Weapons & Equip Imp/Spider/Twins AI changes

[Toxophilite [East]]

Imps do a bit more damage than bees but the also attack a bit slower, and since they pierce they often cancel each other's attacks which means that right now they're pretty comparable to the hornets. I don't think molten should be a straight upgrade to the bee gear just look at the bee's knees which can vastly out perform the molten fury thanks to the bee arrows. Not to mention its more difficult to kill queen bee than it is to mine hellstone.

My Ideal imp and hornet would be say 20 damage for the hornet, 23 damage for the imp and make the imp fireballs use local iFrames. The hornet would do a bit more single target dps since it's faster, while the imp can pierce.

That sounds cool, having these Minions be somewhat comparable, but I have a feeling that thematically, the Developers wouldn't be down for it. Though I agree that there may be some cases where gathering Hellstone might be easier than fighting Queen Bee, everything intuitively points to it being an upgrade, at least for most Classes; though I agree Summoner has the space to be a bit more ambiguous in this instance.

Also, as a person who typically plays on higher difficulties, I sometimes have to take a step back. At just 20 damage per hit, Hornet Minions on Classic Mode would kill Jungle Bats, by themselves, in two hits (with Bee Armor)! That's almost like having a free Code 1 Yoyo, always active.

Since the hornet attacks once per second it would have 20 dps
Since the imp attacks 0.8(on average) times per second it would do 18.4 dps
The spider attacks 2 times per second so it has 52dps.

 

[qwerty3.14]

That sounds cool, having these Minions be somewhat comparable, but I have a feeling that thematically, the Developers wouldn't be down for it. Though I agree that there may be some cases where gathering Hellstone might be easier than fighting Queen Bee, everything intuitively points to it being an upgrade, at least for most Classes; though I agree Summoner has the space to be a bit more ambiguous in this instance.

If molten tier is supposed to be better than queen bee weapons the devs failed at it... which is what makes the imp staff seemingly be better than the hornet feel strange.

Even after getting nerfed the bee keeper is still better than the fiery greatsword. Although in the current state of things both these weapons are quite undewhelming.

The bee's knees was arguable the best prehardmode weapon in 1.3 and is still a contender in 1.4 even after the nerf.

There aren't really molten magic weapons, but the bee gun is easily better than all the non molten fury weapons.

Oh and... beenades... I don't think I need to convince you that beenades are good. Arguable the best WoF killer, although with how good bee's knees is it feels like overkill.

Also, as a person who typically plays on higher difficulties, I sometimes have to take a step back. At just 20 damage per hit, Hornet Minions on Classic Mode would kill Jungle Bats, by themselves, in two hits (with Bee Armor)! That's almost like having a free Code 1 Yoyo, always active.

Hornets only attack once per second, yoyos attack much faster than that. You're also comparing a post EoC weapon to a post queen bee one, queen bee is like two bosses ahead of the eye.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

If molten tier is supposed to be better than queen bee weapons the devs failed at it... which is what makes the imp staff seemingly be better than the hornet feel strange.

All I can say to this is that, progression in Terraria is fluid sometimes. I can't speak to each individual weapon when compared, side-by-side, but I do know that certain weapons like the Phoenix Blaster are unmatched & Molten Armor is debatably the best pre-Hardmode set. It's always good to give the player options, so Queen Bee & Hellstone being somewhat comparable is ok in my eyes, but even so, I don't think Imps being rivaled by Hornets will ever fly. It just feels off... you're definitely on to something though.

Even after getting nerfed the bee keeper is still better than the fiery greatsword. Although in the current state of things both these weapons are quite undewhelming.

I can't speak to this per se, but killing Queen Bee is pretty much a win button so... I wouldn't be surprised.

The bee's knees was arguable the best prehardmode weapon in 1.3 and is still a contender in 1.4 even after the nerf.

There aren't really molten magic weapons, but the bee gun is easily better than all the non molten fury weapons.

I know that Demon Scythe doesn't technically count as Hellstone equipment, but I've always considered it within the same tier due to its proximity & accessibility. As much as I love the Bee Gear, Demon Scythe is in a class of its own, right beside Phoenix Blaster.

