Has Journey's End shifted Terraria too far into removing player freedom?

[smeagolheart]

It doesn't punish you, as has been explained numerous times. All you need to do to dodge penalties is put every group of 3 NPCs at least 25 blocks from each other, a task which requires nothing but 2 seconds of walking...

That's not all also you can't put four or more NPCs within 120 block radius. Also you can't group NPCs that don't like each other. Also you should put NPCs in their preferred biome but not with certain other NPCs...

 

[FibS]

Pumps dont work they delte liquids and the bucket trick only works in a hosted server plus is tedius when we cold just flick a switch.

The bucket split dupe is working just fine for me as we speak in single player.

Sand under cactus could always be mined before 1,4

Add this to the Gamepedia; it isn't listed in its copy of the changelog. I don't remember ever being able to dig out from under cactus.

Endles buckets are hardmode angler quests only.

Water, yes. Lava, no.

 

[Aurora3500]

like your dong now? anyway its a dumb mechanic. And why should we its a block game not a maths game. If i wanted to do math id go to real maths lesson. I build how i want not how someone wants me to build. Bit dumb in a building game dont ya think? Game tells us to be crative but not too creative dont want to hurt peoples felings.

This is just baiting and personal attacks now on a low level, sorry.

Everyone needs to remember to remain respectful even in the heat of a debate.

It is fine to disagree with other view points and to debate them. It is not fine when it starts getting into territory of disrespect and personal attacks against the person. If it gets the point where debating the person is unavoidable, it is time to stop and agree to disagree.

 

[Nicol Bolas]

Explain why they removed the liquid dupe? and endless buckets are hardmode only and require you to grint the boing angler quests. This was a dumb fix and the devs even said it was a feautre but i guess not now.

That's an important point I'd like to address.

The thing about "mechanics" like liquid duplication is that it was never actually a mechanic. It was the result of interactions with various bits of code which, when combined just right, result in duplicating liquid. Calling it an "exploit" implies a value judgment, but the main point is that, from the perspective of the program, it's not really "supposed" to happen.

Because it is built out of a precarious arrangement of code, rather than deliberate design, "removing" it can be incredibly easy. For example, if a programmer were to look at the liquid flowing code and see that the code could be more optimal, they could alter that code. And they would test it to see if they accidentally broke liquid flowing. Maybe they'd have a bunch of test cases to make sure nothing bad happened.

But for whatever reason, something about that change may well have altered the precarious arragment of things needed to make liquid duplication (using the old mechanism) work. This wouldn't be some deliberate design choice by the developers, merely an outgrowth of optimization.

And there is evidence for this. Consider this patch note from 1.4.0.4:

Added a serverconfig setting "slowliquids" that restores the maximum moving liquid/quick settle condition to 1.3.5.3's setting, off by default. Turning this on will decrease the amount of liquid that can move at once, but may reduce lag.

That suggests that they were playing with code optimizations with regard to liquid movement. And that's the exact kind of thing that can inadvertently break things like duplication.

The traditional duplication method using buckets is, essentially, unbreakable. Or at least, not without having each bucket store exactly how much liquid was used to fill the bucket, which would require a substantial upkeep in item-based book-keeping. By contrast, the mechanical duplication methods can be broken much more easily.

So you shouldn't take this change as some kind of personal attack on a playstyle. It's much more likely to just be poking around with some code that caused an exploit to stop working.

Indeed, this sort of thing is exactly what this thread is about: how taking disparate facts and imposing a narrative on them leads to these kinds of conclusions. If you start with a belief that the developers are out to "push older players away with stupid changes to get the new younge[sic] player to pay all over agin[sic]," then any fact you come across becomes viewed through that lens. A change that broke liquid duplication can't be because an optimization changed the way certain code interacted to make a complicated exploit non-functional; no, it must be a part of the developers desire to hurt older players.

This is how conspiracy theories often grow and accumulate "evidence".

