In-depth Hardmode weapon tier list

[SsIras]

I can't replicate your test if you don't list the items you're using. I'm gonna make a guess & likely be wrong, so you can see why that's an important factor.

• With what little information you've provided, I'm assuming you have all Twin Staff Minions x5?
• There's no way I can tell what Armor you're wearing, it could be Tiki Armor or Spooky Armor, seeing as how you don't have any extra Minion buffs?
• I don't recognize the item in slot #7, is that anything I should concern myself with, at all?

Once I know these things, I can run a proper counter-test & we'll see. I can't really give you any advice with the so-little information you've given me.

I did use a few other setups to test, the one I'm using it the images is Spider Armor + Necromantic Scroll, the only other thing increasing my damage is Celestial Shell

I also tried Stardust Armor, Bee Armor, Spooky Armor, Papyrus Scarab, Pygmy Staff and Stardust Dragon.
I didn't try to change modifiers for the whip.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

"has great synergy with minions" is true for literally every whip so that's not something unique to Cool Whip at all. In fact, this is the only whip in the game that doesn't directly synergise with them, so it's about as synergetic as any other non-summoner weapon in the game.

Your opinion is valid, but we're testing stuff in real time at the moment so, this doesn't really serve a purpose. I'm curious as to why you opened with this?

You are not showing any synergy in the screenshot by the way, you are just attacking the same target.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean, I asked Baconfry to run a test on Blood Nautilus & he was having issue, so I downgraded the test to something more manageable like Goblin Shark, this test was organic. There's no way I could've gone in with the intentions to prove synergy, it only became a people-pleasing contest once other people invested their horse in the race. There was no way I could've planned for this, so this entire part is very confusing.

But in this test you made here, the Cool Whip and all your minions are attacking the Goblin Shark. The DPS on the other enemies is coming from the Clinger Staff and Queen Spider on the right, not from test. Additionally, in your test against the Dutchman the Whip was only doing around or less than 200 DPS to each of the 4 cannons; for a crowd control weapon that's not very special, especially when the weapon in question has super short range and relies on a slow snowflake.

As far as Dutchman goes, I've changed out my Minion after learning that Pirate Staff wasn't very good or consistent enough for what I was trying to display. I've since moved up to Blade Staff + Twin Staff. Actually, I feel that test would be the purest form of a true answer, as we can remove player error or player skill from the equation.

No no, that's not how this works. You are the one claiming that Cool Whip can be better than Firecracker, you need to show evidence for that.

No, I never made such a claim. My position is & has always been that Cool Whip is the better crowd-control/ DPS monster. I don't know enough about Firecracker to claim such a thing, I was simply challenging Baconfry's tier placement. It became about something else once other people got involved & started moving the goal post, which I'm still super confused about.

You've shown two flawed tests (the first proved that it wasn't very strong, in fact) to try and prove your point, we have yet to see one situation where Cool Whip is definitely better.

I won't argue that the tests are flawed (in fact, I'd agree that all of our current tests are flawed), it's to be expected though, as there are no ground-rules set in place to make a grounded comparison between the two Whip. We're only just now getting a good starting point thanks to @SsIras & until further testing is done, the jury is still out. Either side can be right, I just don't know which it is just yet & it should be ok to admit that.

It's funny how you bring up that you need evidence for this...

...and then follow up with a statement like this that there is no evidence for. Never heard of this before, and I'm testing right now on Destroyer and the DPS is not increasing at all (it's showing 330-380 with Spider armor and nothing else; raises to about 500 if I hit a bigger coil of his body, for a crowd control weapon this is really bad). This is most likely something you imagined. If it's not, show evidence.

I'm not entertaining a test you've supposedly done with nothing to compare it to.

You use Cool Whip to summon the Snowball and then go back to Firecracker. There is pretty much no reason to keep attacking with it until you need to summon the snowball again, that's the point of the weapon.

