Terraria: Otherworld Changing of the Guard: An Update from Otherworld

[Scarlet Hunter]

If you are having trouble, maybe the problem is not with the bosses being "overpowered" but with something on your side.

I don't think the bosses are OP in any way, ESPECIALLY Skelly Prime.

 

[Tyrax Lightning]

Expert Mode sure has a way of REALLY making you need a ton of Buff Potions, & a good Arena Setup. I have been assuming this is normal.

I also am annoyed at how Defense is such a broken gimp Stat because of how it can't ever Benchpress its ENTIRE number into its effect... then I read people saying pumping Def onto Accessories is the ONLY way & nothing else can work... the one Stat in the game that's the most worthless in power levels... & I can't help but to Facepalm.

For me, Menacing forever!

With all that said, I hope one of the reasons Otherworld is taking so long is that so Boss Fights are being rethought in how they'll work & will have superior Dynamics in how they will be gone about. The Devs surely must have mountains of Data on how Terraria Boss Fights are with Players & they can learn from this & rethink things. (& not repeat uncool mistakes like how in Terraria WorldGen, Wooden Boomerangs practically never get placed anywhere ya could ever survive getting to to find & obtain them without having something stronger then it that obsoletes the Wooden Boomerang already by the time ya get to it thus defeating the point of finding & obtaining it... not to mention it doesn't even Craft into any kinda useful Upgrade...)

 

[Bubzer]

Actually, Pipeworks is hiring so that the Otherworld development doesn't have any impact on the timing or quality of the Console and mobile updates or Switch launch. They are going to rock it!

You'll have to forgive me, as I'm a pessimist, but when I see comments about hiring new staff, that tells me you're brining on people who have zero familiarity with the development of the game, and zero familiarity with the team... and you're planning on having these individuals, somehow, mitigate timing and quality on the console and mobile side of things... this tells me the PC side is going to suffer.

I don't find that especially encouraging. Particularly since what I saw of TOW looked fantastic, and had me excited to buy and play!

Look, the reality is there is no way you're going to be able to bring on a bunch of new people and meet timing and quality update metrics... not without leaving the new hires without support/direction/guidance... which would be a horrible mismanagement of resources.

Just to be clear here, I'm not in any way suggesting you guys aren't eminently capable... I wouldn't have bought Terraria in the first place had that been the case... but I think the messaging you're putting out is going to work yourselves into an unachievable corner, and could risk some negative publicity (Sean Murray anyone?).

I just want to see you guys keep expectations realistic, is all I'm saying here.

Anyway, that's my 2 copper.

Off to go take down Plantera for the hundredth time.

Cheers.

 

[landstalker]

You'll have to forgive me, as I'm a pessimist, but when I see comments about hiring new staff, that tells me you're brining on people who have zero familiarity with the development of the game, and zero familiarity with the team... and you're planning on having these individuals, somehow, mitigate timing and quality on the console and mobile side of things... this tells me the PC side is going to suffer.

I don't find that especially encouraging. Particularly since what I saw of TOW looked fantastic, and had me excited to buy and play!

Look, the reality is there is no way you're going to be able to bring on a bunch of new people and meet timing and quality update metrics... not without leaving the new hires without support/direction/guidance... which would be a horrible mismanagement of resources.

Just to be clear here, I'm not in any way suggesting you guys aren't eminently capable... I wouldn't have bought Terraria in the first place had that been the case... but I think the messaging you're putting out is going to work yourselves into an unachievable corner, and could risk some negative publicity (Sean Murray anyone?).

I just want to see you guys keep expectations realistic, is all I'm saying here.

Anyway, that's my 2 copper.

Off to go take down Plantera for the hundredth time.

Cheers.

Do any of you guys actually read the forums here?
New people aren't being "brought on".
An entirely new team has taken control of the development of the game.
Go back through the posts regarding TOW and see the announcements regarding said problems or just Google the situation.
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/04/05/terraria-otherworld-switches-to-new-developer/

 

[Safeman🌻]

You'll have to forgive me, as I'm a pessimist, but when I see comments about hiring new staff, that tells me you're brining on people who have zero familiarity with the development of the game, and zero familiarity with the team... and you're planning on having these individuals, somehow, mitigate timing and quality on the console and mobile side of things... this tells me the PC side is going to suffer.

