tModLoader Experience and Classes

[Saerus]

ohhhhh xD that might be it

It is a bit of a hassle though.

I will move the UI position info to character data so that it never resets. This will be in either the next version, or the one after that.

Edit: The changes have been made. This will be in the next version.

 

[Avarlia]

Thanks

It's certainly possible to move information between the server and clients. For example, experience values are synced this way in multiplayer. It's more an issue of "I can do this, but it will be a bit tedious and not so fun. Is it worth the effort?".

Well, the only way to see if it's worth it is trying, right? Not going to push or anything, you are still doing a great job =)

 

[Saerus]

v0.4.0
-updated all class token sprites using http://game-icons.net/
-store UI position in character data to prevent UI reset during updates

Version 0.4 brings us into the 21st century with new, sexy sprites!

Well, the only way to see if it's worth it is trying, right? Not going to push or anything, you are still doing a great job =)

I'll take a look at it early next week. I will be mostly away until then.

 

[Kagutsuchi]

Hey, regarding the community questions:
1 - How much do you mind classes taking up an accessory slot?
A: Not much, since it has more potential than a accessory. And we can make an extra slot using Cheat Sheet.

2 - Should class progression be gated by collection quests, mythril anvil, etc?
A: I think you are talking about questions, yes, it would be nice to gain xp by completing questions, but this is not a priority, we can talk about that later.

3 - What is your opinion of the current classes and progressions?
A: I think the classes the mod provides are enought, you just have to balance them more, use people's suggestions, we can balance it together.
ps: I know you already use it, but don't add any major class change without talking to us first, please :/

4 - At what point should I "release" this mod?
A: I didn't understand this question. Haven't you released it already?

 

[Saerus]

1 - How much do you mind classes taking up an accessory slot?
A: Not much, since it has more potential than a accessory. And we can make an extra slot using Cheat Sheet.

Great! The accessory model is very convenient to work with so I hope to keep using it unless there is an outcry.

2 - Should class progression be gated by collection quests, mythril anvil, etc?
A: I think you are talking about questions, yes, it would be nice to gain xp by completing questions, but this is not a priority, we can talk about that later.

This is two separate thoughts:
1. Should we gate the class advancements to ensure that they are not used too early? For example, require that a certain boss has been defeated or that we're reached Mythril Anvil, etc.
2. Should there be a collection component given that this is Terraria? For example, crafting the tank advancement could require a bunch of stone or metals. That sort of thing.

3 - What is your opinion of the current classes and progressions?
A: I think the classes the mod provides are enought, you just have to balance them more, use people's suggestions, we can balance it together.
ps: I know you already use it, but don't add any major class change without talking to us first, please :/

I'll be leaving the class balance alone until you guys ask for changes.

To anyone willing to help balance, please refer to this spreadsheet https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0MAvKt4u50dTXNNUFhCekNOQlU/view?usp=sharing (best viewed in excel)

4 - At what point should I "release" this mod?
A: I didn't understand this question. Haven't you released it already?

We're still in the WIP sub-forum. My questions was about when we should migrate to the release sub-forum.

Edit: I have updated the community feedback section to improve clarity.

 

[updatedude]

Hi, finally updated to version 0.3.4.

Kudos on a really nice update. Messing around with explvlset, it seems pretty well balanced while still basically offering an exceptional accessory. At levels 25-50, it's better than most/all OP accessories from other mods. At low/moderate levels, it's an exceptional but not game breaking accessory.

That said, I think I'll probably stick with v0.2.2. The reason being that that version offers the widest range of customization (albeit at the cost of crashing fairly often while using the dialogue box and the whole jump speed thing). If I want a challenge, I can set the exp rate to 0, effectively turning the mod off. If I want to have slower gains, I can play as normal or set a lower exp rate or even reset my level to what I want. If I want to be OP though, I can set my level high.

0.3.4 offers all of the above and has less issues, but for me, hmm, how do I put this...

