Game Mechanics Improving the Jungle Temple (and the rest of Late Hardmode)

Big Sammich

Duke Fishron
Inspired strongly by this post by user @Stevreng, as well as the myriad of posts along these lines I've seen on the forum recently. This is a long suggestion, so please bear with me.

We can all agree that the Jungle Temple is a pretty boring part of the lategame. It's not very difficult to get through, providing you neutralize the traps, it contains almost no relevant loot, and Golem is notoriously easy. For most players, the Temple is simply something you have to do to spawn the Cultists, and is not seen as a legitimate stepping stone. This has led to a large quantity of posts and suggestions about making the post-Plantera portion of the game more significant, primarily focused on upping the relevance of the optional content that is meant to take place between Golem and Moon Lord. I figured I might throw my hat into the ring and give my own ideas for how this part of the game can be improved.

In this post I am primarily focused on the Temple. This location, I feel, is the primary sticking point that the rest of the lategame is held back by. It is seen by many as the lesser younger brother of the Dungeon, failing to live up to the legacy of it's predecessor in every way. It is less interesting, less impactful, and the consequences of it's completion stretch less far. My goal with this post will be to raise the Temple up to a similar level of importance and interaction as the Dungeon, while not sacrificing the differences in philosophy and game design that makes it Unique. With this in mind, I have split this post into three parts: pre-Plantera changes, proper Temple changes, and post-Golem changes. Please reserve your comments until after you've read the whole post, and keep all of my ideas in mind. All feedback, negative or positive, is appreciated as long as it is constructive. With that out of the way, let's get into it.

First things first: no, I am not suggesting the Temple be accessible before you defeat Plantera. This is something that I think should not be changed at all, and in fact with my suggestions it will become even more important that the Temple be locked away until Plantera is defeated. In the past, I've seen posts asking for a Temple Guardian (such as this one by user @Aceplante) as extra insurance to prevent players from getting into the Temple before they're supposed to. In the state the Temple is in now, I don't think it's necessary, but with my suggested changes, it probably will be. Let's see how that could look.

I think the first room in the Jungle Temple should be made more uniform. Instead of immediately getting into the ordinary Temple generation once you enter the door, the so-called "entrance hall" of the Temple will be a long, plain hallway with no traps or chests in it. The path to get to the rest of the Temple will be a hole in the floor, guaranteed to be at the very end of the hallway. If the player enters this hallway prior to defeating Plantera, the "Temple Guardian" will spawn at the end of the hall, in this case being an enormous mossy boulder made of Lihzahrd Bricks that covers the entire height of the hall. Once the player gets close enough, probably a bit before the boulder would appear on screen, it will begin to roll towards the player, moving faster than a normal boulder but not too fast that a quick player couldn't double back and escape.
If it hits the player, it'll do several thousand points of damage, and similarly to the Dungeon Guardian, this damage cannot be avoided by dodge chances or invincibility. The boulder is also different from regular boulders in that it doesn't break when it hits a wall; when it collides with a wall (likely stopping right against the door,) it will instead sit there, blocking the way in. This, I feel, is a tonally in-line and sensible way of preventing players from entering the Temple early, as well as being a fun reference to the first Indiana Jones movie. Given the existing protections that prevent the player from teleporting inside the Temple, there shouldn't be a way around this boulder.

As I mentioned earlier, the current state of the Temple does not necessitate a "Temple Guardian," but here we come to my first suggestion that would change this. Temple traps should be craftable with Solar Tablet Fragments. This would allow the Temple traps to be renewable, which they currently are not, but it comes with the caveat that players can get them a lot earlier, since you can still fight Lihzhards in and around the Temple before beating Plantera. I don't think this is a problem, though, because as long as the recipe for crafting them prevents their acquisition in pre-Hardmode while also ensuring that the traps will come at a very slow rate before Plantera is beaten, it's acceptable for players to get them in early Hardmode.
My recipe for them would be 25 Solar Tablet Fragments, 2 Adamantite/Titanium Bars, and 25 each of Arrows, Bones, Torches, or Spiky Balls to make the Super Dart Trap, Spear Trap, Flame Trap, and Spiky Ball Trap respectively. Given the low drop chance and low drop quantity of Solar Tablet Fragments, as well as the fact that you don't generally see many Lihzahrds outside of the Temple anyway, it would take a long time for pre-Plantera players to get these traps, but once the Temple is unlocked properly, they'll come much easier. If you don't want them to be obtainable before you're supposed to have them, then we can swap out the Adamantite/Titanium bars for Beetle Husks.

That's it for the changes that are relevant before Plantera is beaten. The Temple should only have major relevance once you can actually go there, so until then it should remain a strange monolith in the Jungle depths.
Let's think for a moment about what the Temple is supposed to be. It's much less of a labyrinth than the Dungeon is, and more of a gauntlet of traps and enemies. It's tight walls, abundance of dangerous traps, and janky terrain make it difficult to progress smoothly through it, and quite honestly I think this part of the Temple is fine. I can definitely see the design philosophy here; at this point in the game, the player is quite capable of free movement and has the tools to overpower standard enemies, so the difficulty comes from loss of movement and damage sources you can't fight back against. Unfortunately, the Temple is simply not difficult enough. The enemies don't work well with the layout, the traps are easily neutralized, and the sources of danger rarely come to the forefront. To me, this says that the Temple needs to force the player to interact with it's contents better. Here are the ways I'd like to do this.