I don't find that especially encouraging. Particularly since what I saw of TOW looked fantastic, and had me excited to buy and play!

Look, the reality is there is no way you're going to be able to bring on a bunch of new people and meet timing and quality update metrics... not without leaving the new hires without support/direction/guidance... which would be a horrible mismanagement of resources.

Just to be clear here, I'm not in any way suggesting you guys aren't eminently capable... I wouldn't have bought Terraria in the first place had that been the case... but I think the messaging you're putting out is going to work yourselves into an unachievable corner, and could risk some negative publicity (Sean Murray anyone?).

I just want to see you guys keep expectations realistic, is all I'm saying here.

You are making a lot of assumptions there and they are pretty pessimistic We'll continue to do our best to keep realistic expectations and news on our progress coming. Thanks for your continued support and patience!

 

[Vaikyia]

You'll have to forgive me, as I'm a pessimist, but when I see comments about hiring new staff, that tells me you're brining on people who have zero familiarity with the development of the game, and zero familiarity with the team... and you're planning on having these individuals, somehow, mitigate timing and quality on the console and mobile side of things... this tells me the PC side is going to suffer.

I don't find that especially encouraging. Particularly since what I saw of TOW looked fantastic, and had me excited to buy and play!

Look, the reality is there is no way you're going to be able to bring on a bunch of new people and meet timing and quality update metrics... not without leaving the new hires without support/direction/guidance... which would be a horrible mismanagement of resources.

Just to be clear here, I'm not in any way suggesting you guys aren't eminently capable... I wouldn't have bought Terraria in the first place had that been the case... but I think the messaging you're putting out is going to work yourselves into an unachievable corner, and could risk some negative publicity (Sean Murray anyone?).

I just want to see you guys keep expectations realistic, is all I'm saying here.

Anyway, that's my 2 copper.

Off to go take down Plantera for the hundredth time.

Cheers.

Once you know what Engine has really done for T:OW, you'll be happy Pipeworks is here to stay. Pipeworks is practically saving this game, the PC side of T:OW was already suffering to death with Engine.

 

[Scivreds]

Good Day, Terrarians-

We wanted to take a few moments to share some important news with you all in regards to the status of Terraria: Otherworld.

View attachment 164743​

As you all know from when we first announced the game a good while back, Re-Logic’s focus has and always will be on delivering complete and quality game experiences to our fanbase. This means that we will not compromise game quality for speed to market or for any other reasons within our control. Our team had a clear vision for this game – one that we shared with all of you with much shared excitement – and, as much as we hate to say it (and in spite of all of the reforms we tried last year) - the current state of the game is still equal parts far from that vision and well behind schedule.

As a result, we have made the decision to move on from having Engine Software continue development of Terraria: Otherworld. Re-Logic has possession of the game (code, art, sounds, etc.) as it exists today, and we have been examining the array of options available to us to get TOW to a place to where we can confidently deliver on the vision and expectations we all have for this game. After taking a good hard look at everything, we feel that a new and fresh start/direction is the only way Otherworld will ever reach its full potential at this point.

So, where does TOW head from here? The great news is that we already have a dedicated and passionate team ready to pick up the torch and continue the Otherworld journey! Based upon their really impressive work to-date with the Terraria re-write on Console/Mobile, coupled with an amazingly on-point proposal for completing Otherworld (after a thorough review of the game on their end), we have made the decision to bring Pipeworks on board as our new development partner for Terraria: Otherworld!

​

We know that the "radio silence" and all of the shifting development work aimed at continuing the journey for Terraria: Otherworld has been frustrating for a lot of you. It isn’t a happy or easy call for us either – however, we feel strongly that we owe it to our community and loyal customers to uphold the standards that both you and we expect and to focus on delivering the best possible games that we can for you all to play. The length of the silence was purely driven by "these things take time to occur and then set up" coupled with our desire to have an actual solution/path forward before just sharing the news about Engine.

Come whatever may, quality is simply not something we are willing to compromise on to make a quick buck. It may be painful in the short term, but our sincere hope is that it will pay off for everyone in the long term. Clearly, had we known this would be the scenario way back then, we would have held off on announcing the game until a later time - but such is game development. That said, we are really happy and confident with the new team and new plan - and cannot wait to get back on track.

