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PC DST Equipment might need a huge buff...

whoneedsnamestbh

Eater of Worlds
Anyways, I just watched this video:

I do share his concern that Abigail is so strong that it renders all other pre-Hardmode summons useless. Leinfors, have you done tests to see if a pre-Hardmode, "maxed out" Abigail outperforms things like pre-Hardmode, "maxxed out" Vampire Frog Staff, Hornet Staff, and Imp Staff (By "maxxed out," I mean using all the available summoner gear/slots that you can get pre-Hardmode)? It'd be weird for something that you can easily get before fighting any boss could outperform items you aren't supposed to get until well into the game.

And yes, the uploader acknowledged that this video was made right before Abigail was nerfed in 1.4.3.1, but he doesn't think that Abigail has been nerfed hard enough.
Not gonna lie, Svings doesn’t know what he’s talking about here. That sounds harsh, but hear me out.

Since her release, Bame’s server has tried Abigail in pretty much every situation up until and including Plantera… and no, she doesn’t “outclass every other minion”. In the scope of prehardmode bosses, she does decently at the same bosses Vampire Frog does well at, so she acts like a weaker but more readily available Vampire Frog. An Obsidian Armor build on Skeletron with her for example got around a minute and a half, while summon builds with imps and frogs got around 1:10. Her biggest role prehardmode is a stepping stone to Flinx and an easy option for small clusters.

In Hardmode, Abigail does well at Dreadnautilus and Queen Slime, making her a stepping stone to Summoner’s next good minions that Spider doesn’t really act as considering they’re ground limited, but she’s not stronger than either. She got around the same as Optic Staff against the Destroyer, and seemed to struggle to catch up with Prime (though did well on Twins). She also did decently on Plantera, but noticeably not any better than Sanguine would do.

I think her “outclassing every other minion” is a hasty conclusion on Svings’ part that assumes she does everything just because of the way she scales without realising that at no point is her strength *too* high (especially now that she can’t cheese tight clusters) and is really more of a fix to Summoner’s gaping progression gaps.
 

Flubman

Terrarian
That's overrating it especially after the hotfix which made it far weaker against Brain of Confusion. TRAE Discord has done DPS tests and Abigail is pretty much never the number 1 choice for any fight, only exception being Queen Slime as there is a shocking lack of alternatives (meaning: none) until Blade/Sanguine at the time.

Also, to make it simple, Svings is not considered a reliable source for item discussion when it comes to viability.
Fair enough. My mistake.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
Anyways, I just watched this video:

I do share his concern that Abigail is so strong that it renders all other pre-Hardmode summons useless. Leinfors, have you done tests to see if a pre-Hardmode, "maxed out" Abigail outperforms things like pre-Hardmode, "maxxed out" Vampire Frog Staff, Hornet Staff, and Imp Staff (By "maxxed out," I mean using all the available summoner gear/slots that you can get pre-Hardmode)? It'd be weird for something that you can easily get before fighting any boss could outperform items you aren't supposed to get until well into the game.

And yes, the uploader acknowledged that this video was made right before Abigail was nerfed in 1.4.3.1, but he doesn't think that Abigail has been nerfed hard enough.

The uploader touches on a lot of Abigail's strengths, but doesn't precisely show any specific comparison cases where she is too powerful.

In my initial testing, and a quick "retest" right now, I'm showing both "max" Imps and Hornets out DPS-ing a "maxed" Abigail with pre-HM gear (the maximum minion count for which is 6 total, unless I'm critically in error). Imps are a little less reliable due to piercing frame timing but also have a higher potential output and some multi-target potential. Abigail also has multi-target potential, but it's a different type compared to Imp (which is neither a pro or con, simply stating facts). Imps and Hornets also inflict DoTs, minimal though they may be, it can't be discounted entirely.

Further, Abigail's viability almost demands maximum minions at all time, which is a point against Obsidian, and needs post-Dungeon bewitching station and Summoning Potion on tap. Imps and Hornets scale more linearly, while Abigail's is a slow-start that climbs rapidly. If you were to compare, say, 3 or 4 minion count Imp or Hornets against a 3-4 minion Abigail, the difference is more pronounced. This means Abigail's "range" of viable scenarios is quite limited, at times.

Vampire Frog is a weird situation, and I can say that were I to revisit this, it would need some adjustments. Its piercing frames max out very quickly, resulting in a very rapid spike in DPS (even 1-2 frogs) but rapidly tapering off against all but the most agile enemies. Abigail may outperform them at high minion count, but then, they out perform her at low minion count, and Vampire Frogs are also available "very early" if RNG is in your favor. Actually gives both of them a nice niche, really.

Now, the one thing that I saw there which raised a tad bit of concern with me is Abigail/Firecracker. This is a purely Hardmode combination, so it's a different balance environment entirely, and ALSO much more easily adjusted. If need be, I can reduce Abigail's HM damage scaling without touching any of her stats, and it will have no bearing on the pre-HM equivalent. So if there is concern that Abigail + Firecracker is too powerful (or that Abigail in HM in general is too strong), please do let me know and I can adjust this easily and without major consequences.

I'm open to concerns about her power, but I think I would need more precise examples than what that video offered . . . it was fairly vague, and just talked about her scaling, but scaling alone does not make something powerful (see Desert Tiger).
 

