Expert Destroyer Nerf

[Thee Pie Man]

Expert Destroyer is kind of bull. It's not impossible, as I've beaten it with pre mech equipment on a fesh character and world yada yada you know all this, but I didn't feel like it was POSSIBLE to beat with skill exactly.

The one and only strategy I can see that works (and isn't blatant cheese like spike exploiting or what not) is to jack your defense as high as it can go, and avoid that head like it's the only thing that matters. Bumrush it down with the most effective weapons available, and pray to your camplanterns it works. I used a combination of nimbus rod and fetid bagnhahdnsdvbs (crimson mimic drop) to take it down, and while I was only taking 30-ish damage from body contact and the lasers, that's still a huge amount of damage to be taking steadily over the fight.

Ranged, mage, whatever you do, get the melee set of your best available armor, try your best to not get hit (it's all but impossible to completely avoid) and just wear it down. That's all you can do. It's all that will work.

Yeah and you're telling me you use strategy for all other enemies in Terraria? Can't the same be said of any of the Destroyers or Eater of Worlds that they are simply large walls of moving tankiness that you avoid as much as possible and try to kill at a distance/along the arc with high armor at those points in the game? I don't use strategy for any of the basic enemies because they get one shotted half the time by the time I get to said enemies. I don't think it should be nerfed though.

Some enemies shouldn't need some complicated way to beat them, including bosses.

 

[General Milky]

Yeah and you're telling me you use strategy for all other enemies in Terraria? Can't the same be said of any of the Destroyers or Eater of Worlds that they are simply large walls of moving tankiness that you avoid as much as possible and try to kill at a distance/along the arc with high armor at those points in the game? I don't use strategy for any of the basic enemies because they get one shotted half the time by the time I get to said enemies. I don't think it should be nerfed though.

Yes, actually, I DO use strategy for everything else. I don't like blowing horns or anything, but I'm that one dude who beat Plantera with a copper shortsword. I got quite a reputation for challenge videos. I'm frequently compared to yrimir.

Point is, I know my Terraria. I've got my credentials, I know every anemy AI inside and out, and most of them can indeed be avoided consistently and you can do something to come out on top in even the harshest conditions. You can take Prime's laser away, and proceed to no-damage the rest of the fight effortlessly if you know what you're doing. You can bullfight Spasmatism with a melee weapon and be just fine. Destroyer, however, no matter what you do, no matter how good you think you are, cannot be reliably dodged. Lasers move faster than you can react, and are fired at you from a random array. There's nothing you can do but just take the damage and hope you don't take more.

It's luck based, and the one fight where defense is absolutely, 100% critical, because the elitist "don't get hit" advice does not apply here.

 

[Thee Pie Man]

Yes, actually, I DO use strategy for everything else. I don't like blowing horns or anything, but I'm that one dude who beat Plantera with a copper shortsword. I got quite a reputation for challenge videos. I'm frequently compared to yrimir.

Point is, I know my Terraria. I've got my credentials, I know every anemy AI inside and out, and most of them can indeed be avoided consistently and you can do something to come out on top in even the harshest conditions. You can take Prime's laser away, and proceed to no-damage the rest of the fight effortlessly if you know what you're doing. You can bullfight Spasmatism with a melee weapon and be just fine. Destroyer, however, no matter what you do, no matter how good you think you are, cannot be reliably dodged. Lasers move faster than you can react, and are fired at you from a random array. There's nothing you can do but just take the damage and hope you don't take more.

It's luck based, and the one fight where defense is absolutely, 100% critical, because the elitist "don't get hit" advice does not apply here.

Well it does because you can easily track it's movement now; which is something I mentioned earlier. It's on the map and with timing you can pick up in a few hours you can dodge the destroyer itself easily; the lasers? Sure you may not dodge every single one but I wouldn't expect anyone to and even as an expert you should take some damage. Is that what this is really about though- you not being able to 100% health the boss? That's a pretty silly reason to nerf it if so. Taking damage is part of the game and it shouldn't be nerfed just because people don't want to try harder. This boss is unique in the sense that those little turrets attack you and I find them to make the fight less boring because all I'd be doing is dodging the destroyer otherwise and that really would be dreadful. The fight is perfectly balanced in my opinion and this is going to be my last post because I've made my point time and again; the only thing stopping someone from beating the Destroyer is themselves; not the Monster itself. You can dodge it consistently every single time; if you don't then it's your fault.

