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PC DST Equipment might need a huge buff...

Flubman

Terrarian
I'm am certain it's an oversight. Why wouldn't every star be able to hit? It makes the weapon feel abysmal to use and kills its potential DPS. If it's a balancing factor, You could straight-up double the DPS and it would STILL be behind the other weapons. I also think that after Moon Lord, weapon feel is more important than weapon balance, and Star Wrath's iframes kill that aspect of it too.
Make a thread about it.
 

AngryNimbus

Terrarian
I'm am certain it's an oversight. Why wouldn't every star be able to hit? It makes the weapon feel abysmal to use and kills its potential DPS. If it's a balancing factor, You could straight-up double the DPS and it would STILL be behind the other weapons. I also think that after Moon Lord, weapon feel is more important than weapon balance, and Star Wrath's iframes kill that aspect of it too.
Let's create another thread really
If we want to discuss this more
This one is for DST stuff
 

whoneedsnamestbh

Eater of Worlds
From a quick look over those proposed changes, they seem mostly good, except I also feel that buffing Ham Bat to 60 base damage on top of the regen buff may make it a bit too good. Maybe a more middle ground figure like 54-55 would be better? Or it may not need a damage buff at all if we're already giving it regen and keeping the food buff damage scaling.
I think Ham Bat looks fine with 60, tbh. According to Bame, this puts it around 225 DPS with life regen, which is acceptable, to put it simply. There are still stronger weapons in and especially outside of Melee, and for the sake of comparison outside Melee, it could be described as a Life Drain that exchanges practical safety for some DPS.

As for the sword status quo… well, I’d argue it’s better to break it than to maintain it. The competing broadswords being ~C tier already means they’re already a low choice and outclassed by most other things you could choose, and that doesn’t really change that much if we add a good broadsword. Having a good broadsword means it adds to the options a player can go for, and in this case especially with a regen buff as well, adds to combat depth. I myself would argue that that’s more important than avoiding making already outclassed weapons ever so slightly more outclassed.
 

Adventurer32

Terrarian
I personally would much rather have all broadswords buffed to a level where they can compete with other options, but I don't believe that making one or two intentionally powerful swords that make most others pointless is the way to go. I'd much rather this be balanced with other comparable(eg. broadsword) options now, and have them all revisited in a future balance patch. Having a relative balance within broadswords also makes them easier to buff collectively in the future(through say, idk, new items that could increase melee speed or something?) without having to worry about a select few becoming overpowered.
 

whoneedsnamestbh

Eater of Worlds
I personally would much rather have all broadswords buffed to a level where they can compete with other options, but I don't believe that making one or two intentionally powerful swords that make most others pointless is the way to go. I'd much rather this be balanced with other comparable(eg. broadsword) options now, and have them all revisited in a future balance patch. Having a relative balance within broadswords also makes them easier to buff collectively in the future(through say, idk, new items that could increase melee speed or something?) without having to worry about a select few becoming overpowered.
The issue here is that the chances of a future balance patch that reanalyzes all broadswords is slim to none. Leinfors hasn’t really been able to look at any balance outside the DST update since the 1.4 balance thread closed more than a year ago, and it’s not likely he will be able to get permission to change *any* broadswords outside of Ham Bat.

That in mind, I think it’s better for Ham Bat to be a slight outlier in the scope of broadswords and be a weapon that people are likely to use than it is for Ham Bat to conform with the rest of them and be doomed to mediocrity for eternity. After all, like I said above, it’s more important to have more combat depth than it is to keep already mediocre, outclassed weapons from being ever-so-slightly more mediocre and outclassed.
 

