Items How to (Properly) Deal With The Reaver Shark

[Angxl]

As I'm sure a multitude of players are aware, the pre-hardmode pickaxe of choice is the Reaver Shark, and even though it's confirmed to have its drop rate lowered, I don't believe that a drop rate change will ever push it into a healthy state gameplay wise.

"What is so toxic about Reaver Shark?"
Currently, Reaver Shark completely destroys any dynamic gameplay in terms of efficiency. If you're playing Terraria, why wouldn't you want the Reaver Shark unless you're purposely playing without it or you simply don't know about its existence? The answer is there's absolutely no reason and when there's absolutely no reason to not choose something over another, you end up with a very stale metagame, and currently, we have a pre-hardmode meta game which completely pushes an entire chunk of the game into obsolescence.

The Reaver Shark:

• is accessible as soon as the Merchant moves in.
• removes the need for a copper, iron, silver, gold, deathbringer and molten pickaxes and their respective alternatives as soon as the Merchant moves in.
• Allows you to skip over every single boss pre-Wall of Flesh. (Skeletron is necessary later in the game but does not need to be killed pre-WoF)
• Changes the Corruption and Crimson thematically from a sort of plague, an obstacle you need to overcome, to nothing more than another biome, despite having entire bosses set in them.
• Removes the need to create a fun and dynamic playstyle to quickly blow through pre-HM if one would desire to do so.

"Why would you want to remove stoneskipping?"

I absolutely love stoneskipping. It provides the opportunity to let skill and ingenuity shine and creates a much less tedious and more rewarding playthrough through proper usage of it. With that said, I do not believe that fishing as early as the Merchant for an item that is stronger than the previously defacto hardmode pickaxe, the Molten Pickaxe is a healthy stoneskipping method.

I personally have thought up two different ideas which could push the Reaver Shark in a much healthier spot without making it completely undesirable.

1. Change the Reaver Shark to be only accessible with a Crimson or Corruption rod only. By limiting the Reaver Shark to being a Crimson/Corruption rod and up item, the item goes from being able to skip all tiers of pre hardmode picks, to being able to skip Hellstone and also potentially Deathbringer tier pickaxes. On top of that, instead of being available after the Merchant moves in, it becomes available after the Golden Pickaxe is completed or the bosses are completed. This creates a choice in how you play the early game, as you can choose to mine or kill either of the bosses for the materials for the respective rods, as well as potentially open up the Molten Pickaxe as viable once again. If for whatever reason you wanted to exclude mining, you could also add each bosses respective materials to each rod, but I don't see the need for that as it defeats my intended purpose for creating a less two dimensional gameplay experience.
2. Rework the Reaver Shark to a Hardmode item. If you change the Reaver Shark to a Hardmode exclusive item, you can change its stats up to be in line with what would be expected of a HM item. My proposed change for the item would be to up its mining speed all the way up to 6, which is in line with the Picksaw, while retaining its current mining power of 100%. What this change does is push the item away from being a core pickaxe, to a strong niche item which is excellent in clearing large areas, retaining this proficiency all the way up to Post-Golem, while still remaining desirable, without ever affecting progression Pre-Golem. On top of that, it has the additional side effect of becoming available at a perfect time: as people enter hardmode, the size of builds, from farms to arenas, to general terraforming tends to increase a sizeable amount, and the new Reaver Shark would not only compliment that, but promote it, as a very fast pickaxe would become available at the very beginning of hardmode, allowing for precise mining done much quicker earlier into the game. I personally believe this to be the most fun solution, as well as the healthiest for the overall state of the game.

It's hard to say what the fate of the Reaver Shark actually will be as the only nerf we know of right now is a drop rate change, however to reiterate, I don't believe that lowering the drop rate will substantially change the glaring issues that Reaver Shark currently has, only making it much more tedious to obtain for anyone looking to simply collect items in game.

In summary, I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts about this, and I'm excited to see how the Reaver Shark will be dealt with.

 

[The Owler]

In short, I like this. I think I would go for option 2, over option 1. I don't need to say much more, but this is a good idea.

 

[Angxl]

In short, I like this. I think I would go for option 2, over option 1. I don't need to say much more, but this is a good idea.

That's awesome to hear. Personally, I'd love to hear your long explanation if you find the time to do so, but thank you for the input regardless!

 

[The Owler]

That's awesome to hear. Personally, I'd love to hear your long explanation if you find the time to do so, but thank you for the input regardless!

No problem!

 

[Sora_92]

This "issue" is different in single player and multiplayer, I guess.
In single player, it's pretty much up to the player how they play, it doesn't really matters if they want to get the reaver shark or not.
In multiplayer, it could affect things, but I think players could decide on allowing for it or not or something. well of course, that's more complicated, but... yeah...