First, I have two proposals for a rework of Lihzahrd Pressure Plates. The first is that they also be allowed to generate on the ceiling. This will prevent players from simply flying or jumping over all of the traps, which as of now is a foolproof strategy. The second is that they also send a signal when they are broken, meaning that deactivating the traps remains a safe option, but it's not longer a free pass through the Temple, since breaking a pressure plate will likely result in damage, or worse, the release of several Spiky Balls restricting the player's movement.

Now for some new enemies to make these reworks more relevant. At certain points throughout the Temple, such as every time the path goes downwards, there will be a special enemy that I will call the Temple Blockade. This enemy is a tall enemy that acts as a wall to the player, preventing their passage further into the Temple. It is both an enemy and a block in that it has a health bar and can be killed, but the player cannot walk through its hitbox. It has no contact damage and no attacks, although it does have a "wave" attack that throws the player back, meaning that it acts purely as a wall.
It is also protected by a magical barrier, just much like the Lunar Pillars. In order to deactivate this barrier, a certain number of Lihzahrd enemies must be killed; let's say 50 enemies. Once the barrier is removed, the Temple Blockade can be destroyed, and the player can advance further into the Temple. Regardless of the size of the Temple, exactly 4 Blockades will spawn in every world, and each time the player will be forced to stop and battle enemies to continue onwards.
I think this accomplishes the goal of forcing interaction with the Temple very well; the player must fight the enemies, and they will likely have to make their way backwards through the hallway they're already in, which will also increase likelihood of interacting with the traps. It also provides a form of training for the Lunar Events, familiarizing the player with the gameplay mechanic that will become more relevant later in the game. The Temple Blockades will not respawn once they are killed, so the player only has to do all of this once.
Lihzahrd_Brick_(placed).png As you can see, there are little eyes on the Temple Blockade's sprite, where the eye-like patterns on Lihzahrd Brick appear. This sprite has the Temple Blockade looking to the left, although it would glare in whatever direction the player is coming from. It is not a friendly fellow.

Destroying a Temple Blockade will also enable the spawning of new Lihzahrd enemies. This will make the Temple combat become more interesting as the player moves further in, because let's be honest, killing 50 Flying Snakes every time you want to progress does not sound like a good time. My idea of this is that each time a Temple Blockade is destroyed, one more enemy will be added to the spawn list, with the exception of the last Blockade, for a total of 5 enemies in the Temple.
  1. Lihzahrd Aberrant. This enemy would begin to spawn after the first Blockade is taken down. It would resemble a squat, deformed Lihzahrd with dim yellow eyes and tattered yellow robes. It always crawls on all fours, and it would have the ability to climb walls like Spider enemies, although I think comparing it to The Possessed is more accurate. It would have the movement stats of a regular Lihzahrd at half health, meaning it is resistant to knockback and moves very quickly. It would have less health than regular Lihzahrds, but more damage and defense.
    It would share its drops with the regular Lihzahrd, but would have a higher chance of dropping the ever-coveted Lizard Egg.
    The_Possessed (1).png

  2. Lihzahrd Conjurer. This would be a caster-type enemy that begins to spawn after the second Blockade is passed. It would look like a taller, thinner Lihzahrd wearing long yellow robes. It follows Caster AI, meaning that it teleports to one place, casts a volley of magical attacks, then teleports again. It would have the least HP of any enemy in the Temple, less than the Flying Snake, as well as very little defense.
    For its attack, it would put its hands together and chant, and three fireballs would appear above its head in a triangle formation. They would hang there for a moment, then quickly fire off one after another towards the player. They would have some homing properties and would pass through blocks, but they can be destroyed by attacks. Melee players be warned, however, as they explode when hit, damaging the player if they're too close. The fireballs would do decent damage and inflict the Hellfire debuff, as well as exploding when they make contact with the player, making them tougher on multiplayer groups.
    The Conjurer would only perform this attack once before teleporting again. Hitting the Conjurer before the fireballs are sent will interrupt the attack, as with all other casters, but once the first fireball is fired off, the others cannot be stopped from firing off as well.
    It would also share the same drops with the regular Lihzahrd, although it would have a greater chance to drop Solar Tablet Fragments, as well as dropping them in higher quantities.
    Lihzahrd.png
  3. Living Statue. This would be a mimic-type enemy, although rather than resembling a chest, this one looks like one of the Lihzahrd Statues that appear in the Temple. It would only spawn after the third Blockade is felled. It can look like any of the three Lihzahrd Statues, and will stand motionless in place until the player gets close, whereupon it will awaken, its eyes glowing yellow and the cracks in its body illuminated by the energy powering it. It would have the highest HP of any normal enemy in the Temple by a large margin, having four times the HP of a standard Lihzahrd, as well as substantial defense.
    It behaves much like the Paladin, walking semi-slowly towards the player, completely immune to all knockback, and when it gets close enough, it will stop walking and begin to fire lasers from its eyes at the player. These would be the same lasers fired by Golem during it's boss fight. Attacking the Statue would interrupt its laser attack, but it will continue to walk towards the player, which could be troublesome because its melee damage is higher than it's laser damage.
    It would be rarer than the other enemies, and only a limited number can exist at a time, but in return, it would have a much higher chance of dropping Lihzahrd Power Cells.
    Lihzahrd_Guardian_Statue_(placed) (1).png
These enemies would make navigating the Temple much more of a daunting task, but it would also keep things interesting, as well as providing a greater challenge to the player. Compared to the post-Plantera Dungeon, the Temple has always been the less difficult, but with these new enemies, it may provide a stronger incentive for the player to power up before arriving.

