Weapons & Equip Band of Regeneration Changes

[TheSquishyDitto]

Yes they would be, as they would still be screwed out of a pretty great set of accessories. Frankly, there are flaws with both of your propositions (you still absolutely have to have Corruption to get Magic Cuffs and Celestial Cuffs), however yours are much, much greater. (Oh and by the way, believe or not, some people like to aim for specific builds while playing, and this suggestion would basically destroy their ability to do so.)

I'm leaning towards feeling dismissive on this point because of the amount of exaggeration. "Set" of accessories or just one and its upgrade? Why are the flaws in mine so much greater if both propositions result in Crimson being unable to get Magic Cuffs, Mana Bracing or not? At least with my additional suggestion, the Crimson still has a mage accessory solution, even if its not tuned exactly to your liking in its present state. No one's specific mage build is "destroyed" by this in a way they weren't bothered prior, and even attempts to provide equivalent alternatives. If you're unhappy with my additional suggestion, constructively tell me ways I can improve it (preferably in the thread dedicated to it).

There is no correlation here. Technically, the band is PINK, and if you think the Ball o' Hurt and Band of Starpower are very similar color-wise, you might be colorblind, or your monitor has poor color balance- desaturated dark purple versus more saturated blue. They're pretty different. And, while Crimson's set does indeed add health regen, Corruption's doesn't add mana regen. Your "correlation" is irrelevant.

The Corruption does have at least one item that promotes mana regeneration currently though: the Band of Starpower. If the Band of Starpower had never been in the Corruption, maybe I wouldn't feel it to be a more mana-based counterpart. With SzGamer's suggestion, it still has a mana regeneration item, the Mana Brace. The Crimson doesn't have a mana regeneration item at all, only health regeneration. The health-mana thematic correlation exists, even if it is a small correlation, due to a mana-based accessory being in the Corruption.

This issue has since been resolved, even if it's still not quite ideal (Mana Bracing needs to do something different because it's still blatantly favoring Corruption worlds for casters).

I fully support the Meat Hook and the Mana Brace since they would work just fine with my current suggestion (and would work out nicely if the Band of Starpower stayed in the Corruption), but if the Mana Bracing isn't how you think it should be, can you really call the issue resolved?

Or you can kill three birds with one stone and also pander to the people who want to shoot for a specific build without forcing them to generate a bunch of worlds, which, by the way, is what SzGamer is doing.

If the Occult Thorn suggestion was improved, only completionists and picky minmax-style competitive players (of which traditionally don't get discouraged by inconvenience and tedious grinding) would have much reason to generate a whole bunch of worlds just for an accessory. Also, if I may, in your own words, "Mana Bracing needs to do something different because it's still blatantly favoring Corruption worlds for casters"; that doesn't sound like a solution that prevents people from generating a whole bunch of worlds. At this point, having had to bring up the fact that SzGamer's suggestion doesn't do anything for Crimson mages as long as his new recipe suggestion stands for the third time in this post, the fact that only my ideas have had such vicious criticism for equivalent faults makes me feel like there's some favoritism going on, but that's besides the point.

Your point is? That doesn't shield you from criticism, that actually gives us more reason to throw it at you. As well, synergy or no, your proposition does not equally suit all magic users, as guess what happens when you run out of mana without Magic Cuffs or a Celestial Magnet. Let me give you a hint- it drops your health like a rock and kills you. While the Magic Cuffs do encourage you to get hit, proper usage of them results in it not really being a big deal thanks to the fact that the mana restored is equal to something like half the damage you take prior to defense calculation, which in Hardmode, where it matters the most, can be pretty high- but it doesn't mean you yourself actually take a whole lot of damage. Also, Magic Cuffs account for invincibility, whereas your Occult Thorn doesn't, making it even worse.

I didn't expect it to shield me from criticism, and it was only said specifically for SzGamer's single argument. The Occult Thorn only kills you if you use it poorly in a way that results in you spamming ALL of your health out without ever ceasing fire. Similarly, improper usage of the Magic Cuffs simply results in you dying from taking too much damage. Proper usage in both cases results in more longevity and effectiveness. In the case of the Occult Thorn, proper usage is where you avoid taking hits and don't use up all your life with sustained barrages. Drink a potion, let the healing ability work for a little while, regenerate some actual mana maybe. Similarly, for proper usage of the Magic Cuffs you don't want to let the damage you take become excessive, using some of the same methods to avoid low health. With some fine tuning, the damage incurred from casting with the Occult Thorn and the damage incurred from taking hits for the Magic Cuffs would be on par. The Magic Cuffs account for invincibility by virtue of the fact that they have to because they encourage and rely on taking hits. I can easily append a little comment onto the Occult Thorn saying that it doesn't drain life during invincibility frames, if that would make it any more appealing to you. It's really quite open to feedback.

