4PointDragon
Spazmatism
Yup.
Divine Torch
Summon Weapon
Crafted at an Anvil with Torch God's Favor enabled
15 Gold/Platinum Bars
100 Torches
Summons a Torch Ember
Torch embers take the appearance of a miniscule (probably ~5x5 sprite) flickering flame.
Torch Embers are helpless when isolated, but will immediately dart into and possess any nearby (non-possessed) torches. Possessed torches will fire fireballs at nearby enemies, just like the Torch God's own own attacks.Uniquely, Different torches have different damage values; some, such as Ichor and Cursed torches, can even inflict debuffs. This classifies them as a "Scaling" summon, or a summon which gets stronger during progression--albeit, you'd have to swap out the torches on all your arenas. Still likely best used as a Support summon for debuffs, though.
When the player exits range of a possessed torch and there is another in range, the Torch Ember will dart to it in an instant line of particle flames.
Compared to the torch god's attacks, Torch Embers will keep firing from a torch without depleting it.
Torch Embers can also possess torches held by the player.
Torch God's Sigil
Summon Accessory
Crafted at a Hardmode Anvil with Torch God's Favor enabled
15 Orichalcum/Mythril Bars
10 Hallowed Bars
100 Torches
A nearby torch has a chance to fire at an enemy when you hit said enemy with a whip (Does not have the same effects as Torch Embers, damage scales with whip damage--probably around 50% whip damage), deals summon damage -- A maximum of one torch can fire per hit.
Held torches work Underwater
Held torches have an increased glow
Held torches are possessed by a Torch Ember (so they fire at nearby enemies w/ torch ember effects, without needing a summoned torch ember to possess it.)
Divine Torch
Summon Weapon
Crafted at an Anvil with Torch God's Favor enabled
15 Gold/Platinum Bars
100 Torches
Summons a Torch Ember
Torch embers take the appearance of a miniscule (probably ~5x5 sprite) flickering flame.
Torch Embers are helpless when isolated, but will immediately dart into and possess any nearby (non-possessed) torches. Possessed torches will fire fireballs at nearby enemies, just like the Torch God's own own attacks.Uniquely, Different torches have different damage values; some, such as Ichor and Cursed torches, can even inflict debuffs. This classifies them as a "Scaling" summon, or a summon which gets stronger during progression--albeit, you'd have to swap out the torches on all your arenas. Still likely best used as a Support summon for debuffs, though.
When the player exits range of a possessed torch and there is another in range, the Torch Ember will dart to it in an instant line of particle flames.
Compared to the torch god's attacks, Torch Embers will keep firing from a torch without depleting it.
Torch Embers can also possess torches held by the player.
Torch God's Sigil
Summon Accessory
Crafted at a Hardmode Anvil with Torch God's Favor enabled
15 Orichalcum/Mythril Bars
10 Hallowed Bars
100 Torches
A nearby torch has a chance to fire at an enemy when you hit said enemy with a whip (Does not have the same effects as Torch Embers, damage scales with whip damage--probably around 50% whip damage), deals summon damage -- A maximum of one torch can fire per hit.
Held torches work Underwater
Held torches have an increased glow
Held torches are possessed by a Torch Ember (so they fire at nearby enemies w/ torch ember effects, without needing a summoned torch ember to possess it.)
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Stellar Mastodon 267
Terrarian
Very unique and not sure how plausible it is to code but this is sick! I would use this.
MoultonLava
Eater of Worlds
Really cool, and is fairly balanced! would use on a summoner playthrough
Heliodoros
The Destroyer
Needs to be balanced, but overally very creative idea! You have great imagination.
4PointDragon
Spazmatism
Figured i'd go through and jot down some extra ideas for a bit of feedback
1: Since this is a pre-boss summon, its base DPS with normal torches would obviously be on par to the finch staff or slime staff. its main advantage is its use of projectiles, with the downside of requiring an arena or some form of structure to even be useable.
2: There aren't a lot of torches that are unlockable in hardmode, and the big ones are the Ichor/Cursed fire torches. As such, i'm considering making it so hardmode buffs all Biome torches (including default, as that's the forest biome torch) a bit? not enough to make them immediately viable over other, legitimately better summons--just enough to make them not useless if they're not possessing something with a debuff.
