemies be calculated by the formula too, but I decided not to for simplicity's sake.

I marked the four points at which the Leaf Blower starts outclassing the Nettle Burst in terms of DPS.

For a single enemy, the Leaf Blower outclasses the Nettle Burst as soon as the enemy has 21 defense or higher, 42 or higher for two enemies, 47 or higher for three enemies, 49 or higher for four enemies, the amount starts closing into 54 the more enemies you have. The thing is, very few enemies actually have a defensive value that high. One of the very few enemies in the game with a defensive value of 44 is the tail of the World Feeder, but that one can be considered obsolete because a World Feeder has very many parts (which makes the formula go closer and closer to 54)

As soon as the enemies have 54 defense or higher, the Nettle Burst will not outclass the Leaf Blower unless the enemies have a defense value of 96 or higher, enemies with a defensive value of either of those two do not exist unless under special conditions (Do mind that my grand list is slightly outdated, some lunar monsters might break the rule. However, let's be honest, you wouldn't be using the Nettle Burst nor the Leaf Blower at a Lunar event).

What can we conclude from this: as soon as you face two enemies or more at once, the Nettle Burst outclasses the Leaf Blower theoretically. Of course, things like range, ease of use, etc. are difficult to include in a formula which is why I can only leave that part to the Terrarian to decide.

Of course, the Leaf Blower isn't the only weapon which exists and there are other comparisons to be made! Care to see anything else compared? Hit me up with a suggestion!
 
Interesting one complain I do have is the lack of axis on the graph
I presume the y axis is dps and the x axis is defense
also for the nettle burst formula I presume it would happen to be nettleburst dps(x,p)=((27 - 0.5x) / 0.4 )* 9p rather than nettleburstdps(x,p)=(27 - 0.5x) / 0.4 * 9p there is a difference mathematically (notation based)
 
Interesting one complain I do have is the lack of axis on the graph
I presume the y axis is dps and the x axis is defense
also for the nettle burst formula I presume it would happen to be nettleburst dps(x,p)=((27 - 0.5x) / 0.4 )* 9p rather than nettleburstdps(x,p)=(27 - 0.5x) / 0.4 * 9p there is a difference mathematically (notation based)
I mentioned the X and Y axis and what they stand for in the thread. Also, what would change with that notation change? After the brackets are worked out, everything would be calculated from left to right either way, which means that there is no reason to put 0.4 in parentheses.

I never knew before that games could be put into math so much.
Math can be found anywhere :p
 
this is a level of mathematics that makes my brain weep, turn to jelly, and then leak out of my ears.

seriously impressive and you deserve a cookie
 
nettle burst has always been good because it's a straight vilethorn upgrade. shooting through walls at the range it offers is very nice, especially when coming up on the new mobs in the dungeon.
 
Well, the reason most people think the Nettle Burst is bad is because it was underwhelming when it was first released, when it had a base damage value of 21. As of 1.3 it has 28, so it's in a much better place now.

On that note, did you mean to use 27 in your damage formula for the Nettle Burst, or is that a typo? The wiki claims it's 28, so either you're wrong, the wiki's wrong, or I'm wrong because I don't fully understand the math you did. It seems pretty straightforward to me, though. Using 28 instead of 27 wouldn't affect the slope of your line but would shift it up the y axis by 22.5 DPS, making the intersection points between the two x=24 for one enemy, x=44.5 for two enemies, x=49 for three, x=51 for four, and x=52 for five.

For those having a harder time following, you can just set the two formulas equal to each other as (28-.5x)/.4*9p=(48-.5x)/.1, plug in the number of enemies p, and solve for x to find the amount of defense where the effectiveness of the two weapons intersects. If you want a slightly more simplified version of that formula, then it can be reduced to x=(480-630p)/(5-11.25p).

Incidentally, the formula for comparing (almost) any weapon to the Nettle Burst is x=(60d/t-630p)/(30/t-11.25p), where d is the other weapon's base damage, t is its use time, and p and x are still the number of enemies and the defense where the two weapons' performances intersect, respectively. That's only accurate if the other weapon doesn't pierce, though. If it pierces then the formula is x=(60dp/t-630p)/(30p/t-11.25p), though even that is not always accurate since piercing attacks can only hit up to 6 times per second in Terraria, so for cases when the use time is less than 10 but the attack pierces just use 10 for t anyway.