Your proposition for buffing the band of regen is perfectly fine and in fact desperately needed, however the rest of your proposition and your Occult Thorn proposition are just not favorable for anyone because they screw over people aiming for specific builds and can completely destroy you before you even realize it. A health drain separate from your main damage is not a good thing, as that gets you killed quicker.

I'm glad you agree on buffing the Band of Regeneration at least. Encouragement to take damage gets you killed quicker as well, especially if your only source of damage in the area is a hard-hitting hardmode boss. "You will constantly run out of mana and quickly lose a lot of health if you improperly use this item" is a sentence that works for both accessories. Additionally, I did suggest that spending life on spells should increase their damage by a proportional amount, so although you may be losing health more quickly, your enemies will be as well. It has the potential to support a glass cannon setup where you're more frail but deal a large amount of damage, as opposed to tanking hits to deal an equivalent amount of damage more slowly.

With the latest edition of tAPI being out, I was actually planning on trying to make a mod for my suggestions within the next few weeks to fine tune the numbers, effects, and ramifications such that this series of issues would be resolved adequately. I apologize that our opinions currently differ to such a degree.

 

[SzGamer227]

The Corruption does have at least one item that promotes mana regeneration currently though: the Band of Starpower. If the Band of Starpower had never been in the Corruption, maybe I wouldn't feel it to be a more mana-based counterpart. With SzGamer's suggestion, it still has a mana regeneration item, the Mana Brace. The Crimson doesn't have a mana regeneration item at all, only health regeneration. The health-mana thematic correlation exists, even if it is a small correlation, due to a mana-based accessory being in the Corruption.

That's a pretty remote correlation, and there is definitive evidence against its existence. The Band of Regeneration is red because your Health bar is red, and the Band of Starpower is blue because your Mana bar is blue. On top of that, both the Band of Starpower and the Band of Regeneration existed before the Crimson was introduced, so any imagined correlation exists completely because you insist it does, or, in other words, it doesn't.

In the case of my suggestion, the Crimson and the Corruption have accessories which provide bonuses upon taking damage, which is a much more sound correlation considering it was done on purpose.

 

[The Hexagonal Donut]

I'm leaning towards feeling dismissive on this point because of the amount of exaggeration. "Set" of accessories or just one and its upgrade? Why are the flaws in mine so much greater if both propositions result in Crimson being unable to get Magic Cuffs, Mana Bracing or not? At least with my additional suggestion, the Crimson still has a mage accessory solution, even if its not tuned exactly to your liking in its present state.

Your proposition completely removes the possibility of getting both bands in one world, which no, is not a step forward, that's making the existing problem worse.

The Corruption does have at least one item that promotes mana regeneration currently though: the Band of Starpower. If the Band of Starpower had never been in the Corruption, maybe I wouldn't feel it to be a more mana-based counterpart. With SzGamer's suggestion, it still has a mana regeneration item, the Mana Brace. The Crimson doesn't have a mana regeneration item at all, only health regeneration. The health-mana thematic correlation exists, even if it is a small correlation, due to a mana-based accessory being in the Corruption.

I'm not even going to comment on this one because SzGamer already beat me to it.

I fully support the Meat Hook and the Mana Brace since they would work just fine with my current suggestion (and would work out nicely if the Band of Starpower stayed in the Corruption), but if the Mana Bracing isn't how you think it should be, can you really call the issue resolved?

I never said it was resolved, I said it was an improvement. Not being able to get Magic Cuffs (and thus not Celestial Cuffs) in Crimson worlds is still a serious problem in either case, however at least in SzGamer's proposition you actually get access to the mana regen band.

Also, if I may, in your own words, "Mana Bracing needs to do something different because it's still blatantly favoring Corruption worlds for casters"; that doesn't sound like a solution that prevents people from generating a whole bunch of worlds. At this point, having had to bring up the fact that SzGamer's suggestion doesn't do anything for Crimson mages as long as his new recipe suggestion stands for the third time in this post, the fact that only my ideas have had such vicious criticism for equivalent faults makes me feel like there's some favoritism going on, but that's besides the point.