Then we come to Golem himself. There has long been talk of Golem being a disappointingly easy boss, and fixing this problem has not proven easy, as most players have so thoroughly memorized Golem's attack patterns that even upping his damage cannot do enough anymore. However, I feel that there is a simple fix. Just take some of the mobility increases he receives in For The Worthy and put them in the regular game. He attacks faster, jumps higher, moves faster, everything. That's really all there is to it. When I played Legendary mode, I was taken aback by how much more difficult Golem was than I had expected, and I think the majority of this was how much harder it was to dodge his attacks, even if I thought I knew what to do. His mechanic of making the room significantly darker cannot be discounted, but I feel that should remain a secret seed exclusive. Golem already does significant damage, so making it harder to avoid that damage is all that needs to be done.
This section covers the way that the rest of the world responds to the defeat of Golem. While none of this applies to the Temple, I still feel that it is relevant to discuss, as this is where all of the remaining progression up until the Pillars falls. There is a lot of optional content that can be skipped between Golem and the Lunar Events, and while I don't believe most players skip all of this content, I do think it could be brought to the forefront a bit more.

First of all, the Pumpkin Moon and Frost Moon should be moved to be post-Golem by requiring Beetle Husks to craft the medallions. Replace the Hallowed Bars and Silk with Beetle Husks in the respective recipes, and we're good to go. No other changes are necessary. This should be done to make progression smoother and healthier in the game. Now, the relevant upgrades for the Temple all lie in the post-Plantera Dungeon, and the much stronger gear gotten from the Pumpkin and Frost Moons cannot be gotten until later. By separating upgrades, progression becomes more streamlined, and previously meta-irrelevant weapons may come to the forefront when their competitors are moved out of the way. There will be a better reason now to get weapons like the Spectre Staff and Tiki Armor because other, stronger gear won't be immediately available. Additionally, these events would be brought to the attention of new players better, as players are likely to check with the Guide everything that can be done with Beetle Husks as soon as they can, and they will see the two medallions on the list right away.

Second of all, Martian Probes should have a greater chance of spawning on the Surface until the first Martian Invasion is completed. Martian Madness is a very powerful event with very relevant gear, but it's a bit out of the way. Most players don't encounter a Martian Probe unless they go looking for them, which means that it is very easy to skip the event entirely. Having the Probe spawn in places the player is more likely to be would circumvent this issue, but for repeat invasions, you'd need to go looking. I know that Martian Probes already have increased spawn rates before Martian Madness is completed, but to be frank I don't think it's enough, although it doesn't need to be hugely more common. Just set the spawnrate on the surface to be equal to that of the Space layer, and then repeal that once the event is completed for the first time.

Lunatic Cultist also needs some attention. I've seen many posts complaining that the Pillar weapons outclass everything else post-Golem, and since Cultist is such an easy boss, it's too easy to get them, allowing most players to just bumrush the Pillars and ignore other optional content. I don't necessarily agree with this idea, but then again I'm someone who very much enjoys optional content, and I choose not to do the Cultist and the Pillars until I've gotten all the gear I want from Empress of Light, Duke Fishron, and the lategame events like Martian Madness. However, I see the wisdom in wanting to better incentivize optional content, so I've come up with a couple of ideas.
  • First, slow down the summoning of the Lunatic Cultist. This solution would mostly apply to new players who don't know everything that can be found in the game, alerting them that progressing through Cultist and on to the Lunar Events will send their world down a one-way street until the events are completed. I would do this by changing the summoning process of the boss. Killing the four cultists at the Dungeon entrance will result in the Mysterious Tablet glowing and flying upwards to hover in the air above the Dungeon entrance, accompanied by the chat message, The tablet hums ominously with celestial energy... are you sure about this? Going upwards and attacking the Tablet directly will cause it to crack into several pieces, whereupon the Lunatic Cultist will appear in the air next to it, absorb its energy, and begin the fight. This effectively gives players an "out" if they don't want to start the Lunar events yet, as well as indicating to new players that this isn't something to be done lightly. Leaving the Mysterious Tablet alone for a short while will result in it and the cultists returning to normal.
    I've seen several suggestions that said that the Pumpkin and Frost Moons should be required to summon the Lunar Events, but I don't agree that this is necessary. As it is now, no main-game progression is locked behind events, and the only required bosses you have to summon yourself are (arguably) Plantera and Golem, both of which are incredibly obvious and not at all hidden, whereas the Frost and Pumpkin Moons need to be initiated by the player after crafting an item. It's just counter-intuitive, although I do understand why people want them to be more integrated into progression.

  • We also should make Lunatic Cultist harder - much harder. Cultist currently stands in one place and attacks the player with relatively weak magic attacks that are highly predictable, and half of them can't go through blocks. I propose a major rework. For starters, the boss needs to be much more mobile. Take advantage of it's small size and nature as a mage. Cultist should never be standing still unless it is summoning an attack. It should summon the lightning bolt sphere, then start dodging and zipping around while the sphere fires lightning at you. Teleport, hurl some fireballs while still moving, then teleport again, throw the ice star, go back to dodging, et cetera. The boss should only be standing still when doing its ritual circle attack.
    The attacks ought to do more damage, too. Most of Cultist's attacks do less damage than Plantera's. Why? In most playthroughs, I can beat Cultist with pre-Golem weapons, and I don't think this should be the case. Lunatic Cultist should feel like another player in how they fight you, not like they do now. It's the only small boss in the whole game, and that is simply not utilized well at all. Ideally, the Lunatic Cultist is the hardest boss next to Moon Lord, or at least way up there on the list, but I rarely ever struggle with Cultist.
Speaking of bosses, I would also like to propose a slight adjustment to Empress of Light. I'm not alone in seeing Empress as equivalent to Duke Fishron, but they aren't treated equally by the game. Therefore, I suggest that the Prismatic Lacewing should be allowed to spawn at any point in Hardmode, not just post-Plantera. This would obviously make it possible for players to get extremely powerful gear right at the beginning of Hardmode, but that's already true with Duke, who drops weapons that contend with Pillar weapons. Empress is not any easier for most players, and I think it would be very good to provide another parallel between the two bosses. Alternatively, we could change Duke Fishron and have Truffle Worms only spawn after Plantera is beaten, but I think the first method is better and more interesting. I will admit that this is not really a problem, since most players don't do Duke early, but I wanted to bring it up regardless.