Flubman

Terrarian
The uploader touches on a lot of Abigail's strengths, but doesn't precisely show any specific comparison cases where she is too powerful.

In my initial testing, and a quick "retest" right now, I'm showing both "max" Imps and Hornets out DPS-ing a "maxed" Abigail with pre-HM gear (the maximum minion count for which is 6 total, unless I'm critically in error). Imps are a little less reliable due to piercing frame timing but also have a higher potential output and some multi-target potential. Abigail also has multi-target potential, but it's a different type compared to Imp (which is neither a pro or con, simply stating facts).

Imps and Hornets also inflict DoTs, minimal though they may be, it can't be discounted entirely.

Vampire Frog is a weird situation, and I can say that were I to revisit this, it would need some adjustments. Its piercing frames max out very quickly, resulting in a very rapid spike in DPS (even 1-2 frogs) but rapidly tapering off against all but the most agile enemies. Abigail may outperform them at high minion count, but then, they out perform her at low minion count, and Vampire Frogs are also available "very early" if RNG is in your favor.

Now, the one thing that I saw there which raised a tad bit of concern with me is Abigail/Firecracker. This is a purely Hardmode combination, so it's a different balance environment entirely, and ALSO much more easily adjusted. If need be, I can reduce Abigail's HM damage scaling without touching any of her stats, and it will have no bearing on the pre-HM equivalent. So if there is concern that Abigail + Firecracker is too powerful (or that Abigail in HM in general is too strong), please do let me know and I can adjust this easily and without major consequences.

I'm open to concerns about her power, but I think I would need more precise examples than what that video offered . . . it was fairly vague, and just talked about her scaling, but scaling alone does not make something powerful (see Desert Tiger).
Frankly, I think Firecracker could use a nerf in general. Not a huge one, but enough to make Firecracker/Stardust Dragon definitively less powerful than Kaleidoscope/Terraprisma, especially considering how hard Terraprisma is to get.

Also, I know that this is probably way out of the scope of what you can do right now, but I think Soaring Insignia could use some kind of nerf. As is, it's absurdly powerful when paired with high-tier wings.
 

Mathbrush1

Terrarian
I wanted to test how good the Houndius Shootius is. Wearing Tier 3 Old One's Army armor (red riding), with papyrus scarab and necromantic scroll and huntress's buckler.

With this setup, I fought against the Eye of Cthulhu using only sentries (5 at a time). I expected end game gear to annihilate it with Houndius Shootius, but it still took a while. However, I did find it was better than its competitors. Here are the times:

Houndius Shootius: 46 seconds
Ballista Rod: 90 seconds
Flameburst Rod: 150 seconds.

This makes Houndius Shootius the clear winner. It's not OP (this was with maxed endgame gear and 5x sentries and still did worse than a pre-boss character with a minigun), but it's better than every other sentry available, which seems fitting.

(As for Deerclops despawning, this update was geared towards general players and not experts, so it might make sense to have a boss that can be slowly whittled down for good loot. At least in normal mode, if nothing else).
 

Shyguymask

Terrarian
Frankly, I think Firecracker could use a nerf in general. Not a huge one, but enough to make Firecracker/Stardust Dragon definitively less powerful than Kaleidoscope/Terraprisma, especially considering how hard Terraprisma is to get.

Also, I know that this is probably way out of the scope of what you can do right now, but I think Soaring Insignia could use some kind of nerf. As is, it's absurdly powerful when paired with high-tier wings.
KaleiPrisma already deals more damage than DragonCracker though.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
I had this half-way typed up before that Abigail video got me all nervous, but I'll get this up now.

This is my tentative list of proposed changes.

PLEASE NOTE: THIS LIST IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE, AND ALL FINAL DECISIONS ARE MADE BY RELOGIC (read: my bosses).

This list is being posted for additional opinions and feedback on the changes. I'm happy to take input under consideration, but I'm not going to be guaranteed to make requested changes, especially if we have internal reasons/justifications for not making changes.

I expect these changes will arrive tomorrow, so there should be a bit of time for discussion and first impressions.

Abigail:
- Increase Base Speed by 50% (3->4.5)
- Decrease Speed Growth from 1.5 to 1.35 (ends at exactly the same value at 11-minion)
- Decrease Smoothing (read: Buff Acceleration) from 20 to 15
- Decrease Smoothing Growth from 2 to 1.5 (maxes out at the same minion count)
- (Added in 1.4.3.1) Increase flower growth rate by 33%
- (Added in 1.4.3.1) Put a cap on how many enemies she can hit at once, and cap increases with minion count

Summary:
The changes to speed and "acceleration" here are each two-faceted. Both of them buff her BASE performance, and both of them nerf her growth-per-minion. Speed is literally her maximum movement speed, and smoothing has to do with the rate she builds speed.

At EVERY minion-level of Abigail (all the way up to 11 minions), she will be better or equal to the current stats. With the speed, it finally breaks even with the original stats at exactly 11 minions. With the acceleration, both versions of Abigail reach a "maxed" cap on this stat at the exact same minion count. You will only ever see an improvement with this change, or at worst, no change at all. The changes will be most pronounced at lower levels, with 1-minion count gaining the most benefit of all.