Again, I never said it was a solution, I said it was better. As for the favoritism part, that's not the case, it's a case of your proposition makes the existing problem worse. At least SzGamer's proposition gives mages access to the mana regen band regardless of world.

Encouragement to take damage gets you killed quicker as well, especially if your only source of damage in the area is a hard-hitting hardmode boss. "You will constantly run out of mana and quickly lose a lot of health if you improperly use this item" is a sentence that works for both accessories.

And yet here's of course a thing that exists that I probably should've brought up in the first place- you're going to get hit anyway. Regardless of whether or not you use Magic Cuffs, you're basically guaranteed to get hit often enough to keep your mana reasonably high. So long as you use health pots well enough, it's no more of a problem than fighting without Magic Cuffs. On the other hand, all the Occult Thorn does for you is drain your health even faster in exchange for potentially marginally more damage and not having to worry about mana. Because, oh hey, our health regenerates a considerable amount slower than mana, in case you haven't noticed- you'd have to decrease mana cost significantly while using life for that to even be remotely balanced, either that or shoot stats through the roof. And of course this is in addition to you potentially getting hit multiple times.

 

[TheSquishyDitto]

That's a pretty remote correlation, and there is definitive evidence against its existence. The Band of Regeneration is red because your Health bar is red, and the Band of Starpower is blue because your Mana bar is blue. On top of that, both the Band of Starpower and the Band of Regeneration existed before the Crimson was introduced, so any imagined correlation exists completely because you insist it does, or, in other words, it doesn't.

In the case of my suggestion, the Crimson and the Corruption have accessories which provide bonuses upon taking damage, which is a much more sound correlation considering it was done on purpose.

Regardless of the existence or nonexistence of a color or theme correlation for the Corruption and mana, the Corruption currently and has always had the Band of Starpower. The Crimson's items on the other hand, have a definitive health-based themes due to the armor and Panic Necklace. An accessory that regenerates health seems very much at home in the Crimson, especially when the counterpart biome has the counterpart band.

Your proposition completely removes the possibility of getting both bands in one world, which no, is not a step forward, that's making the existing problem worse.

Is it a problem that only the Crimson gets the Golden Shower? Only the Corruption gets Cursed Flames? That only the Crimson gets the Vampire Knives? Only the Corruption gets the Scourge of the Corruptor? Is having different items in the different biomes for a different experience a problem? Should those biomes not have exclusive items at all so that every player build can be obtained without generating new worlds? I do not see how an exclusive Band of Regeneration would be any more a "problem" than any of the other exclusive items if the Mana Regeneration Band's recipe were changed and the Occult Thorn added.

I never said it was resolved, I said it was an improvement. Not being able to get Magic Cuffs (and thus not Celestial Cuffs) in Crimson worlds is still a serious problem in either case, however at least in SzGamer's proposition you actually get access to the mana regen band.

"This issue has since been resolved, even if it's still not quite ideal (Mana Bracing needs to do something different because it's still blatantly favoring Corruption worlds for casters)." ~ Henix_Aurorus

Again, I never said it was a solution, I said it was better. As for the favoritism part, that's not the case, it's a case of your proposition makes the existing problem worse. At least SzGamer's proposition gives mages access to the mana regen band regardless of world.

See above points.

And yet here's of course a thing that exists that I probably should've brought up in the first place- you're going to get hit anyway. Regardless of whether or not you use Magic Cuffs, you're basically guaranteed to get hit often enough to keep your mana reasonably high. So long as you use health pots well enough, it's no more of a problem than fighting without Magic Cuffs. On the other hand, all the Occult Thorn does for you is drain your health even faster in exchange for potentially marginally more damage and not having to worry about mana. Because, oh hey, our health regenerates a considerable amount slower than mana, in case you haven't noticed- you'd have to decrease mana cost significantly while using life for that to even be remotely balanced, either that or shoot stats through the roof. And of course this is in addition to you potentially getting hit multiple times.

Or decrease the mana cost and increase the stats equally maybe. If you say that's what it takes to be balanced, then balanced is balanced and that's how it would pan out, because, like I said, it's open for feedback. Once it's balanced to be an equivalent alternative that's exactly what it would be, unless you have a problem with exclusive alternatives.