That's all I have to say on this subject. I will return at a later date to add sprites for the enemies I suggested. I wanted to also add some new items to the Temple, but this post is long enough as it is, and I had no good ideas at the moment that haven't already been said by other people, such as in this thread by user @_Noodle. I apologize for the long post, but as I wrote I realized I had more to say on the subject than I thought. Let me know what you think!
 
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I agree with all of these, except the EoL early spawn. In order to summon DF you have to actively try to summon him, but for EoL you just have to accidentaly kill the lacewing. It would be better if the truffle worm shimmers into the Lacewing.
 
I agree with all of these, except the EoL early spawn. In order to summon DF you have to actively try to summon him, but for EoL you just have to accidentaly kill the lacewing. It would be better if the truffle worm shimmers into the Lacewing.
Maybe... but to be fair, you'd only make that mistake so many times. Lacewings aren't that common.
 
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Edit: reformatted the post for better readability. It should be easier to digest now!
 
Now, the relevant upgrades for the Temple all lie in the post-Plantera Dungeon, and the much stronger gear gotten from the Pumpkin and Frost Moons cannot be gotten until later. By separating upgrades, progression becomes more streamlined, and previously meta-irrelevant weapons may come to the forefront when their competitors are moved out of the way. There will be a better reason now to get weapons like the Spectre Staff and Tiki Armor because other, stronger gear won't be immediately available.
What you describe here is something i call "post plantera syndrome" but this isnt the way to go about it

Post Plant Syndrome happens because whatever you killed Plantera with is good enough to use for the golem, and then golem drops weapons better than what came before, that you can use to quickly get something much better than anything dropped by Plantera, Dungeon, and Golem.

The only other thing to use Dungeon content on is the Dungeon itself (where you get these things in the first place) and Solar Eclipses (and let's be real here, you'll do them post golem, because you'll summon them with Solar Tablet to get Celestial Stone)

The fix here is to make golem actually difficult and add one more thing or two to do in Post Plantera. This is what gives Post Plantera items a reason to be sought for.

Tier Locking the moons doesnt do much of anything; the only real reason someone would do them before Golem in the first place is if they actually found Golem to be harder and... that's not the case lol

Like seriously doing these events with Plantera or even Dungeon Drops goes horribly wrong most of the time
Additionally, these events would be brought to the attention of new players better, as players are likely to check with the Guide everything that can be done with Beetle Husks as soon as they can, and they will see the two medallions on the list right away.
they are crafted with Ectoplasm, the main material of the Dungeon, that people who rely on the guide will already check the recipes for

Second of all, Martian Probes should have a greater chance of spawning on the Surface until the first Martian Invasion is completed. Martian Madness is a very powerful event with very relevant gear, but it's a bit out of the way.
Right after killing golem you can summon martian madness, die a bunch of times and come out with weapons as strong as what you get from Duke/Empress/Frost Moon

martian madness has issues that there isnt one simple fix for, but if anything it needs to be harder to summon.
We also should make Lunatic Cultist harder - much harder.
this, and just this.

if a new player summons an actually difficult cultist too early, they'll get destroyed and figure they need to save him for later. That'll fix almost every issue with the Pillars from a progression standpoint
 
It would be better if the truffle worm shimmers into the Lacewing.
And/or Lacewings could start spawning after defeating one Mechanical boss. This would prevent new Hardmode players from accidentally spawning EoL while also making her available sooner.
 
if a new player summons an actually difficult cultist too early, they'll get destroyed and figure they need to save him for later. That'll fix almost every issue with the Pillars from a progression standpoint
I guess you're right, difficult Cultist is the only post-Plantera change that really needs to happen. Tier locking the Moons wouldn't do anything but stopping people from trying, and that doesn't accomplish much that my suggestions to make the Temple itself more difficult wouldn't do. A difficult Temple would encourage the players to check out the Dungeon first, and weapons like the Shadowbeam Staff and Paladin's Hammer would be very useful in my revamped Temple. Then you'd do Golem with Dungeon gear and get Golem stuff, and use that to do the next set of objectives.

My reason for making Martian Madness easier to summon the first time was to make sure players couldn't miss it, that's all. You may have a point about making it harder to summon after you've already done it, though.

And/or Lacewings could start spawning after defeating one Mechanical boss. This would prevent new Hardmode players from accidentally spawning EoL while also making her available sooner.
Personally, I would consider getting smacked by an early EoL a learning experience. But I do agree that having her appear on you by accident could be very unpleasant.
 
Personally, I would consider getting smacked by an early EoL a learning experience. But I do agree that having her appear on you by accident could be very unpleasant.
If the player saw the Lacewing before they killed it then yes it would be a learning experience. However, if a brand new player didn’t notice the Lacewing it would seem like EoL just spawned out of nowhere. This could make the new player avoid the Hallow at night or the Hallow all together.
 