Either way, you are right you can skip a large portion of the game with it, but... why would you? I really love pre-hardmode too, and in all single player playthroughs I would fight, and defeat every pre-hardmode bosses before going into hardmode.
If some would like to skip it, they can though, and I guess that is fine.
New players probably don't know about the rever shark, or even if they do, most of them might want to experience the game to the fullest?

I also don't like fishing much, so I won't bother with getting the reaver shark, and I guess I'm not the only one like that? Plus, besides being tedious to fish, saying "as soon as the merchant moved in" sounds a bit... I dunno.
you need bait, so you need a bug-catching net, yes. but you need a fishing pole, and, wooden fishing pole is awful... so you need to get something better, which requires some mining or defeating EoC, to get a decent fishing rod, I guess. and even if let's say you stumble upon a large veing of iron... traveling to the sea is quite a challange too, early game. you likely need to travel though some pretty harsh biomes on the way, so if you don't have good mobility, it's very tough (you can do without armor if you're mobile enough to dodge most stuff), that's what I think.

By the way, I think most players would usually skip some pickaxe tiers anyway. I would usually use the starter copper pickaxe until I have enough gold/platinum for that, or sometimes just keep it until I get a nightmare- or deathbringer pickaxe.

As for the suggestions
1. I dunno. you might would like to defeat EoC prior to it anyway...? I mean, you can try using reinforced rod, but still... And, unlike demonite, crimtane can't be found in crimson chasms, it appears in very small veins in random areas, it's so little, it would takes lots of mining and exploring to gather enough for the rod, while you could just defeat EoC for a decent amount of crimtane. (by the way, you don't need a gold pickaxe for demonite/crimtane, bombs work well too). I don't think it would change much, you still could get reaver shark right after EoC.

2. I see little point in that. I like building, but I think the rever shark being useful for that... I dunno. it's very niche to begin with, and I dunno if you would actually want to fish in the ocean early hardmode, just traveling there turned into much tougher, and while there aren't much enemies on the beach, it's just still very dangerous to just sit there fishing...
Also, the reaver shark is extremely bulky, it's quite in the way of seeing what are you mining, so I think it's just not fit to be a precision mining tool... I did get it in one playthrough, but I greatly prefer smaller pickaxes so I would trade it to a deathbringer pickaxe or a molten one right away if offered. XD

All in all, I dunno if changing the reaver shark is that very necessary...

 

[Angxl]

This "issue" is different in single player and multiplayer, I guess.
In single player, it's pretty much up to the player how they play, it doesn't really matters if they want to get the reaver shark or not.
In multiplayer, it could affect things, but I think players could decide on allowing for it or not or something. well of course, that's more complicated, but... yeah...

Either way, you are right you can skip a large portion of the game with it, but... why would you? I really love pre-hardmode too, and in all single player playthroughs I would fight, and defeat every pre-hardmode bosses before going into hardmode.
If some would like to skip it, they can though, and I guess that is fine.
New players probably don't know about the rever shark, or even if they do, most of them might want to experience the game to the fullest?

I also don't like fishing much, so I won't bother with getting the reaver shark, and I guess I'm not the only one like that? Plus, besides being tedious to fish, saying "as soon as the merchant moved in" sounds a bit... I dunno.
you need bait, so you need a bug-catching net, yes. but you need a fishing pole, and, wooden fishing pole is awful... so you need to get something better, which requires some mining or defeating EoC, to get a decent fishing rod, I guess. and even if let's say you stumble upon a large veing of iron... traveling to the sea is quite a challange too, early game. you likely need to travel though some pretty harsh biomes on the way, so if you don't have good mobility, it's very tough (you can do without armor if you're mobile enough to dodge most stuff), that's what I think.

By the way, I think most players would usually skip some pickaxe tiers anyway. I would usually use the starter copper pickaxe until I have enough gold/platinum for that, or sometimes just keep it until I get a nightmare- or deathbringer pickaxe.

As for the suggestions
1. I dunno. you might would like to defeat EoC prior to it anyway...? I mean, you can try using reinforced rod, but still... And, unlike demonite, crimtane can't be found in crimson chasms, it appears in very small veins in random areas, it's so little, it would takes lots of mining and exploring to gather enough for the rod, while you could just defeat EoC for a decent amount of crimtane. (by the way, you don't need a gold pickaxe for demonite/crimtane, bombs work well too). I don't think it would change much, you still could get reaver shark right after EoC.