 

[SzGamer227]

Regardless of the existence or nonexistence of a color or theme correlation for the Corruption and mana, the Corruption currently and has always had the Band of Starpower. The Crimson's items on the other hand, have a definitive health-based themes due to the armor and Panic Necklace. An accessory that regenerates health seems very much at home in the Crimson, especially when the counterpart biome has the counterpart band.

Yeah. Totally, but why stop there? Fallen Stars should now only fall in the Corruption and the Crimson should be the only place where Heart Crystals spawn. Healing Potions should be crafted with a Crimson variant of Vile Mushrooms instead of Glowing ones, and Vile Mushrooms should likewise replace Glowing Mushrooms in Mana Potions. Yeah, no.

Point being: Just because you can change something to fit a theme doesn't mean you should.

 

[TheSquishyDitto]

Yeah. Totally, but why stop there? Fallen Stars should now only fall in the Corruption and the Crimson should be the only place where Heart Crystals spawn. Healing Potions should be crafted with a Crimson variant of Vile Mushrooms instead of Glowing ones, and Vile Mushrooms should likewise replace Glowing Mushrooms in Mana Potions. Yeah, no.

Point being: Just because you can change something to fit a theme doesn't mean you should.

The difference with the Band of Regeneration is that it is red and has a heart on it. The Crimson is red, made of hearts, and even has an existing heart-shaped accessory.

 

[SzGamer227]

The difference with the Band of Regeneration is that it is red and has a heart on it. The Crimson is red, made of hearts, and even has an existing heart-shaped accessory.

Guess what? Heart Crystals are red hearts, too.

How did you even pull Hearts as the Crimon's theme? Any gruesome reddish organic matter would qualify.

 

[TheSquishyDitto]

Guess what? Heart Crystals are red hearts, too.

How did you even pull Hearts as the Crimon's theme? Any gruesome reddish organic matter would qualify.

I didn't say that hearts were THE theme of the Crimson, but they definitely are a rather important part of it, considering all the blood (traditionally pumped by hearts), the Panic Necklace, Demon/Crimson Hearts, the Brain of Cthulhu has a heart inside of it in phase 2, there is a potion made of a Crimson-exclusive fish that does the same thing as your Cordial Magnet, and so on. If Life Crystals weren't so vital to gameplay in general I honestly wouldn't be surprised if I had never played the game before and it turned out they were only in the Crimson, but that's not what I'm suggesting.

There's just a wee bit of difference between entirely removing the capability to gain health or mana from Corruption and Crimson worlds respectively, and moving one accessory around and suggesting an equivalent for the side that's a little worse off.

 

[The Hexagonal Donut]

Regardless of the existence or nonexistence of a color or theme correlation for the Corruption and mana, the Corruption currently and has always had the Band of Starpower. The Crimson's items on the other hand, have a definitive health-based themes due to the armor and Panic Necklace. An accessory that regenerates health seems very much at home in the Crimson, especially when the counterpart biome has the counterpart band.

I'm not even sure why I'm quoting this because everything I say will basically be exactly the same as what SzGamer has said already.

"This issue has since been resolved, even if it's still not quite ideal (Mana Bracing needs to do something different because it's still blatantly favoring Corruption worlds for casters)." ~ Henix_Aurorus

Regardless of if that is what I said, it doesn't change the fact that SzGamer's proposition is far more favorable.

Is it a problem that only the Crimson gets the Golden Shower? Only the Corruption gets Cursed Flames? That only the Crimson gets the Vampire Knives? Only the Corruption gets the Scourge of the Corruptor? Is having different items in the different biomes for a different experience a problem? Should those biomes not have exclusive items at all so that every player build can be obtained without generating new worlds? I do not see how an exclusive Band of Regeneration would be any more a "problem" than any of the other exclusive items if the Mana Regeneration Band's recipe were changed and the Occult Thorn added.

Okay, see, THAT'S different. Those have good reason to be exclusive to their respective biomes. They follow the same concept but are different styles. The Band of Starpower was originally added as a Shadow Orb drop because they didn't have any plans for Crimson at that point- as far as they cared Corruption was to be the only infection. That does not automatically make it a valid approach to take the counterpart to it, which has existed for the same period, and make it exclusive as well, especially for reasoning as flawed as yours. Both accessories are fundamental to gameplay, ESPECIALLY if the Band of Regen gets buffed, and generally speaking it's literally always favorable to have both, whereas with the spells and whatnot, they are basically equal and you really only need one. That is a really ty comparison. The different styles of weapons for the two biomes are fine, because guess what- they're meant to be that way. The Band of Regen was never meant to be Crimson exclusive, and you are forcing that concept onto it because of things that make zero difference. Following your logic, rubies should be exclusive to Crimson worlds, because hey, they're red. Or clay, that's red too. Oh, and the philosopher's stone, cause that has something to do with health. Or the Sun, Moon, and Celestial Stones because hey, they provide health regen. Do you see where I'm gonig with this?