Again, your opinion is valid, but I'm not convinced unless someone show me proof. I'm not sure why me, not believing you & simply taking your word for it is being criticized.

 

[Baconfry]

My position is & has always been that Cool Whip is the better crowd-control/ DPS monster. I don't know enough about Firecracker to claim such a thing, I was simply challenging Baconfry's tier placement.

Could you try using the Firecracker, then?

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Could you try using the Firecracker, then?

I was depending on someone better than me with the Weapon to do the testing (i.e. a person making tier lists), as I wouldn't be sure how to get the most mileage out of it. I exchanged Firecracker with Cool Whip & was happy with the results, as it felt like a direct upgrade, so I'm not qualified to argue against it to Cool Whip. My results would likely be very biased & limited.

 

[Baconfry]

I mean, we can clearly observe the Firecracker doing something (adding ~150 damage to a minion hit on every swing) and we can also observe the Cool Whip often doing nothing (snowflake trying to chase an enemy that's faster than it). The snowflake can deal some damage when it hits, but it's pretty obvious that it's not even close to approaching the Firecracker's effect, which adds 150 damage per swing.

Since Cool Whip does not interact with minions in any way other than changing their targeting, my evaluation is based on how it performs on its own. We can probably agree that it's not the greatest single-target weapon, but if it can't even exceed 400 DPS against the Destroyer (against which every crowd control weapon does well), then it can't be called a good crowd control weapon either.

.............DPS: ###
Crowd control: ###
......Accuracy: #####
.....Disruption: ###
..........Safety: ###

Here is my evaluation of the Cool Whip's stats. Which of these do you think is incorrect?

 

[J Bame]

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean, I asked Baconfry to run a test on Blood Nautilus & he was having issue, so I downgraded the test to something more manageable like Goblin Shark, this test was organic. There's no way I could've gone in with the intentions to prove synergy, it only became a people-pleasing contest once other people invested their horse in the race. There was no way I could've planned for this, so this entire part is very confusing.

You said that the screenshot of your test against the Goblin Shark was showing synergy between Cool Whip and your minions. I said that there was nothing special there, attacking the same target as your minions isn't synergy in my eyes.

I think of synergy as a special interaction between specific things, for example holding Sky Fracture to boost Nimbus' crit chance due to how crit chance on projectiles works. I guess we interpret the word differently, hence the confusion here.

No, I never made such a claim [You quite literally are in the next sentence, though]. My position is & has always been that Cool Whip is the better crowd-control/ DPS monster. I don't know enough about Firecracker to claim such a thing, I was simply challenging Baconfry's tier placement. It became about something else once other people got involved & started moving the goal post, which I'm still super confused about.

I'm not actually sure how it got to Firecracker vs Cool whip either, lol.

On the topic of "Cool Whip should be higher"; you haven't shown a valid argument or anything that would make him want to put it above B+. You've shown 2 tests that weren't fully accurate, and then other people here including Baconfry himself started testing showing that Cool Whip was fine where it was.

As far as Dutchman goes, I've changed out my Minion after learning that Pirate Staff wasn't very good or consistent enough for what I was trying to display. I've since moved up to Blade Staff + Twin Staff. Actually, I feel that test would be the purest form of a true answer, as we can remove player error or player skill from the equation.

Testing using minions here is pointless; Cool Whip doesn't affect minions or vice-versa. If you want to see how good Cool Whip's crowd control is, testing it by itself will show how strong it actually is without other minions making its dps appear higher than it actually is.

Realistically, against crowds you'll just whip once with Cool Whip to summon the snowflake and then swap back to, say, a repeater with Jester's arrows. Whips with their tag are, again, really really weak.

I'm not entertaining a test you've supposedly done with nothing to compare it to.

That's rude and I don't even know if you even bothered reading my paragraph properly.

What did you want me to compare there? I simply wanted to see if the damage really ramped up as you said it did, and it didn't. If a supposed increase in damage like this on a crowd control weapon it's not apparent on Destroyer (who is the equivalent of fighting more than 50 enemies lined up), it's not apparent on anything else.

