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A TON of weapons tested against Empress of Light

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
By mastering whip stacking. Both Durendal/Dark Harvest are active at least 85% of the time, and I continually whip with the Kaleidoscope as much as possible until I have to refresh the two other whips, in which I do in a split second with no misinputs most of the time. If you want I could post footage but I'm busy editing other videos for my channel for now.
oh that's probably it, I haven't gotten frame perfect weapon switching, it takes at least full second to cycle through the dark harvest and durendel for me.
 

whoneedsnamestbh

Eye of Cthulhu
A lot of interesting things here.

Some weapons were shocking with how good they were. Bananarangs did surprisingly well, equal DPS to TNE and more dps than any other pre-mech melee weapon. I’m also surprised at how well Stake Launcher did, I know it was good after its buff, but holy hell. I’ll also point out how Betsy’s Wrath, which I always thought was meant to debuff, did better than almost every other Mage weapon. Finally, how Nebula Blaze actually did better than Daybreak, Vortex Beater and Solar Eruption, despite its reputation.

On the other end of the spectrum, Deadly Spheres, Christmas Tree Sword and Celebration did jack :red: for their tier, and although it isn’t surprising it does point out how bad they really are.

I will complain that there’s quite a lot of crowd-built weapons here, where they as expected got low versus single target, but I feel like that doesn’t reflect their full ability. Especially Death Sickle, whose piss-poor preformance against Empress shoukd be attributed to her erratic movement and doesn’t accurately reflect how well the weapon does against Plantera or mid-Hardmode crowds. Other weapons like this are Paladin’s Hammer, North Pole, Stynger, and CBC.

I also have to wonder how much of this is influenced by playstyle. If possible you could get someone else to test the weapons as well and compare results, although that is a lot to ask so maybe not.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
Finally, how Nebula Blaze actually did better than Daybreak, Vortex Beater and Solar Eruption, despite its reputation.
Daybreak might be weaker against Empress than most other bosses, I noticed every time Empress begins a charge all the javelins explode dealing no damage. This probably hurts the nail gun too.

I will complain that there’s quite a lot of crowd-built weapons here, where they as expected got low versus single target, but I feel like that doesn’t reflect their full ability. Especially Death Sickle, whose piss-poor preformance against Empress shoukd be attributed to her erratic movement and doesn’t accurately reflect how well the weapon does against Plantera or mid-Hardmode crowds. Other weapons like this are Paladin’s Hammer, North Pole, Stynger, and CBC.
This is not meant to be a definitive list on the complete validity of weapons. Just how they do against empress. Even though CBC got a similar time to influx waiver I didn't complain about it on Baconfry's tier list because unlike with the influx waiver I expect CBC to be a good crowd control weapon. There are 2 reasons I tried out CC weapons on Empress.

The first reason is stuff like the stake launcher and electrosphere launcher, these are generally considered crowd control weapons and if I didn't include them we wouldn't get to see that they are actually pretty good against Empress. Another example is staff of Earth vs. heat ray, staff of Earth is obviously a CC weapon and Heat ray a bossing weapon, and yet staff of Earth did better.

The second reason is memes... I find the fact stuff like chlorophyte saber is included in a chart of weapons to use against Empress funny. And I get to make funny comparisons.

Speaking of memes... I kind of want to try the shadow jousting lance, considering how the starlight test went I think I could implant that thing in the Empress while also flying at max broom speed.
I also have to wonder how much of this is influenced by playstyle. If possible you could get someone else to test the weapons as well and compare results, although that is a lot to ask so maybe not.
Yeah certainly, I don't really read guides or watch videos so I'm not too familiar with how other people deal with Empress's attacks, although considering the reactions I got when talking about a certain minion I'm guessing a lot of people like to put a bit more distance between themselves and Empress. I can imagine that a lot of weapons with shorter range wouldn't work quite as well like the eye of cthulu, razorpine... elf melter.
 
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Yeah certainly, I don't really read guides or watch videos so I'm not too familiar with how other people deal with Empress's attacks, although considering the reactions I got when talking about a certain minion I'm guessing a lot of people like to put a bit more distance between themselves and Empress. I can imagine that a lot of weapons with shorter range wouldn't work quite as well like the eye of cthulu, razorpine... elf melter.
...and this was one of the more important lessons that I was hoping didn't get overlooked with your chart, but I guess did regardless. No matter how much you know about Terraria 1.4+, or how proficient you believe yourself to be, there's always going to be something you don't know or something that'll surprise you. That's just the nature of games such as this, especially with so many improvements to gameplay & movement. 🤷‍♂️ 🥤

Also, being introduced to newer information should be exciting, at least that's how it is in the FGC. I personally found this chart to be very informative, seeing as how I'll probably never use half of this stuff, ever. I'm glad to know that if someone does choose to use some of these more obscure tools, there are surprisingly effective!
 

J Bame

Terrarian
I heard some of you wanted to compare results...

These are my tests that I did a while ago, done on Master so the fights last quite a while longer.