 

[TheSquishyDitto]

Okay, see, THAT'S different. Those have good reason to be exclusive to their respective biomes. They follow the same concept but are different styles. The Band of Starpower was originally added as a Shadow Orb drop because they didn't have any plans for Crimson at that point- as far as they cared Corruption was to be the only infection. That does not automatically make it a valid approach to take the counterpart to it, which has existed for the same period, and make it exclusive as well, especially for reasoning as flawed as yours. Both accessories are fundamental to gameplay, ESPECIALLY if the Band of Regen gets buffed, and generally speaking it's literally always favorable to have both, whereas with the spells and whatnot, they are basically equal and you really only need one. That is a really ty comparison. The different styles of weapons for the two biomes are fine, because guess what- they're meant to be that way. The Band of Regen was never meant to be Crimson exclusive, and you are forcing that concept onto it because of things that make zero difference. Following your logic, rubies should be exclusive to Crimson worlds, because hey, they're red. Or clay, that's red too. Oh, and the philosopher's stone, cause that has something to do with health. Or the Sun, Moon, and Celestial Stones because hey, they provide health regen. Do you see where I'm gonig with this?

The Bands are hardly fundamental to gameplay. They're nice, but they aren't needed for enjoyment or progression. The Band of Regeneration is currently only important to a mage if it remains a component of the Mana Regeneration Band, and even then there's the Mana Flower, an already existing world-independent mage solution even if it was nerfed out of the limelight by Mana Sickness. The purpose of things change over time as new things come along; case in point the Band of Regeneration itself when it became essential if a player wanted Magic Cuffs. There is little reason it couldn't change again now that there is a nicer home for it.

Rubies have nothing to do with health, clay has nothing to do with health, Philosopher's Stone I could actually easily see being a Crimson Mimic drop if more mimics ever becomes a thing, and the heavenly body stones are neither red nor dedicated to a health-related purpose. I'm not entirely sure you are following my logic by lumping anything vaguely following just one criteria in. I have at least four reasons to put the Band of Regeneration in the Crimson, all of which are thematic and have been listed already (red, heart, health, counterpart band in counterpart biome), but apparently themes have zero significance if the item was created without the intention of having a theme and thus it should never be suggested that it be associated with a theme that it fits into very well.

With that being said, this unintended debate is getting bogged down by misunderstandings, circular logic, and many fundamental differences of opinion on both sides, and I don't think any of us will ever see the other side as correct. If we agree to disagree and let the poll do the talking (not the current condition, its future) now that we've gotten to the point of rehashing everything we say and strawmen for everyone, no one will need to watch their blood pressure. cuffs. ...sorry i had to make that joke i'll leave

I'm sorry if I upset either of you.

 

[SzGamer227]

The heart of many debates like this is the simple insistence that the side your on is the right one.

In these such cases, the only way to win is not to play.

 

[Dusty Sinclair]

I like the idea of making the Band more powerful, but I don't think it should be exclusive to Crimson worlds. Instead, the Band of Starpower should be moved to Underground chests and have a chance to spawn instead of the Band of Regeneration.

 

[Scarecrow]

a simple fix to the charm of myths dilemma
have it tinker with another accessory.
make it part of a utility jack of all trades or a ton of tricks up your sleeves accessory.

because what you neglect is that the Celestial Stone is an end game accessory, charm of myths is mid game.
regeneration potion is a limited time buff. regeneration from accessories is infinite and stacks with regeneration potion.
camp fires and heart lanterns have a limited range.

 

[stormconure]

I think rather than shadow orb/crimson heart drops, both should be found underground in chests. Other than that i love this idea.

 

[GIRGHGH]

Uh, band of starpower INCREASES MANA by 20! Not REGEN. MANA REGENERATION BAND regens mana, and it is made WITH the band of regeneration and band of star power. You would need both in a world to MAKE a mana regeneration band.