Game Mechanics Cap the max momentum damage of all Jousting Lances to 5,000 so that you can't abuse that to one hit dungeon guardian

Aceplante said:
hates cheesy exploits, yes.
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it's not an exploit, the item works as it should, it doesn't say how player should get the speed. It would be like saying that ender pearl canon is an exploit in minecraft. Tnt just knockbacks entities it's just how it works. Lance scales with speed it does not care for a source of said speed.

Moving beyond naming conventions, why does it need to be patched? it's a smart use of gaming mechanics in a sandbox game, it isn't even optimal.
 
Trypophobia said:
Vampire knives are the LAST thing that needs a nerf. They are genuinely one of the weakest weapons at that point in the game.
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How good are greater healing potions in your opinion? Because vampire knives are over twelve times as strong. That’s not an exaggeration. They restore 150 health in 5 seconds, which is a twelfth of the time healing potions do it. And in practice it’s always even more than that due to the healing bonus they have letting you restore 70 hp in the first second instead of the standard 30.
Seriously, vampire knives are so strong that the devs even made the final boss immune to them. Anyone who says they aren’t the most broken weapon in the game lacks a fundamental understanding of the weapon and its mechanics. Why deal competent damage if you literally cannot die? Even zenith requires you have to remain alive long enough against the boss to deal enough damage to it. If vampire knives aren’t broken, then greater healing potions are twelve times worse and need a ridiculous buff to be even remotely viable in any context whatsoever. We both know that isn’t true, so which is it?

Jousting lances are the last thing that needs a nerf. They are highly impractical compared to other options which are only marginally less broken.
 
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Dapling said:
How good are greater healing potions in your opinion? Because vampire knives are over twelve times as strong. That’s not an exaggeration. They restore 150 health in 5 seconds, which is a twelfth of the time healing potions do it. And in practice it’s always even more than that due to the healing bonus they have letting you restore 70 hp in the first second instead of the standard 30.
Seriously, vampire knives are so strong that the devs even made the final boss immune to them. Anyone who says they aren’t the most broken weapon in the game lacks a fundamental understanding of the weapon and its mechanics. Why deal competent damage if you literally cannot die? Even zenith requires you have to remain alive long enough against the boss to deal enough damage to it. If vampire knives aren’t broken, then greater healing potions are twelve times worse and need a ridiculous buff to be even remotely viable in any context whatsoever. We both know that isn’t true, so which is it?

Jousting lances are the last thing that needs a nerf. They are highly impractical compared to other options which are only margin
Dapling said:
How good are greater healing potions in your opinion? Because vampire knives are over twelve times as strong. That’s not an exaggeration. They restore 150 health in 5 seconds, which is a twelfth of the time healing potions do it. And in practice it’s always even more than that due to the healing bonus they have letting you restore 70 hp in the first second instead of the standard 30.
Seriously, vampire knives are so strong that the devs even made the final boss immune to them. Anyone who says they aren’t the most broken weapon in the game lacks a fundamental understanding of the weapon and its mechanics. Why deal competent damage if you literally cannot die? Even zenith requires you have to remain alive long enough against the boss to deal enough damage to it. If vampire knives aren’t broken, then greater healing potions are twelve times worse and need a ridiculous buff to be even remotely viable in any context whatsoever. We both know that isn’t true, so which is it?

