Weapons & Equip Early game/pre-boss Summoner buffs to try and be funner

[sleepDJ]

Summoner is the most painful class to play pure in the early game. The finch staff and Abigail's flower have to be underpowered to not buff the other classes too hard. The leather whip is not ever used because the Zoologist requirements is either more time taking or not worthwhile compared to farming for a snapthorn whip. The flinx coat is very strong because early in the game, armor set bonuses aren't that impactful, so having 2 flinxes is a great boon. Old One's Army is just spam sentry, protect crystal, spam boss and shows extreme sentry conditions instead of the usual sentry usage people use, and probably more because I haven't played enough summoner.
The problem with balancing is that summons buff every other class, because they can be used for free. So instead of trying to make things easier to obtain, I want to make things funner or at the very least less boring or painful.
Ideas:

• Abigails flower should have an early set time to spawn the first time, and after that it can go back to normal. This just reduces the wait time, it shouldn't buff other classes because they would also get it eventually both before and after this idea, but people that like playing pure don't need to wait as long (this is irrelevant if abigial's flower already has a quick spawn time)
• Abigail's first flower should spawn at the tombstones closest to spawn, since many will create a home base at spawn, and die at night.
• Have Old One's Army show where the portals will be, so players can better prepare the arena (This doesn't really help sentries, the main problem I see is that they just aren't popular)
• Try out the sentry accessories, try out using more sentries, the war table now gives an extra sentry slot for 2 free sentries. They just aren't mobile, so you can either spam them in exchange for mana (it also resets their attack cooldown) or try to lead your enemy
• I have literally no ideas on how to make the finch staff funner to obtain because it currently is just find living wood chest and hope it has the finch staff
• make the finch staff a possible rarer drop from knocking trees, this isn't that good of a solution, but if someone knocks enough trees they could get a finch staff and have a good laugh the first few times.
• The idea that other people in this thread have posted, where a summon is only active when you wield it's weapon, and disappears when you swap out. This means that other classes don't have free damage, but summoner has access to a minute 0 weapon like the others without RNG finch staff or just waiting for Abigail's flower to spawn

Basically all of these got debunked by a person, but I'm keeping them cause I don't know how the replies will work if they get erased. I don't know if putting them inside a spoiler does anything, but I think it will be okay.

Spoiler: Debunked ideas

Some suggestions/ideas:

• Make the finch staff a guaranteed drop in every world in wooden chests instead of living wood chests, have it nose dive to aim better or just be a slower & weaker raven staff, also make them a wooden crate drop [this buffs other classes that can arguably be too much]
• Abigail should do more damage on the first level, and also have more priority on targets closer to the player rather than laser-focusing the same enemy [this buffs other classes too much]
• have leather actually be used in the leather whip, you can also have wood for the handle, or a silk/cloth [this is just a bad idea and an attempt to make leather more useful]
• have a full summoner armor set pre boss? either more flinx murder, incorporate some of that leather so it isn't just used for the leather whip, or jungle materials like a vine diadem so we dont make mage armor that has more defense than platinum [This buffs other classes too much]
• make a craftable sentry and/or make it obtainable in living wood chests. Introduce it early in the game so people see it's value as more than just Old One's Army only. Maybe a critter based one that uses critters as ingredients or a booby trap sentry out of stone or wood similar to the explosive trap sentry [This buffs other classes too much]
• glowsticks, throwing knives, step stools, guide to plant fiber cordage should not be primary loot, this gives any possible summoner items a higher chance in surface chests [Honestly I still think they should be less common, just remove the summoner loot part]

Less confident idea(s):

• How would making summons disappear if you do non-summon damage work? Then after getting far enough in progression where summoner can work standalone (after defeating a boss like queen bee or the evil biome boss), removing this effect? It stifles summoner+other classes forcefully, but allows summoner to have buffs or more weapons in the early game to be less painful.

