Game Mechanics Degradation of "Terraria" combat: Homing weapons

because they added duke fishron and his weapons, but the pumpkin/frost moon are the same as before. im fine with duke fishron, but he's availible too early in the game. most people fight him before the moon events, and so stomp him. i would be fine if he was moved to post pumpkin/frost moon, but he isnt. same thing with beetle armor. now the flairon, that is WAY too OP even for endgame, as it's like a more easily controllable homing easier to get version of the north pole, but for everything else i'd be fine if they were moved to post-moon. after all, people had to originally fight the moons without fishron stuuf, all the new potions, or beetle armor, and they still did it. the moons are way too easy with the newly added stuff.
hat still leaves the "reward" argument, the "sandbox" argument, and the "overboard" argument.
 
hat still leaves the "reward" argument, the "sandbox" argument, and the "overboard" argument.

not sure what you mean there. i would move fishron to post/moon, but leave his drops alone, so it would still be a reward. also, endgame was a sandbox in 1.2.2 and before, and i have no idea what you mean by "overboard".
 
not sure what you mean there. i would move fishron to post/moon, but leave his drops alone, so it would still be a reward.
right... because the horseman's blade, chain gun, razorpine, and blizzard staff totally arent stronger. ;)
also, endgame was a sandbox in 1.2.2 and before,
and it should be one now as well.
and i have no idea what you mean by "overboard".
just look at your suggestions. three arrows from tsunami, with 2 of those arrows doing half damage? yeah, sure seems like a good reward, ESPECIALLY after the moons. totally better than the chain gun.
razorblade typhoon with 45-50 damage? seriously? as if it doesnt already slowly chip away at HP.
the only thing that sounds like a good idea is a nerf to the chloro bullets, and not even your nerf, im talking downgraded homing capabilities.

also, remember, endgame is endgame. you are supposed to be powerful, or you will never truly feel endgame. where is the fun in that?
 
.....im fine with duke fishron, but he's availible too early in the game. most people fight him before the moon events, and so stomp him. i would be fine if he was moved to post pumpkin/frost moon, but he isnt. same thing with beetle armor.

Let me stop you right there. Fishron is so much harder than the moon events. He hits a hell of alot harder, he's a hell of alot quicker than most of the event bosses (PumpKing and Ice Queen move at the same speed as Fishron I believe but someone please correct me if i'm wrong) and he has a ton more hp. If someone can actually manage to kill fishron before they do a moon event, then by all means I say they earned that drop.

Also moving Fishron to be behind the moon events makes absolutely no sense whatsoever because there's no "end" or "win condition" to them. Wave 15 is generally considered by the community to be the "end" of the moons, but there's no clear condition like "x boss has been defeated" so how exactly would gating fishron behind the moon events work? There's also no crafting recipe for fishron either. You have to go into a deadly biome and catch a very tiny very quick, very elusive npc BEFORE the numerous hostile mob spawns manage to kill it before you even see it.

How on earth do you propose fishron be gated behind the moon events when there's no crafting recipe?

EDIT: And above all else, terraria is a sandbox game. You are absolutely free to use whatever you want in it. Nobody is forcing anybody to use anything. Homing weapons don't even work in PvP so there is no "combat meta" or even degradation of terraria combat in the first place. It all boils down to just clicking in the direction of an enemy really (with a few very specific exclusions. Summoner weapons being all of them) so there's no point in nerfing or even buffing homing weapons in the first place really.
 
Let me stop you right there. Fishron is so much harder than the moon events. He hits a hell of alot harder, he's a hell of alot quicker than most of the event bosses (PumpKing and Ice Queen move at the same speed as Fishron I believe but someone please correct me if i'm wrong) and he has a ton more hp. If someone can actually manage to kill fishron before they do a moon event, then by all means I say they earned that drop.