1618587668247.png


Gear used were variations of this build; what changed was the armor (Beetle Scalemail for Melee, Spooky for Summoner, Spectre (i think) for mage), and accessories 4-5 were swapped for an offensive accessory for the class or the Amphibian Boots.

1618587964127.png


The biggest difference between this and Qwerty's tests is that I used Wings/Dashes instead of the Broom, and that I had no minions or Sidearms (Betsy's wrath) with me.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
I heard some of you wanted to compare results...

These are my tests that I did a while ago, done on Master so the fights last quite a while longer.

View attachment 316819

Gear used were variations of this build; what changed was the armor (Beetle Scalemail for Melee, Spooky for Summoner, Spectre (i think) for mage), and accessories 4-5 were swapped for an offensive accessory for the class or the Amphibian Boots.

View attachment 316820

The biggest difference between this and Qwerty's tests is that I used Wings/Dashes instead of the Broom, and that I had no minions or Sidearms (Betsy's wrath) with me.
Ok some intersting differences.
First ichor arrows seemed to do better for you whereas holy was better for me, this is probably because I used possed hachet to inflict ichor.

Another difference, your xeno + kaleidiscope test performed quite a bit better than tsunami whereas for me they were about the same, this might be because I actually used the 3 free minion slots on non summon builds. If you don't use minions on your ranged build, but use all your minions on summon builds, then you're effectively giving spooky 3 extra minions. Which I don't think is fair if you want to compare builds.

Another difference is the stake launcher, for me that thing perfomred on par with electrosphere, whereas on your tests it doesn't look impressive.

Also your laser machingun did worse, I did multiple test and laser machine gun out performed razorpine and was comparable to tsunami. Were you letting LMG run out of mana?

Also the gap between crystal and chloro was bigger for you, chloro did overall bbetter for me but that gap shrunk as I got guns with higher base damages, to the point where xenopopper and vortex beater the (3rd and 2nd highest base damage guns) got equal results with sniper preferring crystal.

You probably aren't as good at aiming, or your method of avoiding attacks made it harder to do so, as most homing weapons seem to do relatively better for you. Also... tf are those nightglow times? Is it really that inconsistent? I might need to test it a few more times.

Also your nebula arcanum didn't completely and utterly disintigrate Empress.
 

J Bame

Terrarian
Another difference, your xeno + kaleidiscope test performed quite a bit better than tsunami whereas for me they were about the same, this might be because I actually used the 3 free minion slots on non summon builds. If you don't use minions on your ranged build, but use all your minions on summon builds, then you're effectively giving spooky 3 extra minions. Which I don't think is fair if you want to compare builds.
My tests were focused on comparing weapons, not necessarily comparing/optimizing builds.What I showed here was that Xeno when boosted by Kaleidoscope has more DPS than the Tsunami, which may mean that a summoner build that microes between Kaleidoscope and Tsunami could get the best times against Empress. I think that's something worth testing.
You probably aren't as good at aiming, or your method of avoiding attacks made it harder to do so, as most homing weapons seem to do relatively better for you.

Yeah, this is probably right. My mobility build had me constantly in between medium and long range from the Empress, and that can make a lot of weapons miss very often. With this in mind... it's really interesting to see that Piranha Gun, a weapon mostly used for its homing, looks average in your tests while in mine it's the second-worst weapon tested, being 35 whole seconds away from the 3rd spot...
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
After looking at bame's tests I decided to retest 2 weapons.

1618623724787.png

First was the stake launcher, Bames stake launcher test was much worse than mine so I decided to retest it, turns out 40 was a bit low, the averge of 3 tests puts it at 44 seconds.
This is still much stronger than what bame's test got though, 44 seconds comparable to the xenopopper, a few seconds slower than razorpine, and faster than the nightglow.

Speaking of nightglow bame's test had that thing all over the place so I decided to retest it, it had some variance but averaged out to the exact value I had before.

I also tried using the shadow jousting lance, turns out its short range prevented another starlight moment... that's disappointing.
 
I also tried using the shadow jousting lance, turns out its short range prevented another starlight moment... that's disappointing.
Interesting stuff, I planned on doing a Mounted Lance playthrough as tribute to Ghosts & Goblins, & expected Empress to be an uphill battle. If I remember, I'll come back here & share my results, since I'll have a full playthrough of practice behind me. 🤔🥤
 

Shyguymask

Terrarian
I heard some of you wanted to compare results...

These are my tests that I did a while ago, done on Master so the fights last quite a while longer.

View attachment 316819

Gear used were variations of this build; what changed was the armor (Beetle Scalemail for Melee, Spooky for Summoner, Spectre (i think) for mage), and accessories 4-5 were swapped for an offensive accessory for the class or the Amphibian Boots.

View attachment 316820

The biggest difference between this and Qwerty's tests is that I used Wings/Dashes instead of the Broom, and that I had no minions or Sidearms (Betsy's wrath) with me.
If we treat Spooky Armor as around an equal boost to Betsy's for the sake of simplicity, then you should be able to shave off a lot of time there.

