Is whip stacking fun gameplay or an exploit to be patched?

Is whip stacking good or bad?


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I'd like to see those builds I'll search for them later (can't really start googling terraria in university class xD), but are you sure they're still summoner plus a secondary, or just mostly a mage that also uses minions
Coz how are you gonna supply mana for the bubble gun. Also phantasm and dragon against empress? what's the point? at the point when i can have phantasm and dragon i can have kaleidoscope plus terraprisma and i'm pretty sure dps is greater
Here's a few videos. First one is the Bubble Gun + Xeno Staff build, second one is a Flamethrower + Optic/Spider build and third is a Kaleidoscope + Xeno Staff build that not only stacks four whips but also includes Betsy's Wrath for the equivalent to another 20 tag damage (21s killtime is still possible after the Xeno hotfix nerf). And yet, even with four whips, Kaleidoscope doesn't match Bubble Gun hybrid.


Whether they are more Summoner or more of the other class is debatable but fact of the matter is that basically any viable DPS weapon will deal significantly more DPS than whips even in builds that invests heavily into minion slots & damage. Also, the point of Phantasm and Dragon against Empress is Terraprisma so it's not like it's pointless.
 
not sure about that one, just did some tests and kaleidoscope gives me around 1000 dps not counting summon tag, while vortex beater with chlorophyte bullets gives about 1400 dps (single target test), considering whips by nature are multi target weapons and that summon tag is not counted into this whole equation that whole statement seems way too confident
You proved that Vortex Beater is 40% stronger in a pure summoner build yet you are still not convinced. I hate DPS meter so let's do some simple math:

Kaleidoscope has 180 base damage and attacks twice per second, making 360 DPS. Vortex Beater has 50 base damage and with chloro bullets, 59. And the use time of the bullets is 5. That's 709 DPS. Add the rocket and we get 853 DPS.

Vortex Beater has 240% more DPS than a lone kaleidoscope. You need the damage increase of 5 spooky armors to even that out.

Let's get to eventide, a weapon of the same tier: That one has 792 DPS when using Ichor Arrows. If you use archery potion (cheap and extremely potent) that's 871 DPS. Actually a little stronger than Vortex Beater, though without homing.

So yes, Whips by themselves are very weak and need their tag to compete.
You place your argument well, but whip stacking is very similar to something like ichor being used with other items. And the whole "ties dev hands down" is not even relevant. Sure, people may opt to use certain whips, but that doesn't stop the devs from adding more, and guess what, they are! "Limiting creativity" isn't relevant either, there are still a lot of options for whip ideas, including an ENTIRE projectile index to work with.

If people what to involve themselves in some controversy, then that's their problem.

You have persuaded me to look for or create a thread with extra whip options though, because as of 1.4.5 we only know that there are 3 new whips, and one of them isn't even really needed due to Kaleidoscope.
Way to miss every single point I made. Not even going to bother here.
Wouldn't you use said whip as a "main dps" whip to squeeze out a bit more DPS after already having stacked one or two other whips? Like Cool Whip in 1.4.3 on the pre-mech Blade Staff build.
If the numbers work out that way, i suppose. Though bringing up one of the main points again: If you make a whip with strong base stats and a bad tag, and then a whip with poor base stats and a great tag, using both at once will be overpowered, since you'll have a strong whip and a very strong tag. Or hell, even stacking this whip with a normal tag will be overpowered, because the whole point is that this whip has a very poor tag to balance it out.