Some quick details/questions that you may have:

• Scope: We will be working with Pipeworks to examine the entire game, from top to bottom, to see how it fits with our high expectations and core vision for this project.
  
• Timing: As we know more about the specifics of timing, etc and/or have fresh spoilers to share, we absolutely will - though expect the "quiet period" to go on just a bit longer while Pipeworks gets ramped up and we actually have new things to show.
• Impact on other work: Pipeworks will staff up appropriately so that the Otherworld workload does not have any impact on the timing/quality of the Terraria 1 Console/Mobile/Switch launch
  
• Other Changes: We will be doing a full refresh of all of the Otherworld public-facing locations (Website/Twitter/Facebook/etc.) - including a revamp of the logo itself As these are completed, we will be sure to let you know so that you can check things out!

Thanks so much to you all for your amazing support of Terraria, Terraria: Otherworld, and our company. It is that support that drives us every day to do amazing things for you and we look forward to sharing more of what is to come very soon.

We are sure that you have a ton of questions, and we will answer what we can – but we will not delve into some areas out of either respect or confidence or the unknown. So we will ask your patience and forgiveness in advance there.

Thanks!

its too bad pipeworks have other projects more pressing than TOW... i havent heard a peep or seen a pic showing any progress for about 5 months. its like it just disappeared. and here i was getting my hopes up.

 

[Vashnik von Shinra]

its too bad pipeworks have other projects more pressing than TOW... i havent heard a peep or seen a pic showing any progress for about 5 months. its like it just disappeared. and here i was getting my hopes up.

When they have something worth sharing and getting excited about, they'll share it. Otherwise, they're busy working on making the game. It takes time to develop a game and even more time when they need to work out the kinks that prevent them from testing out the new function they added. It doesn't get developed overnight and I'd rather see a video of a stable demonstration of their progress so far than a video of all the problems that the game currently has as expected of an alpha-version.

 

[Delete This Account]

its too bad pipeworks have other projects more pressing than TOW... i havent heard a peep or seen a pic showing any progress for about 5 months. its like it just disappeared. and here i was getting my hopes up.

I'd get used to waiting. I'm guessing we are more than a year away from anything worth reporting on.

 

[Scivreds]

When they have something worth sharing and getting excited about, they'll share it. Otherwise, they're busy working on making the game. It takes time to develop a game and even more time when they need to work out the kinks that prevent them from testing out the new function they added. It doesn't get developed overnight and I'd rather see a video of a stable demonstration of their progress so far than a video of all the problems that the game currently has as expected of an alpha-version.

id be satisfied with a photo of their work station (pc screenshot, idea doodles, or even a Chinese takeout box in the trash) once a month.

 

[Bubzer]

Do any of you guys actually read the forums here?"

- It's fairly clear to me you don't.

"New people aren't being "brought on" - I provided a direct quote from the Community Manager of Re-logic... here, I'll post it again for you since you seemed to have missed it the first time:

"Actually, Pipeworks is hiring so that the Otherworld development doesn't have any impact on the timing or quality of the Console and mobile updates or Switch launch."... and if that's not good enough, you can go look at it yourself... its the 9th post in this thread.

"An entirely new team has taken control of the development of the game." - No... it's an existing team... specifically, Pipeworks... who is already employed to bring Terraria to mobile (and console)... and they are hiring new people so they can meet their benchmarks... or do I need to post the direct quote from Re-logic's Community manager, yet again, for you to understand?

"Go back through the posts regarding TOW and see the announcements regarding said problems or just Google the situation." - Or you could, and I know this is a crazy whacky idea, look at what is being said by actual Re-logic staff members. Unless, of course, you're convinced that Rock Paper Shotgun knows more about the goings on over at Re-logic than the members of Re-logic.

Just sayin.
[doublepost=1502352663,1502352125][/doublepost]

You are making a lot of assumptions there and they are pretty pessimistic We'll continue to do our best to keep realistic expectations and news on our progress coming. Thanks for your continued support and patience!

I know they're pessimistic... I did say as much... but they're also realistic. These are fairly common problems within the industry. I'd hate to see Re-logic taken down by a rookie mistake. Best of luck!

 

[Kazzymodus]

- It's fairly clear to me you don't.