 

[Mille Marteaux]

In fairness towards liquid duplication, a little bit of lava fishing hooks you up with these bad boys, which can be crafted into items that spread liquids that you'd usually duplicate. Dry Bomb

We also have these, which don't require any fishing if you'd just rather wait a bit. Dry Rocket

 

[Jostabeere]

That's not all also you can't put four or more NPCs within 120 block radius. Also you can't group NPCs that don't like each other. Also you should put NPCs in their preferred biome but not with certain other NPCs...

This is still not true. You can put more than 4 NPCs closer than 120 tiles together. It will reduce their happiness by 1.04. If you have them in their biome and with people they do not dislike, the bounses counter each other resulting in no negative effects. base Happiness is 100 I assume.
Set an NPC in loved biome: 100 * 0,9 = 90. Set an NPC with one loved NPC: 90 * 0,9 = 81. Set with another liked NPC: 81 * 0,9 * 1,04 = 75,86.
Every additional NPC gives you a multiplier of 1,04.
If you keep multiplying 75,86 by 1,04 over and over again, you get over the base of 100 after 10 NPCs clogged together.
So if you have a house underground with the Gobline Tinkerer, Mechanic and the Dye Trader without Clothier and the Stylist, you get a penalty on reforging corsts at 10 NPCs.
It is one thing not understanding or caring for the math, which is okay. It is another to claim that math works differently than it does.

 

[Nicol Bolas]

In fairness towards liquid duplication, a little bit of lava fishing hooks you up with these bad boys, which can be crafted into items that spread liquids that you'd usually duplicate. Dry Bomb

We also have these, which don't require any fishing if you'd just rather wait a bit. Dry Rocket

True, but both of those require Hardmode.

 

[Nicol Bolas]

This is still not true. You can put more than 4 NPCs closer than 120 tiles together. It will reduce their happiness by 1.04.

Actually, it won't. Not according to the Wiki, at any rate.

The 120 tile check is for the 90% isolation bonus. The 104% per-NPC penalty is applied only for NPCs within the 25-tile area.

The rule basically works like this: NPCs get the isolation bonus if there's at most one other NPC nearby and no more than 3 total other NPCs farther away (so 4 in a 120 block radius). NPCs get a crowding penalty if there are more than 2 NPCs nearby (25-block radius).

So in your example of the GT, Mechanic, and Dye Trader in the Underground, here's how the GT's happiness works out:

1. GT likes (not loves) the Underground, so 95%.
2. GT loves the Mechanic, so 90%.
3. GT likes the Dye Trader, so 95%.
4. GT is not isolated (more than 1 NPC within 25 blocks), so no isolation bonus.
5. GT is not crowded (only two NPCs within 25 blocks), so no crowding penalty.

In total, that's 81.2%, which rounds down to 80% happiness.

At that happiness, it takes 6 more NPCs within 25 blocks before he gets to over 100% happiness.

Note that the only way to max out the GT's happiness is to be Underground, with the Mechanic and nobody else within 25 blocks, and with no more than 2 other NPCs within 120 blocks. Adding the Dye Trader near the GT adds 95%, but it loses the 90% isolation bonus, so it's overall a loss.

 

[smeagolheart]

This is still not true. You can put more than 4 NPCs closer than 120 tiles together. It will reduce their happiness by 1.04. If you have them in their biome and with people they do not dislike, the bounses counter each other resulting in no negative effects. base Happiness is 100 I assume.
Set an NPC in loved biome: 100 * 0,9 = 90. Set an NPC with one loved NPC: 90 * 0,9 = 81. Set with another liked NPC: 81 * 0,9 * 1,04 = 75,86.
Every additional NPC gives you a multiplier of 1,04.
If you keep multiplying 75,86 by 1,04 over and over again, you get over the base of 100 after 10 NPCs clogged together.
So if you have a house underground with the Gobline Tinkerer, Mechanic and the Dye Trader without Clothier and the Stylist, you get a penalty on reforging corsts at 10 NPCs.
It is one thing not understanding or caring for the math, which is okay. It is another to claim that math works differently than it does.