3: Maybe make rarer gem torches do more damage? gems are already a hassle to get, dedicating diamonds to making a set-up slightly better sounds worthwhile but also kinda painful
4: If we want a couple more "unique torches" outside of just "Ichor and Cursed inflict Ichor and Cursed Flame respectively":
-Pink torch fireballs collide with blocks and bounce, even off of enemies, able to bounce 4 times and hit a max of 2 enemies
-Rainbow torches fire much faster and the fireballs are random colors, but it does not aim at all and instead fires randomly in all directions
1: Since this is a pre-boss summon, its base DPS with normal torches would obviously be on par to the finch staff or slime staff. its main advantage is its use of projectiles, with the downside of requiring an arena or some form of structure to even be useable.
2: There aren't a lot of torches that are unlockable in hardmode, and the big ones are the Ichor/Cursed fire torches. As such, i'm considering making it so hardmode buffs all Biome torches (including default, as that's the forest biome torch) a bit? not enough to make them immediately viable over other, legitimately better summons--just enough to make them not useless if they're not possessing something with a debuff.
3: Maybe make rarer gem torches do more damage? gems are already a hassle to get, dedicating diamonds to making a set-up slightly better sounds worthwhile but also kinda painful
4: If we want a couple more "unique torches" outside of just "Ichor and Cursed inflict Ichor and Cursed Flame respectively":
-Pink torch fireballs collide with blocks and bounce, even off of enemies, able to bounce 4 times and hit a max of 2 enemies
-Rainbow torches fire much faster and the fireballs are random colors, but it does not aim at all and instead fires randomly in all directions
_Noodle
Steampunker
Why not just make the minion scale/stack? The more times you use it the more damage the torches deal. Like you said, It already acts like a pseudo-scale minion, so why not just make it a reality.
I think unique torches would be a great idea, but I actually think all torches should be unique to some degree (especially if the damage/stats are supposed to scale). This might be a lot to implement, but in return it'd feel like you can customize your fighting style (perfect for a support-type minion).
Some ideas could be:
The stats from all torches and how they scale/increase is identical across them all. Unless otherwise specified, the torches act the same
Normal Torch: Nothing special going for them. Their direct/on-hit damage scales better than other torches
Gem Torches: These could all be themed around crit chance.
- Amethyst torches have the lowest buff to crit chance, but highest to damage among gem torches (second only to normal torches)
- Diamond is the opposite. Highest crit chance, but lowest damage buff
- All the others range in between. You can now pick whichever one you prefer the most
DOT Torches: These could all apply some variation of DOT, but vary in regards to speed (in comparison to normal torches)
- Ice Torch: Inflicts "Frostburn" debuff
- Jungle Torch: They inflict "Poisoned" and shoot slightly faster than normal torches
- Demon Torch: Inflicts "Hellfire" but shoot slightly slower
- Cursed Torch: Inflicts "Cursed Inferno" debuff. The slowest out of any of these
Ichor Torch: Inflicts "Ichor" debuff on hit
Piercing Torches: These would shoot projectiles that can pierce enemies
- Corrupt/Crimson Torches: They act identically. They can pierce through some enemies before getting destroyed
- Hallowed Torch: Can pierce infinitely but gets destroyed from hitting blocks
Mushroom Torch: The projectiles do a non-destructive explosion on hit (similar to grenades). Their direct damage scales slightly lower than other torches
Desert Torch: These torches shoots projectiles in bursts of three. Has the lowest on-hit damage scaling out of any torch
Coral Torch: Not sure about this one. Maybe projectiles could have higher knockback, or they could kickstart your health regen when killing something
Bone Torch: Ignores some armor. Along with other stats, this would also scale with more stacked minions
Ultrabright Torch: The projectiles become homing
Pink Torch: The projectiles bounce on walls similar to Water Bolt projectiles (like you had suggested)
Rainbow Torch: Instead of random shooting in random directions, maybe it could instead randomly copy another torch and shoot its projectile?
Aether Torch: These can instead be the ones that shoot faster and in random directions
4PointDragon
Spazmatism
I don't want to make the minion scale in strength the more you spawn, because we've already got a couple of those but not many that get buffed as time progresses.
I'm reluctant to include any form of effect to biome torches due to the ease of access (Torch God's Favor, which is mandatory to get these in the first place) outside of maybe damage/fire rate tweaks to match their biomes + the hardmode buff
Ultrabright having homing could be fun, though it could also screw with balance
I don't believe randomly copying a torch would do the rainbow torch any good. the main reason i proposed the random rapid-fire is due to the nature of a random bullet hell pattern: it becomes low-hazard at long range, but being at the center is a death sentence; this would turn it into a close-range high-damage torch. you can see this in any form of popular bullet hell game, like JSAB, Touhou, etc.
Gem torches are just.. weird, honestly. You could do linear scaling so damage matches with rarity (or inverse crit/damage scaling, as you proposed), you could give them each their own small thing, it's just.. hard to determine. there's no real defining traits for the gem weapons, after all. Sure, the staves gain pierce and autofire as the rarity increases, but that's about all we have to work with.