"New people aren't being "brought on" - I provided a direct quote from the Community Manager of Re-logic... here, I'll post it again for you since you seemed to have missed it the first time:

"Actually, Pipeworks is hiring so that the Otherworld development doesn't have any impact on the timing or quality of the Console and mobile updates or Switch launch."... and if that's not good enough, you can go look at it yourself... its the 9th post in this thread.

"An entirely new team has taken control of the development of the game." - No... it's an existing team... specifically, Pipeworks... who is already employed to bring Terraria to mobile (and console)... and they are hiring new people so they can meet their benchmarks... or do I need to post the direct quote from Re-logic's Community manager, yet again, for you to understand?

"Go back through the posts regarding TOW and see the announcements regarding said problems or just Google the situation." - Or you could, and I know this is a crazy whacky idea, look at what is being said by actual Re-logic staff members. Unless, of course, you're convinced that Rock Paper Shotgun knows more about the goings on over at Re-logic than the members of Re-logic.

Just sayin.
[doublepost=1502352663,1502352125][/doublepost]
I know they're pessimistic... I did say as much... but they're also realistic. These are fairly common problems within the industry. I'd hate to see Re-logic taken down by a rookie mistake. Best of luck!

Let me just clarify a few things.

With "brought on", Re-Logic didn't mean they put additional people on the job, they completely changed development teams. There's an entirely new team working on Otherworld, no one on the previous team (as far as I'm aware) is still involved.

Furthermore, and I say this as a game developer myself, as long as you have a good design document, a good developer can easily join or take over development. The new team (Pipeworks) was provided with all the work the old team (Engine) had completed so far, and they went (or still are going) through it to see what needs to be revisited and what can be kept, based on said design document. Documentation is an often overlooked (by outsiders) but vital part of game development, and from what Re-Logic has said, I think they have it in order.

 

[landstalker]

its too bad pipeworks have other projects more pressing than TOW... i havent heard a peep or seen a pic showing any progress for about 5 months. its like it just disappeared. and here i was getting my hopes up.

I seriously doubt that Pipeworks have other projects MORE pressing than TOW.
They would not have agreed to take the project on in the first place if they could not give it the attention it deserves.
PLUS, it hasn't disappeared.
Just because a company doesn't give regular updates does not mean that nothing is happening.
The problems related to TOW were created over at least two years. Do you honestly think that they are going to be fixed, remedied or thrown out and replaced from scratch in a heartbeat?
Fixing the sheer cluster**** that was the original TOW is going to take time and effort.
So be patient.
Anything worth having is worth waiting for.

 

[landstalker]

- It's fairly clear to me you don't.

"New people aren't being "brought on" - I provided a direct quote from the Community Manager of Re-logic... here, I'll post it again for you since you seemed to have missed it the first time:

"Actually, Pipeworks is hiring so that the Otherworld development doesn't have any impact on the timing or quality of the Console and mobile updates or Switch launch."... and if that's not good enough, you can go look at it yourself... its the 9th post in this thread.

"An entirely new team has taken control of the development of the game." - No... it's an existing team... specifically, Pipeworks... who is already employed to bring Terraria to mobile (and console)... and they are hiring new people so they can meet their benchmarks... or do I need to post the direct quote from Re-logic's Community manager, yet again, for you to understand?

"Go back through the posts regarding TOW and see the announcements regarding said problems or just Google the situation." - Or you could, and I know this is a crazy whacky idea, look at what is being said by actual Re-logic staff members. Unless, of course, you're convinced that Rock Paper Shotgun knows more about the goings on over at Re-logic than the members of Re-logic.

Just sayin.
[doublepost=1502352663,1502352125][/doublepost]
I know they're pessimistic... I did say as much... but they're also realistic. These are fairly common problems within the industry. I'd hate to see Re-logic taken down by a rookie mistake. Best of luck!

As someone who has first-hand experience with game development AND first-hand experience with TOW I can tell you that hiring new people does NOT slow down the development process.
When you hire someone, you hire them for their experience and skills. You don't hire people who are going to cause even more delays or problems.
Any artist or coder who has the necessary talents will enter ANY company onto ANY project and hit the ground running.
They do not need to know that project, they do not need to have played an earlier version, know the genre or even LIKE the type of game they are working on.
They are giving tasks to do every day and they will be recompensed financially for fulfilling those tasks to the best of their ability.
They will know what their graphics are supposed to look like because the Art Director will tell them.
They will know what their code is supposed to do because the Lead Coder, producer and/or game designer will tell them what is needed.