The changes to spawn rate and minion cap are already in the game. Open to feedback on those as well. Cap is not likely to be "removed", but the numbers can be adjusted.


Lucy:
- UT reduced from 20 to 17
- Scale increased from 1 to 1.2 (makes her 20% bigger)
- Boost Axe power from 25 to 30

A simple speed increase (which synergizes with her Axe power increase, a nice happy accident), and an increase to her physical size when being swung. When taking her critical rate into consideration, this actually gives her a rather generous DPS. If you do not include Beekeeper's Bees (hard to quantify on average), this should give her the highest DPS potential of any pre-HM sword aside from Night's Edge (which should be the best). With the slightly improved range, I feel this is a fair compromise, and pushing much further risks giving her too much power in contrast to other peers like Fiery Greatsword and Muramasa.


Weather Pain:
- Increase duration by 50% (non-damaging, only how long it lasts)
- Increase pierce count from 10->12 (can hit up to 20% more times, assuming it's duration does not end first)
- Increase speed from "7" to "8"

Trying to take feedback into account here, in a way that doesn't make this thing do any more DPS than it already does. This just makes it last longer, hit more times, and be a little faster. It WILL increase it's mana efficiency slightly due to the increase number of hits per cast, but other than that, it just keeps Weather Pain around longer and wasting a little less time chasing.


Pew-Matic Horn:
- Increasing range (exact amount undetermined, still experimenting a bit
- Slight increase to "accuracy randomness" to account for increased range, as the boosted speed kinda reduced it
- Reduce UT from 24 to 15

As mentioned earlier, my initial final release values for Pew-Matic were incorrect somehow, and were "worse" than my original planned values by a decent margin. Even those values had been conservative at the time, knowing that I could make minor buffs as needed, but with the incorrect values, it needed quite a bit more. For the time being, I'm taking the "faster" approach, and these numbers should result in much better performance, and a little bit better range. I could just as easily increase the damage, or a combination of both, to get the same end result, so the final product here can take many forms.


Houndius:
- Increase projectile speed from 8.5 to 12.5 (more accurate, no other change)

Little needs to be said here, this just improves the reliability of the weapon. No amount of speed will make it perfectly accurate, unless it were bullet fast, and that isn't fitting with the original design of the item.


Bat Bat:
I have two variations on this, both of which I've decided I'm comfortable with, and I can go with either.

Both Variants:
- Hits with Bat Bat will always steal exactly 1 HP, cannot hit multiple targets for more than 1
- Increase Scale from 1 to 1.15 (makes it a bit bigger, to fit with a slower, harder hitting weapon)

Variant 1:
- Damage increased from 18 to 31
- UT increased from 30 to 45

Variant 2:
- Damage increased from 18 to 26
- UT increased from 30 to 40

Both variants slightly increase the Bat Bat's DPS, and both of them increase the maximum amount of healing that can obtained per minute. Variant 1 has slightly higher DPS, but Variant 2 has higher potential healing per minute because it is faster. As an additional note, both of these variants require more "consistent" hitting to maximize their healing potential, but the healing is delivered more reliably and is less confusing.


Ham Bat:
- Kills with Ham Bat will give a roughly identical buff to Life Drain, giving a boost to healing for a short duration.
- Increase damage from 50 to 60
- Increase scale from 1 to 1.2

With the combination of the slightly boosted size, the Well Fed double-boost on Ham Bat's damage, and the healing system, this is really pushing the extent of what I think can be asked of a pre-Mech sword. It's going to be doing some of the best sword-DPS pre-Mech aside from some of potential damage of some of the projectile swords with enough piercing. I will reiterate that Baghnakhs do not factor into this discussion at all. I'm honestly a bit concerned that this will be too powerful. I looked at a 65 damage variant and the Well Fed DPS was rather high (higher than I was comfortable with in contrast to post-Mech swords). Though Melee itself suffers in contrast to non-Melee weapons, I have to maintain some level of consistency within the weapon class.


The Frog Problem:
(Due to the increased frequency of Frogs in post 1.4 gameplay, which we did not account for when Sauteed was initially added, and I built Froggle off of Sauteed)
- Sauteed Frog Legs - Changing from 10 Minutes of Tier 2 Well Fed to 10 Minutes of Tier 1 Well Fed
- Froggle Bunwich - Changing from 8 Minutes of Tier 3 Well Fed to 8 Minutes of Tier 2 Well Fed

There are a lot of potential solutions here, but based on both Sauteed and Froggle being the subject of feedback, I think a symmetrical downgrade was the cleaner option. Alternative solutions include a "longer" Tier 1 Froggle (probably 25 minutes to fit with Fruit Juice systems), but we aren't likely to see dramatic recipe changes here, so I think this is probably what we are going to go with.


Tentacle Spike:
- Coming Soon
 

Omega Derpling

Plantera
Due to the increased frequency of Frogs in post 1.4 gameplay, which we did not account for when Sauteed was initially added, and I built Froggle off of Sauteed
This probably isn’t relevant at all but as someone who has been farming and selling frogs for quite a long time now, frog spawns actually weren’t increased in 1.4. It just wasn’t really an issue until you could make food from them so no one really talked about how common they were before then.
 