Jousting lances are the last thing that needs a nerf. They are highly impractical compared to other options which are only marginally less broken.
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They do 30 damage brother, if you were better at dodging almost every other melee weapon in the game would be better. I can see the as a good offhand for when you're healing, but you still need to be in a crimson world, post plantera, have a one in 2500 drop, then find the chest to even use it. The scourge of the corrupter is just way better, along with the Terra Blade, influx waver, psycho knife, flying dragon, true night's edge, true excalibur, any chlorophyte weapon, death sickle, horsemans blade, the dang tree sword, and even the starlight all do more damage at the cost of you just needing to be good. Vampire knives are B+ at best, and the fact that you can't even use them for the one boss you have ahead of you is basically tragic. Also, 150 seems like a fake number.
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They do 30 damage brother, if you were better at dodging almost every other melee weapon in the game would be better. I can see the as a good offhand for when you're healing, but you still need to be in a crimson world, post plantera, have a one in 2500 drop, then find the chest to even use it. The scourge of the corrupter is just way better, along with the Terra Blade, influx waver, psycho knife, flying dragon, true night's edge, true excalibur, any chlorophyte weapon, death sickle, horsemans blade, the dang tree sword, and even the starlight all do more damage at the cost of you just needing to be good.
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You didn't bother backing those statement up with any evidence, so I'll look into it for you.
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29 damage times 4.94 projectiles times 4% crit chance times 3.75 uses per second = 558.714 base dps. Let us not forget that defense basically doesn't exist for the melee class either as there's a billion ways to reduce it for melee specifically especially this late in the game.
Let's look at the other options you mentioned...
  • Scourge of the Corruptor has 705.12 base dps. Keep in mind that you HAVE to forgo vampire knives to get these. Let's go over why that's an issue later...
  • Terra Blade has 589.33 base dps. this is only marginally better, but keep in mind Terra Blade has an extra stat it can benefit from (melee speed) and additional crowd control so it's actually probably still the strongest option here when taking gear and crowds into consideration.
  • Influx Waver is difficult to calculate as the weapon is highly inconsistent. Not only do you need to be hitting with the melee hitbox to maximize dps, the projectiles can and will miss if the enemy moves basically at all.
  • Psycho Knife's stealth is a meme and is never going to be relevant ever. It gets 663 base dps which is a marginal increase over VK, has colossal safety issues due to its laughably bad range, and doesn't even benefit from melee speed that much due to the 66% penalty.
  • True Night's Edge gets a laughable 546 base dps which is not only lesss than vampire knives, it has some safety issues due to this dps only being possible at fairly close range. The projectile only has 3 pierce which means it's not particularly good at crowd control, either.
  • True Excalibur has 249.6 base dps which is LESS THAN HALF OF VAMPIRE KNIVES. Every single chlorophyte weapon is even weaker than this.
  • Death Sickle has colossal iframe issues and neuters its own dps by knocking enemies outside of its "sweetspot" unless that enemy is a boss that happens to be staying 100% still. Let's assume you are still hitting with its "sweetspot" all the time, though, which means it has an absolutely pathetic 355.68 base dps. (it will never ever ever get this high in practice, which makes that number even more pathetic)
  • Horseman's Blade has a respectable 720 base dps. This is not as good as it seems though, as its range is limited.
  • Christmas Tree Sword is an awful, awful weapon. I don't know where you got that from. The dps is pathetic if you don't hit every projectile, and you're never hitting every projectile. Too inconsistent to calculate reliably, but if you somehow reached its full potential it would be at around 536.64 dps, which is less than vampire knives.
  • Starlight has extremely short range and as a result has safety issues. However, it has 914 base dps which is actually by far the strongest out of all of these by a large margin.
In conclusion, vampire knives having "low damage" is an absolute myth. Out of the ones you mentioned, it was better dps wise than 8 of the 13 weapons you compared it to, which means it's considerably above average dps in the melee class by your measurements while having great range and low spread. Please actually research your claims instead of just throwing things into the ballpark. Vampire Knives would not be a weak weapon even if they did not have lifesteal at all.

And also, why get good when you can kill duke fishron without moving using this thing?

Also, 150 seems like a fake number.
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Whoops, my bad, I was actually lowballing it.
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This actually means that in expert mode or legendary or master, vampire knives restore 190 health in the first five seconds you're using them. This means they are even better than I was telling you before.

