1.4.4 Summoner Minion, Whip & Armor In-Depth Tier List

[qwerty3.14]

First and mainly, you will not land every shot with Shadowflame Knife in an actual playthrough where you are busy dodging attacks, not even close. Shadowflame knife is a small projectile that moves at medium speed, Cool Whip is a whip that overs a wide area and is easier to hit moving targets with (It can even reach Spazmatism during its 1st phase cursed flame spam).

The cool whip's range is a limitation, not every twin attack is the phase 1 spaz fireball spam, and it's especially bad in spaz's second phase.

Secondly, with non-whip weapons like Shadowflame Knife, you cannot switch to your whips while still having the mouse button held down. This adds an extra layer of annoyance.

I actually didn't know this, I usually use my mouse wheel to switch weapons. This seems to work on any weapon that doesn't have auto reuse by default.

Not to mention you have to go out of your way to get Shadowflame Knife from Goblin Summoner, meanwhile not only are Blizzards somewhat common unless you're unlucky, but Cool Whip is essentially a 100% drop rate from Ice Golem (Frost Core). You might even get wings from it as well.

Don't forget Cool whip needs souls of light, souls of night, and a hardmode anvil shadowflame knife doesn't need any of those.

I'm certain it's worse against Destroyer as well.

Let's see...
Shadowflame knife bounces twice so that's 3x damage against the destroyer.
Cool whip's first hit does 100% damage, + 70% second hit + 49% third hit + 34% fourth hit 24% fifth hit, anything after that will probably get nulified by destroyer's defense.
So that's 1 + 0.7 + + 0.49 + 0.34 + 0.24 = 2.77x the damage against destroyer.
Oh and of course sharpened is really good here, Unlike tags sharpened will work regardless of what segment your blades decide to hit.

I also prefer saving my time rather than fishing for Rage potions as a Summoner.

Take the rage potion out of my build from above and shadowflame knife is still doing more dps than cool whip.

I also don't see why I'd switch out autoswing on whips for Warrior Emblem? Even if you meant another accessory, if I DON'T use Shadowflame Knife, I can use another accessory instead of Warrior Emblem. I'll stick to Cool Whip.

Why feral claws? Because feral claws don't do anything for your blades and shadowflame knife already has autoswing. You can just as easily remove the warrior emblem on the shadowflame knife build.

Not sure why you'd need the feral claws if you're only swinging with the sidearms once before switching. If you still refuse to give up the feral claws and the rage potions shadowflame knife still does more damage although not by much.

 

[Shyguymask]

The cool whip's range is a limitation, not every twin attack is the phase 1 spaz fireball spam, and it's especially bad in spaz's second phase.

You're already committed to fighting at mid range since you already have Cool Whip and Spinal Tap. Spewing fireballs is what Spazmatism's first phase does the vast majority of the time.

Don't forget Cool whip needs souls of light, souls of night, and a hardmode anvil shadowflame knife doesn't need any of those.

You're already getting all of these very easily. You need to go to underground crimson for Ichor and you need to go to underground hallow for Queen Slime's summon. You also can't make wings without Hardmode anvil.

Let's see...
Shadowflame knife bounces twice so that's 3x damage against the destroyer.
Cool whip's first hit does 100% damage, + 70% second hit + 49% third hit + 34% fourth hit 24% fifth hit, anything after that will probably get nulified by destroyer's defense.
So that's 1 + 0.7 + + 0.49 + 0.34 + 0.24 = 2.77x the damage against destroyer.
Oh and of course sharpened is really good here, Unlike tags sharpened will work regardless of what segment your blades decide to hit.

This will not apply to every Shadowflame knife projectile at all. I think you're also forgetting Cool Whip's snowflake which adds a triple digit amount of DPS.

Sharpened won't do much because Blade Staff itself is horrible against Destroyer. Not to mention as far as I'm aware Destroyer only has 5 defense after Blade Staff's armor pen, so unless Sharpened is glitched with Blade Staff like with Ichor, it won't add much damage.

Take the rage potion out of my build from above and shadowflame knife is still doing more dps than cool whip.

Barely, and that's assuming you land almost if not all shots while you're dodging attacks and avoiding death.

Not sure why you'd need the feral claws if you're only swinging with the sidearms once before switching.

Because I'm pretty sure you run into the same problem as Shadowflame knife, can't hold the mouse button while micro'ing whips. Not to mention the melee speed makes whips faster to manage in general.

 

[qwerty3.14]

This will not apply to every Shadowflame knife projectile at all. I think you're also forgetting Cool Whip's snowflake which adds a triple digit amount of DPS.

Why not? Destroyer covers the ground under you.