Let me preface by saying that I think this is an EXCELLENT mod and that Saerus has been extremely generous with his time/effort. I also think that 0.3.4 is probably the best version yet. I'm not complaining. I'm not asking for new features. I'm not asking for changes. I would also like to add that seeing as the update just dropped, I obviously haven't extensively play tested v034 with all classes yet. So maybe a lot of what I'm saying will be totally wrong because it only applies to my limited pool of data. I'm just giving my point of view.

It's just that for me, what separates this mod was that there were noticeable gains between level ups and the ability to be ridiculously OP (via cheating). This added a totally new layer to the Terraria experience. Heck, I turned off Class Based RPG, Boss Checklist and T-Races in favor of this mod because this mod gives me the ability to grow my character through interacting with the world without penalizing me if I decide not to stick with the class I've pre-chosen. For instance, in this mod, if I take a summoner class but can't find any summoner weapons, I won't suffer a 10%-20% penalty if I use another class of weapon until I find a new summoning staff.

Also, in older versions, it becomes noticeably easier as you grind/level up. Like a traditional JRPG, a lack of equipment can be offset with sufficient leveling up. So if you can't beat Skeletron with your current gear, you can level up a few times and that'll give you the edge you need. Even if you're still using the same gear. And of course, at the end of a lot of grinding, when you want to just let off a lil' destructive steam, you can set yourself to a ridiculously high level and just annihilate everything in an orgy of murder before resetting back to your previous level.

Now, the above can still be achievable by adjusting the exp rate to compensate for the lower stat gains via speedier level gains. But it just doesn't feel quite right to me. The increments feel too smooth, thus removing that hit of euphoria when you level up.

Okay, in writing all this up, I think I've hit upon what's bothering me with the newer versions. It's not that we can't be OP with v034+. It's that it's too smoothly integrated. It's harder to see/feel the increase in stats vs finding or crafting a new weapon or accessory that gives a noticeable upgrade. What made me so excited about this Mod wasn't that it allowed me to be OP because I was already able to be OP by equipping the Soul Accessories from Cheeze's Content Pack. It was that it changed the feel of the entire Terraria experience by adding... well, experience and classes. You can feel yourself leveling up and playing a certain class gives a distinct advantage. But right now? I find myself having to change to melee/range/magic while playing a summoner because I don't yet have a summoning weapon that can handle where I am in the game. Which pretty much makes it no different that vanilla play y'know? I can compensate for this by setting a higher exp rate but again, in this case, there's a lost of "the feeling of accomplishment" when you have to gain 4 levels instead of just 1 or 2.

tl;dr, v.0.3.4 is great because it ADDS to Terraria, but I'm sticking to v.0.2.2 because I feel it CHANGES the Terraria experience. Heck, if I could revert to v.0.1.7, I would.

Hopefully I made sense and I haven't offended you. I'm hoping a config will come out so we can have the best of both worlds.

Aaaaaaaaaand it seems v.0.4.0 came out while I was typing this. You sir, are a MAD MAN with how furiously you're updating/coding this. Bravo!

 

[Saerus]

Hi, finally updated to version 0.3.4.

Kudos on a really nice update. Messing around with explvlset, it seems pretty well balanced while still basically offering an exceptional accessory. At levels 25-50, it's better than most/all OP accessories from other mods. At low/moderate levels, it's an exceptional but not game breaking accessory.

That said, I think I'll probably stick with v0.2.2. The reason being that that version offers the widest range of customization (albeit at the cost of crashing fairly often while using the dialogue box and the whole jump speed thing). If I want a challenge, I can set the exp rate to 0, effectively turning the mod off. If I want to have slower gains, I can play as normal or set a lower exp rate or even reset my level to what I want. If I want to be OP though, I can set my level high.

0.3.4 offers all of the above and has less issues, but for me, hmm, how do I put this...