 

[Snickerbobble]

Like I said earlier, I've beaten it with less armor than you. If you don't want to adapt your playstyle that's fine, but that doesn't mean everyone should lose a challenge just because you refuse to play differently. <w>
It's really easy to dodge his head, insanely easy, you check the map after about five seconds of him passing by and he'll be making another pass. It's really simple; if there's too many probes, kill them first. They only spawn as he gets lower health which make them easy to manage. You just have to think outside the box..

If it was just his head, yeah, that would be easy to avoid. But see my above post as I've just responded to this.

Also, think outside the box? With these crazy upped stats, this battle encourages you to fight inside the box. I've killed Destroyer with a Light's Bane before. Box too OP.

 

[General Milky]

Well it does because you can easily track it's movement now; which is something I mentioned earlier. It's on the map and with timing you can pick up in a few hours you can dodge the destroyer itself easily; the lasers? Sure you may not dodge every single one but I wouldn't expect anyone to and even as an expert you should take some damage. Is that what this is really about though- you not being able to 100% health the boss? That's a pretty silly reason to nerf it if so. Taking damage is part of the game and it shouldn't be nerfed just because people don't want to try harder. This boss is unique in the sense that those little turrets attack you and I find them to make the fight less boring because all I'd be doing is dodging the destroyer otherwise and that really would be dreadful. The fight is perfectly balanced in my opinion and this is going to be my last post because I've made my point time and again; the only thing stopping someone from beating the Destroyer is themselves; not the Monster itself. You can dodge it consistently every single time; if you don't then it's your fault.

And here we have a wonderful example of someone backpedalling and digging a hole, clinging to every little detail they can to be right.

Look, it's simple reasoning. I don't see any way to refute it. Look at this handy little chart I'm going to put below, and pick out the flaw;

Expert mode. It's a mode made for experts, and it's really tough. WHY is it tough? Well, it's because...

-it punishes you really hard for getting hit.

- it makes it easier to get hit with remixed boss AI's

-getting hit will result in death.

Thus, from a design standpoint, we can conclude that what seperates expert players from those that are not experts, is their ability to avoid damage, outlast the enemies and preserve themselves to victory. It asks that they not just outgear encounters, but outsmart them. Outperform them. Hit it til it dies, don't get hit.

EoC can be dodged. Even in Expert mode where it goes crazy, you can juke it. Skeletron can be dodged, even with his huge speed buff and projectiles. You take damage sure, that's part of it, but when you take damage it's your fault. You didn't move right, or were caught unprepared. You can kite creepers, you can evade Spasmatism and hell, even retinazer.

You can not, not matter what you do, ever hope to dodge Destroyer lasers. You're deluded if you think that avoiding them is any good move on your part, because they fire in random directions at mach 2.

And THAT'S where it's unfair. You can and WILL take 50-70 damage from lasers at total random, with no resistance on the player's part to prevent it. That laser either hits you, or it doesn't. Flip a coin, son, because that's what it's boiling down to in a fair fight.

Thus, the only strategy is to mitigate the lasers the best you possibly can. You WILL get hit, all you can do is make it so you can take MORE hits before you eventually croak, and all you can do is make it die before you do.

Now, this is where players will tell me "Then don't fight it fair!" "Make a complex arena!" "Oh, just wire up a bunch of heart statues and make a box in the sky, it's easy!" Well you know what? You should NEVER need to exploit the system THAT BADLY to beat a boss. An arena, sure. Make that. Exploiting the hell out of mindnumbing grinds through many worlds to wire up a Lazarus Pit? Get out. Every other expert boss can be beaten on fair terms, and Destroyer can too, but it's not by skill you can do it.

 

[W1K]

It isn't, check a dictionary.

I don't see any entry for "getting a last prism that early".

 

[ThatGuyYouKnowSometimes]

The crawlipede does around 250 damage with 50 defense, why shouldn't that be nerfed? In comparison, all the other towers are quite easy to beat on expert, but the solar one kicks easily. I think it should stay that way because it is accurate punishment if the head of the thing manages to hit you.