Also moving Fishron to be behind the moon events makes absolutely no sense whatsoever because there's no "end" or "win condition" to them. Wave 15 is generally considered by the community to be the "end" of the moons, but there's no clear condition like "x boss has been defeated" so how exactly would gating fishron behind the moon events work?
lemme stop you right there.
thank you!
 
right... because the horseman's blade, chain gun, razorpine, and blizzard staff totally arent stronger. ;)

and it should be one now as well.

just look at your suggestions. three arrows from tsunami, with 2 of those arrows doing half damage? yeah, sure seems like a good reward, ESPECIALLY after the moons. totally better than the chain gun.
razorblade typhoon with 45-50 damage? seriously? as if it doesnt already slowly chip away at HP.
the only thing that sounds like a good idea is a nerf to the chloro bullets, and not even your nerf, im talking downgraded homing capabilities.

also, remember, endgame is endgame. you are supposed to be powerful, or you will never truly feel endgame. where is the fun in that?

i mean it was a sandbox even without the powerful 1.2.4 stuff, and with it it's even sandboxier. and the chain gun, razorpine, and blizzard staffs are pretty hard to get, and they arent as powerful as the flairon. and as for the tsunami, i changed my mind, fishron's drops would be unchanged, but fishron would only be fightable after the moons.

Let me stop you right there. Fishron is so much harder than the moon events. He hits a hell of alot harder, he's a hell of alot quicker than most of the event bosses (PumpKing and Ice Queen move at the same speed as Fishron I believe but someone please correct me if i'm wrong) and he has a ton more hp. If someone can actually manage to kill fishron before they do a moon event, then by all means I say they earned that drop.

Also moving Fishron to be behind the moon events makes absolutely no sense whatsoever because there's no "end" or "win condition" to them. Wave 15 is generally considered by the community to be the "end" of the moons, but there's no clear condition like "x boss has been defeated" so how exactly would gating fishron behind the moon events work? There's also no crafting recipe for fishron either. You have to go into a deadly biome and catch a very tiny very quick, very elusive npc BEFORE the numerous hostile mob spawns manage to kill it before you even see it.

How on earth do you propose fishron be gated behind the moon events when there's no crafting recipe?

EDIT: And above all else, terraria is a sandbox game. You are absolutely free to use whatever you want in it. Nobody is forcing anybody to use anything. Homing weapons don't even work in PvP so there i no "combat meta" or even degradation of terraria combat in the first place. It all boils down to just clicking in the direction of an enemy really (with a few very specific exclusions. Summoner weapons being all of them)

it's pretty easy to fight fishron with a megashark with chlorophyte bullets, an asphalt bridge, and a hoverboard, but the moon events require you to loot traps from the lihzahrd temple and set them up, then you have to get enough DPS to actually reach a wave where you can get the drops, all while avoiding getting squished.
 
it's pretty easy to fight fishron with a megashark with chlorophyte bullets, an asphalt bridge, and a hoverboard, but the moon events require you to loot traps from the lihzahrd temple and set them up, then you have to get enough DPS to actually reach a wave where you can get the drops, all while avoiding getting squished.

Its also pretty easy to build a completely afk farm to kill the moon events for you. You don't even NEED any dps whatsoever if traps can do all the damage for you. Also the moon events have no clear win condition so you don't NEED anything whatsoever. There is no "winning" or "beating" the moon events.

And duke does a ton more damage than most of the moon event bosses can even do to you in a single hit. The real danger from the moon events comes from getting wittled down over time because thats all it is: a survival event. The only thing relatively close to a win condition in the moon events is surviving the night. And even then its completely irrelevant because if you die you'll just respawn over and over and over again (unless playing on hardcore but thats an entire different can of worms I'm not opening).

Because they have no win condition whatsoever, the moon events are impossible to "beat".