Oh and... beenades... I don't think I need to convince you that beenades are good. Arguable the best WoF killer, although with how good bee's knees is it feels like overkill.

Hornets only attack once per second, yoyos attack much faster than that. You're also comparing a post EoC weapon to a post queen bee one, queen bee is like two bosses ahead of the eye.

I'm mostly accounting for the Hornets beeing... in a swarm of 3+ (Bee-cause, Bee Armor). To me, it feels like having a Code 1 Yoyo, always active, regardless of tier, that's pretty darn powerful IMHO...

 

[SaltyDog]

If molten tier is supposed to be better than queen bee weapons the devs failed at it... which is what makes the imp staff seemingly be better than the hornet feel strange.

Even after getting nerfed the bee keeper is still better than the fiery greatsword. Although in the current state of things both these weapons are quite undewhelming.

The bee's knees was arguable the best prehardmode weapon in 1.3 and is still a contender in 1.4 even after the nerf.

There aren't really molten magic weapons, but the bee gun is easily better than all the non molten fury weapons.

Oh and... beenades... I don't think I need to convince you that beenades are good. Arguable the best WoF killer, although with how good bee's knees is it feels like overkill.


Hornets only attack once per second, yoyos attack much faster than that. You're also comparing a post EoC weapon to a post queen bee one, queen bee is like two bosses ahead of the eye.

Actually the Hellwing Bow is much better than the Bee's Knees by about twice the DPS output.

 

[Dapling]

Actually the Hellwing Bow is much better than the Bee's Knees by about twice the DPS output.

Hellwing bow doesn't have homing and piercing combined. Hellwing Bow is also very innacurate.

 

[qwerty3.14]

Actually the Hellwing Bow is much better than the Bee's Knees by about twice the DPS output.

That's not really molten tier since you need to go to the dungeon and get a shadow key, but even then the bee's knees is a much more reliable weapon.

 

[SaltyDog]

Though the hellwing bow is still very good in an enclosed space, due to bouncing of walls and eventually covering the entire room and killing anything in it.

 

[Dapling]

Though the hellwing bow is still very good in an enclosed space, due to bouncing of walls and eventually covering the entire room and killing anything in it.

The hellwing bow doesn't bounce though? Bees Knees actually does anyway so that's not really an advantage.

 

[SaltyDog]

I was pretty sure it did a few times at least.

 

[Dapling]

I was pretty sure it did a few times at least.

just tested: No they most definitely do not. They just poof away at the first wall they touch.

You can see where one hit the wall and disappeared by looking at the orange cloud of sparks.

The Bees Knees actually bounces and doesn't need RNG to hit things, so there really is no advantage over bee loot that shadow chest/hellstone loot has. It's why it's probably best that both of the prehardmode projectile minions get buffed so that they actually compare to everything else.

 

[SaltyDog]

Oh...

 

[Yreorel]

most players who want to grind Summoner Class into utter mediocrity, want easier access to Sanguine Staff, but Bloodnautilus is in the way.

The problem is that Sanguine Staff is that it's the only alternative to Blade Staff as a reliable smacking-others weapon that don't have stupid quirks you have to play around, until you get to UFO

People want it, not due to its strength, but because they are bored of looking at blades on their screen.

Spider Minions still rival it in some instances, that alone say a LOT!

Spiders have invulnerability problems

I did, but I also had two Imp Minions summoned for back-up, which means I never expected them to be top-flight, Russian homing missiles.

Spiders can't even do enough DPS vs. Twins in Master Worthy

Have you had a Vampire Frog Minion, plus 2-3 Hornet Minions summoned?

I am a summoner purist, and always get Imp before Hornet anyway. Hornet is downright worthless.

That said, Vampire Frog is pretty good vs Queen Bee

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

The problem is that Sanguine Staff is that it's the only alternative to Blade Staff as a reliable smacking-others weapon that don't have stupid quirks you have to play around, until you get to UFO

Cool, I fully understand that some ppl like to min-max. However, that means you'll have to work around your own progression limitations. Some ppl are stubborn enough to not move on with their playthrough until they get exactly the item they want, cool, you have every right to do that. The issue I've seen, is that they then go on to try to blame the Developers for a drop being too rare, that's far from essential. I tell Terrarians here all-the-time; if you Summon three Blade Minions & two sets of Twins, Sanguine Staff won't be missed. You'll cover about the same ranges & you'll be doing close to the same DPS.