EDIT: that last sentence was meant towards the Destoyer; the rest was the analogy

 

[W1K]

The crawlipede does around 250 damage with 50 defense, why shouldn't that be nerfed? In comparison, all the other towers are quite easy to beat on expert, but the solar one kicks easily. I think it should stay that way because it is accurate punishment if the head of the thing manages to hit you.

Srollers used to deal 800 damage. Died from Paladin Shield multiple times because of it. I miss pre-fix Srollers.

Also, on a serious note, Crawlipedes are optional to kill and can be easily avoided. As long as you don't fly, 90% of the time they are going to leave you in peace.

 

[Thee Pie Man]

And here we have a wonderful example of someone backpedalling and digging a hole, clinging to every little detail they can to be right.

Look, it's simple reasoning. I don't see any way to refute it. Look at this handy little chart I'm going to put below, and pick out the flaw;

Expert mode. It's a mode made for experts, and it's really tough. WHY is it tough? Well, it's because...

-it punishes you really hard for getting hit.

- it makes it easier to get hit with remixed boss AI's

-getting hit will result in death.

Thus, from a design standpoint, we can conclude that what seperates expert players from those that are not experts, is their ability to avoid damage, outlast the enemies and preserve themselves to victory. It asks that they not just outgear encounters, but outsmart them. Outperform them. Hit it til it dies, don't get hit.

EoC can be dodged. Even in Expert mode where it goes crazy, you can juke it. Skeletron can be dodged, even with his huge speed buff and projectiles. You take damage sure, that's part of it, but when you take damage it's your fault. You didn't move right, or were caught unprepared. You can kite creepers, you can evade Spasmatism and hell, even retinazer.

You can not, not matter what you do, ever hope to dodge Destroyer lasers. You're deluded if you think that avoiding them is any good move on your part, because they fire in random directions at mach 2.

And THAT'S where it's unfair. You can and WILL take 50-70 damage from lasers at total random, with no resistance on the player's part to prevent it. That laser either hits you, or it doesn't. Flip a coin, son, because that's what it's boiling down to in a fair fight.

Thus, the only strategy is to mitigate the lasers the best you possibly can. You WILL get hit, all you can do is make it so you can take MORE hits before you eventually croak, and all you can do is make it die before you do.

Now, this is where players will tell me "Then don't fight it fair!" "Make a complex arena!" "Oh, just wire up a bunch of heart statues and make a box in the sky, it's easy!" Well you know what? You should NEVER need to exploit the system THAT BADLY to beat a boss. An arena, sure. Make that. Exploiting the hell out of mindnumbing grinds through many worlds to wire up a Lazarus Pit? Get out. Every other expert boss can be beaten on fair terms, and Destroyer can too, but it's not by skill you can do it.

Edited for my stupidity: Yeah, you know what? Making an arena, wiring up heart statues, and making a box is an exploit; it's a strategy of using what you have to your advantage otherwise it wouldn't be in this game and the statues would have no function other than decoration which would be fine because you want to know something? I didn't go in the sky, I didn't use heart statues and my Arena is small and not a closed box, the lasers hit me and you know what it made me do? Made be play the game; I went and fished for potion ingredients, I went and gathered mushrooms, I learned more about the game and experienced more that I didn't even bother with because I didn't need to care; I had never used a potion in normal mode and had never needed a buff of any kind and I'm a melee user; this mode- expert mode changed all that for me and I'm having some of the most fun being killed over and over than I've ever had playing the game in normal mode; which again if Expert Mode is too hard, there's no reason anyone can't stay in normal mode other than to collect all the items which anyone can go and buy from other players or if they really want to. Set some stupid challenge like beating normal destroyer x-amount of times with some low tier junk and then edit it in as a reward, that would be perfectly fine too if people want to do that. I'm not back pedaling anywhere in my statements; what you're confusing is the topic's main point and what you actually want. Is it about nerfing Expert Destroyer? Yes, are we talking about nerfs when we are talking about the laser probes? Yes, but all of my arguments before you even came to check out the topic have been about how the head is easy to dodge and that, that was the main problem with the original post. It had nothing to do with the lasers nor did I see any mention of them looking back on it the original post. I never used any farm for anything I've obtained except for the ice key back before they patched it to molds, and I was doing it manually with Meteor heads because it's just easy to kill those heads vs the ice mobs that have unpredictable AI's (As far as a Meteor head will always have aggro on you.)