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Clockwork17
Retinazer
Minions can’t crit. You can’t have this be an exception because that invalidates the Morning Star and Kaleidoscope’s abilities to make them crit.
_Noodle
Steampunker
True. I never took account for Torch God's Favor and how it would change the torch type.
The reason why I suggested unique abilities/stats for every torch was to make all of them all viable. Everyone would otherwise just pick Ichor Torches for the debuffing. If every torch was unique it would at least give players options and customizability. But that clearly wouldn't work well; at least not in the way I had suggested.
What if all biome torches instead had identical stats, but they had the highest raw damage out of any torches? Then you'd get the option to pick those, or sacrifice damage for unique torches w. unique effects.
Something along the lines of:
Normal & Biome Torches: Best damage, but no unique properties (normal but balanced option)
Pink Torch: Lower damage, but projectiles bounce off walls (most fun)
Cursed Torch: Lower damage, but it inflicts "Cursed Inferno" debuff (best overall damage when considering DoT)
Ichor Torch: Lower damage, but it inflicts "Ichor" debuff (best for support)
Ultrabright Torch: They deal very low damage, but have homing (low damage, but you are guaranteed to hit at least)
Coral Torch (Apparently not a biome torch): Could have very low damage, but projectiles will pierce enemies (best against crowds)
Rainbow Torch: Shoots rapidly in random directions (not very reliable, but has potential to deal the most damage)
Gem Torches: Give them some type of inverse scaling (just not with crit, as Clockwork17 pointed out).
Pink Torch: Lower damage, but projectiles bounce off walls (most fun)
Cursed Torch: Lower damage, but it inflicts "Cursed Inferno" debuff (best overall damage when considering DoT)
Ichor Torch: Lower damage, but it inflicts "Ichor" debuff (best for support)
Ultrabright Torch: They deal very low damage, but have homing (low damage, but you are guaranteed to hit at least)
Coral Torch (Apparently not a biome torch): Could have very low damage, but projectiles will pierce enemies (best against crowds)
Rainbow Torch: Shoots rapidly in random directions (not very reliable, but has potential to deal the most damage)
Gem Torches: Give them some type of inverse scaling (just not with crit, as Clockwork17 pointed out).
They are very inconsistent, yeah. But if we went with normal damage scaling, there would be no reason to use any of them except diamond (this would also make biome torches useless in comparison).
I do think we should go with some variation of inverse scaling, just not with crit chance (I completely forgot minions don't normally crit).
Gem torches could maybe increase their attack speed, with diamond having the highest out of any of them?
Their damage just needs to scale very low in order to make up for the increased speed.
4PointDragon
Spazmatism
Still definitely a couple things i'll comment on, but this definitely seems a good bit more balanced than the first iteration.
Some things to note, though, is that some torches may be better at certain things than others.
-Pink torches would be best in enclosed arenas, much like water bolt
-Cursed/Ichor torches inflict two very powerful flask debuffs, allowing the summoner to pick a different flask for their whip (probably fire/venom, maybe midas)
-Ultrabright torches are very easy to get en masse (since they're dirt cheap) so it'd be a reasonable strategy to just spam them and get the equivalent of a chlorophyte bullet minishark
-...Make coral torches work underwater? that's always been their shtick, they can be placed underwater. Seeing as all these projectiles are fireballs, we could always make it so they can't normally be used underwater.
Assuming you're running a late-ish game loadout, you could run maybe 1-3 torch embers with some ichor and cursed torches lying around and still get a massive boost to your DPS--not just due to the debuff, but the ability to pick a different flask too.
-Perhaps make gem torches fire in bursts? starting with amethyst, it'd fire a single shot at a consistent rate. as you go up the value chain, however, it tacks on another fireball and a slightly longer cooldown; Diamond torches would fire a whopping 7 shot burst, but have a somewhat lengthy cooldown afterwards. this could be interpereted as rapid shots or as a tight shotgun blast, either goes
_Noodle
Steampunker
Depending on the situation, some torches will always be better than others. For instance, Cursed Torches won't be very effective against certain enemies due to their immunity. You'd need something else in that situation.
I think it's fine if the torches are strong, as long as every torch has its own time to shine.
I don't see the problem with that. Based on how you describe the summon item, it sounds like the embers are supposed to possess 1 torch and continue shooting with it (it won't extinguish like Torch God normally would). How many you place won't really matter if only 1 torch will be possessed.
But if they ARE supposed to extinguish, then sure, then it might be a bit of a problem that you could get them that easily.