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Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
This probably isn’t relevant at all but as someone who has been farming and selling frogs for quite a long time now, frog spawns actually weren’t increased in 1.4. It just wasn’t really an issue until you could make food from them so no one really talked about how common they were before them.

I'm aware, but there has been a meta shift (which was helpfully pointed out to me in this thread) wherein typical players have much more convenient access to frogs, and more motivation to access them. Perhaps Sauteed alone was not a problem, but I see now how Froggle was, in tandem with the addition of Pylons and an increased emphasis on Jungle Towns.
 

J Bame

Terrarian
It's going to be doing some of the best sword-DPS pre-Mech aside from some of potential damage of some of the projectile swords with enough piercing. I will reiterate that Baghnakhs do not factor into this discussion at all. I'm honestly a bit concerned that this will be too powerful.
If I understood the Well Fed scaling correctly, this will end up with 225 DPS with T3 Well Fed.

The Shadowflame Knife has a base DPS of 190 (15 more from Shadowflame, but since that doesn't scale with gear let's just ignore it), and is generally considered to be balanced weapon with no polarizing strengths or weaknesses, so let's balance around that.

Shadowflame Knife has way bigger range and more reliable CC, something that 2.5 hp/s can't compensate for. However Ham Bat is affected by Melee Speed, so its DPS potential is actually higher. With just +40% melee speed (+20% from Tipsy and Exquisitely stuffed, and let's just say +20% from average armor and accessories) we are looking at 315 DPS vs 190, about 65% stronger.

Ham Bat healing doesn't suddenly eliminate the risk of True Melee, it just ends up making you take less damage in the end. So the comparison to Shadowflame Knife comes down to whether you want DPS (Ham Bat) or range and safety (knife)... and personally I think +65% is enough of a DPS difference.

Would it be the best Broadsword in the tier barring Fetid + Titanium Barrier shenanigans? Most likely... but are any of those broadswords we are comparing it to above C tier in quality? I don't think so. It may look like powercreep, but Swords aren't the only melee weapons in the game. Hardmode swords are bad weapons, so does that mean that every melee weapon should be nerfed to the level of the current Swords, or rather that all Swords need a buff to be comparable to ranged melee options? Pretty sure we can all agree on the latter.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
Hardmode swords are bad weapons, so does that mean that every melee weapon should be nerfed to the level of the current Swords, or rather that all Swords need a buff to be comparable to ranged melee options? Pretty sure we can all agree on the latter.

Generally speaking, I agree with this sentiment, but until such time as I can (or even if I can) make such a change, I don't want to start adding more swords that tremendously invalidate the few semi-viable swords already present. I feel as if I'm already doing so with this change, but perhaps not to such a critical degree that it would be a bad move. Still makes me feel quite unpleasant though.
 

J Bame

Terrarian
Generally speaking, I agree with this sentiment, but until such time as I can (or even if I can) make such a change, I don't want to start adding more swords that tremendously invalidate the few semi-viable swords already present. I feel as if I'm already doing so with this change, but perhaps not to such a critical degree that it would be a bad move. Still makes me feel quite unpleasant though.
so, when can we expect balance thread 2
 

TOMKA

Terrarian
I had this half-way typed up before that Abigail video got me all nervous, but I'll get this up now.

This is my tentative list of proposed changes.

PLEASE NOTE: THIS LIST IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE, AND ALL FINAL DECISIONS ARE MADE BY RELOGIC (read: my bosses).

This list is being posted for additional opinions and feedback on the changes. I'm happy to take input under consideration, but I'm not going to be guaranteed to make requested changes, especially if we have internal reasons/justifications for not making changes.

I expect these changes will arrive tomorrow, so there should be a bit of time for discussion and first impressions.

Abigail:
- Increase Base Speed by 50% (3->4.5)
- Decrease Speed Growth from 1.5 to 1.35 (ends at exactly the same value at 11-minion)
- Decrease Smoothing (read: Buff Acceleration) from 20 to 15
- Decrease Smoothing Growth from 2 to 1.5 (maxes out at the same minion count)
- (Added in 1.4.3.1) Increase flower growth rate by 33%
- (Added in 1.4.3.1) Put a cap on how many enemies she can hit at once, and cap increases with minion count

Summary:
The changes to speed and "acceleration" here are each two-faceted. Both of them buff her BASE performance, and both of them nerf her growth-per-minion. Speed is literally her maximum movement speed, and smoothing has to do with the rate she builds speed.

At EVERY minion-level of Abigail (all the way up to 11 minions), she will be better or equal to the current stats. With the speed, it finally breaks even with the original stats at exactly 11 minions. With the acceleration, both versions of Abigail reach a "maxed" cap on this stat at the exact same minion count. You will only ever see an improvement with this change, or at worst, no change at all. The changes will be most pronounced at lower levels, with 1-minion count gaining the most benefit of all.

The changes to spawn rate and minion cap are already in the game. Open to feedback on those as well. Cap is not likely to be "removed", but the numbers can be adjusted.