Adventurer32

Terrarian
On an unrelated note, I'm not sure if this is just me but it feels like the Deerclops sentry makes the OOA event pre-hardmode completely pointless now that there is a better sentry available elsewhere, and there aren't any other useful drops from the event until post 1-mech.
This is not saying the Houndius Shootius is overpowered at all, in fact I think sentries in general need a buff, but perhaps there is an argument for adding something to T1 OOA to make it worth doing? Since atm its locked behind EoW, and is harder to cheese(for newer players) than Deerclops, in addition to not dropping the other weapons Deerclops does. I know it's obviously too much to expect T1 OOA armors but perhaps any way to make Old One's Army worth doing at all pre-hardmode would be nice.
 

AngryNimbus

Terrarian
On an unrelated note, I'm not sure if this is just me but it feels like the Deerclops sentry makes the OOA event pre-hardmode completely pointless now that there is a better sentry available elsewhere, and there aren't any other useful drops from the event until post 1-mech.
This is not saying the Houndius Shootius is overpowered at all, in fact I think sentries in general need a buff, but perhaps there is an argument for adding something to T1 OOA to make it worth doing? Since atm its locked behind EoW, and is harder to cheese(for newer players) than Deerclops, in addition to not dropping the other weapons Deerclops does. I know it's obviously too much to expect T1 OOA armors but perhaps any way to make Old One's Army worth doing at all pre-hardmode would be nice.
I tried Houndius Shootius on Hardmode monsters (spiders in the nest) , and it indeed outperformed OOA T1 alternatives. It is a lot faster than Ballista, while having higher damage. On WoF it seemed to be slightly more efficient too, but still slow for killing hungries alone.
It is applicable for a sidearm
(You won't be able to recast Ballistas, because you need to use your main weapon)
I bumped it in my rating to B+
As far as setries go, it is a very good rating
 

Adventurer32

Terrarian
I tried Houndius Shootius on Hardmode monsters (spiders in the nest) , and it indeed outperformed OOA T1 alternatives. It is a lot faster than Ballista, while having higher damage. On WoF it seemed to be slightly more efficient too, but still slow for killing hungries alone.
It is applicable for a sidearm
(You won't be able to recast Ballistas, because you need to use your main weapon)
I bumped it in my rating to B+
As far as setries go, it is a very good rating
I actually love Houndius Shootius and think its more on par for how powerful sentries "should" be, I just wish it didn't render OOA T1 completely irrelevant. Problem is I think the only real solution to this is a pre-hardmode OOA armor and we all know how likely that is to happen.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
Based on my (intended) design and goals with Houndius, it excels at one thing in particular: single target damage. And that's it. It is accurate, flexible aiming, and has better single target DPS than any of the Tier 1 OOA sentries.

BUT, it has absolutely nothing for group DPS. No splash, no piercing, no DoTs. All 4 of the OOA sentries have better potential group DPS (some more reliably/better than others), and so they are both better fits for the OOA event itself and also better for invasions, enemy-spam biomes (Dungeon) or the like. But Houndius is going to be your better sentry for, say, Skeletron or EoC.

You can say it makes the event pointless, but only because Houndius fills a different niche than they do . . . and they fill a niche that Houndius is pretty bad at.

Make a thread about it.
Let's create another thread really
If we want to discuss this more
This one is for DST stuff
The issue here is that the chances of a future balance patch that reanalyzes all broadswords is slim to none. Leinfors hasn’t really been able to look at any balance outside the DST update since the 1.4 balance thread closed more than a year ago, and it’s not likely he will be able to get permission to change *any* broadswords outside of Ham Bat.

By all means, I love balance discussing and I don't want to discourage any thread making/discussion for balance. But whoneedsnamestbh has it right; I SUSPECT there will be no further balance revisions. Please feel free to discuss but I don't want to give false hope that the feedback/discussion will be acted on. I won't entirely dismiss the possibility, as Red and Cenx have sprung quite a number of surprise updates even on me, but I was comfortable walking away from the 1.4.1 balance changes relatively happy (knowing that there is always more to be done, and there are some oversights I made that should be rectified).