2. I see little point in that. I like building, but I think the rever shark being useful for that... I dunno. it's very niche to begin with, and I dunno if you would actually want to fish in the ocean early hardmode, just traveling there turned into much tougher, and while there aren't much enemies on the beach, it's just still very dangerous to just sit there fishing...
Also, the reaver shark is extremely bulky, it's quite in the way of seeing what are you mining, so I think it's just not fit to be a precision mining tool... I did get it in one playthrough, but I greatly prefer smaller pickaxes so I would trade it to a deathbringer pickaxe or a molten one right away if offered. XD

All in all, I dunno if changing the reaver shark is that very necessary...

Some awesome points here! I'll touch on as many of them as I can to try and explain my thought process if you're curious and if you're not then feel free to consider it a rebuttal of sorts!

"It's up to the player on how they play"
Yes, I completely agree, however I do believe it stifles creativity to a certain extent. When I refer to it stifling creativity, I mean that all it really does is streamline what could be considered efficient gameplay. With how much potential and freedom Terraria gives you, I feel it's a waste to allow this level of stoneskipping when, by taking this away, you're allowing players to have a much more dynamic and personalized strategy to going through pre hard-mode after enough playthrough. Instead of it being "okay go left or right after you get the net and a fishing rod and fish" it becomes a lot more broad with "oh hey do you wanna go mining, or possibly loot? Possibly rush a few bosses down?" While these things still exist, the fact that a workaround the same level of magnitude as Reaver Shark is a bit crazy.

"Some players skip pickaxe tiers"
I'm one of those players! The point isn't to have a single clear line of progression in Terraria; right now the clearest line of progression is the whole Reaver Shark dilemma and that's one of the few places where that dilemma exists. I'd say my first idea creates the most dynamic line of progression, while option two aims to restore the old "line of progression" that existed prior which was a lot healthier.

1. The idea is you now have all of these options to progress. You can mine for the ore for the Rod, or even the Pickaxe, or you can fight the boss, save your ore with the Rod and spend the rest on gear, or the pick, or you can farm the bosses, and the choices you make only branch off further from there, and even leading up to those choices.
2. That's the beauty of having such a high mining speed; it stays relevant aaaaaall the way up til AFTER the mech bosses, AFTER Golem and then AFTER Golem, all of which you could potentially want an arena for. It's a risk reward sort of thing; you can get it sooner and have to grind a bit harder for it, or you can wait a bit but get it a LOT easier.

Thank you so much for your feedback!

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

@Angxl, you've said quite a bit, so I'm not going to quote you like I'd usually do! Here's my take on your suggestions...

1. We still don't know what the developers have planned for the Ocean Biome in Terraria 1.4. The lower drop rate may only be one obstacle of many.
2. I'm sure the original intent for the Reaver Sharks addition, was to make Fishing Quests more attractive, I think the Meta was an innocent oversight (efficiency is > fun, I guess).
3. There are some items in Terraria that are so rare, farming for them isn't worth the hassle, it's better to just get lucky, perhaps it's tier is similar to those items?
4. Fishing seems to be getting some addition incentives, to keep it attractive in 1.4, I think the additional features might also effect the rarity of the Reaver Shark.
5. Lastly, we just can't be sure about what other kinds of methods of progression we'll be getting in the update, I think assuming we'll be left with the same issues might be a bit presumptuous?

Anyhow, that's just my take on the matter. After seeing those new Biome Crystals, I'm fairly certain the developers are taking a good, hard look at this game, from top to bottom!

 

[Angxl]

@Angxl, you've said quite a bit, so I'm not going to quote you like I'd usually do! Here's my take on your suggestions...

1. We still don't know what the developers have planned for the Ocean Biome in Terraria 1.4. The lower drop rate may only be one obstacle of many.
2. I'm sure the original intent for the Reaver Sharks addition, was to make Fishing Quests more attractive, I think the Meta was an innocent oversight (efficiency is > fun, I guess).
3. There are some items in Terraria that are so rare, farming for them isn't worth the hassle, it's better to just get lucky, perhaps it's tier is similar to those items?
4. Fishing seems to be getting some addition incentives, to keep it attractive in 1.4, I think the additional features might also effect the rarity of the Reaver Shark.
5. Lastly, we just can't be sure about what other kinds of methods of progression we'll be getting in the update, I think assuming we'll be left with the same issues might be a bit presumptuous?

Anyhow, that's just my take on the matter. After seeing those new Biome Crystals, I'm fairly certain the developers are taking a good, hard look at this game, from top to bottom!

Those are some wonderful points and are definitely worth taking into consideration! My post primarily aims to focus on Reaver Shark in the current state of the game and how it affects that state. Should that be drastically altered as you've said, it's entirely possible we could still end up in a healthy and dynamic state, and that's probably what I'm most excited about. I think the number one thing I wanted to convey with this post is that only a drop percent change wouldn't fix the issues that exist with Reaver Shark and that the item can also be fixed with more than just making it obsolete. Thank you for your feedback and I'm absolutely excited to see where the state of the game will lay after 1.4!