Lucy:
- UT reduced from 20 to 17
- Scale increased from 1 to 1.2 (makes her 20% bigger)
- Boost Axe power from 25 to 30

A simple speed increase (which synergizes with her Axe power increase, a nice happy accident), and an increase to her physical size when being swung. When taking her critical rate into consideration, this actually gives her a rather generous DPS. If you do not include Beekeeper's Bees (hard to quantify on average), this should give her the highest DPS potential of any pre-HM sword aside from Night's Edge (which should be the best). With the slightly improved range, I feel this is a fair compromise, and pushing much further risks giving her too much power in contrast to other peers like Fiery Greatsword and Muramasa.


Weather Pain:
- Increase duration by 50% (non-damaging, only how long it lasts)
- Increase pierce count from 10->12 (can hit up to 20% more times, assuming it's duration does not end first)
- Increase speed from "7" to "8"

Trying to take feedback into account here, in a way that doesn't make this thing do any more DPS than it already does. This just makes it last longer, hit more times, and be a little faster. It WILL increase it's mana efficiency slightly due to the increase number of hits per cast, but other than that, it just keeps Weather Pain around longer and wasting a little less time chasing.


Pew-Matic Horn:
- Increasing range (exact amount undetermined, still experimenting a bit
- Slight increase to "accuracy randomness" to account for increased range, as the boosted speed kinda reduced it
- Reduce UT from 24 to 15

As mentioned earlier, my initial final release values for Pew-Matic were incorrect somehow, and were "worse" than my original planned values by a decent margin. Even those values had been conservative at the time, knowing that I could make minor buffs as needed, but with the incorrect values, it needed quite a bit more. For the time being, I'm taking the "faster" approach, and these numbers should result in much better performance, and a little bit better range. I could just as easily increase the damage, or a combination of both, to get the same end result, so the final product here can take many forms.


Houndius:
- Increase projectile speed from 8.5 to 12.5 (more accurate, no other change)

Little needs to be said here, this just improves the reliability of the weapon. No amount of speed will make it perfectly accurate, unless it were bullet fast, and that isn't fitting with the original design of the item.


Bat Bat:
I have two variations on this, both of which I've decided I'm comfortable with, and I can go with either.

Both Variants:
- Hits with Bat Bat will always steal exactly 1 HP, cannot hit multiple targets for more than 1
- Increase Scale from 1 to 1.15 (makes it a bit bigger, to fit with a slower, harder hitting weapon)

Variant 1:
- Damage increased from 18 to 31
- UT increased from 30 to 45

Variant 2:
- Damage increased from 18 to 26
- UT increased from 30 to 40

Both variants slightly increase the Bat Bat's DPS, and both of them increase the maximum amount of healing that can obtained per minute. Variant 1 has slightly higher DPS, but Variant 2 has higher potential healing per minute because it is faster. As an additional note, both of these variants require more "consistent" hitting to maximize their healing potential, but the healing is delivered more reliably and is less confusing.


Ham Bat:
- Kills with Ham Bat will give a roughly identical buff to Life Drain, giving a boost to healing for a short duration.
- Increase damage from 50 to 60
- Increase scale from 1 to 1.2

With the combination of the slightly boosted size, the Well Fed double-boost on Ham Bat's damage, and the healing system, this is really pushing the extent of what I think can be asked of a pre-Mech sword. It's going to be doing some of the best sword-DPS pre-Mech aside from some of potential damage of some of the projectile swords with enough piercing. I will reiterate that Baghnakhs do not factor into this discussion at all. I'm honestly a bit concerned that this will be too powerful. I looked at a 65 damage variant and the Well Fed DPS was rather high (higher than I was comfortable with in contrast to post-Mech swords). Though Melee itself suffers in contrast to non-Melee weapons, I have to maintain some level of consistency within the weapon class.


The Frog Problem:
(Due to the increased frequency of Frogs in post 1.4 gameplay, which we did not account for when Sauteed was initially added, and I built Froggle off of Sauteed)
- Sauteed Frog Legs - Changing from 10 Minutes of Tier 2 Well Fed to 10 Minutes of Tier 1 Well Fed
- Froggle Bunwich - Changing from 8 Minutes of Tier 3 Well Fed to 8 Minutes of Tier 2 Well Fed

There are a lot of potential solutions here, but based on both Sauteed and Froggle being the subject of feedback, I think a symmetrical downgrade was the cleaner option. Alternative solutions include a "longer" Tier 1 Froggle (probably 25 minutes to fit with Fruit Juice systems), but we aren't likely to see dramatic recipe changes here, so I think this is probably what we are going to go with.


Tentacle Spike:
- Coming Soon
But are you going to do anything with Chester and Deerclops? Speaking of the new changes, I think I agree with all of them. I'd prefer the second variant of Bat Bat since I think that its healing ability is more important than its damage.
 

CellarDoor96

Terrarian
From a quick look over those proposed changes, they seem mostly good, except I also feel that buffing Ham Bat to 60 base damage on top of the regen buff may make it a bit too good. Maybe a more middle ground figure like 54-55 would be better? Or it may not need a damage buff at all if we're already giving it regen and keeping the food buff damage scaling.
 

Flubman

Terrarian
I had this half-way typed up before that Abigail video got me all nervous, but I'll get this up now.

This is my tentative list of proposed changes.

