Weapons & Equip Charged Strike - Making Shortswords Worthwhile

Kefke

Kefke

Steampunker
I think that few of us would disagree that, when it comes to Terraria, shortswords aren't worth it. They do less damage, have less reach, and cover a far narrower range than other weapons. Generally speaking, they don't even have as much knockback as their big brothers. That's not even getting into the fact that the tiers stop after basic metals.

What I propose is a new mechanic be added to the shortsword, which would change how it's used to create a new play style.

As the thread title implies, I feel that what would make shortswords better is a "charge up" mechanic, wherein you would hold down the attack button to build power, and release to deal multiplied damage. This is based on other games, where short, stabbing weapons can be used to deliver powerful sneak attacks (something that doesn't translate well to Terraria's mechanics) by waiting for the right moment. I believe that this would encourage people to use shortswords as a kind of "high risk, high reward" weapon. That is to say, it would create a new play style, where combat focuses on dodging enemies to deliver carefully timed strikes, and skilled execution is rewarded with a damage output that can even exceed that of broadswords...but ineptitude means taking more hits than your traditional "walk in swinging" warrior type.

In my head, I envision this as adding up to two new stats, unique to shortswords. The first would be Charge Power and be the amount that the damage is multiplied by at max charge. The second, Charge Speed would represent how long a shortsword must be held to deal its full damage. It is important to note that I envision the multiplier as starting a x1 (base damage), and increasing over time to full - possibly with a visual indicator like a sparkle on the blade - so that even if not at full power, a stronger attack can be made. Having a speed stat wouldn't be strictly necessary, and depending on how much effect the Charge Power stat had, it might even make sense to weaken shortswords further, in order to discourage simply spamming attacks. It is also important to stress (and I feel this is important for balance reasons) that a charged strike should not increase knockback. Either way, I see adding a new, skill-based shortsword play style as adding several new possibilities for other additions to the game. Here are just a few.
  1. Adding new buffs/debuffs related to the speed and potency of charging.
  2. New "rogue" armours and accessories to compliment the play style.
  3. The addition of new, higher-tier shortsword class weapons to the game.
  4. Introducing evasive enemies who also vary between quick light attacks and powerful, telegraphed ones.

I also feel that SzGamer227's thread, Give Shortswords a Helping Hand deserves mention. While we differ in our approach to making shortswords more viable, we both agree that they could use a boost. SzGamer's thread also features a good list of examples for more shortswords in game, with sprites, which I think are excellent and beautiful-looking ideas, regardless of what other approach to making shortswords more useful (if any) is taken. I like them so much that I'm not going to try to compete with my own examples, and will just recommend that everyone go check them out. They're really great.

Edit 1: Adding a response someone made on a mod thread where I suggested the same mechanic, because it's actually a pretty good idea.
Pokenar said:
To add on to this, to make it so you can't just facetank everything while you charge it, make it so the charge "breaks" when you get hit.
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If we are going to bring charge-up to this game, then shortshords should be at the bottom of the list to receive them.

Sz's 45degree suggestion makes them work properly in a realistic scenario of elevated terrain, but their presence in content after the Eater of Worlds/Brain of Cthulhu would always be redundant without making them stupidly powerful. Spears are also the shortsword's immediate successor.
 
I don't see why you could not mix your suggestion with Szg's version (but instead of just 45 degrees just make it like all over), and no it would not be OP, you can still only damage 1 target at the time (mayby more if you are lucky and the mobs are very packed), compared too the other weapons like spear that can easy take 3-4 targets at a long line and broadsword that has a wide reach (in other words "safe" sword) that can take out several targets.

To be honest, the shortsword would still suck compared too the other melee weapons, except in for single target that mostly stand still scenarios.

I guess you could add Extreme knockback to max charge, not that it really helps...

Edit: + if there would be charge mechanic inplented, then it would kinda be a waste to just use it on shortswords.
 
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Esparado said:
I don't see why you could not mix your suggestion with Szg's version (but instead of just 45 degrees just make it like all over), and no it would not be OP, you can still only damage 1 target at the time (mayby more if you are lucky and the mobs are very packed), compared too the other weapons like spear that can easy take 3-4 targets at a long line and broadsword that has a wide reach (in other words "safe" sword) that can take out several targets.

To be honest, the shortsword would still suck compared too the other melee weapons, except in for single target that mostly stand still scenarios.

I guess you could add Extreme knockback to max charge, not that it really helps...

Edit: + if there would be charge mechanic inplented, then it would kinda be a waste to just use it on shortswords.
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You're quite right, there's actually no real conflict between the two. I think that the difference is mainly in our approach. Doing both wouldn't necessarily unbalancing, though I also feel that the forty-five degree angle tilt will only lead people to ask further why they couldn't just stab in all directions. Hence why I chose to approach the problem from a different angle (if you will pardon the pun). Szg's approach looks at the issue from the perspective of how to overcome the shortsword's difficulty of use, while I was looking for a trait that would make finding creative solutions to that difficulty a more attractive prospect.