Let me preface by saying that I think this is an EXCELLENT mod and that Saerus has been extremely generous with his time/effort. I also think that 0.3.4 is probably the best version yet. I'm not complaining. I'm not asking for new features. I'm not asking for changes. I would also like to add that seeing as the update just dropped, I obviously haven't extensively play tested v034 with all classes yet. So maybe a lot of what I'm saying will be totally wrong because it only applies to my limited pool of data. I'm just giving my point of view.

It's just that for me, what separates this mod was that there were noticeable gains between level ups and the ability to be ridiculously OP (via cheating). This added a totally new layer to the Terraria experience. Heck, I turned off Class Based RPG, Boss Checklist and T-Races in favor of this mod because this mod gives me the ability to grow my character through interacting with the world without penalizing me if I decide not to stick with the class I've pre-chosen. For instance, in this mod, if I take a summoner class but can't find any summoner weapons, I won't suffer a 10%-20% penalty if I use another class of weapon until I find a new summoning staff.

Also, in older versions, it becomes noticeably easier as you grind/level up. Like a traditional JRPG, a lack of equipment can be offset with sufficient leveling up. So if you can't beat Skeletron with your current gear, you can level up a few times and that'll give you the edge you need. Even if you're still using the same gear. And of course, at the end of a lot of grinding, when you want to just let off a lil' destructive steam, you can set yourself to a ridiculously high level and just annihilate everything in an orgy of murder before resetting back to your previous level.

Now, the above can still be achievable by adjusting the exp rate to compensate for the lower stat gains via speedier level gains. But it just doesn't feel quite right to me. The increments feel too smooth, thus removing that hit of euphoria when you level up.

Okay, in writing all this up, I think I've hit upon what's bothering me with the newer versions. It's not that we can't be OP with v034+. It's that it's too smoothly integrated. It's harder to see/feel the increase in stats vs finding or crafting a new weapon or accessory that gives a noticeable upgrade. What made me so excited about this Mod wasn't that it allowed me to be OP because I was already able to be OP by equipping the Soul Accessories from Cheeze's Content Pack. It was that it changed the feel of the entire Terraria experience by adding... well, experience and classes. You can feel yourself leveling up and playing a certain class gives a distinct advantage. But right now? I find myself having to change to melee/range/magic while playing a summoner because I don't yet have a summoning weapon that can handle where I am in the game. Which pretty much makes it no different that vanilla play y'know? I can compensate for this by setting a higher exp rate but again, in this case, there's a lost of "the feeling of accomplishment" when you have to gain 4 levels instead of just 1 or 2.

tl;dr, v.0.3.4 is great because it ADDS to Terraria, but I'm sticking to v.0.2.2 because I feel it CHANGES the Terraria experience. Heck, if I could revert to v.0.1.7, I would.

Hopefully I made sense and I haven't offended you. I'm hoping a config will come out so we can have the best of both worlds.

Aaaaaaaaaand it seems v.0.4.0 came out while I was typing this. You sir, are a MAD MAN with how furiously you're updating/coding this. Bravo!

...but if you don't update to v0.4.0, then you'll never get to experience the new pretty, pretty sprites

Thank you very much for your detailed review. This surpasses any feedback that I expected.

I have an idea. I could very easily add a /explegacy mode that reverts all class bonuses to their pre-balance state. I could even have this mode revert the level formula. The only issue (and it's a minor one) is that, in multiplayer, if one person used legacy and another didn't then their levels would appear different to each other. Let me know if you're interested in this.

Edit: I'm surprised that you are having issues with summoner. Minion Master is probably the strongest class in the mod and has a clear advancement every few levels as you unlock more and more minions.

Edit2: Minion Master also has the best new sprite. Just sayin'.

Edit3: I'll probably just add the config stuff next week.

 

[updatedude]

1. How much do you mind classes taking up an accessory slot?
Don't mind it at all.

2. Should class progression be gated by certain bosses, mythril anvil, etc?
Nah. Totally not bosses or hardmode. The point of leveling up is to make things easier against enemies or be able to take on bosses while under geared. Otherwise, there's no difference vs vanilla Terraria.