If the player saw the Lacewing before they killed it then yes it would be a learning experience. However, if a brand new player didn’t notice the Lacewing it would seem like EoL just spawned out of nowhere. This could make the new player avoid the Hallow at night or the Hallow all together.
Fair enough. We don't want players to get punished for things that aren't their fault.
 
when it collides with a wall (likely stopping right against the door,) it will instead sit there, blocking the way in. This, I feel, is a tonally in-line and sensible way of preventing players from entering the Temple early, as well as being a fun reference to the first Indiana Jones movie. Given the existing protections that prevent the player from teleporting inside the Temple, there shouldn't be a way around this boulder.
i will shorten most of these messages so it wouldn't spam the chat, anyways... i feel like this is creative but isn't it a little out of place?
the boulder will surely be an enemy instead of a normal block, so it can despawn/respawn and not stay there... and it stops spawning after plantera
this is cool and all... but it needs a text indicator imo!
"the temple's ancient mechanisms are blocking/stopping you from entering"
or "a powerful jungle creature is not allowing your entrance to this temple" which indicates plantera as the "powerful jungle creature" thing is also mentioned in biome key stuff!
As I mentioned earlier, the current state of the Temple does not necessitate a "Temple Guardian," but here we come to my first suggestion that would change this. Temple traps should be craftable with Solar Tablet Fragments. This would allow the Temple traps to be renewable, which they currently are not, but it comes with the caveat that players can get them a lot earlier, since you can still fight Lihzhards in and around the Temple before beating Plantera. I don't think this is a problem, though, because as long as the recipe for crafting them prevents their acquisition in pre-Hardmode while also ensuring that the traps will come at a very slow rate before Plantera is beaten, it's acceptable for players to get them in early Hardmode.
My recipe for them would be 25 Solar Tablet Fragments, 2 Adamantite/Titanium Bars, and 25 each of Arrows, Bones, Torches, or Spiky Balls to make the Super Dart Trap, Spear Trap, Flame Trap, and Spiky Ball Trap respectively.
just add lihzahrd bricks into the recipe...?
also your recipe is pre mechanical bosses! absolutely cannot, it should be chlorophyte bars because you can cheese destroyer with the spiky balls probably, also you can easily make some form of arena where the bosses just get hit by these traps a lot
Given the low drop chance and low drop quantity of Solar Tablet Fragments, as well as the fact that you don't generally see many Lihzahrds outside of the Temple anyway, it would take a long time for pre-Plantera players to get these traps, but once the Temple is unlocked properly, they'll come much easier. If you don't want them to be obtainable before you're supposed to have them, then we can swap out the Adamantite/Titanium bars for Beetle Husks.
beetle husks are weird to add there, just make it lihzahrd bricks as i said
First, I have two proposals for a rework of Lihzahrd Pressure Plates. The first is that they also be allowed to generate on the ceiling. This will prevent players from simply flying or jumping over all of the traps, which as of now is a foolproof strategy. The second is that they also send a signal when they are broken, meaning that deactivating the traps remains a safe option, but it's not longer a free pass through the Temple, since breaking a pressure plate will likely result in damage, or worse, the release of several Spiky Balls restricting the player's movement.
there's a flame thrower trap in there iirc, if that activates on its own instead of being something player activated, i think it'd be also a really cool thing to make the temple feel harder and have the player not regen with a debuff instead of just bleed
temple much more of a daunting task, but it would also keep things interesting, as well as providing a greater challenge to the player. Compared to the post-Plantera Dungeon, the Temple has always been the less difficult, but with these new enemies, it may provide a stronger incentive for the player to power up before arriving.
i have no comment on enemies, as i'm not an expert at that field... maybe yet
Then we come to Golem himself. There has long been talk of Golem being a disappointingly easy boss, and fixing this problem has not proven easy, as most players have so thoroughly memorized Golem's attack patterns that even upping his damage cannot do enough anymore. However, I feel that there is a simple fix. Just take some of the mobility increases he receives in For The Worthy and put them in the regular game. He attacks faster, jumps higher, moves faster, everything. That's really all there is to it. When I played Legendary mode, I was taken aback by how much more difficult Golem was than I had expected, and I think the majority of this was how much harder it was to dodge his attacks, even if I thought I knew what to do. His mechanic of making the room significantly darker cannot be discounted, but I feel that should remain a secret seed exclusive. Golem already does significant damage, so making it harder to avoid that damage is all that needs to be done.
i want golem to kinda... defy the temple's rules
he should have a real arena prepared, which allows for mostly free movement
but have a bit of a different AI and those increased speeds
it'd make for a rougher fight because the area wouldn't be THAT big but it wouldn't be so small that you would unequip your wings
This section covers the way that the rest of the world responds to the defeat of Golem. While none of this applies to the Temple, I still feel that it is relevant to discuss, as this is where all of the remaining progression up until the Pillars falls. There is a lot of optional content that can be skipped between Golem and the Lunar Events, and while I don't believe most players skip all of this content, I do think it could be brought to the forefront a bit more.
the frost/pumpkin moon events, duke fishron and empress were all designed to be post golem difficulty
so i imagine actually moving them there might be good
martian stuff idk
i personally don't really like the martian event, but that's just personal preference
i will say though, it should be more accessable to those who like it and those who don't want it in an equal way, i would love an increase spawn rate of the probe, but having its health reduced to make it so players wouldn't have to worry about doing it too quickly because it's just like a pirate invasion to them
I don't necessarily agree with this idea
same
also please add the text "the ancient cultists rise at the dungeon once more" to indicate his arrival
tablet commits forgive you blah blah blah, some other cool stuff blah blah blah
nothin to say about this one
  • We also should make Lunatic Cultist harder - much harder.
i kinda like cultists weaker side design, why? because the cultist was not ready at all + they were trying to summon moonlord while at it, or i guess the pillars
i imagine making him more mobile would make the fight more interesting, and add on the fact that he's in a hurry, and doesn't want to deal with the player's stuff
here's a weird proposal. make the cultist a timed fight, this time a 6 minute fight, where if you do not succeed in killing the cultist
the celestial pillars launch from the sky killing the player with a shockwave that kills all players if in multiplayer
weird suggestion but it would add on to the whole lore thing
Speaking of bosses, I would also like to propose a slight adjustment to Empress of Light. I'm not alone in seeing Empress as equivalent to Duke Fishron, but they aren't treated equally by the game. Therefore, I suggest that the Prismatic Lacewing should be allowed to spawn at any point in Hardmode, not just post-Plantera. This would obviously make it possible for players to get extremely powerful gear right at the beginning of Hardmode, but that's already true with Duke, who drops weapons that contend with Pillar weapons. Empress is not any easier for most players, and I think it would be very good to provide another parallel between the two bosses. Alternatively, we could change Duke Fishron and have Truffle Worms only spawn after Plantera is beaten, but I think the first method is better and more interesting. I will admit that this is not really a problem, since most players don't do Duke early, but I wanted to bring it up regardless.
i absolutely don't agree with the first part
while yes, a good chunk of players see duke as a somewhat same difficulty boss as empress
empress gives you stuff like soaring insignia in expert mode, which completely breaks early hardmode
"but you get to shred bosses with their weapon"
now imagine that but you get to fly infnitely, removing most of the risks in the fights