Note that Cool Whip was used with Blade Staff because there was no other choice. Everyone agreed Cool Whip needed a buff.
Doesn't it do the exact opposite and instead allows more whips to be used & viable without facing significant competition & opportunity costs?
No. I wrote two paragraphs about that.
I don't understand, didn't you say the opposite earlier in your post?:
I did not. With whip stacking people ignore the base stats because they focus purely on the tags, as shown by prehardmode whips still being used in Hardmode. Any stat other than the ones on the main whip is ignored.
"Best whips at the tier" is VERY vague and an inaccurate oversimplification, in Hardmode that is. Which whips are the "best" depends on which minion you're using among other things In Pre-Mech, Sanguine is optimal with Firecracker while Blade Staff is optimal with Cool Whip. Sanguine is stronger than Blade Staff in Pre-Mech, but that doesn't mean you can just say "You just get the best whip in the tier, Firecracker". Not only is Firecracker terrible with Blade Staff, but Sanguine is infamously annoying & difficult to obtain for most players so a lot of players just end up skipping it in favor of Blade Staff. Cool Whip is also particularly good against Destroyer, to the point that you could argue focusing on dodging while letting the Snowflake wear down Destroyer is just as good of a strategy as aggressive Firecracker spam w/ a tankier build. Can you even give a straightforward answer to whether Cool Whip or Firecracker is "best" for mobbing/events?
This is not about early hardmode or any specific tier, it's a hypothetical situation where we have 2-3 whips per tier. Firecracker by itself is unique and has room for experimentation, but how many "Firecracker" level of unique whips can you really make? If another whip as good as cool whip was added, you'd just stack both it and Cool Whip and that will be it. You wont pay much attention to whatever upsides and downsides both whips have, because you'll be using both at once.
That's... just wrong? Durendal alone adds a few hundreds of DPS to Firecracker builds Pre-Plantera. And against Destroyer specifically, Cool Whip as a secondary whip works well as an additional source of damage when using Sanguine or Abigail + Firecracker.
I worded that poorly, I meant that the only time we have 2 whips at the same stage, it's two whips that can't be stacked with each other. "against Destroyer specifically" basically proves the point.
There's also an important thing you didn't take into account: Hybrid Summoner builds. Stacking multiple whips enables "Pure" Summoner to partially bridge the gap between it and Hybrid builds. With Whip stacking gone, then what tools does Pure Summoner have anymore to not be completely, hopelessly outclassed? What's the point anymore? Basically your only options left are inflating the base damage DPS of whips, or having a Calamity-like bandaid nerf to minion damage when holding a weapon with a different damage type. Neither of these are remotely good solutions. Even if we ignore that, removing Whip stacking means individual whips will need buffs across the boards for the most parts, which will be another indirect buff to Hybrid Summoner builds that basically only use one whip coupled with a main offensive weapon.
Hybrid summoner builds are overoptimized, it's not just summoner that's outclassed but also the other "pure class", and that's normal. It's an overoptimized build after all.

If using a whip is straight up worse than using a weapon from another class (You have yet to prove that, by the way. Your video only shows Snapthorn isn't as strong as hyperaggressive Demon Scythe), you are saying that Whip Stacking should be the baseline for the class? That using a single whip should be "hopelessly outclassed" and not the intended way to play the class, and that the supposed "exploit for skilled players" is the only way for summoner to be good?
 
You proved that Vortex Beater is 40% stronger in a pure summoner build yet you are still not convinced. I hate DPS meter so let's do some simple math:

Kaleidoscope has 180 base damage and attacks twice per second, making 360 DPS. Vortex Beater has 50 base damage and with chloro bullets, 59. And the use time of the bullets is 5. That's 709 DPS. Add the rocket and we get 853 DPS.

Vortex Beater has 240% more DPS than a lone kaleidoscope. You need the damage increase of 5 spooky armors to even that out.

Let's get to eventide, a weapon of the same tier: That one has 792 DPS when using Ichor Arrows. If you use archery potion (cheap and extremely potent) that's 871 DPS. Actually a little stronger than Vortex Beater, though without homing.

So yes, Whips by themselves are very weak and need their tag to compete.
never argued that the last statement is not true, my point was that at the current state i'm not agreing with statement that nearly every other weapon from other classes so badly outdamages whips, for kaleidoscope you should also include dmg from papayrus scarab and necromantic scroll, every summoner who uses minions uses those accesiories

also if we go into buff terithory then for kaleidoscope you'd need to count in melee speed buffs from food and tipsy buffs

and what about DPS meter, i think it presents more realistic scenario, besides buffs and melee speed and prefixes on items make calculations rather complicated
(i'm not saying that calcs are bad, they're ceratainly more accurate than looking at meter, but the one you presented are plainly oversimplified)
 
also if we go into buff terithory then for kaleidoscope you'd need to count in melee speed buffs from food and tipsy buffs
you need to increase kalei's DPS by 240%. You are NOT getting that even with every single slot dedicated to it. Especially when you can equip, say, Avenger Emblem or Celestial stone and increase the damage of both the other class weapon and your minions.

and what about DPS meter, i think it presents more realistic scenario, besides buffs and melee speed and prefixes on items make calculations rather complicated
(i'm not saying that calcs are bad, they're ceratainly more accurate than looking at meter, but the one you presented are plainly oversimplified)
There is nothing "oversimplified" about looking at base DPS to prove a point

DPS meter tests on a Dummy have a ton of variance and ignore things like defense impacts and accuracy issues. And most of all, suffer greatly from the people cherry-picking DPS to make misleading claims.
 
Especially when you can equip, say, Avenger Emblem or Celestial stone and increase the damage of both the other class weapon and your minions.