Appreciate the somewhat concrete example. That's something we can look at. So if you scour the list of NPC likes and dislikes (biomes, other NPCs) and can find the right combination that doesn't hate each other and the biome then that might work maybe. At any rate this is needlessly complicated, not 'fun'.

Paying more than the discounted rate is a type of penalty in itself wouldn't you say? Why throw away money.

 

[Jostabeere]

At that happiness, it takes 6 more NPCs within 25 blocks before he gets to over 100% happiness.

If this is the correct math, good. I was wrong.
It still tells you that the argument: "You cannot have more than 2 together" which is clearly wrong.

Appreciate the somewhat concrete example. That's something we can look at. So if you scour the list of NPC likes and dislikes (biomes, other NPCs) and can find the right combination that doesn't hate each other and the biome then that might work maybe. At any rate this is needlessly complicated, not 'fun'.

Paying more than the discounted rate is a type of penalty in itself wouldn't you say? Why throw away money.

Fun is relative. You simply don't enjoy it while others do.
As said over and over again, if you want a discount, you do something for it.
You can always boot up an editor and cheat yourself the prefixes if you don't want to play the game and do something within the game.

 

[Zerobillion]

That's not all also you can't put four or more NPCs within 120 block radius.

Not even touching this one, I already explained that you only get a bonus for following this, but receive no penalty for ignoring it.

Also you should put NPCs in their preferred biome but not with certain other NPCs...

You're really trying to make this sound worse than it really is. Every NPC has one biome they don't like and one they do, put them literally anywhere else and they will be at least neutral. Working around the biome rule is trivial, in fact the only two NPCs who dislike the forest are the dye trader and the painter, both of which sell nothing but vanity items. So any NPC can be put right at world spawn with no penalty for the biome rule.

Speaking of which, there are a good chunk of NPCs who sell only vanity items, things you only really need to buy once, or nothing at all. It's not like you need to minmax the happiness of every single NPC.

You don't really need to care about the Guide, clothier, party girl, painter, dye trader, angler, etc...
You should only really be focusing on NPCs like the Goblin tinkerer. I mean how much do you need to buy from every NPC that it becomes a huge problem if every one isn't at least neutral? Something which is very easy to achieve?

Also you can't group NPCs that don't like each other.

Pretty much the same deal here, out of the 25 town NPCs in the game each one only dislikes 1 or 2 people... it isn't nearly as big of an issue as you make it out to be. You could close your eyes and randomly assign your NPCs to houses and you will only rarely end up with people that don't like each other.

Paying more than the discounted rate is a type of penalty in itself wouldn't you say?

No, I wouldn't say that at all. Paying at a 100% rate, the default rate that you would be paying if the happiness mechanic didn't exist at all, is by definition not a penalty. Saying it is a penalty is entirely subjective. That's like saying the game penalizes you for using magic items because you consider their effectiveness less than default.

 

[Nemo]

To be frank, I think if they removed the negative effects like price increases, people wouldn't be bothered so much - like the torch luck situation.

 

[YourLocalTerrarian]

There is a broad narrative going around the community about JE. Specifically, the coherent version of it seems to go something like this.

Various mechanics added to the game force the player to play along certain lines/remove things that players could use to express themselves in the gameplay. Essentially, the developers want to largely dictate how players play the game. This is antithetical to the nature of Terraria as a game and thus should be modified or removed.

Now before we get started, I want to make this perfectly clear: Terraria is not, and never has been, a pure sandbox experience. Every version of Terraria has had some form of gated progression, of expected/enforced ways of doing certain things, without which you aren't (without exploits) able to get certain things or activate certain features. Terraria is a hybrid sandbox/Metroidvania, and it has been that way since the very beginning. So you cannot argue solely from the perspective of "it's a sandbox game, so I should be able to do whatever I want".