Increasing knockback only at max charge is something I didn't consider. It certainly might be a possibility. On the other hand, I was looking at things from the perspective of an assassin/rogue standpoint, where it's important to pick your targets carefully and a botched backstab means immediate danger. It's probably a weak argument to base things on, but I didn't give much consideration to high knockback, indeed considered it undesirable, because I wanted that element of risk...in large part because I feel it is thematic.

On your last point, may I ask why? Each other weapon in the game has some unique mechanic that makes it more desirable than others in certain circumstances, in exchange for some drawback. Broadswords have their wide arc, but limited range. Spears can hit multiple times and in any direction, but require precision. Flails can be deployed as a hazard or swung around, but are more difficult to use. Spells are often powerful but difficult to maintain. Guns and bows can hit things far away, but have a resource cost. Etc... Shortswords are the only thing right now that has multiple downsides (less damage, poor attack angle, and limited range), but no real upside. Sure, they often swing fast, but it's not really been enough to make up for their deficiencies. Of all weapons, they seem to most need some additional benefit.
 
My first argument was that shortswords would be garbage against bosses. Then I told myself to stop being stupid, as most broadswords are as well. So then I said to myself, "Well, broadswords are nice to use against common enemies." To which I said, "Yeah, but this effect wouldn't work very well on common enemies due to the lack of attacking angles." Then, "Well, this could be useful against minibosses." "Well, yeah, but so are a lot of other weapons that can be used in more situations more effectively."

Put simply, Terraria's combat is too quick and frenetic for the kind of rogue-y approach you seem to envision. Particularly, the idea that the charge breaks when you get hit is something I very strongly disagree with. In any realistic combat scenario, there are going to be enough enemies nearby that charging the thrust isn't going to be a reasonably consistent combat option, as you're almost invariably going to be hit before you're finished. Unless the charge time is shorter than I'm thinking, in which case facetanking shouldn't exactly be a huge problem.

In any case, the melee class itself serves as a huge deterrence to this sort of idea, because, while rogues historically have low def, high crit (Or the real world equivalent), melee users have high raw damage, low crit, and massive defense. If the charge time is as long as I'm thinking, perhaps make it so that you can't move while charging? Then again, the frenetic combat style also runs askance to that. I'm guessing the idea is to encourage using the charge, so perhaps making it take longer to swing would work as well?
 
@Scironex

Well, I don't put the charge breaking as part of the main suggestion not only to give credit, but also because I could go either way on it. Also, it's entirely dependent on how quickly a good shortsword would charge as to how viable a mechanic it would be. An option would be to have taking hits reduce charge, but not take it away entirely.

As to the other point, I actually don't want to slow down rogues. In my opinion, it's a tactical decision to charge or not. If you spam attack, you do less damage but might get more hits off. On the other hand, you might also take more hits, due to the in-your-face range of the weapons, versus getting in one strike that's worth several while still being free to dodge around and not stay in counterattacking range. At the same time, while charging, you would be committing to an attack, and couldn't switch to any other combat option until the moment comes to release that attack, or you would waste the charge. I kind of see it as being the melee equivalent to the Summoner for magic, a different play style in the same broad category.

I'm not sure if that entirely addresses your concerns, but I think it also comes down to personal tastes. I have a friend that hates spears and boomerangs, but I love them. On the other hand I've never really liked flails or bows. However, I don't know of anyone who likes using shortswords. With something like this, they still wouldn't be for everyone, but it might not be entirely unheard of for some people to use them, at least.
 
Kefke said:
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Looks like I misunderstood what you were getting at. I was under the impression that you were intending for charging to be the primary mode of attack, with hitspam being used only in fringe scenarios. This makes the idea of shortswords significantly more palatable. Using charges on things like bosses, but switching to hitspam when taking down zombies - I like it.

You have my support.
 
Kefke said:
On your last point, may I ask why? Each other weapon in the game has some unique mechanic that makes it more desirable than others in certain circumstances, in exchange for some drawback. Broadswords have their wide arc, but limited range. Spears can hit multiple times and in any direction, but require precision. Flails can be deployed as a hazard or swung around, but are more difficult to use. Spells are often powerful but difficult to maintain. Guns and bows can hit things far away, but have a resource cost. Etc... Shortswords are the only thing right now that has multiple downsides (less damage, poor attack angle, and limited range), but no real upside. Sure, they often swing fast, but it's not really been enough to make up for their deficiencies. Of all weapons, they seem to most need some additional benefit.
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Idk, would be kinda weird that you could charge with shortssword, but not with broadsword and spears, (normally it should work the opposite, shorsword being fast but unchargeable, but heavy weapons like broadsword and spear being slower but having the ability to charge).

Oyeah, I didn't see any mentioning on critting in the suggestion, mayby adding some high critting chanse for shortswords would make it a bit better?
 
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Esparado said:
Oyeah, I didn't see any mentioning on critting in the suggestion, mayby adding some high critting chanse for shorswords would make it a bit better?
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I actually had that in mind for a support function. A charged strike would already deal more damage without a boosted crit chance to make it insane damage, but I can see having an accessory or armour set bonus that further encourages charging with that.
 
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