Large scale balance work (such as I did in 1.4/1.4.1 can take months of work and evaluation. That's a pretty long time for me to spend my work hours on, especially as I'm also responsible for bug reporting, testing, and my other minor duties and stuff. I just can't really "dedicate" 3 months of ReLogic time to balancing, and the more significant changes require me calling in better programmers (which takes up even more time). I may in time find myself driven to pursue some personal balancing projects on my free time, and then request permission to have an update for it, but as ReLogic shifts away from Terraria, it's harder and harder to justify the work hours to it. Rest assured; if we ever do have such an event again, I'll make a thread for it and try to get some attention, but I usually don't read balance discussion threads when I'm not approved to work on it; knowing I can't do anything about it just stresses me out, if that makes sense. Balance is important to me, and knowing there are "issues I can't address" is like an itch I can't scratch.
 

Mathbrush1

Terrarian
It's funny you mention Goblin invasions, because I tried to see how long it would take a single Houndius Shootius with pre-hardmode gear to defeat a Goblin Invasion by itself. It took 5 in-game hours to get 35% of the way done. And when I tried a bunch of them on Queen Bee, they kept trying to pick off the bees one at a time, and that's a fight where I usually use lightning aura or exploding traps to kill of the bees quickly. So I see your point.
 

Flubman

Terrarian
Based on my (intended) design and goals with Houndius, it excels at one thing in particular: single target damage. And that's it. It is accurate, flexible aiming, and has better single target DPS than any of the Tier 1 OOA sentries.

BUT, it has absolutely nothing for group DPS. No splash, no piercing, no DoTs. All 4 of the OOA sentries have better potential group DPS (some more reliably/better than others), and so they are both better fits for the OOA event itself and also better for invasions, enemy-spam biomes (Dungeon) or the like. But Houndius is going to be your better sentry for, say, Skeletron or EoC.

You can say it makes the event pointless, but only because Houndius fills a different niche than they do . . . and they fill a niche that Houndius is pretty bad at.





By all means, I love balance discussing and I don't want to discourage any thread making/discussion for balance. But whoneedsnamestbh has it right; I SUSPECT there will be no further balance revisions. Please feel free to discuss but I don't want to give false hope that the feedback/discussion will be acted on. I won't entirely dismiss the possibility, as Red and Cenx have sprung quite a number of surprise updates even on me, but I was comfortable walking away from the 1.4.1 balance changes relatively happy (knowing that there is always more to be done, and there are some oversights I made that should be rectified).

Large scale balance work (such as I did in 1.4/1.4.1 can take months of work and evaluation. That's a pretty long time for me to spend my work hours on, especially as I'm also responsible for bug reporting, testing, and my other minor duties and stuff. I just can't really "dedicate" 3 months of ReLogic time to balancing, and the more significant changes require me calling in better programmers (which takes up even more time). I may in time find myself driven to pursue some personal balancing projects on my free time, and then request permission to have an update for it, but as ReLogic shifts away from Terraria, it's harder and harder to justify the work hours to it. Rest assured; if we ever do have such an event again, I'll make a thread for it and try to get some attention, but I usually don't read balance discussion threads when I'm not approved to work on it; knowing I can't do anything about it just stresses me out, if that makes sense. Balance is important to me, and knowing there are "issues I can't address" is like an itch I can't scratch.
I understand. Sorry about that.

However, I suspect that 1.4.3 won't be the end of Terraria because of how many "final Terraria updates" there have been. If this is the end, I'll be sad (Terraria is one of my favorite games of all time), but I'll look forward to Re-Logic's next game, whatever that may be.

Edit: It looks like the hotfix made a lot of good changes. Nice job, Leinfors!
 
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Mathbrush1

Terrarian
I wanted to offer a 'final report' on the new adjustments. I just started a new character a day or two ago on the Constant seed, focusing on the Pew-Matic and other weird ranged weapons (like Blowgun, Snowball Cannon, Fossil Knives, etc.).