Thus, the meaningful argument is not that JE has made Terraria something that it isn't. It would be that JE has spoiled the balance, shifting too far in one direction.

Narratives like this can be a bit like conspiracy theories. Namely, that knowing the conclusion of a narrative can encourage you to recontextualize things you would have ignored in a way that fits within the narrative, which makes the narrative seem more likely to be true. This happens while simultaneously ignoring any evidence that doesn't fit the narrative.

So I would like to explore this narrative and the evidence for it.

The likely genesis of this narrative is also its strongest piece of evidence:

NPC Happiness

The Happiness mechanic is not just overly controlling; it was initially presented to the community as controlling:



It doesn't get more lead-pipe evidence than that, does it?

The two mechanics (NPC happiness and Pylon teleportation) work together, but it's clear that they don't really have to. Pylons could easily be separated from happiness. After all, we already have NPC items that are only sold in specific biomes, so adding Pylons to that list isn't particularly special. And activating Pylons isn't even part of NPC happiness; the two NPCs needed to activate them don't have to be happy to any degree (though the isolation bonus does make it highly likely that they will be so long as one doesn't hate the other).

But it's NPC happiness that actually makes players change their desired behavior. After all, everyone has NPCs that they don't use frequently; every player could just send their worthless NPCs to power Pylon outputs. But they'd still have a bunch of NPCs back in their base "being shoved into tiny cubicles or L shaped tubes."

And we can't have that, because reasons!

So this is a clear mechanic that is imposed upon players by the developer to get players to play in a way that is different from what the player(s) would naturally prefer.

But a single data point shouldn't constitute a narrative. The problem with narratives is that an egregious data point can cause people to evaluate other data points in the context of that narrative. To whit:

Luck

This mechanic is often talked about second in this narrative, particularly in its initially released form. So let's talk about what luck was.

Mechanically, luck is a tool that causes a wide variety of random variables to become more or less likely to happen based on a number of factors. The factor of interest here is the one most under the player's control: torches.

Specifically, being near certain biome-cosmetic torches in their biomes would give you a luck bonus. But putting them in the wrong biomes gave you a luck penalty. But... regular old torches gave you a luck penalty in every biome that had its own custom torches (and a luck bonus in precisely zero biomes). Sometimes a huge penalty.

I don't think I need to explain why this is a horrible idea.

The way this fits into the narrative is that the developers are forcing players to use biome torches. I find this reasoning to be kind of a stretch. The fact that the developers took out accumulated negative torch luck very quickly suggests that they didn't really intend for it to have the effect of hurting the player for using regular torches in general situations.

That suggests to me that they see torch luck the way they see things like campfires and heart lanterns: mechanics to improve arenas. You don't put campfires everywhere. You use them to buff an arena for specific boss fights or general farming of items. They aren't "controlling how you play"; they are giving you mechanics that you can use to your benefit.

This also explains things like Gnome luck and Ladybug luck. Gnomes are like Heart lanterns: much harder to get, but offer a strong luck bonus. Ladybugs are more like buff furniture like the ammo-box: things you do at home before the fight.

Another element against this being part of the narrative is simple: luck is about the most opaque mechanic in Terraria's history. An "opaque" mechanic is one that exists, but the game never tells you about, and Terraria in general is pretty bad about explaining its mechanics. But luck is something that is vaguely hinted at by a few things: a Hardmode NPC, tooltip text on Garden Gnomes, and the existence of Luck potions.

But torches having an effect on luck is something that is said nowhere in the entire game. So if the game developers intended to use torch luck to get people to play in a certain way... wouldn't they first need to tell you about it? For happiness, they added an entire sub-menu to every NPC and specialized dialog for them. For torches... not even a tooltip change.

So I don't buy this fitting into that narrative. It's more likely to me that the initial release of torch luck was either a bug or just a bad idea that nobody realized at the time (somehow).