leave both as they are rn, i think they fit just nicely, duke is there for skillful players who want to breeze through early hardmode
and empress is there as a nice boss for hallowed so you've something to fight later on, and terraprisma's whole existance
as tewu shows in this video even daytime empress is possible (although it requires a LOT of skill) you should not play around in a sandbox game thinking stuff like this will be very simple and fine

speed runners would love this
 
i will shorten most of these messages so it wouldn't spam the chat, anyways... i feel like this is creative but isn't it a little out of place?
the boulder will surely be an enemy instead of a normal block, so it can despawn/respawn and not stay there... and it stops spawning after plantera
this is cool and all... but it needs a text indicator imo!
"the temple's ancient mechanisms are blocking/stopping you from entering"
or "a powerful jungle creature is not allowing your entrance to this temple" which indicates plantera as the "powerful jungle creature" thing is also mentioned in biome key stuff!
I must have not explained my idea properly. The boulder would be an enemy but it acts like a block, meaning you can't walk through it. Of course the boulder would despawn if you left and reappear at the end of the hallway if you return before beating Plantera. It's supposed to act like the Dungeon Guardian, but more Temple-themed.

And no, I don't think it needs a text indicator. While it's true that the boulder doesn't on its own communicate what needs to be done to open the Temple, the fact that Plantera drops the Temple Key is indication enough that you've reach the point where you can enter the temple.
just add lihzahrd bricks into the recipe...?
also your recipe is pre mechanical bosses! absolutely cannot, it should be chlorophyte bars because you can cheese destroyer with the spiky balls probably, also you can easily make some form of arena where the bosses just get hit by these traps a lot

beetle husks are weird to add there, just make it lihzahrd bricks as i said
Yes, this would be pre-mech. I said in my post that I thought that was OK. The recipe I suggested was expensive enough that even if you intentionally farmed for Solar Tablet Fragments pre-mechs, it would take a very long time to get enough to make traps, and at that point it would be faster to just fight the boss normally.

As for the post-Golem recipe, I included Beetle Husks because I was kind of on a kick of wanting to make Beetle Husks more useful, but yes, Lihzahrd Bricks would be more sensible. However, Beetle Husks are infinitely renewable.
there's a flame thrower trap in there iirc, if that activates on its own instead of being something player activated, i think it'd be also a really cool thing to make the temple feel harder and have the player not regen with a debuff instead of just bleed
That's not a bad thought, but Flame Traps are (in my experience) the rarest of the traps in the Temple, so having it just be those that activate on their own likely wouldn't impact players very often. And then there's also the problem of how the Flame Trap would act once the player can harvest them.
i want golem to kinda... defy the temple's rules
he should have a real arena prepared, which allows for mostly free movement
but have a bit of a different AI and those increased speeds
it'd make for a rougher fight because the area wouldn't be THAT big but it wouldn't be so small that you would unequip your wings
A whole Golem rework wouldn't go amiss, but in this post I just wanted to focus on simple improvements. Also, I don't see why Golem should defy the Temple's rules. He MAKES the rules, doesn't he? He's the focus of the Temple's worship.
i personally don't really like the martian event, but that's just personal preference
i will say though, it should be more accessable to those who like it and those who don't want it in an equal way, i would love an increase spawn rate of the probe, but having its health reduced to make it so players wouldn't have to worry about doing it too quickly because it's just like a pirate invasion to them
That's a good idea. I might even say don't worry about the spawn rate; you can get probes pretty quickly just by hanging out in Space at the edge of the world. But reducing its HP to make it easier to kill is a good idea.
also please add the text "the ancient cultists rise at the dungeon once more" to indicate his arrival
I'm neutral on this. On the one hand, not everything needs to be announced or told to the player, but on the other hand, the cultists appearing at the Dungeon entrance is one of the only things like this that isn't announced, and that is a little weird. I could take it or leave it, to be honest.
i kinda like cultists weaker side design, why? because the cultist was not ready at all + they were trying to summon moonlord while at it, or i guess the pillars
i imagine making him more mobile would make the fight more interesting, and add on the fact that he's in a hurry, and doesn't want to deal with the player's stuff
here's a weird proposal. make the cultist a timed fight, this time a 6 minute fight, where if you do not succeed in killing the cultist
the celestial pillars launch from the sky killing the player with a shockwave that kills all players if in multiplayer
weird suggestion but it would add on to the whole lore thing
This is where I disagree the hardest with you. What makes you think the Cultist "wasn't ready"? Why do you think he's in a hurry? And the suggestion to make it a timed fight isn't a good one. No boss fight currently in the game takes 6 minutes to finish, and Cultist is certainly not about to become one. That time limit would not add any pressure at all. The Cultist needs to be more difficult, because as it currently is, Cultist is too easy for players to want to do a lot of post-Plantera content. You should be encouraged much, much more strongly to get better gear instead of just going directly for the Pillars.
i absolutely don't agree with the first part
while yes, a good chunk of players see duke as a somewhat same difficulty boss as empress
empress gives you stuff like soaring insignia in expert mode, which completely breaks early hardmode
"but you get to shred bosses with their weapon"
now imagine that but you get to fly infnitely, removing most of the risks in the fights
leave both as they are rn, i think they fit just nicely, duke is there for skillful players who want to breeze through early hardmode
and empress is there as a nice boss for hallowed so you've something to fight later on, and terraprisma's whole existance
as tewu shows in this video even daytime empress is possible (although it requires a LOT of skill) you should not play around in a sandbox game thinking stuff like this will be very simple and fine
I'd like to mention that beating Duke early does this too; you get the Shrimpy Truffle, which can be far stronger than the Soaring Insignia if you use it in the rain or set up a water arena. But other people have said they don't like the idea of Empress being accessible early, and I'm beginning to agree with them. Not for balance purposes, because the weapons from Duke are comparable to the ones dropped by Empress, meaning the issue of balance wouldn't be made worse, but because it's pretty easy to accidentally kill a Prismatic Lacewing, and it wouldn't be very fun to get tossed around by an unexpected Empress while you're just trying to make Pixie Wings.