(Source for all of this math, btw: a great site called WolframAlpha.)

also for the nettle burst formula I presume it would happen to be nettleburst dps(x,p)=((27 - 0.5x) / 0.4 )* 9p rather than nettleburstdps(x,p)=(27 - 0.5x) / 0.4 * 9p there is a difference mathematically (notation based)

There is no difference between the two if you follow the proper order of operations. In both notations you would divide by 0.4 and then multiply by 9p. OP's math is correct.
 
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I never liked the vilethorn, never like the crystal shard, never liked the nettle burst, but this makes me see them in a different light.
 
I used the Vilethorn several times in pre-HM but never used the Neetle Burst. I got it several times when fighting Plantera but usually I had a better weapon (such as Death Sickle) before it, which could pass through walls.
 
...People considered it underwhelming? I always thought it was amazing, because when I got it I already had offensive spectre armor, so all the wisps unleashed made me think that it was an amazing weapon for its tier. I liked the vilethorn because of its ability to pierce through blocks. Before 1.3, I even used it on the frost moon until I got the razorpine (I was a newb back then, don't judge me. I didn't know golem existed).
And now that I see this, I love it even more!
 
this is a level of mathematics that makes my brain weep, turn to jelly, and then leak out of my ears.

seriously impressive and you deserve a cookie
It's really just simple algebra. Im only 13 and I understood this 100%. Unless ,of course, you simply just haven't learned it yet. Nonetheless, this would have taken some time.
 
So, how does the nettle burst compare to other peircing weapons around that point in the game?
Are there any you would suggest I compare the Nettle Burst with? I'd love to!
Well, the reason most people think the Nettle Burst is bad is because it was underwhelming when it was first released, when it had a base damage value of 21. As of 1.3 it has 28, so it's in a much better place now.

On that note, did you mean to use 27 in your damage formula for the Nettle Burst, or is that a typo? The wiki claims it's 28, so either you're wrong, the wiki's wrong, or I'm wrong because I don't fully understand the math you did. It seems pretty straightforward to me, though. Using 28 instead of 27 wouldn't affect the slope of your line but would shift it up the y axis by 22.5 DPS, making the intersection points between the two x=24 for one enemy, x=44.5 for two enemies, x=49 for three, x=51 for four, and x=52 for five.
It seems I did make a typo then! Luckily, that further reinforces the point that the Nettle Burst isn't underwhelming comparatively. Thanks for all the math, btw.
 
I mentioned the X and Y axis and what they stand for in the thread. Also, what would change with that notation change? After the brackets are worked out, everything would be calculated from left to right either way, which means that there is no reason to put 0.4 in parentheses.


Math can be found anywhere :p
sorry about that wasn't exactly thinking the best... The reason that came up is when plotting functions on my graphing calculator it requires the parenthesis to work otherwise you get **** then again its an old piece of technology might be time for a new one but they are so expensive...
 
sorry about that wasn't exactly thinking the best... The reason that came up is when plotting functions on my graphing calculator it requires the parenthesis to work otherwise you get **** then again its an old piece of technology might be time for a new one but they are so expensive...
I feel your pain mate! My graphing calculator took me about a hundred euros.

this is a level of mathematics that makes my brain weep, turn to jelly, and then leak out of my ears.

seriously impressive and you deserve a cookie
Although it doesn't feel nearly as impressive to me (reasonably simple algebra), still thanks bud!
 
It seems I did make a typo then! Luckily, that further reinforces the point that the Nettle Burst isn't underwhelming comparatively. Thanks for all the math, btw.

No problem, it was fun to work it out. As unlikely as it may sound now I'm not really a math person, in fact I'm an English major minoring in linguistics and I haven't taken a single math class for nearly four years, but I still like to dabble in it every once in a while when I get a chance. Plus, Terraria math has been something of a hobby for me, since it's difficult to talk about the meta of this game without using math.

After looking over my math again, though, I've noticed that I had a typo, too: in the Nettle Burst vs. Leaf Blower equation, 360 should be 630 instead. I'll go ahead and fix it.
 
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