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Those are some wonderful points and are definitely worth taking into consideration! My post primarily aims to focus on Reaver Shark in the current state of the game and how it affects that state. Should that be drastically altered as you've said, it's entirely possible we could still end up in a healthy and dynamic state, and that's probably what I'm most excited about. I think the number one thing I wanted to convey with this post is that only a drop percent change wouldn't fix the issues that exist with Reaver Shark and that the item can also be fixed with more than just making it obsolete. Thank you for your feedback and I'm absolutely excited to see where the state of the game will lay after 1.4!

No problem! Here's my take though, if the intent of the developers, was to make the Reaver Shark a rare & valuable treasure, it'd actually be just that with the higher rarity tier.
How exciting would it be, to get a 1/1000 chance item, that allows you to essentially "skip ahead", even if you didn't expect to get it? What about a 1/8000 chance drop?
Sometimes intent is more valuable than trying to balance things all the time, risk & reward are only optional sets of conditions for choice. You wanna grind? Feel free, it's a 1/1000 chance drop, have fun?!

On the other side of that fence, imagine how exciting it would be to get this item, when you weren't even trying to get it! It goes from being extremely meta to possibly a very memorable run!
A lot of thing are only meta because of the age we live in, it's good in some ways, bad in others. I'm extremely glad that years of fixing the feel of this game is a luxury we have, as most games don't get this kind of support (unless you play Skyrim or Fallout: New Vegas).

 

[Sora_92]

Again, I think in the end, it doesn't really matters. Most players probably wouldn't skip nearly half of the game? Like, then why are you playing...? But if someone feels like skipping it for whatever reason like wanna try some time challange how fast they can reach to the Moon Lord, why not?
I still think defeating some bosses might would befaster that trying to depend on luck (and RNG) if you can actually catch a reaver shark.

Technically speaking, you still could do with only defeating EoW/BoC - or some fight them and get enough scales/tissue samples to craft a nightmare-/deathbringer pickaxe. (But if you gear up for that EoC probably will attack you too. And You do need to defeat Skeletron for later anyway... and then it's only a few bosses you would skip, not all.) and then go mining Hellstone, and obsidian... well, yes, it would take time and danger, but I think that's part of the fun.

There are many things that most players skip anyway? Like ore-tier armors. Seriously they require a crazy amount of ores...

Fast speed pickaxe is cool, but why would you like a bulky pickaxe (partly obstructing vision what exactly you're mining) with such a low pickaxe power for hardmode? Post-Plantera, you could get shroomite digging claws, which are a lot smaller, crazy fast, and can mine everything except lizhard bricks. Crafting it kind of a pain though.

 

[Angxl]

No problem! Here's my take though, if the intent of the developers, was to make the Reaver Shark a rare & valuable treasure, it'd actually be just that with the higher rarity tier.
How exciting would it be, to get a 1/1000 chance item, that allows you to essentially "skip ahead", even if you didn't expect to get it? What about a 1/8000 chance drop?
Sometimes intent is more valuable than trying to balance things all the time, risk & reward are only optional sets of conditions for choice. You wanna grind? Feel free, it's a 1/1000 chance drop, have fun?!

On the other side of that fence, imagine how exciting it would be to get this item, when you weren't even trying to get it! It goes from being extremely meta to possibly a very memorable run!
A lot of thing are only meta because of the age we live in, it's good in some ways, bad in others. I'm extremely glad that years of fixing the feel of this game is a luxury we have, as most games don't get this kind of support (unless you play Skyrim or Fallout: New Vegas).

That's definitely an amazing point, and while I do still hold my points a bit closer, as I don't necessarily agree with the idea of not having a pre-hardmode gate to pass whatsoever, I do agree that raising the number high enough could potentially allow for highs you might not possibly hit and that would in turn, switch the Reaver Shark from something relatively easy to get to simply push past pre-hardmode, to something not necessarily worth grinding for in terms of time efficiency, but a run maker if you're able to pull it in time! With that said, that does put in to question, at what point does that have the potential to throw something like a glitchless any% speedrun, for example, into a one off, borderline unreplicatiple anomaly given the amount of disparity between a potential time to get Reaver Shark with enough luck, and the time it would take to progress through 2-3 tiers of pickaxes? I don't enjoy speedrunning much, but as I do know that Terraria has a community surrounding it, it's worth taking into consideration.

 

[Angxl]

Again, I think in the end, it doesn't really matters. Most players probably wouldn't skip nearly half of the game? Like, then why are you playing...? But if someone feels like skipping it for whatever reason like wanna try some time challange how fast they can reach to the Moon Lord, why not?
I still think defeating some bosses might would befaster that trying to depend on luck (and RNG) if you can actually catch a reaver shark.