Are you not even going to explain how you think the ramp-up works, if it exists at all? Are you not going to listen to anyone that doesn't show a picture of the DPS meter in-game, despite the fact that static images wouldn't show a ramping DPS increase properly?

Again, your opinion is valid, but I'm not convinced unless someone show me proof. I'm not sure why me, not believing you & simply taking your word for it is being criticized

Proof... of what? It's simply a fact that the game rewards you more from using them both, since the Snowflake doesn't disappear nor get weaker if you start attacking with another weapon. Doing a bit of micro with both whips is objectively better, even if it takes a bit more skill.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

I mean, we can clearly observe the Firecracker doing something (adding ~150 damage to a minion hit on every swing) and we can also observe the Cool Whip often doing nothing (snowflake trying to chase an enemy that's faster than it). The snowflake can deal some damage when it hits, but it's pretty obvious that it's not even close to approaching the Firecracker's effect, which adds 150 damage per swing.

This seems like a good base to do flat testing on. I'm actually comfortable doing the Flying Dutchman test this way, just mindlessly swing & see what numbers I get & compare the two Whips. My only hold-up was not considering a flat test, but if everyone is comfortable with that format, that's what I'll use.

Since Cool Whip does not interact with minions in any way other than changing their targeting, my evaluation is based on how it performs on its own. We can probably agree that it's not the greatest single-target weapon, but if it can't even exceed 400 DPS against the Destroyer (against which every crowd control weapon does well), then it can't be called a good crowd control weapon either.

This is the only portion I don't think either party will be satisfied with if I was to do a Flying Dutchman test. First I'll do it, get my results & then we can go from there. I also won't be able to effectively prove it's crowd control capabilities in such a flat test, but we have to start somewhere, so I'll start there.

Here is my evaluation of the Cool Whip's stats. Which of these do you think is incorrect?

I'll do the Dutchman test & get back to you with the most accurate information I can in that particular setting. Once the numbers are in, on my side, we can go from there if neither party is satisfied with the results. Dutchman test will remove player skill & player error from the equation I think...
---

You said that the screenshot of your test against the Goblin Shark was showing synergy between Cool Whip and your minions. I said that there was nothing special there, attacking the same target as your minions isn't synergy in my eyes.

Ok, I'm not sure what you want me to do with a perspective vs. perspective argument. I already told you that the test was organic & i was lucky to even get a screenshot. If your'e having trouble confirming this, just ask Baconfry. He was having trouble with a test, so I set newer, more manageable ground-rules. I'm not sure why your perspective on the matter is even valid, or why you keep pushing it, it means nothing.

I think of synergy as a special interaction between specific things, for example holding Sky Fracture to boost Nimbus' crit chance due to how crit chance on projectiles works. I guess we interpret the word differently, hence the confusion here.

Synergy: the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects. This is the definition I'm using, at all times. No need to dig into the interpretation bag on this one.

I'm not actually sure how it got to Firecracker vs Cool whip either, lol.

Other people changing the goal post; that has nothing to do with me. My argument was for the tier, I don't know enough about Firecracker to give an opinion.

On the topic of "Cool Whip should be higher"; you haven't shown a valid argument or anything that would make him want to put it above B+. You've shown 2 tests that weren't fully accurate, and then other people here including Baconfry himself started testing showing that Cool Whip was fine where it was.

I asked Baconfry to do a follow-up test, on both Destroyer & Blood Nautilus. Both tests had issues & never got off the ground, so I adjusted them slightly. It wasn't a showcase, it was a template to start with. Again, if for some reason I can't be trusted, ask Baconfry.

Testing using minions here is pointless; Cool Whip doesn't affect minions or vice-versa. If you want to see how good Cool Whip's crowd control is, testing it by itself will show how strong it actually is without other minions making its dps appear higher than it actually is.