There is nothing "oversimplified" about looking at base DPS to prove a point

DPS meter tests on a Dummy have a ton of variance and ignore things like defense impacts and accuracy issues. And most of all, suffer greatly from the people cherry-picking DPS to make misleading claims.
no you cannot equip avenger or clestial to boost both, damage of your minions is not related to what you equip while fighting but what you equip while summoning

also how can you say it's not simplyfing did you consider that terrarias damage increase is a % of original value, even manacing on accesories is woth more if weapon has higher dmg , these things do not exist in void they're part of the system and that needs to be considered

And again i'll state that sure there might be some weapons that are stronger than whips but i don't think they're so bad
also calcs ignore defence and accurency so that's not really a point agains dummies, as for cherry picking i think i choose most commonly apearing value but you'll have to trust me on these or check yourself


We stroll quite a bit from original topic want to take this to the dms or something?
 
no you cannot equip avenger or clestial to boost both, damage of your minions is not related to what you equip while fighting but what you equip while summoning
This was fixed in 1.4.
also how can you say it's not simplyfing did you consider that terrarias damage increase is a % of original value, even manacing on accesories is woth more if weapon has higher dmg , these things do not exist in void they're part of the system and that needs to be considered
... what? Do you not know how porcentages work?
 
This was fixed in 1.4.

... what? Do you not know how porcentages work?
oh yeh missed that fix

what do you mean like don't you understand mu point, this will be very rough example to make a point
you have two weapons one had 100 dmg other 10 dmg 10% increase gives you 10 dmg on first one and 1 dmg on second one thus percentage dmg incerease work far better on weapons with high bse dmg
 
I don't really have an opinion on Whip Stacking when it comes to PC version; I don't like Summoner, I don't play it, I don't care whether it gets removed or balanced around as a feature.

One thing that SHOULD be noted though is that Whip Stacking is either impossible or very difficult on controls other than mouse and keyboard, and balancing around it would be extremely unfair towards platforms other than PC. I doubt Whip Stacking is going to stay, almost purely for that reason; Re-Logic has struck down ideas that would be too hard to make work on other control setups before, and I highly doubt this would be an exception.

Personally, I wouldn't mind Summoner being balanced around one whip and having Whip Stacking be an extra optional optimization, but that could cause some balance issues; I myself don't care about those issues, but I also don't care about the class in general, and I'm sure other people who care about the class  do.
 
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you have two weapons one had 100 dmg other 10 dmg 10% increase gives you 10 dmg on first one and 1 dmg on second one thus percentage dmg incerease work far better on weapons with high bse dmg
base damage is not damage per second

If you have 10 base damage and attack 10 times per second you have 100 dps. If you increase damage by 10%, you et 11 base damage and your dps jumps to 110
If you have another weapon with 100 base damage that attacks once per second, that's also 100 DPS. If you increase its damage by 10%, it has 110 damage and your DPS is also 110.

+10% more damage is +10% more DPS. It doesnt matter what your base damage is. Enemy defense changes things a bit but we are not talking about that here.
 
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No. I wrote two paragraphs about that.
They're not really valid for the most parts though, that's the point. Something I forgot to point out as well is that when you said "when you Whip stack, only tags matters"... that's the entire point. Tag effects are the whole point of whips. They are the reason for using whips fundamentally, whether using one whip or 4 of them.

When you can only use one whip, opportunity cost becomes a big thing in that case as well. You will only use whatever "best" Whip there is for your minion, while anything that is remotely weaker overall or less consistent but with otherwise similar DPS ceilling, will basically be entirely ignored and irrelevant. When you say "Whip stacking heavily restricts design space", the opposite is true if anything. And before you bring up weapons from other classes, they are more nuanced than whips when it comes to weapons in a "sub-class" being compared to each other. Boomstick is better than Minishark overall for example, but Minishark has far superior accuracy and is generally easier to use. Demon Scythe is considered better than Book of Skulls, but Book of Skulls has homing and is actually pretty convenient and reliable for early Hardmode mobbing. Stardust Dragon is better than Stardust Cell overall, but Cell is more consistent for Daytime EoL and is better for pillar mobbing. I could go on for eons. Hell, Muramasa has higher single target DPS than Night's Edge.

And then you look at Whips. They all work the same fundamentally, a swing that does damage and more importantly does an effect of some sort on hit. If stacking is removed, then why would you ever use Leather Whip over Snapthorn? Why would you ever use Dark Harvest when Morning Star exists? And then you add all the new 1.4.5 whips and what I'd expect to happen is that once things are figured out after a week at most, some whips will become the "right" answer while others fade into obscurity and become outclassed with basically no uses over the "right" answer. Let's think of a new whip hypothetically, a Pre-mech Whip with nearly on par DPS as Durendal and 20% critical hit chance tag (being generous). Seems pretty good right? But why would you ever use that over Firecracker for Abigail or Sanguine? Or over Cool Whip for Blade Staff? How about a Post-Plantera Eclipse Whip that spawns homing nails on the target(s) on hit? If the overall DPS is higher than Morning Star, then Morning Star is outclassed and irrelevant. Otherwise, Morning Star outclasses it and makes it irrelevant. Doesn't really matter if the player is a beginner or a sweat.