Technically speaking, you still could do with only defeating EoW/BoC - or some fight them and get enough scales/tissue samples to craft a nightmare-/deathbringer pickaxe. (But if you gear up for that EoC probably will attack you too. And You do need to defeat Skeletron for later anyway... and then it's only a few bosses you would skip, not all.) and then go mining Hellstone, and obsidian... well, yes, it would take time and danger, but I think that's part of the fun.

There are many things that most players skip anyway? Like ore-tier armors. Seriously they require a crazy amount of ores...

Fast speed pickaxe is cool, but why would you like a bulky pickaxe (partly obstructing vision what exactly you're mining) with such a low pickaxe power for hardmode? Post-Plantera, you could get shroomite digging claws, which are a lot smaller, crazy fast, and can mine everything except lizhard bricks. Crafting it kind of a pain though.

While I agree that some people would potentially wanna skip through pre-hardmode, I personally believe that at the moment, using Reaver Shark is an option that is much too accessible and I feel it will always be in one shape or another.

A few points you brought up don't come in to play much at all. The first issue is that you don't need a Deathbringer Pickaxe or its alternative, as Reaver Shark replaces the need for it entirely, so that rules out a need for EoW and BoC. On top of that, while Skeletron needs to be defeated to progress, it's not necessary to do pre-hardmode; since the game scales up linearly, you can run through and get a very substantial lead on Skeletron. I'm completely okay with interactions like this, however hardmode is littered with gates you need to pass through to progress, and I personally find it shortsighted that previously necessary gates in pre-hardmode are able to be completely subverted as quickly as they're able to be currently.

As for a fast pick being bulky not fitting thematically, I personally disagree. I find having a very large pickaxe being able to decimate through terrain without being able to break stronger materials fairly thematic; it gives the sense of haphazardly breaking through an area without much regard.

In regards to it not being useful, I'd argue that having a tool that speeds up the creation of large scale projects and infrastructure, something that tends to ramp up once a player reaches hardmode, available as soon as entering hardmode caters to several large groups of players; technical players, builders and potentially even casual players just looking for that bump in speed. Just because it may not cater to you as a player, doesn't mean it's inherently bad at all. In the same way you might not use Ranger gear in a Melee playthrough, you may not use an item that fits a niche purpose that doesn't fit in line with your favoured way of playing and that is completely okay for item design.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

...With that said, that does put in to question, at what point does that have the potential to throw something like a glitchless any% speedrun, for example, into a one off, borderline unreplicatiple anomaly given the amount of disparity between a potential time to get Reaver Shark with enough luck, and the time it would take to progress through 2-3 tiers of pickaxes? I don't enjoy speedrunning much, but as I do know that Terraria has a community surrounding it, it's worth taking into consideration.

Speedrunners are the kind of players who like to push the game to & sometimes beyond its limits. They'll just have to get creative & find newer methods with the newer tools we'll have in 1.4. I wouldn't worry too much about them, they'll be just fine... trust me!

 

[Sora_92]

While I agree that some people would potentially wanna skip through pre-hardmode, I personally believe that at the moment, using Reaver Shark is an option that is much too accessible and I feel it will always be in one shape or another.

A few points you brought up don't come in to play much at all. The first issue is that you don't need a Deathbringer Pickaxe or its alternative, as Reaver Shark replaces the need for it entirely, so that rules out a need for EoW and BoC. On top of that, while Skeletron needs to be defeated to progress, it's not necessary to do pre-hardmode; since the game scales up linearly, you can run through and get a very substantial lead on Skeletron. I'm completely okay with interactions like this, however hardmode is littered with gates you need to pass through to progress, and I personally find it shortsighted that previously necessary gates in pre-hardmode are able to be completely subverted as quickly as they're able to be currently.

As for a fast pick being bulky not fitting thematically, I personally disagree. I find having a very large pickaxe being able to decimate through terrain without being able to break stronger materials fairly thematic; it gives the sense of haphazardly breaking through an area without much regard.

In regards to it not being useful, I'd argue that having a tool that speeds up the creation of large scale projects and infrastructure, something that tends to ramp up once a player reaches hardmode, available as soon as entering hardmode caters to several large groups of players; technical players, builders and potentially even casual players just looking for that bump in speed. Just because it may not cater to you as a player, doesn't mean it's inherently bad at all. In the same way you might not use Ranger gear in a Melee playthrough, you may not use an item that fits a niche purpose that doesn't fit in line with your favoured way of playing and that is completely okay for item design.