3. Should crafting class advancements have a collection component (e.g., tanks need to craft with a bunch of stones or metals)?
Sounds good. I would suggest the recipes not being too complex. Needing to grind more material is okay. But no more than say 2 types of materials. I find complex recipes to be a turn off.

4. What is your opinion of the current classes and progressions?
Seem good so far. Perhaps you might consider some unconventional classes like high defense penetration or high melee speed class? Oooh, oooh, or how about a class whose main power is reduced ammo and/or mana usage as they level up. The Spammer class. They don't do extra damage but can spam.

5. At what point should we migrate to the Release sub-forum?
Probably should see how things evolve. But it seems to be more or less done anyway, so anytime you feel comfortable?

 

[updatedude]

Edit: I'm surprised that you are having issues with summoner. Minion Master is probably the strongest class in the mod and has a clear advancement every few levels as you unlock more and more minions.

Cool beans. Like I said, I'm fine with things as they are now because I've backed up the older versions. So I wouldn't go through the hassle of a legacy system unless other people agree with me.

As for my summoner run, well, long story short, I've genned into a world that's a tad lacking in resources and I admit, I'm not playing how I normally would. I'm taking on bosses before being fully geared and I'm not using arenas. Skeletron is where I had to resort to conventional Terraria tactics.

 

[Strayed Soul]

something i realized, an Assassin is much better than a Warrior in pretty much all regards. the only thing the Warrior has more of is 1.5 more health per per level and 0.50 melee damage per level then the Assassin. Plus the Assassin has perks at certain levels while the Warrior does not.

 

[Saerus]

something i realized, an Assassin is much better than a Warrior in pretty much all regards. the only thing the Warrior has more of is 1.5 more health per per level and 0.50 melee damage per level then the Assassin. Plus the Assassin has perks at certain levels while the Warrior does not.

Are there any buffs for Warrior or nerfs for Assassin that you might like to see?

 

[leqesai]

Are there any buffs for Warrior or nerfs for Assassin that you might like to see?

It would be nice to see warrior get more agro and get bonuses to melee while reducing efficiency with ranged.

I believe this is something that would help balance all classes.
Summoner should get minion boosts that are really great, but then lose efficiency with other forms of damage. Minion master even moreso.

Assasins should be very efficient with, say, dealing damage but not very good with defending against damage (reduced health for big dmg boost and agro reduction?)

I'm just talking out of my butt here, but classes could have stat-specific pros and cons (pros outweighing the cons, generally) to make playing different classes more beneficial.

 

[Saerus]

It would be nice to see warrior get more agro...

Warriors will have 0.5 aggro/level (tanks have 1.0/level) in the next update.

It would be nice to see warrior get more agro and get bonuses to melee while reducing efficiency with ranged.

I believe this is something that would help balance all classes.
Summoner should get minion boosts that are really great, but then lose efficiency with other forms of damage. Minion master even moreso.

Assasins should be very efficient with, say, dealing damage but not very good with defending against damage (reduced health for big dmg boost and agro reduction?)

I'm just talking out of my butt here, but classes could have stat-specific pros and cons (pros outweighing the cons, generally) to make playing different classes more beneficial.

Several people have commented on giving classes downsides/cons. Some people are all for it while others are very much against it. If it becomes clear that the majority of people want downsides, then I will add them. Until then, we won't have downsides and here is why:
1. They just don't do very much.