PLEASE NOTE: THIS LIST IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE, AND ALL FINAL DECISIONS ARE MADE BY RELOGIC (read: my bosses).

This list is being posted for additional opinions and feedback on the changes. I'm happy to take input under consideration, but I'm not going to be guaranteed to make requested changes, especially if we have internal reasons/justifications for not making changes.

I expect these changes will arrive tomorrow, so there should be a bit of time for discussion and first impressions.

Abigail:
- Increase Base Speed by 50% (3->4.5)
- Decrease Speed Growth from 1.5 to 1.35 (ends at exactly the same value at 11-minion)
- Decrease Smoothing (read: Buff Acceleration) from 20 to 15
- Decrease Smoothing Growth from 2 to 1.5 (maxes out at the same minion count)
- (Added in 1.4.3.1) Increase flower growth rate by 33%
- (Added in 1.4.3.1) Put a cap on how many enemies she can hit at once, and cap increases with minion count

Summary:
The changes to speed and "acceleration" here are each two-faceted. Both of them buff her BASE performance, and both of them nerf her growth-per-minion. Speed is literally her maximum movement speed, and smoothing has to do with the rate she builds speed.

At EVERY minion-level of Abigail (all the way up to 11 minions), she will be better or equal to the current stats. With the speed, it finally breaks even with the original stats at exactly 11 minions. With the acceleration, both versions of Abigail reach a "maxed" cap on this stat at the exact same minion count. You will only ever see an improvement with this change, or at worst, no change at all. The changes will be most pronounced at lower levels, with 1-minion count gaining the most benefit of all.

The changes to spawn rate and minion cap are already in the game. Open to feedback on those as well. Cap is not likely to be "removed", but the numbers can be adjusted.


Lucy:
- UT reduced from 20 to 17
- Scale increased from 1 to 1.2 (makes her 20% bigger)
- Boost Axe power from 25 to 30

A simple speed increase (which synergizes with her Axe power increase, a nice happy accident), and an increase to her physical size when being swung. When taking her critical rate into consideration, this actually gives her a rather generous DPS. If you do not include Beekeeper's Bees (hard to quantify on average), this should give her the highest DPS potential of any pre-HM sword aside from Night's Edge (which should be the best). With the slightly improved range, I feel this is a fair compromise, and pushing much further risks giving her too much power in contrast to other peers like Fiery Greatsword and Muramasa.


Weather Pain:
- Increase duration by 50% (non-damaging, only how long it lasts)
- Increase pierce count from 10->12 (can hit up to 20% more times, assuming it's duration does not end first)
- Increase speed from "7" to "8"

Trying to take feedback into account here, in a way that doesn't make this thing do any more DPS than it already does. This just makes it last longer, hit more times, and be a little faster. It WILL increase it's mana efficiency slightly due to the increase number of hits per cast, but other than that, it just keeps Weather Pain around longer and wasting a little less time chasing.


Pew-Matic Horn:
- Increasing range (exact amount undetermined, still experimenting a bit
- Slight increase to "accuracy randomness" to account for increased range, as the boosted speed kinda reduced it
- Reduce UT from 24 to 15

As mentioned earlier, my initial final release values for Pew-Matic were incorrect somehow, and were "worse" than my original planned values by a decent margin. Even those values had been conservative at the time, knowing that I could make minor buffs as needed, but with the incorrect values, it needed quite a bit more. For the time being, I'm taking the "faster" approach, and these numbers should result in much better performance, and a little bit better range. I could just as easily increase the damage, or a combination of both, to get the same end result, so the final product here can take many forms.


Houndius:
- Increase projectile speed from 8.5 to 12.5 (more accurate, no other change)

Little needs to be said here, this just improves the reliability of the weapon. No amount of speed will make it perfectly accurate, unless it were bullet fast, and that isn't fitting with the original design of the item.


Bat Bat:
I have two variations on this, both of which I've decided I'm comfortable with, and I can go with either.

Both Variants:
- Hits with Bat Bat will always steal exactly 1 HP, cannot hit multiple targets for more than 1
- Increase Scale from 1 to 1.15 (makes it a bit bigger, to fit with a slower, harder hitting weapon)

Variant 1:
- Damage increased from 18 to 31
- UT increased from 30 to 45

Variant 2:
- Damage increased from 18 to 26
- UT increased from 30 to 40

Both variants slightly increase the Bat Bat's DPS, and both of them increase the maximum amount of healing that can obtained per minute. Variant 1 has slightly higher DPS, but Variant 2 has higher potential healing per minute because it is faster. As an additional note, both of these variants require more "consistent" hitting to maximize their healing potential, but the healing is delivered more reliably and is less confusing.


Ham Bat:
- Kills with Ham Bat will give a roughly identical buff to Life Drain, giving a boost to healing for a short duration.
- Increase damage from 50 to 60
- Increase scale from 1 to 1.2

With the combination of the slightly boosted size, the Well Fed double-boost on Ham Bat's damage, and the healing system, this is really pushing the extent of what I think can be asked of a pre-Mech sword. It's going to be doing some of the best sword-DPS pre-Mech aside from some of potential damage of some of the projectile swords with enough piercing. I will reiterate that Baghnakhs do not factor into this discussion at all. I'm honestly a bit concerned that this will be too powerful. I looked at a 65 damage variant and the Well Fed DPS was rather high (higher than I was comfortable with in contrast to post-Mech swords). Though Melee itself suffers in contrast to non-Melee weapons, I have to maintain some level of consistency within the weapon class.