So how do you propose Fishron be gated behind the "completion" moon events though?
 
i mean it was a sandbox even without the powerful 1.2.4 stuff, and with it it's even sandboxier.
exactly. that is a good thing.
fishron would only be fightable after the moons.
how is this a good idea? why cant you choose which one to fight first? "terraria: the first sandbox game to take away choice for no reason."
it's pretty easy to fight fishron with a megashark with chlorophyte bullets, an asphalt bridge, and a hoverboard, but the moon events require you to loot traps from the lihzahrd temple and set them up, then you have to get enough DPS to actually reach a wave where you can get the drops, all while avoiding getting squished.
okay... even so, do you know how inconsistent it is to have a hard event (moon) before an "easy" event in your opinion (duke)?

i actually took no precautions, save for a lava trap, and i made it to wave 14. as a mage.

why would you have the frost moon before duke, especially if the frost moon drops better magic and ranged gear than the duke? that would make duke's stuff obsolete.
 
no one wants endgame to be just as challenging as early hardmode,

I don't know what kind of games you're playing, but most games I play get harder as you go along. Generic enemies are stronger, bosses are tougher, and invasions become increasingly hard to fight off. What kind of game gets EASIER in endgame? The only one that really comes to mind is Minecraft, and we all know how well that game is balanced.

endgame weapons are designed to be powerful, and if you dont like it, take off that emblem you have on, or use a spectre hood for magic weapons.

Endgame weapons SHOULD be powerful. However, they shouldn't be overly powerful in a way that makes all content after them easy. For example, pretty much all of Duke's drops make the Moon events a piece of cake.
Endgame weapons should make you feel powerful WITHOUT obliterating everything, unless they are absolutely the last weapons obtained in a game, and even then, not really, because that's pretty boring.

Also, don't disgrace this thread with "don't like it don't use it." Players should not need to purposefully handicap themselves to enjoy a balanced game.

and what about people who just like feeling like the master of their world, and taking advantage of the sandbox aspect? what then? you'd have just as much difficulty as early hardmode.

If you want to "take advantage of the sandbox aspect," go right ahead and down a calming potion, a builder potion, put on your building accessories, and go build something. Unless, of course, you meant have weapons so laughabley overpowered that Fishron and the Moons are like a sandbox, in which case, I'm going to have to disagree. Go beat up some pre-hardmode bosses or something if you want to feel like a god.

EDIT-
Fishron is so much harder than the moon events.

I'm almost certain that the devs said Fishron was added to give players a boost against the Moon events- Take down Fishron first, and then use his loot to properly take on the Moon events.
 
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Endgame weapons SHOULD be powerful. However, they shouldn't be overly powerful in a way that makes all content after them easy. For example, pretty much all of Duke's drops make the Moon events a piece of cake.
Endgame weapons should make you feel powerful WITHOUT obliterating everything, unless they are absolutely the last weapons obtained in a game, and even then, not really, because that's pretty boring.

You're forgetting that Duke is meant to be a sidegrade to the moon events as well though. Duke's weapons are powerful because its balanced around SOLO play rather than multiplayer. The exact opposite is true for the moon events. To get far solo in the moon events, you have to abuse things like the spike invinicbility or a mass amount of traps. Nothing in any game should require any one person to use cheats, exploits or have to rely on multiplayer to actually make decent "progress" in something.

Also technically, duke and the moon events are on the same level in progression (based off enemy stats and weapon drops) which is the current endgame. As far as terraria is concerned at this point in time, these drops ARE the last weapons obtained in the game. There are no others (until 1.3 comes out at least)

Heck, the sniper rifle from the dungeon (2 entire progression tiers before the moon events/fishron) is extremely powerful and can make you feel like a god. You oneshot almost every single mob in the entire game (excluding minibosses/bosses)
 
I don't know what kind of games you're playing, but most games I play get harder as you go along. Generic enemies are stronger, bosses are tougher, and invasions become increasingly hard to fight off. What kind of game gets EASIER in endgame?
isnt that kinda the definition of endgame? what kind of endgame is endgame if you arent strong?

Endgame weapons SHOULD be powerful. However, they shouldn't be overly powerful in a way that makes all content after them easy. For example, pretty much all of Duke's drops make the Moon events a piece of cake.
not really. for a magic user after fishron, the bubble gun is unusable due to range, and the typhoon chips away slowly at life, and still eats away at mana.

all of Duke's drops make the Moon events a piece of cake.
yeah, if you are a ranged or melee character, and even then, you can get better weapons from the frost moon, making it stupid to put fishron after the moons, especially when you get rid of the choice to fight him before.