But there's a third mechanic that frequently comes up. Well, not a mechanic so much as the removal of one:

The Pre-Hardmode Bypass Fish Nerf

In 1.2.4, the developers added the Reaver Shark, a rare fishing drop from the Ocean that was a pickaxe with 100% mining power. That meant it could mine Hellstone. This allowed players to turn pre-Hardmode play into a 3-step process: fish up a Reaver Shark, make Molten Armor/weapons, beat the WoF.

This lasted in the game until Journey's End, where its power was reduced to the point where it was a slower Gold/Platinum pickaxe.

This is said to fit into the narrative because it represents the developers forcing progression on the player. Which, I mean yes it does; you now have to actually play per-Hardmode. Of course "have to" is always a weird thing to say in Terraria, since nobody is stopping you from just dropping whatever high-end gear you want into a virgin world. But the developers have certainly taken away a mechanic that allowed you to skip pre-Hardmode in a virgin world with a virgin character.

And this shows the real danger of narratives. Because if not for the narrative, this would be taken as just part of rebalancing the game. Because remember: Terraria survived many releases before the Reaver Shark even existed. Nobody called it overly controlling to not be able to skip pre-Hardmode. Removing the feature only hypothetically feels overly controlling in the context of other things that feel overly controlling.

The developers are basically saying "we made a mistake". Much like changing how flails works is about them realizing that they made a mistake with Yoyos and their overlap with flails. It's all part of JE's rebalancing efforts.

The pieces of evidence for the narrative become increasingly thin on the ground from this part forward:

Hardmode Crates

Pre-JE, one tactic some people took to deal with early hardmode was to try to skip digging for hardmode ores. Some did this because they aren't interested in that gameplay, and others did it because they didn't want the infectious biomes to rage out of control due to random infections created when breaking Altars.

They accomplished this by doing a bunch of crate fishing pre-Hardmode, then once Hardmode started, they opened all of the crates to get Hardmode metal without having to mine them.

JE changed things. There are different crates between pre-Hardmode and Hardmode now. So pre-Hardmode crates will always give pre-Hardmode bars, while only crates mined in Hardmode will give Hardmode metals.

Again, this is not particularly controlling from the developers. Yes, your old tactic won't work, but the tactic itself is still there. You just have to fish in Hardmode. Yes, that's harder since it's... Hardmode. And while you're fishing for metals, the infections will be spreading.

But this isn't some drastic alteration of behavior. If the developers wanted to control your behavior, they wouldn't have added Hardmode crates at all; they'd just remove Hardmode drops from regular crates. They left you the ability to do it; you simply can't stockpile them in pre-Hardmode.

So the preceding has been basically a list of ways in which various mechanics don't fit into the broad narrative. Now, we're going to talk about JE game features that would not be developed by designers who were trying to enforce player agency:

Journey Mode

This is a uniquely Terraria solution to "Creative Mode" in sandbox games. Remember: Terraria is not, and never has been, a pure sandbox experience. It has always had progression built into it. So its version of "Creative Mode" has to recognize this and work within it.

This mode gives players the freedom to manipulate time, change the weather, and a variety of other things. But in terms of simply generating content, this is a feature that a player must earn (unless they just download a fully-unlocked character, but you could also download a character laden with end-game items, so that's nothing new). But once earned, you can use it however you like.

This allows players to make of Journey Mode whatever they want. I planned on using Journey Mode just to generate some low-level constructable materials. But what I realized was that I could also... stop amassing large quantities of accessories, out-dated armors/weapons, and such that I don't need. If I'm not using a thing, I can just research one, sell any copies, and dupe-one up if I ever want to try it. Because I can't dupe something I didn't find myself, it's basically like having arbitrary storage with you in the game.

This means I don't have nearly as many chests lying around. I don't use it for most stacked collectables like herbs and such; I'm still building a herb garden, a tree farm, and so forth. I'm still playing the game, but I get to use Journey Mode research to reduce how much stuff I have to store. And I don't have to try to remember which things I found and which I didn't, because if I didn't find it at some point, it wouldn't be available for research.

Different people can use it in different ways.