Edited for my stupidity: If you call those things exploits then by all means do so; a person should be able to use whatever resources are available to beat the bosses accordingly. A heart statue that's rare and was added to the game by the developers to grant hearts every so often with an even lower rate now that they reduced how many wire inputs the statue reads? Is an exploit; however by the very definition it's like a torch in a cave. You're exploiting every time you use a torch to light up an area. I made potions; I have gold armor and a few accessories from hard/prehard including wings, I had a campfire and Heart Lantern buff and max 400 HP (Given it was a fresh account run on Expert) Yeah it hit me, but if you avoid the head you'll regenerate more health than the probes do in damage; on top of which they themselves drop hearts and if you focus on the probes that pop out of the destroyer eventually there are very few. I used very few exploits to beat it and I think those were perfectly fine. If you use armor you're using exploits as well..I mean that's a resource you're given; by that logic nothing is fair in the game.

 

[QuackersDelta]

The crawlipede does around 250 damage with 50 defense, why shouldn't that be nerfed? In comparison, all the other towers are quite easy to beat on expert, but the solar one kicks easily. I think it should stay that way because it is accurate punishment if the head of the thing manages to hit you.

Because the Crawlipede doesn't have health in the hundred thousands,nor is it a necessary thing to kill so if it goes away you're ok.

 

[ThatGuyYouKnowSometimes]

Yeah. But then you have to deal with everything else. This aside, expert mode is made to be punishing. The Destoyer head is fair because it slaps your wrists hard if you don't move quickly. So be more like Twinkletoes!

Don't hurt me for making a reference. Please?

 

[W1K]

If you call those exploits clearly you have a different definition of exploit than the rest of the world. An exploit is something unintended for use and can be used to make results the programmers had not intended.
Slime saddle on the dummy? That's an exploit. A heart statue that's rare and was added to the game by the developers to grant hearts every so often with an even lower rate now that they reduced how many wire inputs the statue reads? That's not an exploit. Use some common sense.

By definition, exploit means taking advantage of the game's mechanics, which is exactly what Milky is point towards. By a certain degree, everything is exploiting, in which "fair" fight essentially means you are intentionally limiting yourself to what you believe to be the way the fight is meant to be taken. What's exploiting or not is not a fact, it's an opinion, you can even argue flying up high in the sky to avoid the head is exploiting the fact Destroyer's affected by gravity.

 

[Thee Pie Man]

By definition, exploit means taking advantage of the game's mechanics, which is exactly what Milky is point towards. By a certain degree, everything is exploiting, in which "fair" fight essentially means you are intentionally limiting yourself to what you believe to be the way the fight is meant to be taken. What's exploiting or not is not a fact, it's an opinion.

Oh wow, now I feel like a fool for using it incorrectly as well. It's taking advantage of a resource if we want to get all technical.. I guess what we're talking about is more like- difficulty vs practicality I guess. But if the definition is using resources to their most then I see no real problem at doing it however you want. As you said it's an opinion you're correct.

Thanks for the enlightenment.

I guess Slime Saddle is more of a glitch thing then/bug.

Edited my debate/argument appropriately for my newly found knowledge.

 

[W1K]

Now where I see the arguments colliding, is the fact Destroyer, no matter expert mode or not, has a certain design in which your dodging skills are limited by its amount of probes circling you and barrages of unavoidable lasers constantly being thrown at you, where facetanking is literally the only way to go (and the 1.2 buff made it even more ridiculous).
I perfectly understand expert mode is meant for people who know how the game works and want an extra challenge to enjoy the experience even more, but when it comes to Destroyer, the laser bull not only makes it a pain to deal with on expert, but normal too. It's a boss that clearly rewards the high defense builds and it hits even more on expert where high defense builds are made less effective by the extra damage.
Let's be honest for a second, avoiding the head is easy as hell, everything else is what's a pain to deal with. I don't personally agree designing a boss that is meant to hit you no matter what you do is a great design choice, but that's mainly my opinion.