Some games have super rare items, that's what makes them special sometimes. With so many ways to progress in Terraria, why must you have everything-ever, in just one playthrough? What, you didn't get Sanguine Staff your first three tries? Fine, go do something else, then try again later; but if you choose to live in the Ocean Biome for several days because you absolutely must have the Sanguine Staff... that's on you. It's rare for a reason.

People want it, not due to its strength, but because they are bored of looking at blades on their screen.

I don't believe that explanation, because there's a large number of Minions to choose from if a player is at the level to properly Challenge Bloodnautilus. In fact, you could be farming Pirates for their Minions, cheese Duke Fishron for his gear or even start investing into OOA to start using Sentries. It's ok if you want your Nikita Missiles, I'm just telling you that the game doesn't stop being fun, or playable because Bloodnautilus won't drop exactly what you want; it's an optional enemy, that's not required to progress, you'll be just fine without it's Minions, I promise.

Spiders have invulnerability problems

I'm not sure what all this immunity & invulnerability stuff is exactly, I just interpret it as iFrames & recovery Frames. All games have these sorta features, to limit damage thresholds & maintain balance. For me, it's no different than NOT being able to hit an enemy who's on the ground in a fighting game, or repeat the same meteor attack to limit infinite combos, you just have to work around it because... videogames. What I can say, is there was never a time game mechanics made me feel as if Spider Minions were bad. Also keep in mind that Spider Gear is a kit, so if there is a threshold that exists you want to surpass, you can always summon Queen Spider to help you do that, right away actually, as they are in the same progression tier.

Spiders can't even do enough DPS vs. Twins in Master Worthy

How much DPS is considered enough? If you're suggesting that it's in your best interest to progression skip, to beat a Boss, well... welcome to the club! Sometimes you have to reach into your progression-skip bag to keep up, that's just how it is when you're doing challenge runs. In no way should Spider Minions be changed to take a Master Mode + ForTheWorthy challenge run into consideration. If you need more DPS, go looking & try being creative. Where there's a will, there's a way!

I am a summoner purist, and always get Imp before Hornet anyway. Hornet is downright worthless.

Cool, but to hear a person skilled enough to progression skip Hornets for Imps & Blood Moon gear for Queen Bee, complaining about Spider Minions, sounds a bit odd to me. What you get, for when & how you get them; I just don't know... sounds off.

That said, Vampire Frog is pretty good vs Queen Bee

I wouldn't know, I typically use Finch Staff for Queen Bee. I kinda feel that, once you're able to defeat Queen Bee, you should probably do that first, before fishing for Blood Moon gear. As I said before though, progression in Terraria can be fluid at times, but I'm shocked to hear that you find the optional Blood Moon enemies in pre-Hardmode, easier to deal with than the Twins, with Spider Gear in Hardmode. Then again, ppl here often say that Duke Fishron is an easier Boss than Plantera.

When a good amount of your strategy is cheesing enemies, there's always gonna come a point where the cheese stops working.

 

[qwerty3.14]

Cool, I fully understand that some ppl like to min-max. However, that means you'll have to work around your own progression limitations. Some ppl are stubborn enough to not move on with their playthrough until they get exactly the item they want, cool, you have every right to do that. The issue I've seen, is that they then go on to try to blame the Developers for a drop being too rare, that's far from essential. I tell Terrarians here all-the-time; if you Summon three Blade Minions & two sets of Twins, Sanguine Staff won't be missed. You'll cover about the same ranges & you'll be doing close to the same DPS.

Some games have super rare items, that's what makes them special sometimes. With so many ways to progress in Terraria, why must you have everything-ever, in just one playthrough? What, you didn't get Sanguine Staff your first three tries? Fine, go do something else, then try again later; but if you choose to live in the Ocean Biome for several days because you absolutely must have the Sanguine Staff... that's on you. It's rare for a reason.