I don't know that though, which is why it would need to be tested, which is more reliable. Once we do that, we can all accept either or, as I plan on testing both Whips tonight & sharing my results. I don't do theory-crafting & then publish, I test & then publish. Once I go through the motions, I'll return with the most accurate information possible, then any will be free to counter-test.

Realistically, against crowds you'll just whip once with Cool Whip to summon the snowflake and then swap back to, say, a repeater with Jester's arrows. Whips with their tag are, again, really really weak.

You're discussing a Meta I disagree with but can't really comment on. First, let's see about these Whips & then I'll come back to this. There's too many claims being made here that have nothing to do with the original intent of the post, which is a challenge to Cool Whips spot on the tier list.

What did you want me to compare there? I simply wanted to see if the damage really ramped up as you said it did, and it didn't. If a supposed increase in damage like this on a crowd control weapon it's not apparent on Destroyer (who is the equivalent of fighting more than 50 enemies lined up), it's not apparent on anything else.

As I said before, this is too ambiguous to comment on, I have no idea what steps you took, what gear you were using, what modifiers, etc. Critiquing crowd control doing some mystery test isn't sufficient enough information for me. This is why my DPS meter reaching the thousands is important to the context. It's burst DMG, like it or not. We'd have to accurately pin down exactly what environment Cool Whip thrives in & if Firecracker thrives in that very same environment but better, we'll have our answer. We don't have one yet.

Are you not even going to explain how you think the ramp-up works, if it exists at all? Are you not going to listen to anyone that doesn't show a picture of the DPS meter in-game, despite the fact that static images wouldn't show a ramping DPS increase properly?

We can move up to video footage if it's necessary. I can only be invested enough as the other person who disagrees. If I knew how the modifier worked, Id gladly share, but it's too difficult to create an environment everyone agrees on. I did two tests, a.) a static test where the enemy is stuck in place, b.) a chaotic test where the enemy is unpredictable, no one was satisfied with the results. That's fair, but if that's gonna be the case, we all have to agree on a goal post, or we'll keep going in circles, which I'm not interested in doing.

Proof... of what? It's simply a fact that the game rewards you more from using them both, since the Snowflake doesn't disappear nor get weaker if you start attacking with another weapon. Doing a bit of micro with both whips is objectively better, even if it takes a bit more skill.

Show me it in practice. It does sound plausible, but I don't really see it working well in a scramble, or even working well on a static enemy. Give me a base to go off of & I'll see if I can out-do your DPS. If you're right, the counter will prove it. If you're not, it was good theory-crafting but, GG.

 

[Baconfry]

This is why my DPS meter reaching the thousands is important to the context. It's burst DMG, like it or not.

It reached the thousands because your Clinger Staff and Queen Spider were dealing damage to other enemies on your screen. In the Flying Dutchman example, your Nimbus Rod was also dealing damage. I think you might have been mis-attributing your DPS meter reading to the Cool Whip, because the rest of us have concluded that the Cool Whip never reaches that kind of DPS on its own.

Plus, the ability to reach 1000+ DPS when used next to minions, Queen Spiders, Nimbus Rod, and Clinger Staff is hardly unique to the Cool Whip. You could use a Pearlwood Bow in that same setup and it would probably reach 1000 DPS on the meter occasionally.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

It reached the thousands because your Clinger Staff and Queen Spider were dealing damage to other enemies on your screen. In the Flying Dutchman example, your Nimbus Rod was also dealing damage. I think you might have been mis-attributing your DPS meter reading to the Cool Whip, because the rest of us have concluded that the Cool Whip never reaches that kind of DPS on its own.

Ah, I think I finally see the disconnect. Here's the thing, my Summoner build is designed to do unbiased DPS. I wasn't taking into account that everyone disagreeing with me needed every ounce of DPS to come from Minions alone. If that's the case then I can understand why you placed Cool Whip where you did. I'm not playing a Summoner purist, I'm approaching the game from the perspective of "what works, works". If this is a Summoner purist v.s. Summoner using whatever has the best synergy argument, then we've been standing on two different platforms this entire discussion.