The only reason I call expert mode destroyer "legit" is the fact I take arenas to be part of every boss fight, as an "expert" you will know exactly how to deal with a boss and know the proper landscape you need to take it on for as many advantages as you can. As af act, you can easily build an arena, high in the sky just about enough so that gravity will slow Destroyer down without despawning, with covers you can use to avoid lasers when they are being thrown at you.
Now that expert mode exists, I take the modes as designed for people who have experienced the game and people who haven't yet, as such the expert people will know how to make their own life as easy as possible and as a result there will be harder trucks thrown to make it still feel challenging, while people who don't will start a mech boss fight on a flat map and crappy uneffective gears because they have no idea what they're doing (and must not be penalized for such as they are simply discovering what the game has to offer).
Note that I also dislike Destroyer in general as new players will be streamrolled by it if they don't know what they are going to deal with, as it's a stupidly gear dependent boss unlike the other mechs.

 

[General Milky]

Yeah, you know what? Making an arena, wiring up heart statues, and making a box is not an exploit; it's a strategy otherwise it wouldn't be in this game and the statues would have no function other than decoration which would be fine because you want to know something?

Yeah, except where the part where it takes hours and hours to get heart statues, and making a box is a cheese strat. Sure, it's legit, but needing to do that to beat Destroyer while no such thing is necessary for the others makes Destroyer the odd one out. You know, overpowered.

I didn't go in the sky, I didn't use heart statues and my Arena is small and not a closed box, the lasers hit me and you know what it made me do? Made be play the game; I went and fished for potion ingredients, I went and gathered mushrooms, I learned more about the game and experienced more that I didn't even bother with because I didn't need to care; I had never used a potion in normal mode and had never needed a buff of any kind and I'm a melee user; this mode- expert mode changed all that for me and I'm having some of the most fun being killed over and over than I've ever had playing the game in normal mode; which again if Expert Mode is too hard, there's no reason anyone can't stay in normal mode other than to collect all the items which anyone can go and buy from other players or if they really want to.

Yeah? That's why Expert mode is enjoyable. But getting lucky with heavy RNG that your life hinges on is not "learning to play." Making potions is a staple all throughout the mode, but that doesn't have anything to do with Destroyer being unreasonably hard to avoid with heavy, heavy punishment for being hit, now does it?

Set some stupid challenge like beating normal destroyer x-amount of times with some low tier junk and then edit it in as a reward, that would be perfectly fine too if people want to do that. I'm not back pedaling anywhere in my statements; what you're confusing is the topic's main point and what you actually want. Is it about nerfing Expert Destroyer? Yes, are we talking about nerfs when we are talking about the laser probes? Yes, but all of my arguments before you even came to check out the topic have been about how the head is easy to dodge and that, that was the main problem with the original post. It had nothing to do with the lasers nor did I see any mention of them looking back on it the original post. I never used any farm for anything I've obtained except for the ice key back before they patched it to molds, and I was doing it manually with Meteor heads because it's just easy to kill those heads vs the ice mobs that have unpredictable AI's (As far as a Meteor head will always have aggro on you.)

I am aware what the original posts are about. But elitism runs rampant in this forum now, and people are so quick to jump on the "You're just BAD" and "It's EXPERT for a reason!" argument which does not excuse every little thing. The head of the destroyer is easy to avoid, sure. Everything else though? THAT'S the problem. I was getting slaughtered not because the head was hitting me, I was getting slaughtered because everything else was hitting me with nothing I could do about it and one time, I just got lucky. Destroyer could do with a nerf, but not for the head. Destroyer IS a load of bull.

Edited for my stupidity: If you call those things exploits then by all means do so; a person should be able to use whatever resources are available to beat the bosses accordingly. A heart statue that's rare and was added to the game by the developers to grant hearts every so often with an even lower rate now that they reduced how many wire inputs the statue reads? Is an exploit; however by the very definition it's like a torch in a cave. You're exploiting every time you use a torch to light up an area. I made potions; I have gold armor and a few accessories from hard/prehard including wings, I had a campfire and Heart Lantern buff and max 400 HP (Given it was a fresh account run on Expert) Yeah it hit me, but if you avoid the head you'll regenerate more health than the probes do in damage; on top of which they themselves drop hearts and if you focus on the probes that pop out of the destroyer eventually there are very few. I used very few exploits to beat it and I think those were perfectly fine. If you use armor you're using exploits as well..I mean that's a resource you're given; by that logic nothing is fair in the game.