The Frog Problem:
(Due to the increased frequency of Frogs in post 1.4 gameplay, which we did not account for when Sauteed was initially added, and I built Froggle off of Sauteed)
- Sauteed Frog Legs - Changing from 10 Minutes of Tier 2 Well Fed to 10 Minutes of Tier 1 Well Fed
- Froggle Bunwich - Changing from 8 Minutes of Tier 3 Well Fed to 8 Minutes of Tier 2 Well Fed

There are a lot of potential solutions here, but based on both Sauteed and Froggle being the subject of feedback, I think a symmetrical downgrade was the cleaner option. Alternative solutions include a "longer" Tier 1 Froggle (probably 25 minutes to fit with Fruit Juice systems), but we aren't likely to see dramatic recipe changes here, so I think this is probably what we are going to go with.


Tentacle Spike:
- Coming Soon
Abigail: I think you might be making starter Abigail too fast. To the point where she then might actually outclass all other "maxed out," pre-Hardmode summon weapons, even if her full potential would remain the same. I'd imagine easily getting Abigail day one and her outclassing every other summon weapon pre-Hardmode would make summoner playthroughs a lot more boring, so I'd recommend doing some more tests that compare your Abigail rework to the Vampire Frog Staff, Hornet Staff, and Imp Staff before adding those changes in a patch.

Lucy: These changes sound good. My only concern is that I don't want her to outclass the late-Hardmode axes in terms of harvesting speed.

Weather Pain: Could you please clarify what you meant by "(non-damaging, only how long it lasts)"? I'm all for making the projectile faster, though.

Pew-matic Horn: These changes sound good. I'd also very slightly increase the damage to 20-21, but if you judge that to be too much in conjunction with the other changes, I say go with the rapid-fire approach and not the slow-hitter one.

Houndius: Thank you. This is exactly what I asked for.

Bat Bat: It still sounds like the weapon will be underpowered with any of the proposals you've suggested. I'd say go for:
- Hits with Bat Bat will always steal exactly 1 HP, cannot hit multiple targets for more than 1
- Increase Scale from 1 to 1.15 (makes it a bit bigger, to fit with a slower, harder hitting weapon)
But have the damage be 31 and the UT be 40.

Ham Bat: This sounds like a good idea. I doubt the changes will make the weapon very powerful, but at least it sounds like it'll be useful if you manage to get lucky and get one early into Hardmode.

Frogs: I think your solution to "The Frog Problem" is adequate. I'd recommend also decreasing Froggle's duration to 5-6 minutes, but I'm not sure if that will go through.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
But are you going to do anything with Chester and Deerclops? Speaking of the new changes, I think I agree with all of them. I'd prefer the second variant of Bat Bat since I think that its ability is more important than its damage.

I'm not really prepared to be looking into major overhauls to Deerclops at this time, and the Chester decision was (to my recollection) intentional and not something I can simply change so easily.

From a quick look over those proposed changes, they seem mostly good, except I also feel that buffing Ham Bat to 60 base damage on top of the regen buff may make it a bit too good. Maybe a more middle ground figure like 54-55 would be better? Or it may not need a damage buff at all if we're already giving it regen and keeping the food buff damage scaling.

I personally "feel the same" but I do feel as if my preferences are leaning towards maintaining status quo rather than using Ham Bat to break it. I'll take this into consideration in combination with other opinions made in the next 24 hours or so. I can just as easily do 55 as 60, and I'll wait for more feedback to truly commit to one or the other.

Abigail: I think you might be making starter Abigail too fast. To the point where she then might actually outclass all other "maxed out," pre-Hardmode summon weapons, even if her full potential would remain the same. I'd imagine easily getting Abigail day one and her outclassing every other summon weapon pre-Hardmode would make summoner playthroughs a lot more boring, so I'd recommend doing some more tests that compare your Abigail rework to the Vampire Frog Staff, Hornet Staff, and Imp Staff before adding those changes in a patch.

Lucy: These changes sound good. My only concern is that I don't want her to outclass the late-Hardmode axes in terms of harvesting speed.

Weather Pain: Could you please clarify what you meant by "(non-damaging, only how long it lasts)"? I'm all for making the projectile faster, though.

Pew-matic Horn: These changes sound good. I'd also very slightly increase the damage to 20-21, but if you judge that to be too much in conjunction with the other changes, I say go with the rapid-fire approach and not the slow-hitter one.

Houndius: Thank you. This is exactly what I asked for.

Bat Bat: It still sounds like the weapon will be underpowered with any of the proposals you've suggested. I'd say go for:
- Hits with Bat Bat will always steal exactly 1 HP, cannot hit multiple targets for more than 1
- Increase Scale from 1 to 1.15 (makes it a bit bigger, to fit with a slower, harder hitting weapon)
But have the damage be 31 and the UT be 40.

Ham Bat: This sounds like a good idea. I doubt the changes will make the weapon very powerful, but at least it sounds like it'll be useful if you manage to get lucky and get one early into Hardmode.

