Game Mechanics Fledgling Wings, a Balanced Proposal.

[Yreorel]

Fledgling Wings aren’t really that powerful on their own, they are very slow and have AccRunSpeed. About this “power-up upon obtaining”, why are we not concentrating on stuff like Hermes Boots, which literally doubles your horizontal speed, or grappling hooks, which allow you to go basically anywhere in caves, give you speed in any direction thanks to grapple canceling, and can be used to stop fall damage if timed correctly?

Fledgling Wings uses wings logic when determining air acceleration - which means that player velocity isn't mega-gimped. It's a lot better than you think. Try holding RIGHT when jumping off a floating island with and without Fledgling Wings and you will see the difference.

I mean, for the sake of reinforcing my point, what early-game movement accessory compares to Flying Carpet then (if it's a bad item)? Let's say you had a choice of any one, early-game, pre-Boss, Overworld tier, movement accessory as a starting item, including the option of Flying Carpet, what item would you choose over it?

Sandstorm in a Bottle
Rocket Boots
Even Cloud in a Bottle is unironically more useful than garbage Carpet, which is literally only better than Umbrella. Horizontal mobility is absolute garbage pre-WoF and Hermes covers all of your Horizontal Mobility needs anyway.
Carpet doesn't help you dodge zombies, it doesn't increase your airtime, and it's finicky to use.

My only response to this would be, what were players doing differently in 1.3.5 no-hit runs?

Using Featherfall Potions as usual. 1.3.5 Expert is easier to dodge than 1.4 For the Worthy. Even in 1.4 you don't need Fledgling Wings, they just make the game less cancerous to play.

The Player Character has overall been buffed in every conceivable way in 1.4+, with even more buffs on the way; I can assure you they'll be just fine if rebalanced Fledgling Wings just-so-happen not to spawn in their World.

Fledgling Wings are essential especially with heavily powercreeped bosses.

Remember that the ONLY other option for mass-dodging is Shield of Cthulhu, which is a MELEE item.

Not quite the case, at it's best, Gravity Potion rivals pre-nerfed Black Spot.

Pre-Nerfed Black Spot far surpasses Gravity Potion, because you don't have to deal with a very vulnerable velocity change upon hitting sky limit.

Just you're aware, some of the newer Mounts that are locked behind progression have speed in the top 40's or so, which means you're already shifting balance in a negative way.

Flying Carpet is literally so horrid to use that having top speeds of 40+ is essentially required to balance the absurd amount of nonsense that this item has attached to it.
On top of that, no pre-Hardmode boss requires horizontal mobility of 40+ except Wall of Flesh and maybe Eye. Hell, it doesn't even make dodging most bosses easier. Most pre-Hardmode bosses are about controlling zoning and vertical mobility. Moving fast in 1 direction at anything less than Unicorn speeds is literally the most useless feature pre-Hardmode.

Even if Flying Carpet has 40mph I still won't use it in any fight except EoC and WoF.

Also, this is the current Desert Loot Pool.

• Ancient Chisel
• S. Fishing Rod
• Dune Boots
• T. Zapper
• Bast Statue
• Snake Flute
• Magic Conch

------------------------

• S.Storm in a Bottle
• Flying Carpet
• any other Pyramid Loot

That's about 12+ possible items from a single Crate, yet another shift in balance for the worst.


Player taste is sometimes considered in these matters, but not always.

Go split the crates between Pyramid and Underground Desert if you need to.

Dreadnautilus

Dreadnautilus is meant to be a cheese boss with OP weapon. This is because cheesing Dreadnautilus is basically impossible with Summoner gear in MMFTW. Also, that boss is a pain to dodge.

Smash-n-Grab Space item Queen Slime's Mount is a pretty long run

Leaf Wings are cheap and good.

question of Fledgling Wing's potential was brought up repeatedly, you can literally get them in the first 10-15 mins of playtime (1, 3 & 5 "see Metas)

You can but you lose time by doing that. Also, Sky Chests are locked in MMFTW.

 

[Dreadnautilus5000🌳]

Sandstorm in a Bottle
Rocket Boots
Even Cloud in a Bottle is unironically more useful than garbage Carpet, which is literally only better than Umbrella. Horizontal mobility is absolute garbage pre-WoF and Hermes covers all of your Horizontal Mobility needs anyway.
Carpet doesn't help you dodge zombies, it doesn't increase your airtime, and it's finicky to use.