Remember when I said the following?
Dapling said:
Anyone who says they aren’t the most broken weapon in the game lacks a fundamental understanding of the weapon and its mechanics. Why deal competent damage if you literally cannot die? Even zenith requires you have to remain alive long enough against the boss to deal enough damage to it. If vampire knives aren’t broken, then greater healing potions are twelve times worse and need a ridiculous buff to be even remotely viable in any context whatsoever. We both know that isn’t true, so which is it?

Jousting lances are the last thing that needs a nerf. They are highly impractical compared to other options which are only marginally less broken.
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You quite literally proved me right.
Jousting lances are only marginally better.
 
Healing from lifesteal is capped to 30 per second (in expert and above), and even with minimal offensive investment (sharpening station + flask of ichor) you can get to that number, since it just takes 400 dps with the knives to reach it. That's where the 150 HP in 5 seconds comes from. This is obviously absurd, and becomes even stronger when used on a tank setup.

Sure, the damage output is worse than other weapons (the theoretical dps is a bit of a misleading stat due to the spread and damage drop-off from range), but damage output doesn't matter when you are basically impossible to kill. "Just dodge" isn't a great argument since if you're good enough at dodging, it doesn't matter what weapon you use. The purpose of dealing high damage is that you have to dodge less (since the boss won't attack you as much). The vampire knives also accomplish the goal of killing the boss before you die, but do so by letting you survive more boss attacks instead of reducing the number of attacks you need to dodge.

Also, there's a decent amount of content to use the knives on, even if you rush to the end by doing cultist ASAP. At minimum, golem, cultist, and pillars all lie between getting the knives and the moon lord, and vampire knives are great during all 3 of those. Plus, you can use them to trivialize other content to get gear to make pillars and ML easier (e.g. better wings, insignia)
 
Lances are the last thing to need a 'nerf'. Dealing absurd damage at high speeds is their main interesting aspect, and capping it to fix nothing is pointless and intentionally fun-killing.

Although I would support a rewrite of the formula to make it more viable at low speeds and less broken at high speeds (see Calamity's formula rewrite, it works really well), lances need nothing. They're in a good spot, and if anything I would just ask that more were added.
 
This would be a lot more valid if:
A. People actually did this regularly
B. Dungeon guardian was like a real boss that wasn't just for funsies
C. The lance was good outside of this one very specific niche engineering application
D. This required very little setup
E. This was possible to do in a single-world playthrough
F. This was even remotely practical

And most importantly, if the boomerang-hoik cheese didn't exist. All you need to do the boomerang hoik cheese is like 50 blocks, a hammer, and a wooden boomerang and you can kill DG.
 
chewythebigblackdog said:
Healing from lifesteal is capped to 30 per second (in expert and above), and even with minimal offensive investment (sharpening station + flask of ichor) you can get to that number, since it just takes 400 dps with the knives to reach it. That's where the 150 HP in 5 seconds comes from. This is obviously absurd, and becomes even stronger when used on a tank setup.

Sure, the damage output is worse than other weapons (the theoretical dps is a bit of a misleading stat due to the spread and damage drop-off from range), but damage output doesn't matter when you are basically impossible to kill. "Just dodge" isn't a great argument since if you're good enough at dodging, it doesn't matter what weapon you use. The purpose of dealing high damage is that you have to dodge less (since the boss won't attack you as much). The vampire knives also accomplish the goal of killing the boss before you die, but do so by letting you survive more boss attacks instead of reducing the number of attacks you need to dodge.

Also, there's a decent amount of content to use the knives on, even if you rush to the end by doing cultist ASAP. At minimum, golem, cultist, and pillars all lie between getting the knives and the moon lord, and vampire knives are great during all 3 of those. Plus, you can use them to trivialize other content to get gear to make pillars and ML easier (e.g. better wings, insignia)
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Don’t know if the vampire knifes are the best at lunar invasion and events such as Martian madness because they are not very powerful at crowd control though they are good a hammering monsters that are standing still such as pillars without shield and ML eyes.
 
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