I don't mind there being rare items, getting a lucky rare item makes that run a bit more special, however... here's the issue I have with the sanguine staff's rarity. You need to be fishing... during a bloodmoon... and when you kill dread it's only a 20% drop chance. This isn't an item that you can just luckily stumble upon its something you have to go out of your way to get, and if you don't get it, well you don't really get anything else.

If dreadnautelus had like 4 other good drops and would always drop one at random the staff would be just as rare but I would be nowhere near as bothered by it.

There's also the fact that the spider is the only good reliably obtainable pre plantera, minion. As much as I like the spider staff I would appreciate if most of my runs could have a bit more variety

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

I don't mind there being rare items, getting a lucky rare item makes that run a bit more special, however... here's the issue I have with the sanguine staff's rarity. You need to be fishing... during a bloodmoon... and when you kill dread it's only a 20% drop chance. This isn't an item that you can just luckily stumble upon its something you have to go out of your way to get, and if you don't get it, well you don't really get anything else.

I can understand that, but I don't have an issue with it's rarity, personally. In fact, I pretty much consider Sanguine Staff, the Slime Staff's close cousin. Even so, my take on the matter doesn't make it ok & there's a potential this is a real issue; I did consider that too. What I think might help, is if Blood Nautilus also dropped Bloody Tears, 100%, if it didn't drop any of it's much rarer loot. That way, a player is guaranteed another try at Blood Moon when they're ready & if they win the fight, it's a pretty "ok" reward, instead of just leaving empty-handed.

On the other hand, I've seen the extremes ppl have gone, just to get a Sanguine Staff & it makes me less sympathetic. After managing to kill that thing, I was super excited to see how everyone else pulled it off & the Terraria YouTube community didn't disappoint... Not only did they make me glad that the weapon was rare, it also made me realize the bag the Developer likely had to dig-into, just to come up with the layers that make it so rare. I wouldn't mind some changes, but the Bloody Tear idea, or something similar, is the farthest I'd ever agree. Also, Chum Buckets are nothing to sneeze at...

If dreadnautelus had like 4 other good drops and would always drop one at random the staff would be just as rare but I would be nowhere near as bothered by it.

I mean, I don't necessarily disagree, but there's two other enemies you can fish up that drop goodies too. I don't analyse things like this in a vacuum. Bloodnautilus is just one of several other possible enemy types, so your likely getting something. On the other hand, if you're grinding in the way I've seen most commonly used on YouTube and reducing the game to an RNG festival for yourself, I can't really sympathize; as it's extremely clear that-this event wasn't designed to be played that way.

There's also the fact that the spider is the only good reliably obtainable pre plantera, minion. As much as I like the spider staff I would appreciate if most of my runs could have a bit more variety

I don't entirely disagree with you, which is why I still like your buff to Hornets/ Imps idea somewhat. Speaking on progression, there is the option to go after the Forbidden Set if you've been gettin' lucky while fishing (trust me, it's do-able). There's always methods of progression skipping, if you've been planning on it from the beginning. Also, I don't remember access to Pirates being changed either, you could easily cheese them & ignore Flying Dutchman. Not only will you get insane amounts of gold, you just might get a powerful Minion/ Mount/ Weapon. I'm sure there's more methods, but I'm not sick of Spider Gear so... I've never really given it much thought.

 

[Yreorel]

The problem with Spider is that it lasts as long as until you get Blade Staff, which is right after

 

[qwerty3.14]

The problem with Spider is that it lasts as long as until you get Blade Staff, which is right after

Well I've literally never used the blade staff since I can't be bothered to farm for super rare items. Although just looking at the stats it seems it would take better advantage of the firecracker, since the firecracker multiplies minion damage and the spider has a higher base. It also has knockback which is quite useful for crowd control when you're farming in early hardmode.

 

[qwerty3.14]

I can understand that, but I don't have an issue with it's rarity, personally. In fact, I pretty much consider Sanguine Staff, the Slime Staff's close cousin. Even so, my take on the matter doesn't make it ok & there's a potential this is a real issue; I did consider that too. What I think might help, is if Blood Nautilus also dropped Bloody Tears, 100%, if it didn't drop any of it's much rarer loot. That way, a player is guaranteed another try at Blood Moon when they're ready & if they win the fight, it's a pretty "ok" reward, instead of just leaving empty-handed.