On my Blade Staff Vs. Sanguine Staff video I killed Expert EoL in 42 seconds, for Master I think that translates to the mid or low 50s. I had Dark Harvest but NOT Durendal, so playing a bit more greedily with Durendal I would have most likely gotten under 50 seconds in Master. Add whip stacking to your Raven time and that should be around 40 seconds, a 14 seconds time save for simplicity (and being generous).

So now we have Raven Staff being 10 or (most likely) less seconds faster than Blade Staff with proper whip play. Now have Hallowed Armor and not Spooky armor (Hallowed is better for daytime), that closes the gap more. Then take into account Raven's unreliable AI when not playing as greedy, especially since someone in a playthrough wants to ensure victory over having the fastest kill time. (And I know for a fact striking with Durendal time to time is less risky & difficult than pretty much standing right below EoL for most of the fight to go for the fastest kill time). Then take into account that no one in a practical Summoner playthrough is going to run Destroyer Emblem over Soaring Insignia. Then take into account that a player might not be able to afford full Menacing & Ruthless on absolutely everything if they haven't put significant focus into farming money, like me. Then finally take into account that if one were to obtain Betsy's Wrath to boost their minion damage, it would boost Blade more than Raven.

Take all of this into account combined, and Blade is just better than Raven, killing EoL just as fast if not faster while having a way more consistent & reliable AI.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
So I'm thinking about changing some things about the chart.

Right now I'm testing 'alternate mage builds' and I'm thinking about removing the 'predicted MM time' columns to make space for them. If someone doesn't want them removed I'll make a second chart.

Another thing I was thinking about is colors, right now the colors just resemble the weapons they are from. I was thinking I could use the colors to convey other important information, like how easy it was to hit Empress with, this is what I'm thinking.
Green - weapon has fast homing
Lime - Weapon has fast projectiles and has long range but has to be aimed
Yellow - weapon has somewhat limited range but has no issues hitting within that range
Orange - projectiles move slow, or have a large spread
Red - Trying to hit Empress with the weapon was a struggle

Not sure how I would color the summoner section with this, whips are yellow, but some minions like xeno, sanguine, and blade would easily be a green.
 
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I'm gettin' some serious grass-roots vibes, but I support all of this! I think something like what you are doing & what @Shyguymask does occasionally, will be a great base for more accurate tier lists. I think the ones we have now are too arbitrary & opinion-based, which is... okay I guess, but having one that applies performance & "playstyle" difference is a great alternative. 👍 😏 👍

Edit: Almost forgot, making a "legend" to read your "maps", is always a good idea, so the color coding is a really good call!
 

Shyguymask

Terrarian
I'm gettin' some serious grass-roots vibes, but I support all of this! I think something like what you are doing & what @Shyguymask does occasionally, will be a great base for more accurate tier lists. I think the ones we have now are too arbitrary & opinion-based, which is... okay I guess, but having one that applies performance & "playstyle" difference is a great alternative. 👍 😏 👍

Edit: Almost forgot, making a "legend" to read your "maps", is always a good idea, so the color coding is a really good call!
You're planning to make a tier list? Well Baconfry hasn't updated his tier list in a long time, so maybe a new thread would be cool. I could contribute as I have strong objective arguments for a number of weapons.
 
You're planning to make a tier list? Well Baconfry hasn't updated his tier list in a long time, so maybe a new thread would be cool. I could contribute as I have strong objective arguments for a number of weapons.
I mean, I wouldn't mind, "if you want something done right...", right!? It may take a while to put together but, my ultimate goal will be for accuracy, not really for entertainment value or sensationalism (which means it might not be very popular). That being the case, each weapon will likely have an entire paragraph to accompany it, especially if the final judgment might be controversial; but yeah, I don't see a reason not to. 😏 🤷‍♂️
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
Chart has been updated!
Colors are now used to describe how difficult it is to hit Empress with certain weapons.

Also by @Dreadnautilus5000 suggestion I tried out spectre armor, I also decided to test a hybrid mage build while I was at it. As I expect spectre did much better with weak weapons and the gap shrunk with better weapons... but it still seems to overall be a bit stronger. Hybrid build was fairly comparable to spectre.

Looks like going full magic stat focus wasn't the the optimal build. Those spectre mask buffs really did their job!
 

Icyfoe88

The Destroyer
36 seconds for Kaleidoscope and dragon on master mode? Pure summoner endgame might not be as difficult as I thought
 

AngryNimbus

Terrarian
Such inaccurate and biased tests. For example, 305 seconds for the copper shortsword. I kill EoL in 3,05 seconds with this weapon. I wanted to provide some evidence, but it seems that the video was corrupted, so just trust me

But seriouly, I'd like to Phantom Phoenix being added. I tested it vs Duke Fishron
55 seconds, vs chlorophyte shotbow's 52
A huge advantage, however, is that phoenix destroys all the bubbles
 

mathbrush

Terrarian
I'm interested in seeing how whip+summons do when focused on whips. Specifically, how fast could you kill Empress of Light with Shinobi Infiltrator armor, Kaleidoscope, and a bunch of melee speed buffs (like mechanical glove)+papyrus scarab/necromantic scroll? Is it much worse than pure summoning?

Just wondering, since whips are basically the only good weapons that respond to melee speed buffs.
 
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