I don't really think most players would actually like to skip though it anyway. I know I don't really like fishing, and I do like adventuring and fighting (and building!) so I know I wouldn't go for the reaver shark in most cases.
But as far as single player goes, we can have players do it in a way they like, to as much as the game allows. I don't really think newbies would go for it anyway (in their case, that definitelly could ruin the game, if they skip though pre-hardmode (although I don't really think they could defeat WoF without mastering the basics of the game)

Like... sure, you could get hellstone with a reaver shark, but that still doesn't means just because you have it, you can actually get hellstone armor is blink of an eye. The underworld is one of the toughest, and most unforgiving biome pre-hardmode, if you would go down there in a wooden armor or something like that... yeah, good luck surviving there even if you're swinging around a bulky shark. Plus you need obsidian too to craft hellstone, so, you have to mine for that too.

What I meant by deathbringer pickaxe is, you need that (or the reaver shark) to mine hellstone. IF you want hellstone armor, anyway. If not, then, you can skip on that too,
and if you don't want early hardmode ores - that's not reeeeeally an option in vanilla, but modded usually offers several other choices... although even in vanilla, if you're daring enough, you could try to cheese the destroyer while wearing pre-hardmode armor, get enough hallowed bars for a full hallowed armor, defeat the other mech bosses wearing that, and voila, you can get a pickaxe axe (or drax). maybe after copper pickaxe, if you didn't wanted to craft a deathbringer pickaxe. even more, if you don't want to fumble with clorophyte and trust hallowed armor enough (a friend just defeated moon lord in hallowed armor the other week) you could, potencially just stick to the copper pickaxe and then you could get an end-game pickaxe from golem, or post moon lord, from luminite (plus fragments), if you want.

Point being you could for example keep your copper pickaxe from the start, until defeated BoC, craft a deathbringer pickaxe since you have the material anyway (BoC drops plenty of both material needed for it) then keep that until you defeated all 3 mech bosses, and craft a pickaxe axe, and then get a picksaw from golem (after half a bajillion tries, just because RNG being unkind) I know I had at least one playthrough like that. You can skip much more on the pickaxe progression than getting a rever shark after the copper pickaxe. But that doesn't means you have to skip any other aspects of the game, like bosses or exploring & adventuring, that's what I think.

So, I guess in a way, you can actually skip on any pickaxes (if you're fine with copper being slow and weak) because you can get armors in other ways too.

Yes, yes, "it gives the sense of haphazardly breaking through an area without much regard" I can totally agree with that, and that's why I think it would not fit to be a pickaxe "allowing for precise mining done much quicker earlier into the game" (although you did talked about it could helps with quick arena building, I do agree with that, but, - maybe I'm just nitpicky - that is the opposite of being "precise", I think.
And again, you could just use TNT if you don't mind that it's even less precise, clearing a place with it sounds much faster that the fastest pickaxe...

"Just because it may not cater to you as a player, doesn't mean it's inherently bad at all." This might be one of the cores of the whole thing with reaver shark too. just because we dislike it, it doesn't means it's necessarily bad... And I think this is one of the core points, and charm points of terraria. "there are many ways that leads up the mountain", right?

 

[Tyrian3k]

-snip-

As someone who likes using the Reaver Shark since I enjoy fishing, I really can't agree with your viewpoint.
You can skip straight to the WoF without the Reaver Shark. No boss, ore or anything, really is needed for you to go down to Hell and kill it, so I don't quite follow your logic here. If someone can beat the WoF without going through the standard progression, it's their choice to make.

Your point that it makes pre-HM content pointless is plain false. All it does is give you a different option for a pickaxe. You get nothing more and nothing less. It doesn't give you an automatic armor and it doesn't give you a super strong weapon, either. All it ultimately does is make pre-HM mining less time consuming at the expense of gathering a ton of bait and spending time to travel all across your world to fish in the ocean. It's a perfectly valid trade-off.

Corruption and Crimson are hardly obstacles anyway. Once you get a grenade/bomb/dynamite, you can just get the Demolitionist and destroy any corrupt block you please.
If someone wants to use it, let them use it. No need to worry how others play your game. If you don't like it, you can just not bother using it. If you can't stop yourself from using it, that's your personal problem, not the game's. There's a huge amount of players who never go fishing for it and are just fine.


There are plenty of other powerful skips you can make. Just a few examples:

Meteorite actually gives you powerful pre-HM armor set and a very powerful weapon to go with it. You can go bomb two Shadow Orbs/Crimson Hearts. Every time you smash one, there's a 50% chance of a meteor dropping if you do it between midnight and dawn (Or a 50% chance for one to drop at midnight if you smash it outside of those times). With two smashed, you have a 75% chance to get an armor set and a weapon that is powerful enough to kill the WoF with. Best thing is that you can go mine all that meteorite with the very same explosives that you used to destroy the Shadow Orbs/Crimson Hearts with, so all progession skipped with less effort than a Reaver Shark can. Even if you don't get a meteor from two orbs, you can just smash a third, despawn the EoW by teleporting out and just go back to smash even more.
Killed the WoF and now have no pickaxe to mine new ores with? Good news! Just drop a couple bombs down onto the no longer explosion resistant Hellstone after you're done with the WoF and you're good to go. And yes, that means it's completely unnecessary to craft a Nightmare/Deathbringer Pickaxe to progress even without using a Reaver Shark.