A. Decreasing health/defense/etc below vanilla values is not reasonable or fun. Very few would choose these options, especially for already squishy play types (e.g., mages).
B. Decreasing off damage types generally has no consequence past early game. If a ranger deals 10% less melee/magic/minion damage, this really won't change anything. The ranger is going to be using ranged weapons almost exclusively. When they do use other damage types, it will generally be for utility rather than damage. Anyone who likes to use several damage can roll a Hybrid.​

2. Don't feel good/doesn't improve the experience.

A. Nobody likes to be limited. If you build a specific style, then penalties to other styles won't impact you very much, but they also won't improve the overall experience. If anything, knowing that you are pigeonholed (even though you did it to yourself) will make for a worse experience.​

This is certainly open for debate. I want to give you guys what you want. I can always adjust my own personal version if I don't like the direction that the public release is going.

tldr; Adding downsides to classes is open for discussion. My thoughts are that they don't improve the experience and that they limit your options while doing little to improve balance.

 

[updatedude]

For Warrior vs Assassin, perhaps it could do with some melee speed adjustment?

Buff Warrior and maybe nerf Assassin's melee speed?

No need for aggro adjustment because Warrior isn't strictly a tank.

Here's why. Let's say Warrior and Assassin are both using a 100 dmg sword. Assuming crit does double damage...

At level 10, Warrior would do say 125 per swing and proc a crit on the 20th swing? So that's about 2750 dmg after 21 swings?

While Assassin, would do 120 per swing and proc a crit every 3rd swing. So that's about 3360 dmg after 21 swings, which isn't too bad. But Assassin's 5 times faster on the swing?

Of course, these numbers are super general and inaccurate but it sort of illustrates why Assassin is currently superior. However, if Assassin has an equal or lower melee speed bonus, that should roughly even things out. And it would make sense for an Assassin to be a one-hit one-kill type. Heck, perhaps this means that a melee speed Berserker class can be added later.

We don't need the mod to be super balanced. It doesn't matter if Assassin does more damage than Warrior so long as there's a reason to play Warrior.

-------------------

Class Penalties
What's the point? Seriously, what's the point? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm actually asking... what's the point of having a mod, whose basic premise is to make you stronger, hamstring you. Especially since you can do it yourself.

Here's an example. I tend to bring super powerful Endgame pickaxes when playing a new character. I only use the pickaxe to dig or cut down trees. When an enemy approaches, I switch to my regular weapon which does less damage and I get killed as a result. I could have used the pickaxe to murderize the enemy but I don't because I choose not to.

I was complaining in an earlier post that my Summoner was getting creamed because I couldn't find any Summoning gear in my playthrough and that forced me to use other weapons (which luckily, are not arbitrarily nerfed by the mod). Well, here's the thing, while I complained... the truth is, I could have easily cheat sheeted a Stardust Dragon or at least, an Optic Staff. I simply chose not to. In fact, since I'm using an Endgame pickaxe, I could easy dig down and get myself Molten gear, but instead, I let myself get pwned by Skeletron until I was "forced" to build an arena to deal with him.

So the point is, I seriously don't see what's the point of having the mod limit the player. The player can easily limit him/herself. What we can't do, is make things easier for ourselves.

For instance, I have a Damage Reduction and Defense character whose only way of doing damage is to run into enemies and exploding on them. After a few times, he has to run away to regen his life. That's not something that can be done with Vanilla Terraria, but between this mod and a few others, I'm able to do this now.

I can easily refrain from using any weapon type except throwing or summoning, but I can't have a super long Stardust Dragon without the use of mods.

The thing is, there are several types of mods. Some improve the quality of life, like the imksushi mods or the Less Grinding Mod. Some add challenge while others add content.

You can't really compare Experience and Classes with mods whose objective is to add challenge. Because then you're going to keep nerfing and nerfing the stat gains in the name of "balance". I mean... how the heck can we make the game more "challenging"/"balanced" when the main thing that the mod does, is make the character stronger? Well, you can make the process of becoming stronger into a bigger grind or you can inflict penalties for using the mod until you use the mod enough to offset the penalties.

See? I just don't get the logic of it. Unless I'm missing something?

I would put Experience and Classes in the same general category as Class Based RPG and T Races. But what separates E&C is that it doesn't penalize you if you choose not to play according to your class (and the ability to be super OP). In that regard, it's probably the "best" of these 3 because it offers the most versatility.