Also, if someone is good enough to kill daytime Empress with pre-mech gear, I say they've earned it. But that's neither here nor there. It wouldn't do to have Empress be accessible that early.
 
leave both as they are rn, i think they fit just nicely, duke is there for skillful players who want to breeze through early hardmode
and empress is there as a nice boss for hallowed so you've something to fight later on, and terraprisma's whole existance
as tewu shows in this video even daytime empress is possible (although it requires a LOT of skill) you should not play around in a sandbox game thinking stuff like this will be very simple and fine
if you can kill empress (let alone day empress) early on, you are more than capable enough of killing the mechs and plantera normally

just because Terraprisma is now possible to get premech doesnt mean that every person ever will get it instantly and without difficlty
 
My biggest suggestion for both the dungeon and this:
Dungeon brick to require skeletron to be defeated to be able to mine it.
If skeletron is defeated can mine with any pickaxe including the tin/copper pickaxe.
Lihzard Brick to have similar functionality except to require Golem to be defeated instead since the player does not have access to those blocks before Golem.
If Golem is defeated, any pickaxe tin/copper or better can mine it.
 
My biggest suggestion for both the dungeon and this:
Dungeon brick to require skeletron to be defeated to be able to mine it.
If skeletron is defeated can mine with any pickaxe including the tin/copper pickaxe.
Lihzard Brick to have similar functionality except to require Golem to be defeated instead since the player does not have access to those blocks before Golem.
If Golem is defeated, any pickaxe tin/copper or better can mine it.
Not a bad idea, although Golem drops the Picksaw, so you're rarely going to be stuck unable to mind Lihzahrd Bricks.
 
I must have not explained my idea properly. The boulder would be an enemy but it acts like a block, meaning you can't walk through it. Of course the boulder would despawn if you left and reappear at the end of the hallway if you return before beating Plantera. It's supposed to act like the Dungeon Guardian, but more Temple-themed.

And no, I don't think it needs a text indicator. While it's true that the boulder doesn't on its own communicate what needs to be done to open the Temple, the fact that Plantera drops the Temple Key is indication enough that you've reach the point where you can enter the temple.
i guess that's fair enough, i just thought people might waste their time with the temple if they encounter it, let's say pre hardmode
and just go to it every while to see if the boulder is gone
also tbh, i think instead of a temple key
maybe a like, *special wire cutter* or something could be added instead
it cuts the wires of the boulder trap, decativating it
but it would remove the temple indicator sadly
Yes, this would be pre-mech. I said in my post that I thought that was OK. The recipe I suggested was expensive enough that even if you intentionally farmed for Solar Tablet Fragments pre-mechs, it would take a very long time to get enough to make traps, and at that point it would be faster to just fight the boss normally.
you underestimate terrarians lol
also the recipe is not that expensive, 5 adam/titanium bars, and add a dart trap to the super dart trap recipe
i get that players will make these in bulk, but you can get a full titanium/adamantite gear + other stuff easily
As for the post-Golem recipe, I included Beetle Husks because I was kind of on a kick of wanting to make Beetle Husks more useful, but yes, Lihzahrd Bricks would be more sensible. However, Beetle Husks are infinitely renewable.
*there is no way you're running out of lihzahrd bricks*
That's not a bad thought, but Flame Traps are (in my experience) the rarest of the traps in the Temple, so having it just be those that activate on their own likely wouldn't impact players very often. And then there's also the problem of how the Flame Trap would act once the player can harvest them.
they are the rarest, and i don't really know how they'd work after a player places them,
A whole Golem rework wouldn't go amiss, but in this post I just wanted to focus on simple improvements. Also, I don't see why Golem should defy the Temple's rules. He MAKES the rules, doesn't he? He's the focus of the Temple's worship.
it's called the lihzahrd temple for a reason!
This is where I disagree the hardest with you. What makes you think the Cultist "wasn't ready"? Why do you think he's in a hurry? And the suggestion to make it a timed fight isn't a good one. No boss fight currently in the game takes 6 minutes to finish, and Cultist is certainly not about to become one. That time limit would not add any pressure at all. The Cultist needs to be more difficult, because as it currently is, Cultist is too easy for players to want to do a lot of post-Plantera content. You should be encouraged much, much more strongly to get better gear instead of just going directly for the Pillars.
cultist is a really unique boss, the 6 minutes part is mostly to nerf homing weapons further, as they deal less damage already but the timer would also make it so you can't stall far away and just wait till cultist dies
also the cultist wasn't ready/was in a hurry because he *barely* (as said by the lore book or whatever) was able to summon the pillars in time
don't you think that implied he was doing it asap?
because if he wasn't (ignoring kill speed ingame and such) the pillars would've spawned, and i chose 6 minutes cuz that's 6 ingame hours, i think that'd be enough to summon them no?
Also, if someone is good enough to kill daytime Empress with pre-mech gear, I say they've earned it. But that's neither here nor there. It wouldn't do to have Empress be accessible that early.
i guess so
i feel like empress was more designed to be post plant than duke is, i can't explain it but maybe if i think more later