You're already committed to fighting at mid range since you already have Cool Whip and Spinal Tap. Spewing fireballs is what Spazmatism's first phase does the vast majority of the time.

Barely, and that's assuming you land almost if not all shots while you're dodging attacks and avoiding death.

How are you dealing with phase 2 spaz? Obsdiain armor? Well that's 2 less blades, and fire cracker is probably better now.

Sharpened won't do much because Blade Staff itself is horrible against Destroyer. Not to mention as far as I'm aware Destroyer only has 5 defense after Blade Staff's armor pen, so unless Sharpened is glitched with Blade Staff like with Ichor, it won't add much damage.

I think it is glitcheed? I checked the source code a while ago, the way projectiles with inherit armor penetration work is that they add extra damge based on enemy defense before the game actually processes normal defense reduction from other sources.

I can't test right now but see what happens to blade against destroyer with max armor penetration (sharpened melee weapon + both sharktooth necklaces)

 

[Shyguymask]

Why not? Destroyer covers the ground under you.

It's pretty dangerous to stay in the middle right above Destroyer and be in the middle of the laser & probe spam.

How are you dealing with phase 2 spaz? Obsdiain armor? Well that's 2 less blades, and fire cracker is probably better now.

The only difference is that you can't spam whips while Spaz is doing the flamethrower attack. Actually, with Cool Whip's relatively long range, you could probably get a few hits in while rotating around Spaz. Spaz Phase 2 is quite really easy to avoid, one of the easiest patterns in the whole game that is too consistent and predictable to be a threat. Especially if you've already killed Retinazer.

I think it is glitcheed? I checked the source code a while ago, the way projectiles with inherit armor penetration work is that they add extra damge based on enemy defense before the game actually processes normal defense reduction from other sources.

Still a bad for Destroyer regardless. Sanguine with Firecracker kills it twice as fast if not more. Even Optic Staff is better against Destroyer.

 

[qwerty3.14]

It's pretty dangerous to stay in the middle right above Destroyer and be in the middle of the laser & probe spam.

Isn't it more dangerous to get up close with the cool whip?

The only difference is that you can't spam whips while Spaz is doing the flamethrower attack. Actually, with Cool Whip's relatively long range, you could probably get a few hits in while rotating around Spaz. Spaz Phase 2 is quite really easy to avoid, one of the easiest patterns in the whole game that is too consistent and predictable to be a threat. Especially if you've already killed Retinazer.

You've complained about survival and now you're trying to fly in circles around spaz?

Still a bad for Destroyer regardless. Sanguine with Firecracker kills it twice as fast if not more. Even Optic Staff is better against Destroyer.

I thought we were specificlly talking about using blades? If you have a sanguine staff why are you even fooling around with the cool whip?
By the time you have optic staff you'll have a durendel, that thing just ends cool whip.

 

[J Bame]

Not to mention as far as I'm aware Destroyer only has 5 defense after Blade Staff's armor pen, so unless Sharpened is glitched with Blade Staff like with Ichor, it won't add much damage.

The way defense penetration works is that it adds a flat amount of damage to the weapon based on the enemy's defense and the projectile's defense penetration. In other words, the Blade Staff doesn't ignore 25 defense from enemies, it actually just deals 12 more damage to enemies that have that much.

Since this "penetration" is calculated before enemy defense is reduced by other sources, any item that reduces defense will add more damage to the Blades than it's supposed to.

 

[Shyguymask]

Isn't it more dangerous to get up close with the cool whip?

Not as much as trying to stand in the middle of laser & probe spam just so your knife hits 2-3 times consistently. You can also somewhat easily hit Destroyer if you keep moving in one direction hitting his segments along the way.

You've complained about survival and now you're trying to fly in circles around spaz?

I don't remember complaining about survival when comparing Shadow Flame Knife vs. Cool Whip specifically.

I thought we were specificlly talking about using blades? If you have a sanguine staff why are you even fooling around with the cool whip?
By the time you have optic staff you'll have a durendel, that thing just ends cool whip.

I was simply making comparisons to showcase how bad Blade Staff really is against Destroyer.

 

[qwerty3.14]

I was simply making comparisons to showcase how bad Blade Staff really is against Destroyer.

Have you tried using armor penetration with the blade staff vs destroyer?
Like you get 12 armor penetration from sharpened.
You said tags don't work on destroyer so I guess you're not using spinal tap or snapthorn, and since shadowflame knife has autouse you can swap out the feral claw for a stinger necklace for 5 extra armor penetration.
And you can then swap out the summoner emblem for sharktooth necklace, summoner emblem is only 1 extra damge for blade.