Cosmetic ideas:

• different finch colors, slime colors, and other summons that have variations in game or in real life
• more summon customization, maybe make them glow light, have hat accessories for summons, or have the dresser give more color than the critter shampoo

I am open to feedback, extra suggestions, and critisism

 

[J Bame]

and probably more because I haven't played enough summoner.

I can tell.

Make the finch staff a guaranteed drop in every world in wooden chests instead of living wood chests, have it nose dive to aim better or just be a slower & weaker raven staff, also make them a wooden crate drop

make a craftable sentry and/or make it obtainable in living wood chests. Introduce it early in the game so people see it's value as more than just Old One's Army only. Maybe a critter based one that uses critters as ingredients or a booby trap sentry out of stone or wood similar to the explosive trap sentry

glowsticks, throwing knives, step stools, guide to plant fiber cordage should not be primary loot, this gives any possible summoner items a higher chance in surface chests

People are so stuck up about having a summoning weapon available from minute 0 that they dont realize the implications of it.

ANY class can use a minion. If you add an easily obtainable minion so early on, everyone can and will get it as soon as possible. It will actually be a bigger buff to non summoners than summoners themselves. This is already the case with the Flinx gear.

Also, the fact we are still getting some complaints about the lack of summoner weapons early on is really funny to me, because mage also needs RNG for not just wand of sparking but also Gems to get their first weapons, said weapons are basically unusable until getting more than 20 mana, yet no one bats an eye at this.

have a full summoner armor set pre boss?

No. Flinx coat is the strongest armor piece at the tier. Every class can summon 2 flinxes for a substantial DPS increase early game.

Old One's Army doesn't feel like a good introduction to sentries, and many people just don't see value in it outside of it,

Doing the event once or twice gives you 4 sentry staves and will effectively triple the power of your sentries (which any class can use)

After the mechs you get 4 sentry oriented sets to choose from. In post golem you get 4 more sentry oriented sets, and on top of it some of the strongest weapons and armor sets in the game.

Right now Ogre weapon drops are the only thing lacking from it.

have leather actually be used in the leather whip, you can also have wood for the handle, or a silk/cloth

I dont think you realize how costly leather is, or how its only for Corruption worlds, or how you could just make it easier to get if you really think its hard to get (it really isnt)

 

[The Rope God🌳]

Summoner is the most painful class to play pure in the early game. The finch staff is not guaranteed in every seed, it also misses a whole lot, there is no summoner weapon in natural wooden chests, Abigail's flower is underwhelming and also not obtainable in hardcore (though it's so underwhelming it isn't even worth it), the leather whip is not ever used because the Zoologist requirement + waiting for her to arrive takes more time than farming for a snapthorn whip and a jungle helmet and boots, and we have to get mage armor because the flinx set is only a chest piece, Old One's Army doesn't feel like a good introduction to sentries, and many people just don't see value in it outside of it, and probably more because I haven't played enough summoner.
Some suggestions/ideas:

• Make the finch staff a guaranteed drop in every world in wooden chests instead of living wood chests, have it nose dive to aim better or just be a slower & weaker raven staff, also make them a wooden crate drop
• Abigail should do more damage on the first level, and also have more priority on targets closer to the player rather than laser-focusing the same enemy
• have leather actually be used in the leather whip, you can also have wood for the handle, or a silk/cloth
• have a full summoner armor set pre boss? either more flinx murder, incorporate some of that leather so it isn't just used for the leather whip, or jungle materials like a vine diadem so we dont make mage armor that has more defense than platinum
• make a craftable sentry and/or make it obtainable in living wood chests. Introduce it early in the game so people see it's value as more than just Old One's Army only. Maybe a critter based one that uses critters as ingredients or a booby trap sentry out of stone or wood similar to the explosive trap sentry
• glowsticks, throwing knives, step stools, guide to plant fiber cordage should not be primary loot, this gives any possible summoner items a higher chance in surface chests

Cosmetic ideas:

• different finch colors, slime colors, and other summons that have variations in game or in real life
• more summon customization, maybe make them glow light, have hat accessories for summons, or have the dresser give more color than the critter shampoo

all of this is pre boss, and I am open to feedback, extra suggestions, and critisism

Also, in Hardcore, NPCs drop Gravestones, so Abigail's flower is obtainable

 

[Stellar Mastodon 267]

If it was really necessary, maybe add a wild crop that gives a Gnarly Carrot which summons a Rabbit of Caerbannog. Fast Speed, massive damage, good armor penetration, but the carrot will drop upon death and has a shorter despawn time.