“Doesn’t increase your airtime”?! It literally does, by a whopping 4 seconds. And Hermes Boots can’t run in the air, nor benefit from movement speed bonuses. And don’t call an item “garbage” based on dodging zombies. What if I need to get over a giant pool of water with piranhas in it? Is Cloud in a Bottle suddenly garbage? Also don’t forget that Carpet isn’t only for moving horizontally. You can jump and stay still in the air for 4 entire seconds, which is plenty of time to eliminate enemies below you.

Fledgling Wings are essential especially with heavily powercreeped bosses.

Remember that the ONLY other option for mass-dodging is Shield of Cthulhu, which is a MELEE item.

Can you explain how Fledgling Wings are so essential for boss fights? What is it in particular? And SoC is not a melee item, by that logic pickaxes are also melee so other classes are forced to not mine. Classlocking is the stupidest thing ever, you are harming yourself big time and I don’t want to bring it up again.

Pre-Nerfed Black Spot far surpasses Gravity Potion, because you don't have to deal with a very vulnerable velocity change upon hitting sky limit.

I thought you were claiming that horizontal mobility was garbage?

Flying Carpet is literally so horrid to use that having top speeds of 40+ is essentially required to balance the absurd amount of nonsense that this item has attached to it.
On top of that, no pre-Hardmode boss requires horizontal mobility of 40+ except Wall of Flesh and maybe Eye. Hell, it doesn't even make dodging most bosses easier. Most pre-Hardmode bosses are about controlling zoning and vertical mobility. Moving fast in 1 direction at anything less than Unicorn speeds is literally the most useless feature pre-Hardmode.

Even if Flying Carpet has 40mph I still won't use it in any fight except EoC and WoF.

30 second and 40 MPH Carpet would be insanely good, especially in Hardmode and when we take into account movement speed bonuses. 3 seconds is the flight time of endgame wings, with only a few more seconds in the case of Betsy’s Wings hovering, which by the way is really good with Insignia. And remember this item is potentially one of the earliest accessories you obtain, you should not be able to go over 40 mph in the air at the start of the game.

You can but you lose time by doing that. Also, Sky Chests are locked in MMFTW.

FTW is literally a joke secret seed which should be not considered in actual balance. This would be like claiming all PHM bosses are easy because you can have Jetpack really early on in celebrationmk10, or claiming wood weapons are entirely useless because you play Not the Bees. Secret seeds are not the main way to play the game, and FTW is no different.

 

[Yreorel]

“Doesn’t increase your airtime”?! It literally does, by a whopping 4 seconds. And Hermes Boots can’t run in the air, nor benefit from movement speed bonuses. And don’t call an item “garbage” based on dodging zombies.

It takes up a valuable accessory slot for you to be locked in the X-axis. Cloud + Boot is already 2 inv slots, feral + pygmy are 2 more, and for the last two I honestly prefer Chisel and Wings if possible. If it's pre-Tinkerer don't forget the Horseshoe. Carpet is something I replace basically instantly the moment I run out of slots in my build, because the rest actually helps me kill bosses/explore faster, and Carpet does...hovering over the ground at walking speed for 4 seconds, which is literally slower than Ivy Whipping across the ceiling.

What if I need to get over a giant pool of water with piranhas in it? Is Cloud in a Bottle suddenly garbage? Also don’t forget that Carpet isn’t only for moving horizontally. You can jump and stay still in the air for 4 entire seconds, which is plenty of time to eliminate enemies below you.

This is Terraria, "eliminating enemies" has a high opportunity cost. In like 90% of cases your hook should be enough to get past anyway, even with just a 10 block bridge (which is stupid easy to build)
Situations like these are so rare anyway that it's honestly not worth the opportunity cost of getting Flying Carpet.
Also, if you think 4 seconds is enough to kill Piranhas, it's only true in lower difficulties.

Can you explain how Fledgling Wings are so essential for boss fights? What is it in particular? And SoC is not a melee item, by that logic pickaxes are also melee so other classes are forced to not mine. Classlocking is the stupidest thing ever, you are harming yourself big time and I don’t want to bring it up again.

SoC is a melee item. It's stupid OP and has a damage type which is coincidentally the one which actually requires such a dodge in Expert difficulty. On top of that, it's very possible to beat MMFTW without SoC on every class EXCEPT melee.