Plus, the ability to reach 1000+ DPS when used next to minions, Queen Spiders, Nimbus Rod, and Clinger Staff is hardly unique to the Cool Whip. You could use a Pearlwood Bow in that same setup and it would probably reach 1000 DPS on the meter occasionally.

I wouldn't be surprised, but I did set a template that no one ever challenged. I have been constantly saying, duplicate the scenario & show me that Firecracker is the superior choice, had anyone done that, we wouldn't even be having this discussion for this long. This isn't my fault, in fact, with all the vitriolic undertone added into the discussion, this was anyone who disagrees with me's, perfect opportunity to make me out to be a fraud. Especially if I'm making a big fuss about something that can easily be duplicaed with a Wooden Bow. That's not my bag to carry, that's on y'all...

 

[Dapling]

Ah, I think I finally see the disconnect. Here's the thing, my Summoner build is designed to do unbiased DPS.

Your dps was pretty biased towards random adds on the edge of the screen. It's not a purist matter, if it were about that the queen spider staff would be exempt.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Your dps was pretty biased towards random adds on the edge of the screen. It's not a purist matter, if it were about that the queen spider staff would be exempt.

Nobody set ground rules & nobody made it clear to me that they wanted every ounce of DPS to come from Minions. That's not the build I'm using, which likely explains the disconnect. I don't think we can come to agree if we're approaching the Weapon with different mind-sets, as the test(s) will always be biased, no matter who's doing them. Stating the obvious isn't adding anything useful to the discussion.

 

[Baconfry]

Why would I raise the Cool Whip's ranking if it was the Clinger Staff, Queen Spider Staff, and Nimbus Rod that were doing well?

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Why would I raise the Cool Whip's ranking if it was the Clinger Staff, Queen Spider Staff, and Nimbus Rod that were doing well?

I created both a template & an environment for you, of which I was under the impression Cool Whip was thriving. If all the credit was due to Clinger Staff, Queen Spider Staff, and Nimbus Rod, all that was left to do is replicate or create a similar scenario where Firecracker was still the better choice, especially if they aren't even in the same league. This should've been easy for anyone to do, but here we are, again, doing more theory-crafting & less testing. *one foot out the door*

 

[Baconfry]

Here's the Cool Whip in an extremely enemy-dense situation, where you would expect the snowflake to put in the maximum amount of work:

Here is the Crystal Vile Shard, a C rank weapon, in the same situation (while still wearing Spider Armor):

And here is the Chain Guillotines, a mediocre B rank single-target weapon, also in the same situation:

If your argument is that the Cool Whip deserves to be an A rank weapon, I'm really not seeing it.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Here's the Cool Whip in an extremely enemy-dense situation, where you would expect the snowflake to put in the maximum amount of work:
View attachment 279355

I can't see the environment you've created to justify using it in that scenario, the screen is too narrow (this looks like an Eclipse Event, Post Plantera/ Golem content), you could be using God Mode for all I know; but for the sake of being fair, I'll go with it, for now.

Here is the Crystal Vile Shard, a C rank weapon, in the same situation (while still wearing Spider Armor):
View attachment 279356

Yeah, I can't take any of this seriously anymore, as I know for a fact that this Weapon comes from a Biome Mimic. You're comparing a Weapon you can get in Early Hardmode by fishing & killing an Ice Golem, to a Weapon you get from killing a skill check Mini-Boss, whose alternate farming method is gathering Souls of Light. Even I know that my Dart Rifle/ Clinger Staff will likely carry me all-the-way up until Golem, possibly even farther. This is the epitome of bias testing...

And here is the Chain Guillotines, a mediocre B rank single-target weapon, also in the same situation:
View attachment 279360

If your argument is that the Cool Whip deserves to be an A rank weapon, I'm really not seeing it.