The thing with the slime staff is that slimes are everywhere! If you play enough terraria you'll eventually just come upon it by luck, there's effectively no way to 'accidentally' find the sanguine staff.

On the other hand, I've seen the extremes ppl have gone, just to get a Sanguine Staff & it makes me less sympathetic. After managing to kill that thing, I was super excited to see how everyone else pulled it off & the Terraria YouTube community didn't disappoint... Not only did they make me glad that the weapon was rare, it also made me realize the bag the Developer likely had to dig-into, just to come up with the layers that make it so rare. I wouldn't mind some changes, but the Bloody Tear idea, or something similar, is the farthest I'd ever agree. Also, Chum Buckets are nothing to sneeze at...

Making bloody tears more reliable to obtain would go a long way, most of the time I run out of bloody tears. Chum buckets... aren't bad but no one gets excited about getting an item they already got in prehardmode. Imagine if your first time killing duke fishron you didn't get any weapons just some master bait? That's literally what it feels like killing dreadnautelus 80% of the time.

I mean, I don't necessarily disagree, but there's two other enemies you can fish up that drop goodies too. I don't analyse things like this in a vacuum. Bloodnautilus is just one of several other possible enemy types, so your likely getting something. On the other hand, if you're grinding in the way I've seen most commonly used on YouTube and reducing the game to an RNG festival for yourself, I can't really sympathize; as it's extremely clear that-this event wasn't designed to be played that way.

Are you refering to the sonar potion? The thing is with a sonar potion you on average I've only gotten 1 dreadnautelus per night, If I spend a bunch of time fighting the other minibosses more likely than not I won't even get a chance to fight dreadnautelus.

Or at least I assume you're talking about the sonar potion I don't watch youtube tutorials.

I don't entirely disagree with you, which is why I still like your buff to Hornets/ Imps idea somewhat. Speaking on progression, there is the option to go after the Forbidden Set if you've been gettin' lucky while fishing (trust me, it's do-able). There's always methods of progression skipping, if you've been planning on it from the beginning. Also, I don't remember access to Pirates being changed either, you could easily cheese them & ignore Flying Dutchman. Not only will you get insane amounts of gold, you just might get a powerful Minion/ Mount/ Weapon. I'm sure there's more methods, but I'm not sick of Spider Gear so... I've never really given it much thought.

The forbidden set is fine, I'm not talking about spider armor though I'm talking about the spider staff in particular.

I'm aware of the pirate staff, the thing is it isn't as good as the spider staff in most situations. Its a very rare drop however although its the kind of rare I don't mind, but I still want to see some other other pre plantera minion that's reliable obtainable and can compare to the spider staff.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

The thing with the slime staff is that slimes are everywhere! If you play enough terraria you'll eventually just come upon it by luck, there's effectively no way to 'accidentally' find the sanguine staff.

That's true, but on the other hand we aren't limited to 1.3.5 anymore, we have a Bestiary. If a player wants to hunt for items, they can, by trying to complete the Bestiary. Heck, I didn't know until a few days ago that there was a Frozen Shield item, at the same time I was suggesting that Summoners in Master Mode hunt down the Frozen Turtle Shell. Part of the fun is learning the game & coming up with your own strategies. I say all that to drive home the fact that, Hardmode is a different ballgame. Blade Staff Minions are pretty much on the same boat as being a possible, random find. However, by this point in the game, it's expected for the player to be much more intentional with their choices.

Killing waves & waves of enemies becomes much more common in Hardmode, so I don't think the method used in making the Slime Staff a rare drop applies appropriately. If the intention is to make the item rare, but intentional, they did a fine job. However, the Blade Staff kinda follows this formula, but with a less common enemy type; as I've said earlier, a player is likely, much more intentional by this point in the game. It's also important to note that the Blade Staff isn't nearly as rare as either of these other Staffs (Slime Staff, Sanguine Staff).