There will be a core of people at Pipeworks who have already started fixing, repairing or replacing the existing "game" but in that process they will have realised that in order to meet any deadlines or even to get the game completed within a reasonable timescale they cannot do it with the team as it stands.
Therefore they will bring on extra staff.
They will be skilled and trustworthy and slot into place with no further hiccups.

To be totally honest.
If you really want to see this title, just sit back and wait.
Constantly surmising as to what is happening is pointless. It can only be an improvement after the total car-crash that was the original product.

 

[Bubzer]

As someone who has first-hand experience with game development AND first-hand experience with TOW I can tell you that hiring new people does NOT slow down the development process.
When you hire someone, you hire them for their experience and skills. You don't hire people who are going to cause even more delays or problems.
Any artist or coder who has the necessary talents will enter ANY company onto ANY project and hit the ground running.
They do not need to know that project, they do not need to have played an earlier version, know the genre or even LIKE the type of game they are working on.
They are giving tasks to do every day and they will be recompensed financially for fulfilling those tasks to the best of their ability.
They will know what their graphics are supposed to look like because the Art Director will tell them.
They will know what their code is supposed to do because the Lead Coder, producer and/or game designer will tell them what is needed.

There will be a core of people at Pipeworks who have already started fixing, repairing or replacing the existing "game" but in that process they will have realised that in order to meet any deadlines or even to get the game completed within a reasonable timescale they cannot do it with the team as it stands.
Therefore they will bring on extra staff.
They will be skilled and trustworthy and slot into place with no further hiccups.

To be totally honest.
If you really want to see this title, just sit back and wait.
Constantly surmising as to what is happening is pointless. It can only be an improvement after the total car-crash that was the original product.

As an industry insider, I can tell you hiring new people is always, without exception, a risk. Every single time new people are brought into the fold, it changes the dynamic of the team. The more new people brought in, the more time it takes to adjust. Sure, they may be skilled and knowledgeable... but that's not what's at issue... how well that team will function as a unit, is. Contrary to what you're suggesting, and what EA would like to be true, game design and development is nothing like plug-n-play assembly-line work. Its an amorphous beast, which changes with each project, and especially with each change in the composition of the team.

"They will be skilled and trustworthy and slot into place with no further hiccups." - That is the hope... but it's NEVER a guarantee... presuming otherwise would be self-deceptive.

"If you really want to see this title, just sit back and wait." - There's little else for me to do... unless I wanted to submit a resume and portfolio to either Re-logic, or Pipeworks... which, no offense to them, but I'm actually quite happy with my team, so I'm going to stay put.

I do, however, want to see them succeed.

 

[Huskymaster99]

oh yeah

 

[Bubzer]

Let me just clarify a few things.

With "brought on", Re-Logic didn't mean they put additional people on the job, they completely changed development teams. There's an entirely new team working on Otherworld, no one on the previous team (as far as I'm aware) is still involved.

Furthermore, and I say this as a game developer myself, as long as you have a good design document, a good developer can easily join or take over development. The new team (Pipeworks) was provided with all the work the old team (Engine) had completed so far, and they went (or still are going) through it to see what needs to be revisited and what can be kept, based on said design document. Documentation is an often overlooked (by outsiders) but vital part of game development, and from what Re-Logic has said, I think they have it in order.

No offense Kazzymodus, but unless you work with Re-Logic, then you can't really speak for them. The team they've chosen to employ for TOW, is Pipeworks... stating they are hiring does imply 'additional people on the job'. Also, many of you seem to be assuming my comments are predicated on the announcement rather than the commentary within this thread.

What I'm addressing is within this thread... specifically comments from Re-Logic members... as opposed to the announcement.

To recap; An individual here expressed concerns that using Pipeworks to develop TOW, will detract from work being done on the mobile and switch versions, also done by Pipeworks. A Re-Logic employee stated Pipeworks would be hiring more people to make sure they could make their release times... to which I stated it sounded like the PC version would end up taking a hit, if the focus of the experienced staff would be maintained on the mobile and switch versions. I also expressed that claiming everything would be done in timely fashion because of new hires is a dangerous belief as it takes time for new team-members to jive with the rest of the team. That's not verbatim... but that's the gist of it. So, now you have the general context of what was said and why.