So that's effectively 22 armor penetration or 11 damage, -1 from replacing the summoner emblem and that's 10 extra damage for every blade attack. I'd imagine putting 10 extra damage on every blade minion would do more than cool whip's snowflake.

 

[Shyguymask]

Have you tried using armor penetration with the blade staff vs destroyer?
Like you get 12 armor penetration from sharpened.
You said tags don't work on destroyer so I guess you're not using spinal tap or snapthorn, and since shadowflame knife has autouse you can swap out the feral claw for a stinger necklace for 5 extra armor penetration.
And you can then swap out the summoner emblem for sharktooth necklace, summoner emblem is only 1 extra damge for blade.

So that's effectively 22 armor penetration or 11 damage, -1 from replacing the summoner emblem and that's 10 extra damage for every blade attack. I'd imagine putting 10 extra damage on every blade minion would do more than cool whip's snowflake.

I don't think you realize Blade Staff don't target multiple segments, they focus on one segment barely hitting adjacent segments time to time. 11 damage each hit on a 120k HP target when the daggers themselves aren't really piercing through segments, that's REALLY bad. And I was even spamming SnapTap when I killed Destroyer in Expert in 2.5 minutes. With Cool Whip though (video was focusing on minions themselves as much as possible), I could reduce that time significantly. The Snowflake minion actually tries to hit as many segments as possible, once again it contributes a triple digit amount of DPS and that's not including Cool Whip's high base damage and range compared to SnapTap.

 

[Dreadnautilus5000🌳]

I don't think you realize Blade Staff don't target multiple segments, they focus on one segment barely hitting adjacent segments time to time. 11 damage each hit on a 120k HP target when the daggers themselves aren't really piercing through segments, that's REALLY bad. And I was even spamming SnapTap when I killed Destroyer in Expert in 2.5 minutes. With Cool Whip though (video was focusing on minions themselves as much as possible), I could reduce that time significantly. The Snowflake minion actually tries to hit as many segments as possible, once again it contributes a triple digit amount of DPS and that's not including Cool Whip's high base damage and range compared to SnapTap.

Remind me what this has to do with Shadowflame Knife vs Cool Whip?

 

[Shyguymask]

Remind me what this has to do with Shadowflame Knife vs Cool Whip?

Whether or not Shadowflame Knife giving Sharpened is a significant advantage. Against Destroyer at the very least, it's not because Blade Staff is awful against Destroyer in the first place.

 

[qwerty3.14]

Whether or not Shadowflame Knife giving Sharpened is a significant advantage. Against Destroyer at the very least, it's not because Blade Staff is awful against Destroyer in the first place.

In the grand scheme of things cool whip is also awful against destroyer. There's so many weapons that just melt destroyer in seconds.

 

[Dreadnautilus5000🌳]

In the grand scheme of things cool whip is also awful against destroyer. There's so many weapons that just melt destroyer in seconds.

In terms of melting Destroyer, wouldn’t Fetid Baghnakhs deal much more damage?

 

[Shyguymask]

In the grand scheme of things cool whip is also awful against destroyer. There's so many weapons that just melt destroyer in seconds.

There is a reason that the optimal route is killing Destroyer with Sanguine/Firecracker then switching to Blade Staff with Durendal.

Something tells me you also forgot Cool Whip is only ranked B+. You can use it to deal additional against Twins or Skeletron Prime with Blade Staff, or use it to grind WoF faster for Firecracker if you plan on using that with Sanguine. It only has so many uses.

 

[RIDZ]

In terms of melting Destroyer, wouldn’t Fetid Baghnakhs deal much more damage?

yeah they do have the highest speed of any weapon and can shred through bosses like plantera and the destroyer
I am a summoner class though

 

[Nimta]

'blade staff wannabe" no... every time I do xeno vs blade xeno blows it out of the water, I can understand why people get frustrated with minions like ravens but this thing is just as reliable as blades with much higher damage output.

Xeno staff is better... until you go out of its very short attacking range and then they just. stop. working. until you stand still for like five seconds. Not exactly the best in a real combat situation, especially against EOL which is its next most important use-case in the current times, after getting a stardust summon, which can be done easily without Xeno.

J Bame:
So, using Sunfury to abuse Sharpened is fine but using a Hellwing Bow because it has great DPS and range is not... I don't get it. SnapTap and Night's Edge are apparently too risky, Sunfury doesn't deal any damage itself and this is the one time where Mana is an issue for Magic weapons without Mage armors. In this case... why aren't you using a Ranged weapon, which has no weakness whatsoever? This is just an arbitrary restriction more than anything else.
In any case my point still stands, in a regular summoner run you won't have any "class" restrictions and you'll just use whatever works best, and the best minion for the Wall is the Imp by a small margin.