I don't know what is going on with the devs' minds when they made pickaxes melee. They should deal typeless damage like minecarts.

I thought you were claiming that horizontal mobility was garbage?

30 second and 40 MPH Carpet would be insanely good, especially in Hardmode and when we take into account movement speed bonuses. 3 seconds is the flight time of endgame wings, with only a few more seconds in the case of Betsy’s Wings hovering, which by the way is really good with Insignia. And remember this item is potentially one of the earliest accessories you obtain, you should not be able to go over 40 mph in the air at the start of the game.

Read again. It's garbage until WoF.
It's like how Shield is better than Tabi until post-Plantera, when Tabi finally surpasses Shield. It's the exact same concept.
40mph does very little in situations where your vertical mobility is horrid. Especially since it's, you know, locked behind ALL THE JUMPS and ALL THE ROCKET BOOT FUEL. You probably won't even see it activate lategame. Hell, maybe not even midgame.

If Carpet was a mount, 30mph would be fine. It's an iffy item with bad stats, with far superior alternative techs which are also far more reliably-acquired, that takes up an accessory slot, and requires you to use ALL jumps before it activates. It's atrocious.

FTW is literally a joke secret seed which should be not considered in actual balance. This would be like claiming all PHM bosses are easy because you can have Jetpack really early on in celebrationmk10, or claiming wood weapons are entirely useless because you play Not the Bees. Secret seeds are not the main way to play the game, and FTW is no different.

FTW isn't a joke seed. It's the highest difficulty seed.
Even without FTW I won't even bother with Fledgling Wings. They just make Skeletron/Bee easier to fly around with.
Just because you have an accessory does not mean it is efficient to get it. Carpet is barely worth the opportunity cost to take it, Fledgling Wings are literally only decent once you have very little else to do.
Carpet ultimately only looks cool, but doesn't actually help you do anything.

claiming wood weapons are entirely useless because you play Not the Bees

Wood weapons are objectively garbage. In all seeds. The only wood weapon which is somewhat OK is Wooden Bow (only for knockback) and only if you get lucky arrow drops from pots.

I don't even use Wood Weapons in MMFTW, or Master, or Expert or even Normal. Cloud in a Bottle is usually enough for dodging everything.

 

[Dreadnautilus5000🌳]

It takes up a valuable accessory slot for you to be locked in the X-axis. Cloud + Boot is already 2 inv slots, feral + pygmy are 2 more, and for the last two I honestly prefer Chisel and Wings if possible. If it's pre-Tinkerer don't forget the Horseshoe. Carpet is something I replace basically instantly the moment I run out of slots in my build, because the rest actually helps me kill bosses/explore faster, and Carpet does...hovering over the ground at walking speed for 4 seconds, which is literally slower than Ivy Whipping across the ceiling.

Cloud in a Bottle, Boots and Wings is fair, but Pygmy Necklace is locked behind Queen Bee, Feral Claws are only for whips and melee weapons, and Chisel is only used for mining so once you're not mining you can just take it off. And if you already have wings then you won't need the horseshoe. Also that is factually incorrect, Carpet is actually quite a bit faster than walking speed, it's 23 mph versus 15 mph.

This is Terraria, "eliminating enemies" has a high opportunity cost. In like 90% of cases your hook should be enough to get past anyway, even with just a 10 block bridge (which is stupid easy to build)
Situations like these are so rare anyway that it's honestly not worth the opportunity cost of getting Flying Carpet.
Also, if you think 4 seconds is enough to kill Piranhas, it's only true in lower difficulties.

No, eliminating basic enemies takes seconds with good gear and has no opportunity cost, not everyone is trying to speedrun the game. And what weapons are you using that take over 4 seconds to kill a Piranha in Expert/Master.

SoC is a melee item. It's stupid OP and has a damage type which is coincidentally the one which actually requires such a dodge in Expert difficulty. On top of that, it's very possible to beat MMFTW without SoC on every class EXCEPT melee.

I don't know what is going on with the devs' minds when they made pickaxes melee. They should deal typeless damage like minecarts.