Since we're talking about fishing, why not nerf fishing crates as well? They can give loot that is rather OP for a beginning character and can completely skip altar smashing and HM-ore mining altogether.

Or why not go back to 1.1 and have Sky Island chests opened with a Golden Key from the dungeon so a player can't just use a gravitation potion to get a powerful Starfury?

And of course we have to lock Duke Fishron behind Golem so that you can't get his OP items too early.

Point is that there are plenty of skips that give you a substantial advantage over the regular progression, and if people want to go out of their way to do it, just let them do it. Some skips require spending time and some require skill.

That aside, if you want a more dynamic progression, I think you'd be better off arguing for something that actually deals with all skips, rather than just the Reaver Shark. E.g. arguing for pre-HM progression to get a similar treatment to HM progression, meaning that certain bosses require certain other bosses to be defeated first, i.e. you have to kill the EoC to be able to smash Shadow Orbs/Crimson Hearts and summon the EoW, who is then needed to summon Skeletron etc.

How exciting would it be, to get a 1/1000 chance item, that allows you to essentially "skip ahead", even if you didn't expect to get it? What about a 1/8000 chance drop?
Sometimes intent is more valuable than trying to balance things all the time, risk & reward are only optional sets of conditions for choice. You wanna grind? Feel free, it's a 1/1000 chance drop, have fun?!

That doesn't make it exciting, that makes it tedious. The only reason in the current game to fish in the ocean at all is to get a Reaver Shark, so if you make it extremely rare, no one will bother fishing there at all.
This isn't a Slime Staff situation where you kill plenty of slimes automatically with every character in every world as you go through the game and might randomly get it by pure luck. You have to go out of your way and intentionally hike all across your world to the ocean to get a chance at it.
You either fish for the Reaver Shark when fishing in the ocean or you don't fish in the ocean at all.

If it was a very rare drop from e.g. Rain-specific enemies, you'd maybe have a point, but extremely low chances in fishing will just make it an obscure item that will be used by as many people as use Bananarangs, which is close to zero.

I also don't get what you mean when you talk about intent, rather than balancing things. You're literally arguing to balance things via a change in the drop rate.

That aside, your last sentence there really sounds like you're being rather sadistic towards people who want to fish and use a Reaver Shark. Whether that is intended or not, I do not know.

 

[Dapling]

The reaver shark isn’t as much of a progression breaker as people give it credit for. Hellstone doesn’t compare to Crimtane and Meteorite ore in terms of power, which just require a gold pickaxe to get. Nerfing the drop chance is enough, and I’d hardly call it “toxic”. It already takes much more grinding than any of the other options you mentioned.

“but what about hellstone armor?” Yeah... that would be a problem... if the wall of flesh didn’t obliterate every prehardmode melee weapon in the game.

Think of it this way, would you rather spend hours grinding for an item that will let you improve the weapons that are either a) highly limited in range allowing bosses to shred you or b) completely useless and hilariously bad at range, or would you rather throw two bombs at a crimson heart and open up one decent armor which lets you spam a decent projectile for free, and another armor which is both ridiculously tanky and improves the damage of all four classes? I’ve tried both, and trust me, one had much more payoff than the other.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

That doesn't make it exciting, that makes it tedious. The only reason in the current game to fish in the ocean at all is to get a Reaver Shark, so if you make it extremely rare, no one will bother fishing there at all.
This isn't a Slime Staff situation where you kill plenty of slimes automatically with every character in every world as you go through the game and might randomly get it by pure luck. You have to go out of your way and intentionally hike all across your world to the ocean to get a chance at it.
You either fish for the Reaver Shark when fishing in the ocean or you don't fish in the ocean at all.

That's cool & everything, but the developers already decided to make Reaver Shark's rarity tier higher, so it doesn't matter what I think, that's what's happening.
Also, there's plenty of reasons to fish in the Ocean Biome currently, but there'll be more in 1.4, so my concern with current state-of-the game is inconsequential.

1. Ocean Biome is getting some attention in 1.4, we still don't know exactly what that means yet, so fishing there sounds pretty reasonable.
2. In 1.3.5, the Angler might have the player fish in the Ocean Biome for quests, the Angler gives pretty cool rewards so... you might get lucky?
3. If you wanna craft one of the most complex & useful items in the game, you've gotta do fishing quests... you might have to revisit the Ocean Biome too.
4. It's also, generally much easier to fish in the Ocean Biome, so ppl who like fishing tend to like going there anyway & Pylons will make it 10x easier in 1.4!
5. If you wanna farm for crates... well, hello Ocean Biome, yet again. Once you start increasing your bait power the entire process gets easier overall.