 

[Big Sammich]

J Bame is right. Buffing Summoner is a can of worms that really doesn't even need to be opened.

 

[sleepDJ]

ANY class can use a minion. If you add an easily obtainable minion so early on, everyone can and will get it as soon as possible. It will actually be a bigger buff to non summoners than summoners themselves. This is already the case with the Flinx gear.

So we want buffs that exclusively support summoner, while not punishing a hybrid playstyle, and also allowing a pure summoner experience to be a similar difficulty to the other 3 classes.

Also, the fact we are still getting some complaints about the lack of summoner weapons early on is really funny to me, because mage also needs RNG for not just wand of sparking but also Gems to get their first weapons, said weapons are basically unusable until getting more than 20 mana, yet no one bats an eye at this.

Understandable, I think they don't care much because the wand of sparking and wand of frosting make the gem staves + robes useless most of the time. Also the finch staff is still rarer than the wand of sparking because it's in living chests instead of surface chests, despite being worse (though the reason makes sense).

No. Flinx coat is the strongest armor piece at the tier.

Why can't it just increase summon damage, or decrease/increase summon knockback, or anything other than just +x summons? Just like how many class armor sets have bonuses exclusive to their damage type. Alternatively, instead of armor, accessories that buff maybe whips? or really small summon buffs that other classes would replace when they get class exclusive accessories, that summoner can keep.

Every class can summon 2 flinxes for a substantial DPS increase early game.

The fact that you use 2 flinxes instead of 2 finches or Abigail's flower at the second level implies just how bad they are. Many people will use Abigail early game because they died and wow, very tiny, but free damage. But the finch staff is never used for 2 reasons, it's rare and it has very bad aim. One of the points is to have less grind for pure summoner, as pure class type playstyles are common, or at least mainstream. If they have to stay weak just to get better RNG, fine but a summon damage only (ignoring shield of Cthulhu & tools) run should be consistently viable rather than being heavily based on RNG.

Doing the event once or twice gives you 4 sentry staves and will effectively triple the power of your sentries (which any class can use)

This implies removing class specific or generic good accessories for sentry buffing. I don't know how many people want to take that risk when the popular opinion is that many summoner ais' are bad unless they can guarantee a hit. This could change if a weak but useable sentry was available early game and made people consider swapping tried and true accessories for the Old One's Army ones.

After the mechs you get 4 sentry oriented sets to choose from. In post golem you get 4 more sentry oriented sets, and on top of it some of the strongest weapons and armor sets in the game.

But they are grinded for the armor sets not the sentries, because post Golem is Empress, cultist, pillars, and moon lord. Only the Empress and pillars have an arena for sentries since they are grounded, as Soaring Insignia removes the need for a good arena when you can fly infinitely and possibly hover.

I dont think you realize how costly leather is, or how its only for Corruption worlds, or how you could just make it easier to get if you really think its hard to get (it really isnt)

15% bestiary completion and 10 gold coins is harder to do than to just grind for a snapthorn and jungle set. I don't know how early game whips would affect other classes because they could just use melee damage with feral claws. This suggestion could also make leather more than just cash or a full archeologist set, why not just make leather easier to obtain, and then give it more usage in crafts?

Also, in Hardcore, NPCs drop Gravestones, so Abigail's flower is obtainable

Oh, nice, I don't think it's worth getting in hardcore because it implies staying with your NPC's while they are in danger, and therefore intentionally putting yourself in danger, just for Abigail's flower when the easier early game weapons are stronger.