also for my own suggestions, the new temple should be critically designed to make the player feel like there's a boss in the end of it
not just some hall way you go through
i know that players will want to go through to know what's in the end, i myself died multiple times in my first run just trying to figure out what's inside at the end
but (maybe because of golem's underwhelming performance) i felt like the boss room just came out of nowhere
and it felt like the rooms before it, just some random walls in random Y positions and then the altar with some statues
just needs a little more to make it feel like a boss arena, which is why i suggested the whole arena thing with golem
 
i guess that's fair enough, i just thought people might waste their time with the temple if they encounter it, let's say pre hardmode
and just go to it every while to see if the boulder is gone
also tbh, i think instead of a temple key
maybe a like, *special wire cutter* or something could be added instead
it cuts the wires of the boulder trap, decativating it
but it would remove the temple indicator sadly
People who encounter the Dungeon Guardian don't go back to see if it's gone until they have a solid reason, that being Skeletron's defeat. I doubt people will do the same for the boulder in the Temple. But then again, we can't really know until we see for ourselves.
you underestimate terrarians lol
also the recipe is not that expensive, 5 adam/titanium bars, and add a dart trap to the super dart trap recipe
i get that players will make these in bulk, but you can get a full titanium/adamantite gear + other stuff easily
5 Adamantite/Titanium bars is also fine, but I balk at putting a dart trap in there. Dart traps are non-renewable.
*there is no way you're running out of lihzahrd bricks*
Fair enough. There's a lot of them.
it's called the lihzahrd temple for a reason!
I'm not sure what your point is here. Care to explain?
cultist is a really unique boss, the 6 minutes part is mostly to nerf homing weapons further, as they deal less damage already but the timer would also make it so you can't stall far away and just wait till cultist dies
also the cultist wasn't ready/was in a hurry because he *barely* (as said by the lore book or whatever) was able to summon the pillars in time
don't you think that implied he was doing it asap?
because if he wasn't (ignoring kill speed ingame and such) the pillars would've spawned, and i chose 6 minutes cuz that's 6 ingame hours, i think that'd be enough to summon them no?
I think him "barely" summoning the Pillars in time more refers to the fact that the player was too slow, rather than that the Cultist was rushing. The way the cultists are encountered implies that the Lunatic Cultist was planning on fighting you, but he needed probable cause first, or else his minions being killed was part of his plan. But either way, my point stands that Cultist needs to be much harder, and the best way is to make him more mobile.
also for my own suggestions, the new temple should be critically designed to make the player feel like there's a boss in the end of it
not just some hall way you go through
i know that players will want to go through to know what's in the end, i myself died multiple times in my first run just trying to figure out what's inside at the end
but (maybe because of golem's underwhelming performance) i felt like the boss room just came out of nowhere
and it felt like the rooms before it, just some random walls in random Y positions and then the altar with some statues
just needs a little more to make it feel like a boss arena, which is why i suggested the whole arena thing with golem
Not a bad thought. But plenty of other bosses come out of nowhere. The Jungle doesn't prepare you for bee hives, or for Plantera. The Ocean doesn't hint at Duke Fishron at all. While the Temple could benefit from a little bit of warning, the same could be said for a lot of the game, and personally I don't think it's a problem to have the boss arena come out of nowhere, as long as the boss itself doesn't ambush you.
 
To be honest, all of this sounds cool, buut
The temple guardian should be Golems head, from the boss fight. They steadily spawn, up to 20, and they dont despawn until you die.
Ahhh, what qre these*mirrors*
And then thy fly back to your house.
Tbh, after plantera, you can fight Moon lord in 20 minutes. I think it does need some of this. The temple just needs better loot in its chests, like the dungeon m the fact that is has 2 enemies is not good, compared to the Countless enemies the Dungeon has.
 
To be honest, all of this sounds cool, buut
The temple guardian should be Golems head, from the boss fight. They steadily spawn, up to 20, and they dont despawn until you die.
Ahhh, what qre these*mirrors*
And then thy fly back to your house.
Tbh, after plantera, you can fight Moon lord in 20 minutes. I think it does need some of this. The temple just needs better loot in its chests, like the dungeon m the fact that is has 2 enemies is not good, compared to the Countless enemies the Dungeon has.
Wouldn't you rather something more unique than just Golem heads? We don't want to make the Temple exactly like the Dungeon.
 
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