Have you been missing that SGM is talking about defensive playstyles without using WASD? The reason he's picking the way he is is because he is pretty much moving only with a grappling hook, unable to aim directly for more than half a second. In this situation getting up close is worthless, anything that requires aim is worthless. That's why he's abusing sharpened.

Dreadnautilus5000:
It took me a minute to get an Armored Cavefish plus two Specular Fish. I think it took me maybe 10-15 seconds to get my first Cavefish. Also, I wasn't using that good fishing equipment, just a Mechanic's Rod and Enchanted Nightcrawlers (both of which are pretty easy to get BTW). No Angler Earring, no High Test Fishing Line, no Angler Tackle Bag, no Angler armour, no Chum Buckets, no Fishing Potion, no Sonar Potion, nothing to boost my fishing power.
Also, there's no reason to not go fishing in a regular Cavern pond primarily for Armored Cavefish. If you consider one extra damage per hit an actual reason to choose a melee weapon with Sharpened over whips with Obsidian armour, then 10% reduced damage taken should be plenty in your eyes.

Consider that pond sizes, moon phase, weather, and luck values also all affect catching fish. I don't know if SGM is aware, but there's likely a good reason for this much of a disparity.

 

[Dreadnautilus5000🌳]

Consider that pond sizes, moon phase, weather, and luck values also all affect catching fish. I don't know if SGM is aware, but there's likely a good reason for this much of a disparity.

Moon phase, weather and time of day are constantly changing, so if you just wait a bit you’ll get better conditions for fishing. Pond size can be increased easily by using the water duplication trick, or you could just find a bigger pond. Luck values aren’t very difficult to increase either, just get a Garden Gnome and place some biome Torches.

 

[J Bame]

Have you been missing that SGM is talking about defensive playstyles without using WASD? The reason he's picking the way he is is because he is pretty much moving only with a grappling hook, unable to aim directly for more than half a second. In this situation getting up close is worthless, anything that requires aim is worthless. That's why he's abusing sharpened.

Did you miss the part in his last replies of that argument where he explained that the actual reason why he is abusing sharpened is that he considers it the only safe Summoner strategy, and that he chose not to use Ranged weapons because he considers that to just be a Ranger loadout?

 

[Nimta]

Moon phase, weather and time of day are constantly changing, so if you just wait a bit you’ll get better conditions for fishing. Pond size can be increased easily by using the water duplication trick, or you could just find a bigger pond. Luck values aren’t very difficult to increase either, just get a Garden Gnome and place some biome Torches.

I don't know if SGM is aware

Fishing is booooooring to a lot of us. Some people don't even take the time to learn it properly. I don't know where SGM is in this cycle.

Did you miss the part in his last replies of that argument where he explained that the actual reason why he is abusing sharpened is that he considers it the only safe Summoner strategy, and that he chose not to use Ranged weapons because he considers that to just be a Ranger loadout?

Well, it really does become about using the ranged weapon moreso than the summons the way you implemented it. The whole point of this is how good summoner can be on its own; including a bunch of optimizations for side-arming with other classes doesn't really make sense in this context. He's not attacking directly with the sunfury, just using it as a shield and for the classless bone cross projectiles, letting the summons do the job. Since it's about optimizing the summon damage, he's not going to go super aggro either as that's actively detrimental to his own survival as well as the minion's efficiency.

 

[Dreadnautilus5000🌳]

Fishing is booooooring to a lot of us. Some people don't even take the time to learn it properly. I don't know where SGM is in this cycle.

There's nothing much to learn. Just use the fishing pole and bait with the highest power, and try to use big ponds. I don't even bother with fishing at the correct moon phases and times of day and whatnot. Yes I agree that it's boring but only if you do for a long time, and catching fish for potions takes a few minutes at most.

Well, it really does become about using the ranged weapon moreso than the summons the way you implemented it. The whole point of this is how good summoner can be on its own; including a bunch of optimizations for side-arming with other classes doesn't really make sense in this context. He's not attacking directly with the sunfury, just using it as a shield and for the classless bone cross projectiles, letting the summons do the job. Since it's about optimizing the summon damage, he's not going to go super aggro either as that's actively detrimental to his own survival as well as the minion's efficiency.

The thing about Summoner is that not only is it great on its own with whips, but you can just slap minions onto any build for free damage. I think that it was literally meant to be support in the first place. So if you can't get up close to attack with whips because its too dangerous for some reason, you can use a weapon from another class, and if you wear summoner armour and build around your minions rather than your other weapon, you're still a summoner. Not attacking with a primary weapon at all will just pointlessly lower your damage output.