*DEVS* Did you even playtest 1.4 master mode??? #OVERTUNED

For those who want more difficulty than the master mode alone, with more difficulty in the AI of the monsters, there is this seed, ready, the game is complete.
For the Worthy has Tiny Golem. I don't think it's really meant to be a replacement for it, more like an actual joke. Kind of odd that an actual joke had more effort put into it than an official difficulty meant to draw in players both old and new alike, don't you think?
 
You claimed yourself that you got one shot by giant tortoises; no game should ever allow such a feat to happen, because it is unfair and players don't have fun when the situation is unfair.
It happened while i was distracted fighting the mechanic boss, near the arena there was a jungle bait farm.
 
That... doesn't really help your point. Enemies shouldn't even spawn during a boss anyway, as that is also unfair (this is a problem unrelated to Master Mode though). What other good game have you heard of that does this?
I meant it was my fault, I could have fought away from the area with the jungle or used methods to reduce spawning monsters.
 
I meant it was my fault, I could have fought away from the area with the jungle or used methods to reduce spawning monsters.
Not really. You were playing in night time, visibility is very low. I wouldn't have spotted any tortoises on my screen because it has a hard time processing darkness for some reason.
 
Not really. You were playing in night time, visibility is very low. I wouldn't have spotted any tortoises on my screen because it has a hard time processing darkness for some reason.
I had seen the turtle a long time before, I avoided several attacks of it thinking that I could focus on the boss the whole fight, if the turtle hit me it was just to heal with the nurse with the return potion, I just didn't know that the turtle was going kill me with one stroke, and she doing it in the end is what it should be, master mode must be "ultra hard" the way it already is.
 
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Yeah, I can't imagine just playing Master Mode. My wife and I have used it in Journey Mode for some boss fights. That's it. We normally have things on expert otherwise.
 
Yeah, I can't imagine just playing Master Mode. My wife and I have used it in Journey Mode for some boss fights. That's it. We normally have things on expert otherwise.
The master mode is for those who are used to expert mode in 1.3 and those looking for a bigger challenge, this is a game that has rewards for the player who plays in the most difficult difficulty, it offers additional content in expert mode and a little more in master mode, the difference in playing in a more challenging mode is not only the challenge itself, the player also gains additional content, I played in normal mode only once, when I first met the game in 1.3, after that I can't imagine playing out from master mode (or out of expert mode in 1.3).
 
The master mode is for those who are used to expert mode in 1.3 and those looking for a bigger challenge, this is a game that has rewards for the player who plays in the most difficult difficulty, it offers additional content in expert mode and a little more in master mode, the difference in playing in a more challenging mode is not only the challenge itself, the player also gains additional content, I played in normal mode only once, when I first met the game in 1.3, after that I can't imagine playing out from master mode (or out of expert mode in 1.3).
How can we make you understand that just simply raising health and damage does not make a gamemode difficult?
 
The reason that I cannot be convinced master mode wasn't a failure is because most people's opinions on it are:
a) it's too overtuned and punishing.
b) there were no new attack patterns and therefore no new content as a result, and the tryhards were let down on the mode that was supposedly meant to be for them.

I guess this depends on how you define "failure".

The developers made it abundantly clear before 1.4 came out that Master Mode would be only stat tweaks. You can say that this doesn't represent worthwhile content for how you want your game made "harder", but Master Mode was always intended to be "Expert Mode with more punishment for failure."

It isn't a failure if it's doing exactly what it was meant to do. It's only a question of whether that was a thing worth doing. For some people, extra-punishment is a valid and entertaining domain of "difficulty." For others, it isn't.
 
How can we make you understand that just simply raising health and damage does not make a gamemode difficult?

You can't, because it's not true.

Heavier punishment of failures is very much a domain of difficulty. A high-wire act without a net requires no more out of the artist than a high-wire act with a net. But it feels more engaging because you know that the slightest misstep can lead to disaster.

As such, increasing punishments is a valid domain for videogame difficulty. We see it used everywhere in game design. Indeed, most games that have harder difficulty levels primarily do so by cranking up monster health and damage; this is a common thing in gaming.

You may not like it, and you may not think that it makes the game harder in an interesting way. But you can't say it isn't "difficulty" when an entire industry clearly disagrees and has done so for decades.

Personally, stat-tweaking difficulty is why I don't play even Expert Mode, let alone Master Mode: because I find the added punishment in Expert Mode (ie: raising health and damage) to not be particularly engaging. I would love a version of Expert Mode that had all of its AI changes without the stat tweaks, but I'm not interested in slogging through larger bags of Hp.

And yet, lots of other people clearly are interested in slogging through larger bags of Hp. They consider this to be an appropriate domain of difficulty.
 
You can't, because it's not true.

Heavier punishment of failures is very much a domain of difficulty. A high-wire act without a net requires no more out of the artist than a high-wire act with a net. But it feels more engaging because you know that the slightest misstep can lead to disaster.

As such, increasing punishments is a valid domain for videogame difficulty. We see it used everywhere in game design. Indeed, most games that have harder difficulty levels primarily do so by cranking up monster health and damage; this is a common thing in gaming.

You may not like it, and you may not think that it makes the game harder in an interesting way. But you can't say it isn't "difficulty" when an entire industry clearly disagrees and has done so for decades.

Personally, stat-tweaking difficulty is why I don't play even Expert Mode, let alone Master Mode: because I find the added punishment in Expert Mode (ie: raising health and damage) to not be particularly engaging. I would love a version of Expert Mode that had all of its AI changes without the stat tweaks, but I'm not interested in slogging through larger bags of Hp.