Endgame weapons should make you feel powerful WITHOUT obliterating everything, unless they are absolutely the last weapons obtained in a game, and even then, not really, because that's pretty boring.
i agree, but the endgame weapons dont obliterate absolutely everything. if they implement a megaflare staff, ill agree with you, but now, no.

Players should not need to purposefully handicap themselves to enjoy a balanced game.
how the :red: is that a handicap? the emblem is kinda a buff, and people use the spectre hood anyway.
 
You're forgetting that Duke is meant to be a sidegrade to the moon events as well though. Duke's weapons are powerful because its balanced around SOLO play rather than multiplayer. The exact opposite is true for the moon events. To get far solo in the moon events, you have to abuse things like the spike invinicbility or a mass amount of traps. Nothing in any game should require any one person to use cheats, exploits or have to rely on multiplayer to actually make decent "progress" in something.

Also technically, duke and the moon events are on the same level in progression (based off enemy stats and weapon drops) which is the current endgame. As far as terraria is concerned at this point in time, these drops ARE the last weapons obtained in the game. There are no others (until 1.3 comes out at least)

Heck, the sniper rifle from the dungeon (2 entire progression tiers before the moon events/fishron) is extremely powerful and can make you feel like a god. You oneshot almost every single mob in the entire game (excluding minibosses/bosses)

You really don't need cheats, exploits, or things beyond a basic arena to fight the Moon events (and what's wrong with using a basic arena? The events were clearly balanced around arena usage). You especially don't need it now that Duke's weapons are here.

Also, the sniper rifle fires about 1.3 times a second. And no, one-shotting enemies that I could already kill in about the same time frame with a few more shots or swings of a sword doesn't really make me "feel like a god."
 
You really don't need cheats, exploits, or things beyond a basic arena to fight the Moon events (and what's wrong with using a basic arena? The events were clearly balanced around arena usage). You especially don't need it now that Duke's weapons are here.

Yet we all know that a basic arena won't get you far at all in the moon events so there's no point. Even if you minmax everything perfectly a basic arena won't be good enough to get you to wave 10.

And no, the events were clearly balanced around multiplayer and fighting as a group. An arena is only something that happens to be there. Nothing was balanced around an arena at all since nothing requires it.


sure, the bubble gun is effective if enemies dont move, and the typhoon is effective when all the enemies are in one exact point, a singularity of enemies, if you will.
EDIT: Absolutely false. As a mage that enjoys the bubble gun, you can easily facetank a santank with full spectre (hood) and max accessories with +dmg bonuses and maybe an ironskin potion. But you require a very specific setup for it this is true.
 
isnt that kinda the definition of endgame? what kind of endgame is endgame if you arent strong?

It depends on whether you're talking "endgame as in the game has ended, I have finished all the main content" or "endgame as in I am at nearly the maximum geared out you can be and about to take on the final content of the game." I'm talking about the second, which is "I've just defeated the Duke, time to take on the Moons."

not really. for a magic user after fishron, the bubble gun is unusable due to range, and the typhoon chips away slowly at life, and still eats away at mana.

Bubble Gun is one of the only Fishron drops that's actually well balanced. Extremely high damage, but you need to be in close range for it to be effective, which is dangerous for a squishy wizard. As for Typhoon, it's also decently balanced. Weak against single targets, but does massive damage as a "fire and forget" weapon on crowds in the Moons. It's mainly Flairon that I have issues with (though I have a slight problem with Tsunami as well).

yeah, if you are a ranged or melee character, and even then, you can get better weapons from the frost moon, making it stupid to put fishron after the moons, especially when you get rid of the choice to fight him before.

Tsunami is the best bow in the game. You're not getting a better bow from the Moons. Chaingun probably has some advantages of Tsunami against single targets, but Tsunami with Holy Arrows utterly obliterates Moons.

As for melee, what better melee weapon are you going to be getting from the Frost Moon than the FLAIRON? North Pole? Pssh, maybe, if you're aiming straight up at something and get the full snow storm blast on it. It's pretty hard to beat massive swarms of homing bubbles, plus an extremely long range flail with no traditional flail physics holding it back.
how the :red: is that a handicap? the emblem is kinda a buff, and people use the spectre hood anyway.