Although, I had imagined that the Ultrabright Torch would have around the same attack speed as the biome torches. It wouldn't really be very fast firing like a minishark. It also won't deal a lot of damage.
At most, Ultrabright Torches would be like the underwhelming cousin of Chlorophyte Minishark.
Doesn't Torch God's attack already work in water, or am I misremembering? If they don't, then sure; that'd be a perfect ability.
Stellar Mastodon 267
Terrarian
Consider: biome bosses that require multiple kinds of torches would prevent the luck effect from ah inf only biome appropriate torches. Without this luck effect, crit chance and base damage is slightly reduced. I’m not sure how this might effect balancing, but I figured I should point it out.
4PointDragon
Spazmatism
Oh, i never realized i never actually properly defined how the embers work. whoops
gonna do that now just to establish hard ground rules
Each torch ember seeks out a nearby non-possessed torch and inhabits it, firing at nearby enemies with it until you yourself are out of range of the torch. if there is another torch nearby when its current one leaves range, it will teleport into that torch with a line of particles.
Torch embers will keep firing, as opposed to torch god's torches burning out after one shot.
Torch God's fireballs do ignore water, but this is more of a balancing thing (Boss when you fight him VS boss when you play him), as magic fire has never worked in water (Flower of fire, wand of sparking, imp staff, etc.) so this would fit mechanically
The only problematic torches here are Cursed and Ichor, since they're impacted by torch luck alongside all biome torches. Coral torches also part of the torch luck calculations, but let's be fair, there's already a problem if you're trying to get underwater damage while outside of the ocean.
minions also aren't impacted by crit, so they'd only get the slight base damage reduction. whips, on the other hand, bear the full brunt of the negated torch luck
Big Sammich
Duke Fishron
Hmm... to be honest, I think I would prefer this not being a Summon weapon. In my conception of it, which is a pretty different idea that I won't belabor you with, it would be classless.
Stellar Mastodon 267
Terrarian
I’d be cool with that! I love classless!
4PointDragon
Spazmatism
The issue with classless as a whole is that--as something any class can use--it has to be balanced around that fact. i believe the idea is best as a summoner for multiple reasons, those being:
1: summoner doesn't exactly have a lot of.. anything. the smallest weapon count, the least accessories, the least armor, you name it.
2: Torch God's entire method of attacking is indirect, which matches the main playstyle of summoner.
i also chose to design them like this so they wouldn't get out-scaled by progression. summoners lack any major accessories, so this isn't much of an issue right now, but the extra dmg from the sigil + debuff ability from the minions with the right torches give summoners a lot of tools they didn't originally have.
_Noodle
Steampunker
What if we made Divine Torch a sentry summon? I mean to be fair, it already kinda resembles one since it stands still while shooting at enemies.
I think making it a sentry would be the best of both worlds.
All classes can use the summon if they use OOA equipment (which some players already do), but it's still a summoner weapon that's at its strongest when used by them.
Dapling
Queen Bee
I’d argue the exact opposite. Any class can use summon bonuses (especially minions) and classless weapons cannot benefit from bonuses of any kind (even all-class bonuses like Avenger Emblem don’t work on weapons without a damage type).
Classless weapons will always be weaker than classed weapons even if said class weapons don’t belong to the damage type you’re building around. The only exceptions are stuff like Dynamite which does so much damage that it doesn’t need bonuses at all.
4PointDragon
Spazmatism
this i'm opposed to by nature of defeating the core idea. The point of it is to provide valuable support in places you've already prepared beforehand; they can still maneuver throughout the arena so long as there's torches to attack with. making it a sentry basically shafts the entire idea by actively pinning it to one place and enabling you to "Set up" in a manner of seconds, not to mention potentially scrapping any of the scaling mechanics.
does terraria need more sentries? if you count the OOA stuff as just the same four sentries across the board, yes. hell, more pre-hardmode sentries would be nice too. but this doesn't mesh well at all with what i'm going for.
There are no classless weapons.
no, i'm not making a joke or anything--if it does classless damage, it is either an accessory, a trap, a mount, primarily a tool, or a full armor set bonus.
Dynamite exists, yes, but it's impractical as a weapon due to its long fuse time and block destruction. it can be used as a weapon for speed kills, and it is viable in those cases, but it's not a route anyone looking to play the game any semblance of "normally" would take. same applies to bombs.
I can understand the point of the sigil being classless, but that would still mean shafting the concept of having any dedicated weapon to him/her/whatever-blubber-flubbing-pronoun-you'd-assign-to-a-disembodied-god-of-braziers-and-matchsticks entirely.
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