They ARE exploits, because it takes hours and hours to make the heart factories youtube videos often showcase. That is not okay to encourage in normal gameplay. Know what else is fair game? Taking an endgame character into your expert world and wrecking Destroyer that way, but we can all agree that it doesn't call for a buff to the boss in doing so.

Standing on a spike for invulnerability is cheap. It's an exploit. Combing world after world, hour after hour for a battery of heart statues is nothing anyone should ever be expected to do. Making a skybox is more of a grey ground, but it's not intuitive and it isn't at all fun to force a player into a strategy that takes all the "fight" from "boss fight" and instead make it a shooting gallery.

Some platforms, campfires, heart lanterns, maybe even a minecart track. That's what it takes in every fight. It's all it should take, because it encourages you to move around, and make decisions on your movement. It encourages technical skill in aiming and dodging. It's the expert way to play. Standing on a spike in a safe little box isn't expert at all.

 

[Xyifer12]

I don't see any entry for "getting a last prism that early".

Not only is there no entry, no definition fits.

 

[MegaMage314 🌳]

Not only is there no entry, no definition fits.

If a strategy for beating a boss requires that you have already beaten said boss, it's cheating.

 

[W1K]

Not only is there no entry, no definition fits.

Then why are you quoting my post where I compare getting an end-game gun to a early-hardmode knife-fight as something that's not meant to happen as much as hacking the game and ask me to look up for a definition on a dictionary that clearly has none.

 

[Thee Pie Man]

Snip.

I did edit it because I hadn't realized what the word exploit truly meant because I always associated it with negative things; when really it applies to anything that is concluded as a resource.
Yeah, and it wasn't RNG... It works every time <_> I dodge the head, kill the probes profit. I just hop up and down.

If you're telling me that due to your own want to make the boss harder you don't want to use what's already in the game to make the fight easier to your advantage you're free to do so. But you shouldn't say because you're unwilling to use everything you can to your benefit that the boss has to have an overhaul. That's not fair to the rest of the community that enjoys the fight. I never fell below half health fighting it, if you do and it's because of your lack of other things that help you overcome it as a whole? That's all on you, not the boss.

I'm not telling you to get good, and I'm certainly not saying that I'm good or bad because I use platforms in my fight, and a few other things that are made available to me through work and effort on my part. As I said previously I never have used a little box or a spike unfixed bug to get out of taking damage, or taking minimal damage. I'm actually really against doing that; you should have saw the argument/debate I got into, because someone didn't want those kind of things removed because it ruined their farming strategies for frostmoon and etc. I thought that was cheesing it to the extreme and didn't like it one bit.

You're just refusing to use things that are helpful which is fine, but maybe instead of blaming the boss you should just find a better balance instead of holding the new mode to normal modes standards? You're perfectly allowed to keep your opinion on this, go for it, I don't mind. But I'm not any less expert for using platforms as either of us are for using armor and potions and the like.

Spoiler: arena

Spoiler: Just incase you wanted to see my statues, I had a crab one here for testing some things, never use for anything cheesing though; was just curious if Banners came from them.

As you can see it's not a small box, it's just a moderately sized one on the surface floor of my world, has some campfires and a bunch of flags around it and a singular heart lantern that's currently obscured but certainly there. (I just wanted to see how effective the buff of the Star Lantern was and I got lazy and left it there.)
This is my "Arena/Grinder" I suppose.. it's tiny and only allows so much headway, I like it though. all those graves albeit the pirate one when I first started hardmode were from the destroyer.. lmao (Obviously I've come a long way given the items I currently have in my hotbar.)
That stuff and Gold armor and a few accessories is all I needed to defeat the destroyer on Expert Mode; I downgraded from Platinum to make it more challenging to me. <_>

 

[Suweeka]

Not only is there no entry, no definition fits.

So you're saying I should kill the destroyer, then any remaining mech bosses, then plantera, then golem, then the cultist, then the pillars, and then moonlord (possibly multiple times), so I can defeat the destroyer?