Thoughts on The Constant seed:
Early game is incredibly rough, probably harder than FTW (although I've never played that seed). You starve to death after ten minutes and the only early food source is hitting trees. It's very dark at night, Charlie kills you in the dark, and torches and campfires keep going out from rain so the paths were often unlit. An aboveground spider cave made exploring one side of my world pretty dangerous.

I actually really liked it. Early exploration is one of my favorite phases of the game, so this made it feel extra challenging. In the long run, it felt like 'expert mode' for exploring instead of for bosses. The hunger mechanic actually makes the merchant, angler, and travelling merchant important (for getting a net, for getting better fishing and having excuses to fish, and for buying pho and pad thai, respectively). I think it actually made the long game easier, because I remembered to constantly feed myself, keeping the buffs running.

Random Enemy drops:
I didn't get the bat bat this time, but I got the tentacle spike. I used it instead of my Butcher's Blade because the butcher's blade was so slow. I know you were worried about tentacle spike overshadowing butcher's blade, and I did prefer tentacle spike, but I found them very close in power. Even on the Constant seed, I got many banners worth of crimson monsters before getting the spike.

The Ham Bat is the second thing I've done after making it to hardmode (the first was getting a spider staff). The Ham Bat is absolutely excellent. It made me feel safe in Hardmode. It's strong, but not too strong (I got wrecked by a hallowed mimic right after getting it). It was easy to farm in the Constant seed due to its 10% drop rate, but only after I had another hardmode weapon (the spider staff) and only because the hallow spawned right through my snow biome. In most worlds, I never see a Pigron. It seemed about as easy to farm as the Frostbrand.

Deerclops drops:
Lucy is much better now, and it's all because of the range. I used her as my main sword the rest of pre-hardmode, and she does a pretty good job of keeping away early hardmode mobs, although DPS isn't great at that point. The fiery greatsword or night's edge would be better, but Lucy felt strong enough. In Expert prehardmode, jumping at enemies, I'd usually get hit once or twice before they die to Lucy.

The longer duration on the Weather Pain is great, it helped in boss fights. It's strong but not too strong; its pierce cap means it can take a bone serpent down to a sliver of its health but not kill it. Switching can still be a 'pain' but that's the tradeoff I suppose. Good against hungries on WoF.

The Houndius shootius definitely doesn't replace the OOA minions. When I had a cluster of mobs the explosive trap was much better at getting them. Houndius shootius was good at things like bats and demons. I liked having an extra sentry during OOA, especially for Wyverns.

The Pew-matic is SO much better after the buff! I used it against Skeletron and Wall of Flesh. In both cases it did okay. With Skeletron I forgot I was wearing the angler's hat, so it was a bit harder. With the Wall of Flesh, I had the bone glove, bone helm, rage potion, and an unreal modifier, as well as using Weather pain, and killed it in about 1/5 -1/6 of a medium world's length. To me it seemed worse against WoF than Bee's Knees or Hellwing Bow but better than most other things. And it's been great for knockback in hardmode, and the occasional 'strong' projectile helps overcome enemy defense, making it better for early hardmode than bee's knees or hellwing. It takes some practice to aim right. Overall, I think it's perfectly balanced, right around Handgun and Bee's Knees.

Bone helm is still awesome. How much damage does it do? It'd be nice to add to the wiki.

Other random:
I got two of the paintings and one hairstyle from DST.

Abigail's Flower was nice, again, but I was spending a lot of time in the underground desert, so I switched to Flinx early on for knockback.
 

AngryNimbus

Terrarian
I really enjoyed using new Pew-Matic horn
It is now as a user-friendly alternative to the Phoenix blaster. One of the best weapons on Skeletron in terms of damage/safety

Lucy the Axe is now slightly faster than Bee Keeper on Skeletron head, because bees prevent sword from hitting most of the time.