If it was really necessary, maybe add a wild crop that gives a Gnarly Carrot which summons a Rabbit of Caerbannog. Fast Speed, massive damage, good armor penetration, but the carrot will drop upon death and has a shorter despawn time.

I like the idea of making an enemy drop for early game, but this idea buffs every class because summons can be used by all classes. Also many people don't like items that drop on death, they could just play mediumcore. Despawning in Terraria is based on item count, they can stay on the ground forever as long as it doesn't hit the cap or you save and exit.

 

[The Rope God🌳]

Just so above poster knows, (i ain't quoting all that for a tiny part)
Flinx coat does increase summon damage by 5%

 

[Cave wizard]

People are so stuck up about having a summoning weapon available from minute 0 that they dont realize the implications of it.

ANY class can use a minion. If you add an easily obtainable minion so early on, everyone can and will get it as soon as possible. It will actually be a bigger buff to non summoners than summoners themselves. This is already the case with the Flinx gear.

This could be solved by creating a minion of some kind that only acts when you have it in your active hotbar slot. A very early whip would most likely outclass early melee weapons due to range alone, so that's probably not a great solution. However, that kind of active minion would be a new subtype of minion and I'm not sure if they want to go through the extra work to get that working. I agree with you about early game mages.

(i ain't quoting all that for a tiny part)

You can just quote specific parts.

 

[The Rope God🌳]

I mean, summoner doesn't really need a buff.
Its already strong enough, you just need to be good at dodging.

Pre-boss is kinda not a point where a class should be considered, because "classes" only really start after EoW, LATEST Skeletron.

And Summoner has the Snapthorn And the Vampire frog staff, so it has some good options, but as with all things Summoner, you have to go out of your way to get it.

 

[J Bame]

Why can't it just increase summon damage, or decrease/increase summon knockback, or anything other than just +x summons? Just like how many class armor sets have bonuses exclusive to their damage type. Alternatively, instead of armor, accessories that buff maybe whips? or really small summon buffs that other classes would replace when they get class exclusive accessories, that summoner can keep

Because Flinx Coat is already the strongest armor piece at the tier, summoner is one of if not the strongest preboss class, and doesnt need any sort of buff

risk when the popular opinion is that many summoner ais' are bad unless they can guarantee a hit

Not sure what this part here has to do with sentries but almost all minions right now have very very consistent AIs.

This could change if a weak but useable sentry was available early game and made people consider swapping tried and true accessories for the Old One's Army ones.

Houndious exists, the Ballista Staff is the best sentry prehardmode, Queen Spider Staff is super easy to craft

The sentries are there. The sentry gear is mostly there. Sentries have much more DPS than they are given credit for too. The problem is sentries are just fundamentally flawed; they are built to be high dps but unreliable range and no mobility.

The only way to get a sentry build to work is to turtle up in one spot so that sentries can actually hit their targets. This playstyle has a ton of DPS but... it's just lame. And unreliable for bosses. Therefore, people skip sentries altogether.

So: the problem isnt that you cant craft terrible Wooden-Bow tier Sentry with Wood. Making sentries work will need a rebalance to fix reliability/accuracy issues, while somehow keeping Summoner power ceiling the same as it is now. In short a lot of work.

The fact that you use 2 flinxes instead of 2 finches or Abigail's flower at the second level implies just how bad they are. Many people will use Abigail early game because they died and wow, very tiny, but free damage. But the finch staff is never used for 2 reasons, it's rare and it has very bad aim. One of the points is to have less grind for pure summoner, as pure class type playstyles are common, or at least mainstream. If they have to stay weak just to get better RNG, fine but a summon damage only (ignoring shield of Cthulhu & tools) run should be consistently viable rather than being heavily based on RNG.

Finch and Abi are minion 0 in progression, Flinx is minion 1. Flinx is made to be better, and so it is better. Flinx Fur also drops like crazy after 1.4.4 so i dont get the RNG there.
A Summon weapon available from minute 0 is unnecessary, will probably suck just to stay balanced, and only covers a meaningless gap in progression.

