Items 100% ammo conservation with the Ammo Reservation Potion

[Baconfry]

One thing that annoys me about the Ammo Reservation potion is that the materials required to make it are often more annoying to farm than the ammunition it's supposed to conserve, and in the end it only saves you a handful of bullets. Usually buff potions are meant to be used during high-stress situations like boss battles and invasions, but ammo reservation does not aid you in combat whatsoever. (Rangers are not meant to run out of ammo in the middle of a battle.)

If the Ammo Reservation buff were to instead allow unlimited ammo use for its duration, it would obviously be much more tempting to use. And when you consider that rangers aren't supposed to run out of ammo, and that ammo conservation doesn't actually increase combat effectiveness, this is actually not overpowered, if you define "overpowered" as "granting access to boss kills/enabling survival in situations where it would be impossible otherwise".

• This would work with Fallen Stars. This would make the Star Cannon very powerful, but it still competes for resources with the Space Gun, which is arguably the best pre-hardmode weapon in Terraria. I don't really value the process of farming ammunition for the Star Cannon, so if this change is needed before the Star Cannon will see use among most players, so be it.
• This would not work with the Coin Gun, because that would obviously make the Coin Gun slightly more overpowered than the Daedalus Stormbow.
• I'm on the fence as to whether it should work with the Clentaminator, but leaning towards "no". Clentamination is an enormous money sink and it seems like it was intended to be limited by the player's budget.

According to these rules, 100% ammo conservation would work with every damage-dealing projectile that can be put in the ammo slot.


I understand that this is no small change, and your first thought may have been "this is really overpowered". But I hope I was able to convince you otherwise, and since I did publish the thread, you can see that I genuinely think it's a balanced idea. If the need arises, I'm open to making adjustments, such as:

-nerfing the Star Cannon
-reducing the duration of the buff
-making it add an additive 50% ammo reduction instead, so only weapons like the Megashark and Chain Gun have 100% ammo conservation
-changing the potion's crafting recipe
​

But unless a lot of people say otherwise, I don't think anything like that is necessary. If a weapon is overpowered, it'll be overpowered whether it consumes ammo or not.

I've created a poll so you can vote among a few set options, but if you can leave a more detailed reply below, I'd appreciate it greatly. Thanks for reading, and I look forward to reading your replies!

 

[Gotcha!]

But unless a lot of people say otherwise, I don't think anything like that is necessary. If a weapon is overpowered, it'll be overpowered whether it consumes ammo or not.

/agree

making it add an additive 50% ammo reduction instead, so only weapons like the Megashark and Chain Gun have 100% ammo conservation

If you have 2 items that give a 50% ammo conservation, it still won't be a 100%. As far as I know, 2x50% chance makes the game roll the dice twice when firing a bullet. If the first roll succeeds, you don't waste a bullet. If it fails, the game rolls again for the other 50% chance.
So having 5 ammo conserving accessories/powerups makes the game roll 5 times, once per accessory/powerup.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I was taught.

 

[Baconfry]

If you have 2 items that give a 50% ammo conservation, it still won't be a 100%. As far as I know, 2x50% chance makes the game roll the dice twice when firing a bullet.

I understand this mechanic, which is why I specified that it would be an additive percentage reduction: 50% would be added to the conservation rate before the game checked to see if the ammunition was conserved or not.

This is not how the game currently does things, but this is how it would work under this new system- for this potion, at least.

 

[Lord Garak]

Remember when the coin gun was only available through item edits, so people ran around with 30,000,000 stacks of platinum coins and 1-shot in pvp? Fun times.

 

[Gotcha!]

I understand this mechanic, which is why I specified that it would be an additive percentage reduction: 50% would be added to the conservation rate before the game checked to see if the ammunition was conserved or not.

This is not how the game currently does things, but this is how it would work under this new system- for this potion, at least.

Oh, man. I'm terribly sorry. I think I had poop in my eyes when I read your post. My bad!

 

[652Graystripe]

The Star Cannon is the deciding factor here, especially given how (relatively) early the Ammo Rez + Star Cannon combo would be available. With some way to mediate that (making the potion harder to get, the 50% additive chance, whatever) to take that cannon out of the equation, I'd be in full support. Outside of the Star Cannon, 100% is completely fair. It's just that one thing.

 

[Baconfry]

The Star Cannon is the deciding factor here, especially given how (relatively) early the Ammo Rez + Star Cannon combo would be available. With some way to mediate that (making the potion harder to get, the 50% additive chance, whatever) to take that cannon out of the equation, I'd be in full support. Outside of the Star Cannon, 100% is completely fair. It's just that one thing.

I will try testing the Star Cannon to see if it truly is a busted weapon only held back by the rarity of Fallen Stars; in the meantime, would we be open to nerfing the Star Cannon if that turns out to be the case?

Though in my opinion, if the Star Cannon is overpowered, then it's overpowered whether it consumes Fallen Stars or not. If you're relying on the power of that weapon to win a fight, then you will eventually will be able to achieve that level of power as long as you wait for enough nights. It rewards playtime rather than skill or exploration.

 

[Gotcha!]

I will try testing the Star Cannon to see if it truly is a busted weapon only held back by the rarity of Fallen Stars; in the meantime, would we be open to nerfing the Star Cannon if that turns out to be the case?

I wouldn't worry about it too much. If the devs decide to implement this potion, I assume they can just program the Star Cannon to ignore the no ammo consumption bonus (although that might annoy some people).