Frogs: I think your solution to "The Frog Problem" is adequate. I'd recommend also decreasing Froggle's duration to 5-6 minutes, but I'm not sure if that will go through.

Abigail:
Well, what I can do with Abigail here is change the 3->4.5 to a 3->4. I did have numbers run for such a scenario (and with a resulting change to her scaling to keep it even). She is notably faster with 4.5 but not insanely fast. The difference between 4 and 4.5 is not going to be very detectable.

However, I've heard repeated concern that she is too slow . . . so this is the difference between 33% and 50%. If others feel the same, I'm entirely prepared to do 4 instead of 4.5. I can adjust the Acceleration shift as well (it won't have a huge impact, all things considered). Part of this speed boost is meant to be a bit of compensation for her large group DPS reduction that was made yesterday.

Weather Pain:
So Weather Pain can expire in two ways:
1. It's duration expires naturally (3 seconds)
2. It hits 10 times

I could make the duration 60 seconds long and it still can't hit more than 10 times, so all it does is stick around longer. This change increases it's duration by 50%. I ALSO increased the number of times it can hit by 2, so either way, you get more use out of it, but it will not be doing more DPS than it was before.

Bat Bat:
That is basically taking the best stat of each variant and combining them. With it's relatively large size AND the healing . . . I'm not sure I'm on board with that (it's a 30% buff over the current version, which is not unintentionally weak). I could consider a higher DPS variant overall than those proposals but I don't think something just dropping randomly from Bats (and it's healing) should be that strong.


EDIT: More Abigail

1637691970367.png


As can be seen, I can do a 3, a 4, and a 4.5 variant with different degrees of speed.

A 4.5 variant IS a 50% increase on her base 1-Minion speed, true. But by 3 minions, it is only a 20% increase, and at 6 it is only a 7% boost. The appreciable difference here is only going to be detectable in the 1-3 minion range for most players.

You can test out a 4.5 speed Abigail right now just by making a 2-Minion Abigail. Try it out and let me know how you think that feels.
 

TOMKA

Terrarian
I'm not really prepared to be looking into major overhauls to Deerclops at this time, and the Chester decision was (to my recollection) intentional and not something I can simply change so easily.
Speaking of Deerclops, I don't think that it's actually an overhaul. Basically him not despawning causes some issues:
1. It allows players to cheese him. After all of the changes to bosses in 1.4 I think that definitely couldn't have been your goal. I've even thought that it's a glitch when I died to him for the first time. And apparently so did a lot of people (various YouTubers, for example).
2. While some people would like to cheese the boss, some people (including myself) would prefer to actually defeat him the "legitimate" way. And to do that after a failed attempt you have to quit the world and come back. This procedure is even more frustrating in multiplayer. Oh, and also some new players can summon this boss thinking they'll defeat him, but later decide that he's too hard for them and decide not to continue the fight. Him staying after their failed attempt will just act like pillars (restrict them from exploring that part of the world).
3. Last, but not least, it just doesn't fit other bosses' logic. If a Deerclops stays after player's death, why not Moonlord?

All in all, I hardly encourage you to discuss this problem with other devs.

By the way, is there any reason why Deercolps doesn't have his own achievement? I didn't realise it myself until I saw a comment on YouTube, so this can easily be an oversight.
 

Flubman

Terrarian
I know that there would be difficulties with you getting Deerclops reworked, but I'm convinced that having Deerclops despawn upon the player's death would greatly improve Deerclops as a boss fight, especially since it sounds like the items he'll be dropping will now actually be powerful. Allowing an early-game player to beat him by mindlessly smashing their face into a wall 1,000 times to get QB-tier loot sounds like it breaks the game's progression a fair bit.

Abigail: I think it'd come down to testing. If the new, faster "maxed out," pre-Hardmode Abigail ends up outclassing every other pre-hardmode summon, then I'd say that having starter Abigail be a bit slow would be preferable to her rendering every other pre-Hardmode summon useless.

Weather Pain: I say your proposed changes sound good.

Bat Bat: If you think my proposal is too strong, then I trust you.

Edit: I tested Abigail, and it doesn't seem like buffing her speed to 4 would be OP.

Also, I've noticed that Deerclops doesn't appear to count towards the Slayer of Worlds achievement.
 
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Hyperkatmanders

Official Terrarian
Lucy:
- UT reduced from 20 to 17
- Scale increased from 1 to 1.2 (makes her 20% bigger)
- Boost Axe power from 25 to 30

A simple speed increase (which synergizes with her Axe power increase, a nice happy accident), and an increase to her physical size when being swung. When taking her critical rate into consideration, this actually gives her a rather generous DPS. If you do not include Beekeeper's Bees (hard to quantify on average), this should give her the highest DPS potential of any pre-HM sword aside from Night's Edge (which should be the best). With the slightly improved range, I feel this is a fair compromise, and pushing much further risks giving her too much power in contrast to other peers like Fiery Greatsword and Muramasa.
I’m content with this, but will her use time affect her tool speed as well?(aka there’s Use Time and Use Animation, Lucy tool speed(aka Use Time) is 20, same as her Use Animation(which is also 20)
 
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