How is purposefully limiting your own power because the game has balance issues NOT purposefully handicapping yourself?
 
It depends on whether you're talking "endgame as in the game has ended, I have finished all the main content" or "endgame as in I am at nearly the maximum geared out you can be and about to take on the final content of the game." I'm talking about the second, which is "I've just defeated the Duke, time to take on the Moons."
and... what do you need for the moons?
powerful weapons.
does this thread involve powerful weapons?
yes.
does this thread like weapons such as these?
no.

Tsunami is the best bow in the game. You're not getting a better bow from the Moons. Chaingun probably has some advantages of Tsunami against single targets, but Tsunami with Holy Arrows utterly obliterates Moons.
guns DO exist, y'know.

no traditional flail physics holding it back.
you mean like being able to keep it out? it doesnt even need to keep spawning bubbles during it....

How is purposefully limiting your own power because the game has balance issues NOT purposefully handicapping yourself?
considering equipping both items is a buff/debuff respectively, and PEOPLE ALREADY EQUIP THE DEBUFF....
 
Yet we all know that a basic arena won't get you far at all in the moon events so there's no point. Even if you minmax everything perfectly a basic arena won't be good enough to get you to wave 10.

And no, the events were clearly balanced around multiplayer and fighting as a group. An arena is only something that happens to be there. Nothing was balanced around an arena at all since nothing requires it.



EDIT: Absolutely false. As a mage that enjoys the bubble gun, you can easily facetank a santank with full spectre (hood) and max accessories with +dmg bonuses and maybe an ironskin potion. But you require a very specific setup for it this is true.

who uses a "basic" arena in the pumpkin/frost moon? they're endgame events. basic doesn't cut it, and with a decent arena, you can reach the higher waves. also, people actually managed to defeat the moon events before the new potions, fishron stuff, and beetle armor were introduced. the moons are a joke with fishron stuff, especially the flairon.
 
also, people actually managed to defeat the moon events before the new potions, fishron stuff, and beetle armor were introduced....

No they didn't. The moon events don't have a win condition and thus, cannot be "beaten" or "defeated" They only survived the night. Big big difference between the two. The moon events are unbeatable because there is no win condition or objective.

The basic arena part is in response to what Lecic said about not needing anything beyond a basic arena so you'd do well to read everything in your own topic before trying to answer something. For example, you still haven't told us how exactly to gate fishron behind the moon events either. Please do elaborate on your idea of that.

Also almost all homing weapons are endgame weapons with absolutely nothing after them so there's no reason to change them at all in the first place. There is no "terraria combat meta" or anything along those lines because its a sandbox game. Do what you want, build what you want, when you want, how you want. In the end, terraria is a PvE sandbox game and thus shouldn't need balancing or nerfing at all because the player can choose to use something or to do something or to not use or do something.

Homing weapons are perfectly fine with how they function and don't require any changes at all. (Except Spectre Staff thats pretty useless)
 
No they didn't. The moon events don't have a win condition and thus, cannot be "beaten" or "defeated" They only survived the night. Big big difference between the two. The moon events are unbeatable because there is no win condition or objective.

The basic arena part is in response to what Lecic said about not needing anything beyond a basic arena so you'd do well to read everything in your own topic before trying to answer something. For example, you still haven't told us how exactly to gate fishron behind the moon events either. Please do elaborate on your idea of that.

Also almost all homing weapons are endgame weapons with absolutely nothing after them so there's no reason to change them at all in the first place. There is no "terraria combat meta" or anything along those lines because its a sandbox game. Do what you want, build what you want, when you want, how you want. In the end, terraria is a PvE sandbox game and thus shouldn't need balancing or nerfing at all because the player can choose to use something or to do something or to not use or do something.

Homing weapons are perfectly fine with how they function and don't require any changes at all. (Except Spectre Staff thats pretty useless)

by "defeat" i mean reach wave 15/20 and get all the loot. and as for making fishron only fightable after the events, i would have a drop of the ice queen be a critter net that can catch truffle worms.
 
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