Abigail is now more agressive in early game (1-2 summon slots), which is definitely a positive change

Since devs treat Tentacle spike as a rarer, but better evil ore swords, it fulfills the function. And now it has a unique pattern. Can't say anything particularly bad

Is it intended that there is no regen buff icon for Ham Bat?
 

Flubman

Terrarian
I had an idea. It probably won't be implemented, but I'll just throw it out here. Why not make it so that Chester shares inventory with the Piggy Bank/Money Trough but has less storage capacity than either of them? This would make the Money Trough no longer obsolete and make Chester no worse than literally any other pet.
 

CellarDoor96

Terrarian
I had an idea. It probably won't be implemented, but I'll just throw it out here. Why not make it so that Chester shares inventory with the Piggy Bank/Money Trough but has less storage capacity than either of them? This would make the Money Trough no longer obsolete and make Chester no worse than literally any other pet.
What... do you mean by this? If it shares inventory with them, then it'll have the same capacity, won't it?

Either way, Chester will still make every pet obsolete as long as it competes for your pet slot and has any function whatsoever.
 

Rgmemo

Spazmatism
Shame the Frog dishes (Sautéed Frog Legs/Froggle Bunwich) were nerfed. They were pretty much the only incentive anyone would have to make their main base in a dangerous biome like the Jungle, which routinely spawns strong enemies that fly and clip through tiles to attack your NPCs.

I don't think Chester is too out of the ordinary either. It's essentially a pet Money Trough which is available much later from arguably the hardest pre-Hardmode boss. Just about everyone is easily capable of getting a Money Trough before even beating King Slime.
 

whoneedsnamestbh

Eater of Worlds
Shame the Frog dishes (Sautéed Frog Legs/Froggle Bunwich) were nerfed. They were pretty much the only incentive anyone would have to make their main base in a dangerous biome like the Jungle, which routinely spawns strong enemies that fly and clip through tiles to attack your NPCs.
The issue was the pure efficiency of mass producing frogs. Froggie Bunwich outclassed every other food source in the game by miles, and the only reason Frog Legs didn’t were because they were tier 2. Frogs were just too common for a tier 3 food from them to be fair.

You don’t even need your base in the jungle for so many frogs, all you have to do is drop by your jungle pylon and run around for two minutes and have a dozen (not even an exaggeration!).
 

Rgmemo

Spazmatism
The issue was the pure efficiency of mass producing frogs. Froggie Bunwich outclassed every other food source in the game by miles, and the only reason Frog Legs didn’t were because they were tier 2. Frogs were just too common for a tier 3 food from them to be fair.

You don’t even need your base in the jungle for so many frogs, all you have to do is drop by your jungle pylon and run around for two minutes and have a dozen (not even an exaggeration!).
I never said The Froggle Bunwich wasn't really good. However, that nerf does mostly make it and the Sautéed Frog Legs redundant, as they were some of the only food items that were actually good that you could reliably acquire. Currently, they're now both completely outclassed by Cooked Shrimp, Lobster Tail and Seafood Dinner — all of which have better "reward" for less input and risk.
 

esotericist

Terrarian
I never said The Froggle Bunwich wasn't really good. However, that nerf does mostly make it and the Sautéed Frog Legs redundant, as they were some of the only food items that were actually good that you could reliably acquire. Currently, they're now both completely outclassed by Cooked Shrimp, Lobster Tail and Seafood Dinner — all of which have better "reward" for less input and risk.

agreed. seafood dinner is super trivial to get if you're doing any fishing progression whatsoever, since you can reliably get ingredient fish that combine to produce it.

and if you're doing any oasis/desert fishing, you'll quickly end up with more lobster than you know what to do with. at least i have.

i feel like substantively reducing the duration of the bunwich at tier 3 rather than making it tier 2 would have been more sensible. instead we went from 'oh hey finally a use for frogs' to 'oh, nevermind, frogs are useless again' in a span of days.
 
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