Well, perhaps it is a melee item, but why the hell does it matter in the slightest. Classlocking is an entirely player-imposed restriction, the game never ever forces you into a specific class and requires you to only use one damage type. As I've said before, classlocking literally puts you at a disadvantage, especially if you purposely don't use basic items like pickaxes and axes because of a completely arbitrary 5 letter word next to the damage number on the tooltip. And it is certain that hybrid classes achieve way higher DPS than pure classes thanks to minions, whips and mage sidearms. Also, people don't use SoC because they think it is literally required to beat the game. They use it because dashes are really convenient, fast ways to get away or change direction.

Except there is literally no reason to make them deal classless damage since the game doesn't force you to only use items of a certain damage type, and making them deal typeless damage just hurts their ability to deal with bats and such while mining since classless damage can't be increased at all by damage increases.

Also you didn't answer my question, what is it about Fledgling Wings that makes them so essential for FTW Skeletron?

Read again. It's garbage until WoF.
It's like how Shield is better than Tabi until post-Plantera, when Tabi finally surpasses Shield. It's the exact same concept.
40mph does very little in situations where your vertical mobility is horrid. Especially since it's, you know, locked behind ALL THE JUMPS and ALL THE ROCKET BOOT FUEL. You probably won't even see it activate lategame. Hell, maybe not even midgame.

That comparison doesn't make any sense because Tabi is only available post-Plantera. Also idk about you, but I'm not the kinda guy to stack every single double jump in the game, especially since I like to invest more or less equally into damage, mobility and defensive effects.

If Carpet was a mount, 30mph would be fine. It's an iffy item with bad stats, with far superior alternative techs which are also far more reliably-acquired, that takes up an accessory slot, and requires you to use ALL jumps before it activates. It's atrocious.

30 mph wouldn't be too bad, since it's not much more than 23 mph, but 30 seconds is certainly too much. Also Dark Mage's Tome exists, which is a mount that works very similarly. Anyway your suggestion is the equivalent of me deciding that Fledgling Wings was an iffy item with bad stats and suggesting to increase their flight time to 3.15 seconds and their vertical multiplier to 260%, which is basically equivalent to Fishron Wings.

FTW isn't a joke seed. It's the highest difficulty seed.
Even without FTW I won't even bother with Fledgling Wings. They just make Skeletron/Bee easier to fly around with.
Just because you have an accessory does not mean it is efficient to get it. Carpet is barely worth the opportunity cost to take it, Fledgling Wings are literally only decent once you have very little else to do.
Carpet ultimately only looks cool, but doesn't actually help you do anything.

Why isn't FTW a joke seed? You have tons of random changes like bombs dropping from trees, bosses being larger or smaller, and water pools being replaced by lava. And it is literally a secret seed which means it is hidden and not advertised as an actual difficulty option. And it doesn't have any exclusive drops at all nor is available in the Journey mode difficulty slider. You can't convince me FTW is an actual good difficulty option when in it there are certain random enemies that just instakill you through contact damage but projectiles barely do anything in comparison.

Wood weapons are objectively garbage. In all seeds. The only wood weapon which is somewhat OK is Wooden Bow (only for knockback) and only if you get lucky arrow drops from pots.

I don't even use Wood Weapons in MMFTW, or Master, or Expert or even Normal. Cloud in a Bottle is usually enough for dodging everything.

I knew you would say this. You have missed the point by more than regular wood weapons are used for in Not the Bees.

 

[Yreorel]

Cloud in a Bottle, Boots and Wings is fair, but Pygmy Necklace is locked behind Queen Bee, Feral Claws are only for whips and melee weapons, and Chisel is only used for mining so once you're not mining you can just take it off. And if you already have wings then you won't need the horseshoe. Also that is factually incorrect, Carpet is actually quite a bit faster than walking speed, it's 23 mph versus 15 mph.

It's still an RNG drop that does less than Sandstorm in a Bottle. I rather get a 2nd bottle than carpet.

No, eliminating basic enemies takes seconds with good gear and has no opportunity cost, not everyone is trying to speedrun the game. And what weapons are you using that take over 4 seconds to kill a Piranha in Expert/Master.

Finch Staff + Whip
Also, you kill something and get 1 silver per kill? Just ignore the Piranhas. Unless you really can kill them quickly, in which case just jump in and whip them. Time is either 2 seconds or 10 seconds, but never 4.
Either way, carpet is unnecesary.