And yet, lots of other people clearly are interested in slogging through larger bags of Hp. They consider this to be an appropriate domain of difficulty.
Heavier punishment only creates fake difficulty and frustrates the players trying the gamemode out. How are you going to make people appreciate the game if enemies are clearly bullet sponges that can kill you in under 2 hits?
Expert mode is different because it actually changes the bosses' AI to make them more difficult, not just with stat changes. Friendly reminder that Re-Logic stated Master mode to only have stat changes well over 5 months before 1.4's release, yet they still thought it was a good idea to push it to the "tryhards who want a challenge".
Then again you probably haven't experienced Master mode to actually understand the complaints about it.
 
Heavier punishment only creates fake difficulty and frustrates the players trying the gamemode out. How are you going to make people appreciate the game if enemies are clearly bullet sponges that can kill you in under 2 hits?

I could say (and have said) the exact same thing about Expert Mode. Which is my point: "fake difficulty" is an opinion.

You consider the stat changes to Master Mode to be "fake difficulty". But you do not consider the stat changes to Expert Mode to be "fake difficulty". Maybe you excuse them because they also came with some AI changes, as if the two were inseparable rather than being separate design choices. Maybe you're fine with them because the stat changes are not extreme enough to cross some line for you.

Regardless of the reason why you accept it in one area and not another, what matters is that where that line gets drawn is ultimately an opinion. If someone else draws their line farther away and finds Master Mode's difficulty to not be "fake difficulty", that's their right. You can discuss where that line should be and why you feel Master Mode goes too far.

But you cannot simply state that your line is right and theirs is wrong as if it were an immutable fact.

Friendly reminder that Re-Logic stated Master mode to only have stat changes well over 5 months before 1.4's release, yet they still thought it was a good idea to push it to the "tryhards who want a challenge".

You should take this as a lesson to pay more attention to what a feature is than how it is marketed. ;)
 
I could say (and have said) the exact same thing about Expert Mode. Which is my point: "fake difficulty" is an opinion.

You consider the stat changes to Master Mode to be "fake difficulty". But you do not consider the stat changes to Expert Mode to be "fake difficulty". Maybe you excuse them because they also came with some AI changes, as if the two were inseparable rather than being separate design choices. Maybe you're fine with them because the stat changes are not extreme enough to cross some line for you.

Regardless of the reason why you accept it in one area and not another, what matters is that where that line gets drawn is ultimately an opinion. If someone else draws their line farther away and finds Master Mode's difficulty to not be "fake difficulty", that's their right. You can discuss where that line should be and why you feel Master Mode goes too far.

But you cannot simply state that your line is right and theirs is wrong as if it were an immutable fact.



You should take this as a lesson to pay more attention to what a feature is than how it is marketed. ;)
Because clearly it is my fault for thinking Master mode wasn't going to be a steaming pile of crap on release, and not Re-Logic's for introducing such a terrible gamemode. "Boo hoo let's call this guy hyped for the final update of Terraria an idiot because he doesn't like a terrible feature that should have never been introduced to the game" What I was trying to say is they had well over 5 months to >maybe< think that just raising stat changes wasn't going to please everyone. Not making you think I'm an idiot because you clearly don't have anything else to add. TVTropes has an article describing artificial difficulty, you can draw a lot of parallels with Expert and Master mode. Expert encouraged you heavily to use different optimized strats. Master forces you to always rely on these strats, otherwise you are going to die in less than 2 hits. Stat changes is the absolute laziest feature you can implement to a game to increase difficulty.

I am not the only player thinking Master is terrible, by the way, either. Scroll down and find even more comments criticizing the difficulty. I am utterly disappointed that a secret seed has more AI changes, aka genuine difficulty additions, than Master mode. And you may be thinking that the stats are raised to oblivion there, too, and you may be right, but it shows they are willing to spend more time coding a literal joke than an actual official gamemode.

EDIT: Oh yeah. And Cenx only revealed the effects of Master mode only to the most devoted of the Terraria community, judging by her posting in Discord than Twitter. So it has not been marketed to everyone.
 
How can we make you understand that just simply raising health and damage does not make a gamemode difficult?
Am i really reading this? The world of games is full of games that prove that yes, it increases the difficulty.
 
I could say (and have said) the exact same thing about Expert Mode. Which is my point: "fake difficulty" is an opinion.
Actually, you couldn't have, because Expert actually changes the AI of enemies in addition to giving them higher numbers, which is honestly far less lazy to do.
Am i really reading this? The world of games is full of games that prove that yes, it increases the difficulty.
But those games aren't always considered very good, and usually have at least something else to the difficulty other than stat changes. Look at Axiom Verge, which makes bosses have more attack speed in addition to making the player take more damage and deal less of it (made by one person, by the way), or Monolith, which has over 50 different difficulty settings, none of which give anything higher numbers and effect every single enemy in the game differently (Monolith was made by a FAR smaller studio than Terraria, by the way. I'm pretty sure D-13 has literally three people in it total.)
 
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But the focus in question is whether it increases the difficulty or not, enemies doing more damage are more dangerous, enemies resisting more attacks cost more of your time which also increases the danger they cause.
But that doesn't mean you will suddenly make mistakes you didn't before. That is my entire point. Difficulty is supposed to create more mistakes from the player, and increasing health is a flimsy way to do this that doesn't even test the people it was meant for. Raising numbers doesn't increase mistakes unless you're doing it to dungeon guardian levels of tankiness.
 
Raising numbers doesn't increase mistakes
I think they increase your chance of error, if a monster has more HP it costs more time to be defeated normally, and this increases the player's chance of error because the fight time is longer and therefore he must have more correct actions in the fight.
 
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