Side note but the finch is actually much stronger on bosses than you'd expect, and Abigail has a purpose in being the best minion early hardmode to get the blade and sanguine staves

But they are grinded for the armor sets not the sentries, because post Golem is Empress, cultist, pillars, and moon lord. Only the Empress and pillars have an arena for sentries since they are grounded, as Soaring Insignia removes the need for a good arena when you can fly infinitely and possibly hover

OOA tier 3 will likely be done with Tier 3 sentries. Get a full armor set from the event and your tier 3 sentry now gets a huge powerup from the Set bonus, and you get a huge amount of sentry slots. There is no reason not to use the sentries at that point.

As for the rest, see above.

15% bestiary completion and 10 gold coins is harder to do than to just grind for a snapthorn and jungle set.

you only need 10%

Rushing Jungle early and grinding jungle enemies is somehow easier than exploring caves for a little while and building a pair of houses

10 gold isnt even that much

 

[sleepDJ]

Thanks for the insight with sentries, summoner armor, and some cool tips that I have never heard of or seen anyone use. I've changed my mind on some things, but I still feel like summoner is a pain early game. I am instead trying to think of ideas that make obtaining the first sentry weapons funner or more interesting, instead of just easier.

Finch and Abi are minion 0 in progression, Flinx is minion 1. Flinx is made to be better, and so it is better. Flinx Fur also drops like crazy after 1.4.4 so i dont get the RNG there.
A Summon weapon available from minute 0 is unnecessary, will probably suck just to stay balanced, and only covers a meaningless gap in progression.

The RNG issue is with the finch staff, and how unlike any other class, summoner's first weapon is based on RNG of: world seed has close living wood trees, those living wood trees have to have a chest, and that chest has to have a finch staff or dying repeatedly and waiting for Abigail's flower to spawn. It's boring and less fun than the other classes who can either craft their first weapons, or just explore the surface because finding a surface wooden chest soon is guaranteed.

Side note but the finch is actually much stronger on bosses than you'd expect, and Abigail has a purpose in being the best minion early hardmode to get the blade and sanguine staves

Fighting bosses isn't very useful pre-boss, when you are trying to obtain the flinx staff. Most people don't use Abgial the moment they get the flinx staff, because 1: it doesn't even mention the post hardmode buff in the game that I know of, you have to go to Abigail's flower's wiki page, and 2: it's almost always sold or stored forever post flinx because why would a normal person continue using weaker summons in progression

Rushing Jungle early and grinding jungle enemies is somehow easier than exploring caves for a little while and building a pair of houses

Yes, rushing to the jungle, boxing yourself in with room to dodge the trappers (unless you are skilled enough to just dodge), and spamming a summon is easier than exploring the caves for a while, building some houses, and collecting 10 gold. It's not funner, and it's really boring, but it exists. It's also even easier if you play a hybrid setup where you can deal damage and knockback yourself.

10 gold isnt even that much

You need skill and knowing when to not over greed to preserve 10 gold. Less skilled players die in the jungle because it has a higher difficulty level than the caves, but the caves have one-shotting traps, more ranged attackers, and lava. The difference is that your jungle loot isn't lost, but your money is.
For more skilled players, they don't need to spend 10 gold because they are strong enough to survive the jungle and just get a snapthorn, but less skilled players die and can't get the money to get the whip, which they wouldn't spend 10 gold on the leather whip when they could instead save for goblin reforges, piggy banks, torches, or other possible wares that they may have unlocked.

Now, for ideas to make things funner, I'll instead put them in edits of the main post so people don't need to scroll down. Though first I need to think of some

 

[Shyguymask]

why would a normal person continue using weaker summons in progression

Because Finch performs better than Flinx for EoW/BoC overall, and most pre-hardmode minions don't have local i-frames meaning they easily interrupt each other consistently once you have 3 or more of them out at once (Most easily seen with Vampire Frog).