I have no idea where you were going with this but... here you go, I'm pretty sure I've been clear about my take on things.

 

[Tyrian3k]

That's cool & everything, but the developers already decided to make Reaver Shark's rarity tier higher, so it doesn't matter what I think, that's what's happening.
Also, there's plenty of reasons to fish in the Ocean Biome currently, but there'll be more in 1.4, so my concern with current state-of-the game is inconsequential.

1. Ocean Biome is getting some attention in 1.4, we still don't know exactly what that means yet, so fishing there sounds pretty reasonable.
2. In 1.3.5, the Angler might have the player fish in the Ocean Biome for quests, the Angler gives pretty cool rewards so... you might get lucky?
3. If you wanna craft one of the most complex & useful items in the game, you've gotta do fishing quests... you might have to revisit the Ocean Biome too.
4. It's also, generally much easier to fish in the Ocean Biome, so ppl who like fishing tend to like going there anyway & Pylons will make it 10x easier in 1.4!
5. If you wanna farm for crates... well, hello Ocean Biome, yet again. Once you start increasing your bait power the entire process gets easier overall.

I have no idea where you were going with this but... here you go, I'm pretty sure I've been clear about my take on things.

Can you link me to where they decided that? I could only find them making the Sawtooth Shark and Swordfish less common. That aside, increasing the rarity tier of the shark is hardly the 1/1000 chance, let alone a 1/8000 one that you suggested.

1. We know of the Goblin Shark enemy and the Blood Nautilus miniboss. No mention of anything relating to fishing whatsoever that I can find.
2. That's a pretty rare occurrence, considering only one single quest fish requires fishing in the ocean in pre-HM.
3. That's just #2 again.
4. All you need is a bucket and you can make a suitable lake anywhere, preferrably in places where you get some useful fish for potions or some biome crates, i.e. not the ocean.
5. See #4.

So no, currently there's no reason to fish there at all outside of the occasional quest and the Reaver Shark. There's nothing else useful you can get from there that you can't get literally anywhere else. And there's also nothing that supports your argument that there will be more incentive to go to the ocean to fish, either.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

@Tyrian3k It was discussed in the Discord Chat, having to do with the new rarity of the Reaver Shark. I'm not sure about any other source that might exist. The Discord often allows for very deep & specific questions, so you'd have to scroll through there if your truly interested. Leinfors or Cenx didn't say exactly what tier the rarity would be specifically though, just that it'd be much harder to get than before, so that it'd fit more in line with the rest of the game.

1.) Go to the Discord, the Ocean Biome is one of the many new places where Pylons will function, in addition, the Ocean Biome has the least tendency toward getting corrupted, meaning that it'll likely still be a reliable source of transportation in Early Hardmode.

2.) We can't be sure which NPCs will prefer the Ocean Biome in 1.4, but it'll certainly be one or two, if you decided to use the new NPC features. There's already reasons to go there, even if Blood Nautilus & Goblin Shark are the only thing we've been spoon fed, dig a lil' deeper my guy...

3.) No it's not, because ppl like myself have been building hubs in other biomes before Pylons were even a thing. You can easily build a base on the ocean, just like any other place in the game, so if you wanna fish (like I do, just for fun), you don't have to use exploits or grind for buckets, using your precious ores for other useful things, might not even need to craft a sink if you don't wanna. We don't all play this game the same way.

4.) Nope, the Ocean is a valid place to set up shop, especially if you have several toons with separate "jobs" (like myself). Usefulness in a game like Terraria can be very subjective.

5.) Nope, an already functional fishing base that requires nothing from me but to fish will always make more sense than building something totally unnecessary. Duke Fishron is snarling at you as we speak!

 

[Tyrian3k]

Well, don't think I'll find that needle in the discord-chat haystack.

If the problem is people skipping content, lowering the chance will not deal with the problem, it'll only make it less common. It would make way more sense to simply lock it behind the EoW instead, as the OP does give as an option with the fishing rod. That would probably be far less intrusive to any player who wants to use it than making the drop chance abysmal.

I still fail to see how it allows you to skip anything when you can go through pre-HM without using any pickaxe even once thanks to bombs.
The issue with skips in progression in pre-HM is that there is only very few things that are locked behind others to begin with. If they want there to be progression, the first thing they should consider is to lock the WoF fight behind Skeletron and Skeletron behind EoC or EoW. That instantly gets rid of anybody trying to just skip pre-HM, including all other skips, not just the Reaver Shark.