Making bloody tears more reliable to obtain would go a long way, most of the time I run out of bloody tears. Chum buckets... aren't bad but no one gets excited about getting an item they already got in prehardmode. Imagine if your first time killing duke fishron you didn't get any weapons just some master bait? That's literally what it feels like killing dreadnautelus 80% of the time.

I admit that I somewhat agree, but I know the secret to defeating Bloodnautilus pretty fast, so it & The Duke aren't in the same class. There's a certain disparity to seems to exist in Terraria when it comes to measuring difficultly to reward & placing things in the proper tier. I like that the game is fluid in that manner, but it also opens the door for ppl to draw false conclusions based on their own bias (we see it all the time in this forum, even in this post).

In my deductive opinion, Bloodnautilus is technically a Post Mech enemy/ Boss-type. If you've defeated all the Mechs, you have access to just about everything you need to hard-counter that enemy/ Boss. The reason I say this, is to place things into perspective. It could be argued that Bloodnautilus is considered Cholorphite tier, so your options are it, the Underground Jungle or OOA. When put in perspective, the rarity of Sanguine Staff makes much more sense. Now, keep in mind what progression skipping looks like in 1.4.0 as a whole, now that certain things have been rebalanced. It's certainly doable, but it's not supposed to be easy & fits into the current flow of things in 1.4.0...

Are you refering to the sonar potion? The thing is with a sonar potion you on average I've only gotten 1 dreadnautelus per night, If I spend a bunch of time fighting the other minibosses more likely than not I won't even get a chance to fight dreadnautelus.

Well, if you're farming the Bloodnautilus specifically, you're choosing to deal with all the nonsense that comes with it, unfortunately. It's up to us, the players, to find ways around these limitations. It's obvious from how the event works currently, that farming that enemy specifically, isn't intentional. I assume it was to prevent the same disparity we currently have with Duke Fishron. I've been able to fight up to three per night, once I discovered the trick behind it, but I'm sure you'll come up with something clever on your own with time.

The forbidden set is fine, I'm not talking about spider armor though I'm talking about the spider staff in particular.

I bring up the Forbidden Armor Set, only because it bypasses any real need for your Minions to do more DPS & Spiders can be completely ignored. With this kind of progression skip, you could easily make your new focus something like Crystal Vile Shard or Spirit Flame & cheese an event like Pirates for a Minion upgrade; at this point they don't have to be great Minions, just damaging. Even the Blood Thorn will be useful if Blood Moon isn't playing nice with RNG.

I'm aware of the pirate staff, the thing is it isn't as good as the spider staff in most situations. Its a very rare drop however although its the kind of rare I don't mind I want to see some other other pre plantera minion that's reliable obtainable and can compare to the spider staff.

That's why I suggested the Forbidden Armor progression skip method. You can ignore a good amount of the stuff you'd normally rely on in early-Hardmode.

 

[qwerty3.14]

I admit that I somewhat agree, but I know the secret to defeating Bloodnautilus pretty fast, so it & The Duke aren't in the same class. There's a certain disparity to seems to exist in Terraria when it comes to measuring difficultly to reward & placing things in the proper tier. I like that the game is fluid in that manner, but it also opens the door for ppl to draw false conclusions based on their own bias (we see it all the time in this forum, even in this post).

My issue isn't defeating dreadnautelus, my issue is that on my average playthrough I only get to fight 2-3 before running out of bloody tears.

In my deductive opinion, Bloodnautilus is technically a Post Mech enemy/ Boss-type. If you've defeated all the Mechs, you have access to just about everything you need to hard-counter that enemy/ Boss. The reason I say this, is to place things into perspective. It could be argued that Bloodnautilus is considered Cholorphite tier, so your options are it, the Underground Jungle or OOA. When put in perspective, the rarity of Sanguine Staff makes much more sense. Now, keep in mind what progression skipping looks like in 1.4.0 as a whole, now that certain things have been rebalanced. It's certainly doable, but it's not supposed to be easy & fits into the current flow of things in 1.4.0...

The sanguine staff has the same (color)rarity as other pre mech weapons... that is one of the most direct ways for devs to state at what point weapons are intended to be obtained. Nothing you get from the mechanical bosses helps with fishing or increasing the drop rate.