This is the very antithesis of the narrative people are spinning about JE. But it's hardly the only such feature. Developers who want to control how users play would not make tModLoader official DLC. They wouldn't make Texture Packs an official thing.

I know NPC happiness, and old-luck to a lesser extent, left a bad taste in peoples' mouths. But do not allow that to completely color how the rest of the game works.

Honestly I think npc happiness and and luck are terrible features. It wouldn’t be as bad if negative luck was completely removed, and if npc prices couldn’t Exceed 100%. That way people could have the freedom to do what they want, and it would stay the same.

 

[Zerobillion]

To be frank, I think if they removed the negative effects like price increases, people wouldn't be bothered so much - like the torch luck situation.

Honestly I think npc happiness and and luck are terrible features. It wouldn’t be as bad if negative luck was completely removed, and if npc prices couldn’t Exceed 100%. That way people could have the freedom to do what they want, and it would stay the same.

Nah, nah, bro, you guys don't get it.

Paying more than the discounted rate is a type of penalty in itself wouldn't you say?

Don't you see? Paying the default price for stuff apparently IS negative.

 

[YourLocalTerrarian]

As said over and over again, if you want a discount, you do something for it.

This is exactly why a lot of people are saying we should just remove the price increases. So if you want to get discounts you can do the research into the npcs, and plan out how you want to build your pylon system.

You can always boot up an editor and cheat yourself the prefixes if you don't want to play the game and do something within the game.

No game should have to force their players into using mods or editors in order to justify terrible features that half the community doesn’t even think is good.

 

[smeagolheart]

Nah, nah, bro, you guys don't get it.


Don't you see? Paying the default price for stuff apparently IS negative.

If someone had a coupon for $1000 off and they were like "nay sir, I insist on paying the default price, and what's more I want you to pay me less for the stuff that I trade to you!"

People would look at that guy pretty funny.

That is in effect what is happening if you don't max out happiness for the price reduction and the price increase in items you sell that NPC.

 

[Nicol Bolas]

Honestly I think npc happiness and and luck are terrible features. It wouldn’t be as bad if negative luck was completely removed, and if npc prices couldn’t Exceed 100%. That way people could have the freedom to do what they want, and it would stay the same.

Net negative torch luck has been removed. That is, the placement of torches cannot affect your luck negatively in total (bad torches can reduce the luck from good torches, but it can't drop it below even, nor can bad torches affect luck from other luck sources). As such, there is only one remaining source of negative luck: killing a ladybug. All other sources are positive.

Is the ladybug curse debuff even worth the time it'd take to remove it?

 

[YourLocalTerrarian]

Is the ladybug curse debuff even worth the time it'd take to remove it?

I think it is, this is so unnecessary, imagine killing a lady accidentally, or being a new player and not knowing about that, there’s no reason for it. You want to keep the good luck? Yeah sure go ahead and keep that, but punishment like negative luck is absurd. The whole bad torch placement thing was a joke.

 

[Zerobillion]

If someone had a coupon for $1000 off and they were like "nay sir, I insist on paying the default price, and what's more I want you to pay me less for the stuff that I trade to you!"

People would look at that guy pretty funny.

That is in effect what is happening if you don't max out happiness for the price reduction and the price increase in items you sell that NPC.

That's not even close to being the same situation, in your silly analogy you're implying that someone somehow got access to such a coupon out of the blue and is just not using it for whatever reason, of course no one is going to do that, that's completely stupid.

But that's not what's happening here, in the happiness system, you get a bonus as a reward for your placement of NPCs. That's the difference between this and your analogy. You don't just magically "have a coupon" that you aren't using, the happiness system is how you GET that "coupon". If you don't want to put in the effort, that's fine, you don't have to, but you won't get your coupon that way.

 

[Nemo]

I'm going to assume they tuned the prices of things. Now if you screw up the happiness (as a new player) everything is 150% more expensive.

This is why they should not have prices increase beyond the 1.3 values.