But let's say, you really DO want penalties. Here's what I did... I enabled Class Based RPG.

For instance, I rolled a Fortress class through CBRPG, which gives a -20% to all damage. Then I played a Tank in E&C. This gave me the stat gains of E&C, the smaller stat gains of CBRPG and the penalties of CBRPG. And now I can switch classes of both mods at will, thereby customizing my character to an incredible degree.

Phew... pardon my ranting and stream of consciousness writing.

So, to summarize...

Warrior vs Assassin, just nerf Assassin's melee speed. It doesn't matter if Assassin is a little stronger than Warrior in terms of DPS.

Implementing Penalties, I don't see the logic of it. There's no apparent gain that can't be simulated using other mods or just plain ol' self-control.

More Classes? Make them weird! Like Spammer Class who doesn't do more damage, but uses less mana/ammo. Or a Regenerator class who doesn't have bonus Defense but has higher HP/Mana Regen? Maybe an Immunity Class who gains no stat bonuses but a new immunity every level or two instead. Damage Reduction class would be pretty OP though.

 

[Strayed Soul]

After testing the classes again, i do like the way they are now, i forgot that warriors get the health regen which is a great. My thought are that Assassin should be more dependent on crits than dmg, plus it shall help separate the two classes from being similar, so how about increasing the Assassin's max crit value, and slightly decreasing their base damage per lvl. I do know that that would be considered a nerf since they might hit 100% crit with accessories either way. Unless there is a way to increase crit damage or a crit multiplier then that would offset the nerf. My 2nd though is to actually lower their helth per level from the rouge or keep it at one per level, and add a reduction to aggro per level (opposite of the tank), so that makes them more of a glass cannon class by being slightly more fragile and assassin-like by reducing aggro, and upping their dmg via crit damage than base damage.

(just thought of this, you can add the assassin crit multiplier as a level unlock instead of a % every level and capping it, again if that's even a possible thing to do)

We don't need the mod to be super balanced. It doesn't matter if Assassin does more damage than Warrior so long as there's a reason to play Warrior.

And warriors have health regen compared to the assassin movement speed. I forgot about that major difference in the first place, one is good for staying the thick of a fight while the other can just run around and dodge the fight. But overall i agree that a separate reason to play Warrior over an Assassin or vice versa is needed, my thought is to make the assassin more of an RPG crit based assassin is the 'best' method to do so.

(also another thought, can you add dodge chance per level or add a solid dodge chance at a certain level for Assassin, that would add to them as well)

 

[leqesai]

Class downsides may not be the ideal solution, but there should definitely be something that would make someone want to be a warrior instead of a ranger, or a summoner instead of an assasin.

Maybe there should be more things added along the lines of the cleric's aura. Maybe a special weapon or armor set that is either crap when not equipped on the proper class or has a very cool hidden power when equipped by the appropriate class.

Maybe an assasin knife that causes bleeds when equipped by an assasin, or a warrior sword that gets a big damage boost when used by a warrior (or maybe it has an ability that enlarges the weapon to have a wider area of attack).

Not sure if this is really practical but I'm brainstorming

 

[ardittristan]

me and my friend randomly get lvl 1 the whole time after the last update, any idea why?

 

[Le tromp du Jawa]

Hey I wanted to ask if you have any plans to make this work with the expedition mod that adds quests , because it would be nice as both mods seem made for each other

 

[Onecow]

any fix to the xp reseting?

 

[updatedude]

Hey I wanted to ask if you have any plans to make this work with the expedition mod that adds quests , because it would be nice as both mods seem made for each other

It seems I came into the modding scene at the right time because there's this sudden surge of RPG-ey mods. Honestly, after so long, I finally reached saturation with Terraria. Simply adding content isn't enough anymore. Which is probably why I like mods like Experience and Classes and the Expeditions mods so much, because they change the entire feel of the game.