*exit*

 

[Dapling]

Here's the Cool Whip in an extremely enemy-dense situation, where you would expect the snowflake to put in the maximum amount of work:
View attachment 279355

Here is the Crystal Vile Shard, a C rank weapon, in the same situation (while still wearing Spider Armor):
View attachment 279356

And here is the Chain Guillotines, a mediocre B rank single-target weapon, also in the same situation:
View attachment 279360

If your argument is that the Cool Whip deserves to be an A rank weapon, I'm really not seeing it.

I know you just zoomed in to make the stats easier to see, but could you post the full size screenshots so he stops with the excuses?

Yeah, I can't take any of this seriously anymore, as I know for a fact that this Weapon comes from a Biome Mimic. You're comparing a Weapon you can get in Early Hardmode by fishing & killing an Ice Golem, to a Weapon you get from killing a skill check Mini-Boss, whose alternate farming method is gathering Souls of Light. Even I know that my Dart Rifle will likely carry me all-the-way up until Golem, possibly even farther. This is the epitome of bias testing...

Yes. A biome mimic. The enemy that you can avoid by just not approaching in the underground, and running in one direction once you're on the surface. It doesn't even have a ranged attack, unlike the Ice Golem.

Compare any of these to the Onyx Blaster, an item that's on S tier. You don't have to fight any minibosses for that, and all of the examples Baconfry gave you are B tier and lower.

 

[SsIras]

I can't see the environment you've created to justify using it in that scenario, the screen is too narrow (this looks like an Eclipse Event, Post Plantera/ Golem content), you could be using God Mode for all I know; but for the sake of being fair, I'll go with it, for now.


Yeah, I can't take any of this seriously anymore, as I know for a fact that this Weapon comes from a Biome Mimic. You're comparing a Weapon you can get in Early Hardmode by fishing & killing an Ice Golem, to a Weapon you get from killing a skill check Mini-Boss, whose alternate farming method is gathering Souls of Light. Even I know that my Dart Rifle will likely carry me all-the-way up until Golem, possibly even farther. This is the epitome of bias testing...


*exit*

Well... Ice Golem is as hard to kill as a mimic and harder to find. Besides nothing you said has much relevancy to the tests. Also, sorry but, my tests are still there, and they seem more relevant than what everyone else tried to say, yet you focus attention to that only. I replied to how Firecracker is a better weapon than Cool Whip in a very simple way, and you given no input how to turn the tables. I doubt it's possible, I can test again and again against any bosses and obtain the same results. Cool Whip is just being highlighted on it's weakness here, opposite of what you claim your tests to be.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

@Derpling Ω , anyone who'd compare an Early-Hardmode Whip Weapon to a Daedalus Stormbow tier item is delusional. I'm done here...

 

[Dapling]

@Derpling Ω , anyone who'd compare an Early-Hardmode Whip Weapon to a Daedalus Stormbow tier item is delusional. I'm done here...

Yes, because an early hardmode miniboss which is hard to grind for and is rare is apparently so much harder than an early hardmode miniboss that is hard to grind for and is rare. One has a projectile, the other just hops towards you and literally can't hit you if you move in a single horizontal direction.

You basically just admitted that it's inferior by panicking and saying it's in an earlier progression tier, when they are, in fact, on the same progression sub-tier in the same progression tier.

 

[qwerty3.14]

Here's the Cool Whip in an extremely enemy-dense situation, where you would expect the snowflake to put in the maximum amount of work:
View attachment 279355

Here is the Crystal Vile Shard, a C rank weapon, in the same situation (while still wearing Spider Armor):
View attachment 279356

And here is the Chain Guillotines, a mediocre B rank single-target weapon, also in the same situation:
View attachment 279360

If your argument is that the Cool Whip deserves to be an A rank weapon, I'm really not seeing it.

wait... how is cool whip even justifying a B tier then?
If it against a whole crowd has worse dps than a single target B tier weapon...
and is worse than a C tier crowd control weapon...