I do agree a good design doc and art bible can go a long way to ensuring the team can do what needs to be done... but there is the matter of the team's chemistry. I've seen incredibly talented groups of individuals fall apart due to not having good team chemistry... or too much being placed on new employees too quickly.

Team dynamics are like children... they have to be nurtured, and tended to regularly until maturation. Any sort of neglect can quickly sabotage a team, and destroy a dev house... unfortunately, it happens quite frequently with small developers.

 

[Delete This Account]

The thing I think everyone is trying to explain @Bubzer is that you're making a few assumptions about said team. You seem to be under the impression that Pipeworks already had a team of people working on T:OW and are simply making it bigger.

The impression I get is there never was a T:OW team at Pipeworks, and they are currently creating it from scratch. This is to avoid cannibalizing the Pipeworks team that is already working on the console and mobile ports. It sounds like the structuring is such that neither team has any crossover with the other, outside of the overall management of Pipeworks as a whole. I'm pretty sure Pipeworks has nothing at all to do with the PC version of Terraria, so that shouldn't be affected by this in any way.

Your concerns about new hires messing up team synergy aren't all that valid if there wasn't a pre-existing team in the first place.

 

[Kazzymodus]

No offense Kazzymodus, but unless you work with Re-Logic, then you can't really speak for them. The team they've chosen to employ for TOW, is Pipeworks... stating they are hiring does imply 'additional people on the job'. Also, many of you seem to be assuming my comments are predicated on the announcement rather than the commentary within this thread.

What I'm addressing is within this thread... specifically comments from Re-Logic members... as opposed to the announcement.

To recap; An individual here expressed concerns that using Pipeworks to develop TOW, will detract from work being done on the mobile and switch versions, also done by Pipeworks. A Re-Logic employee stated Pipeworks would be hiring more people to make sure they could make their release times... to which I stated it sounded like the PC version would end up taking a hit, if the focus of the experienced staff would be maintained on the mobile and switch versions. I also expressed that claiming everything would be done in timely fashion because of new hires is a dangerous belief as it takes time for new team-members to jive with the rest of the team. That's not verbatim... but that's the gist of it. So, now you have the general context of what was said and why.

I do agree a good design doc and art bible can go a long way to ensuring the team can do what needs to be done... but there is the matter of the team's chemistry. I've seen incredibly talented groups of individuals fall apart due to not having good team chemistry... or too much being placed on new employees too quickly.

Team dynamics are like children... they have to be nurtured, and tended to regularly until maturation. Any sort of neglect can quickly sabotage a team, and destroy a dev house... unfortunately, it happens quite frequently with small developers.

I'm not speaking for Re-Logic at all, I'm just relaying what they themselves have stated in assorted posts.

Anyway, you seem to be of the opinion, whether through experience or not, that hiring new people is bound to - or at least likely to - negatively impact the team (or in extension, the company culture). I however am of the opinion that almost all risks that come with hiring can be mitigated through a proper hiring process. If you hire people just by looking at their portfolio, then yes, you're being reckless, but there is a lot that you can tell about a person and whether or not they will fit in with the team simply from a job interview. Unless Oregon is particularly starved of game developers and Pipeworks have to hire just about anyone, I don't see that becoming a problem. So I stand by my opinion that when done properly, hiring additional people isn't going to negatively impact the development process (in fact, if anything it decreases the workload per employee, which relieves stress).

I mean, I understand your position fully, I just think that any instances of such a team breakdown actually happening were caused by a poor hiring process.

 

[Bubzer]

The thing I think everyone is trying to explain @Bubzer is that you're making a few assumptions about said team. You seem to be under the impression that Pipeworks already had a team of people working on T:OW and are simply making it bigger.

The impression I get is there never was a T:OW team at Pipeworks, and they are currently creating it from scratch. This is to avoid cannibalizing the Pipeworks team that is already working on the console and mobile ports. It sounds like the structuring is such that neither team has any crossover with the other, outside of the overall management of Pipeworks as a whole. I'm pretty sure Pipeworks has nothing at all to do with the PC version of Terraria, so that shouldn't be affected by this in any way.

Your concerns about new hires messing up team synergy aren't all that valid if there wasn't a pre-existing team in the first place.

"Your concerns about new hires messing up team synergy aren't all that valid if there wasn't a pre-existing team in the first place" - I hope you're right... and I'll leave it at that.