Well, perhaps it is a melee item, but why the hell does it matter in the slightest. Classlocking is an entirely player-imposed restriction, the game never ever forces you into a specific class and requires you to only use one damage type. As I've said before, classlocking literally puts you at a disadvantage, especially if you purposely don't use basic items like pickaxes and axes because of a completely arbitrary 5 letter word next to the damage number on the tooltip. And it is certain that hybrid classes achieve way higher DPS than pure classes thanks to minions, whips and mage sidearms.

You want to break the game, buy a minishark, make explosive bullets + star cloak and instakill 3 mech bosses or do the stupid lance thing that instakills everything

Also, people don't use SoC because they think it is literally required to beat the game. They use it because dashes are really convenient, fast ways to get away or change direction.

Same with Fledgling Wings. They make the game a lot less clunky to play. I could beat the game without ever using it, but I would hate every moment of preHM.

Except there is literally no reason to make them deal classless damage since the game doesn't force you to only use items of a certain damage type, and making them deal typeless damage just hurts their ability to deal with bats and such while mining since classless damage can't be increased at all by damage increases.

Bombs deal classless lol, so do Minecarts

Also you didn't answer my question, what is it about Fledgling Wings that makes them so essential for FTW Skeletron?

The head is bigger. Due to the increased size of the head, Featherfall/Fledgling is basically mandatory.

That comparison doesn't make any sense because Tabi is only available post-Plantera.

Shield gives free iFrames vs bosses who melee you. Something which essentially disappears post-Plantera.
Honestly, though, Shield could honestly surpass Tabi vs Golem.

Also idk about you, but I'm not the kinda guy to stack every single double jump in the game, especially since I like to invest more or less equally into damage, mobility and defensive effects.

Rocket Boots is a double jump - every last second of it, just so you know. So you have to burn through 3 seconds of Rocket Boots just to activate Carpet.
Damage effects are pretty much Hardmode-only, and by that time you can and should just buy Leaf Wings.

30 mph wouldn't be too bad, since it's not much more than 23 mph, but 30 seconds is certainly too much. Also Dark Mage's Tome exists, which is a mount that works very similarly. Anyway your suggestion is the equivalent of me deciding that Fledgling Wings was an iffy item with bad stats and suggesting to increase their flight time to 3.15 seconds and their vertical multiplier to 260%, which is basically equivalent to Fishron Wings.

Fine, 10 seconds. Or 6. You need to burn all double jumps to use it anyway.

Why isn't FTW a joke seed? You have tons of random changes like bombs dropping from trees, bosses being larger or smaller, and water pools being replaced by lava. And it is literally a secret seed which means it is hidden and not advertised as an actual difficulty option. And it doesn't have any exclusive drops at all nor is available in the Journey mode difficulty slider. You can't convince me FTW is an actual good difficulty option when in it there are certain random enemies that just instakill you through contact damage but projectiles barely do anything in comparison.

It's a good and balanced difficulty seed which can be soloed regardless

 

[Leinfors]

Actually, it was @Leinfors who started this whole symmetry quest, if he doesn't support the idea, or feel like making the adjustment, he should just say so (LoL); I'm sure a number of us were just fine with certain items being the "undisputed champion" pre 1.4, until he and the crew went Super Saiyan to try bringing some form of 'balance' to the game.

Now the symmetry obsession is on us, huh? Yeah, okay Leinfors...

There is definitely no intended symmetry that I am aware of all in regards to Pyramids and Sky Islands. They are entirely unrelated. Any similarity is purely coincidence.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

There is definitely no intended symmetry that I am aware of all in regards to Pyramids and Sky Islands.

I like how you say this, as if to suggest that Terraria wasn't built on hundreds of happy accidents, but sure... why not, right?

They are entirely unrelated. Any similarity is purely coincidence.

I'm sure it is, but I don't want it to be lost on you, as to why quite a few players felt uneasy about Fledgling Wings when their tier placement was changed; even if it was hard to explain exactly why at the time, since 1.4+ was still new. Basically, it's equivalent to getting a guaranteed Flying Carpet in every World Gen, if several Pyramids were guaranteed to spawn.

Keep in mind, you were justifying the balance of the item at the time this discussion came up (very early in fact), I don't want you to confuse an "obsession with symmetry", with me simply holding up a mirror. If still you're ok with how Fledgling's is tiered, even though a direct comparison has been made (coincidence or no), then fine, there's nothing left to discuss; and Sandstorm in a Bottle should indeed be craftable (or fall into the Oasis Crate Loot Pool).