Or they could modify the recipe for this potion to also include something from early hardmode.
Sure, this means no total world annihilation with the Star Cannon in easy mode, but the potion is borderline useless in easy mode anyway, since the main bullet here is the regular musket ball.
Once you craft the fancy ammo types available in hardmode, then the potion starts to get mighty handy.
They could also leave the potion as is and create an improved hardmode Ammo Conservation potion that does affect the Star Cannon. In hardmode the weapon won't be that useful anymore anyway.

 

[Baconfry]

but the potion is borderline useless in easy mode anyway, since the main bullet here is the regular musket ball.

If we follow that line of reasoning, the simplest thing to do would be to make the Double Cod a hardmode-exclusive item. And I agree that in preHM the potion doesn’t seem nearly as useful overall as it does in HM, so I’m open to this.

In hardmode the weapon won’t be that useful anymore anyway.

It looks like the Star Cannon will receive an upgrade in hardmode, if the spoilers are anything to go by. Vanilla Star Cannon might lag behind, but that new thing looks powerful as hell; I hope it’s not something I’ll have to worry about when taking the Ammo Res buff into consideration.

 

[>>Terrarian<<]

I actually have another better idea for this: 3 types of wells in which the only 3 differences are the duration, the percentage of ammunition reserve and the amount of materials used in its manufacture, the first and the lowest percentage lasting 6 minutes and have 30%, the second would last around 4 minutes and would have 50% and the third and last would last 2 minutes and would have 100%.

From what I read in the Official Terraria Wiki, I know the potion currently needs:
-1 bottled water;
-1 double cod (fish);
-1 moonglow.

so doing some calculations the first potion should need 2 moonglows rather than 1, the second potion should need 2 moonglows rather than 1 and 2 double cods rather than 1 and the third potion should need 2 moonglows, 2 double cods and 2 botled waters.

 

[SaltyBeggar]

This is not OP but reduces farming too much.
This would completely make the endless musket pouch useless.
Maybe buffing ammo reservation potion a little bit, but not in that way.
If you don't want your ammunition to end, farm tons of the ammo you want to have stored in your inventory.

 

[Baconfry]

This is not OP but reduces farming too much.
This would completely make the endless musket pouch useless.
Maybe buffing ammo reservation potion a little bit, but not in that way.
If you don't want your ammunition to end, farm tons of the ammo you want to have stored in your inventory.

i mean... the potion itself requires a bit of farming. A lot of people hate farming for tons of ammo, and i don't think that's a necessary or balanced requirement for playing as a ranger.

 

[SaltyBeggar]

i mean... the potion itself requires a bit of farming. A lot of people hate farming for tons of ammo, and i don't think that's a necessary or balanced requirement for playing as a ranger.

Each class has its pros and cons
Melee:
Pro: No farming necessary, only crafting a weapon 1 single time is necessary
Con: Low range
Summoner:
Pro: only dodging
Con: class with less DPS
Ranger:
Pro: powerful ranged weapons
Con: There is always the necessity of farming ammo
Mage:
Pro: (also has) powerful ranged weapons
Con: There is always the necessity of farming mana potions
I just think ranger is good at the way as it is, and ammo reservation potion at least reduces farming, as well as the ammo box and some other end / mid-game armor sets. If the potion itself requires only a bit of farming, then doesn't turn it in a potion which makes the user have 100% chance of not consuming ammo, only buff it a bit if it is necessary or keep at the way as it is

 

[Dapling]

Summoner:
Pro: only dodging
Con: class with less DPS

False.

Pros: Extremely adaptable and is the only class which actually benefits from using other damage types. Highest possible dps.
Cons: Low defense, hard to learn, high skill ceiling.

 

[SaltyBeggar]

False.

Pros: Extremely adaptable and is the only class which actually benefits from using other damage types. Highest possible dps.
Cons: Low defense, hard to learn, high skill ceiling.

Ok I said bull
Anyway, this pros and cons of each class shows why ammo reservation potion shouldn't have 100% non-ammo consumption

 

[Baconfry]

Even if we updated the Ammo Reservation Potion according to my recommendations, the potion would not be nearly as important or essential for rangers as Mana Regeneration Potions currently are for the mage class, I'll just put that out there. It doesn't make rangers stronger, it just makes resource gathering less annoying.

Unless you're suggesting that the best way to balance the class is to make it more annoying to play as?

 

[SimeaseKitten]

My suggestion is to add to to ammo reservation potion a 3% ranged damage decrease along with your suggestion. Besides that, I am all in for this.

 

[Companion Cube]

My suggestion is to add to to ammo reservation potion a 3% ranged damage decrease along with your suggestion. Besides that, I am all in for this.

Potions shouldn't debuff players taking them. That goes against the fundamental idea of a BUFF potion. The only item to do something like this is ale which is easy to get.

 

[SaltyBeggar]

Even if we updated the Ammo Reservation Potion according to my recommendations, the potion would not be nearly as important or essential for rangers as Mana Regeneration Potions currently are for the mage class, I'll just put that out there. It doesn't make rangers stronger, it just makes resource gathering less annoying.

Unless you're suggesting that the best way to balance the class is to make it more annoying to play as?

Ammo reservation potion already reduces farming, maybe buffing it, but not 100%. Maybe even doing ammunition cheaper, like changing ichor bullets recipe to 350 musket balls + 1 ichor, etc, which would already reduce farming very much. Rangers only have 1 additional thing to farm, only. It only turns annoying for people who don't use ammo properly. Don't think the ammo reservation potion needs to be buffed in that way. Maybe buffing to something like 33% or something like that if even ammo box + ammo reservation still not making good work for those which use ammo properly, but not 100%