It doesn't matter if outclassed =/= unviable and that said outclassed whips would still be perfectly viable on their own, the point is that such a scenario would lead to greatly watered down depth when it comes to Whip builds & optimization. To be fair, it's not IMPOSSIBLE to design two or more whips that competes against each other without blatantly making each other irrelevant in basic optimization, in fact it can be achieved by making some whips put greater emphasis on risk vs. reward relative to other whips, however it's achieved. But without Leinfors, I'm not confident on Re-Logic pulling such thing when they are about to double or something the amount of whips in the game (assuming stacking is removed, which by itself warrants a small balance overhaul).

I did not. With whip stacking people ignore the base stats because they focus purely on the tags, as shown by prehardmode whips still being used in Hardmode. Any stat other than the ones on the main whip is ignored.
Whips were always mainly about the tags. They focus on the tags because that's the point & strength of whips in the first place.
This is not about early hardmode or any specific tier, it's a hypothetical situation[...]
I didn't see you describe or specify your explanation of Whip stacking meta being "hypothetical" anywhere in your previous post, it clearly seemed as if you were describing whips and their uses as it is in 1.4.4 currently. The only thing you said that seemed unusual is "tags will have to be heavily limited to maintain balance", which I don't really know what is supposed to mean or imply because you also said yourself that stacking is not overpowered in 1.4.4.
Hybrid summoner builds are overoptimized, it's not just summoner that's outclassed but also the other "pure class", and that's normal. It's an overoptimized build after all.
With no whip stacking, Hybrid Summoner would particularly outclass Pure Summoner a lot more than the other classes. Ranger and Mage builds that don't care about minions can at least just fully focus on far-range combat which makes them inherently appealing and straightforward for the average player, and there's always the option of using secondary weapons like Nimbus Rod and Cursed Darts depending on the situation to bridge the gap a bit. And then Melee who is just as dominant as Hybrid Summoner for its own different reasons because of Defense abuse and weapons like Terra Blade and Vampire Knives.

Hybrid Summoner is already dominant and very strong, but it can easily become a lot better from what I described to the point of becoming obscene.
If using a whip is straight up worse than using a weapon from another class (You have yet to prove that, by the way. Your video only shows Snapthorn isn't as strong as hyperaggressive Demon Scythe)
You mean my Speedkill/DPS ranking video? That video went with "Pure" classes literally, meaning no support minions for Mage, Ranger and Melee. They were missing a lot of extra DPS, and yet, against Skeletron they all outperformed Obsidian Armor + Snapthorn stacked with Leather Whip. I'm also not sure why you imply that only Demon Scythe beat Snapthorn, because other weapons also beat Snapthorn as I just said. I did prove this long ago.
you are saying that Whip Stacking should be the baseline for the class? That using a single whip should be "hopelessly outclassed" and not the intended way to play the class, and that the supposed "exploit for skilled players" is the only way for summoner to be good?
No? I literally said in another post that whips could use a buff and that Whip stacking should logically reward you with the fastest killtimes (at least after "true melee"):
Ideally for balance, using one whip should roughly make you around as powerful as the other classes, while Whip stacking should enable you to get the fastest killtimes which is realistically what should be rewarded for pulling off basically the hardest playstyle.
Even if you think that would make whip stacking overpowered, my opinion is let the 1% have fun. Why can Melee facetank Plantera in 15 seconds by holding left click, and also facetank Master mode Duke Fishron by holding left click while standing still with Vampire Knives... but a 1.4.5 glass cannon Summoner hypothetically killing Plantera in 25-30 seconds by stacking three whips suddenly rings the red alarm? Optimized Ranger also does exactly that by holding left click with either Chlorophyte Shotbow + Holy Arrows or Flamethrower, yet NOBODY is complaining about that either. In Pre-Cultist, optimized Mage can borderline kill Empress of Light in under 20 seconds with Bubble Gun, but Summoner can only manage 21 seconds at the fastest with Xeno Staff, FOUR whips stacked with each other plus Betsy's Wrath. NOBODY is complaining about Bubble Gun though. Yet Whip stacking is the "balance problem".

What gives?
 
I've said my thoughts and honestly I don't want to continue with this because @J Bame was just straight up rude to me.
It's just separate features that players have used efficiently together.
 
Whips were always mainly about the tags. They focus on the tags because that's the point & strength of whips in the first place.
You say whips can't truly have differences between them, but then you dismiss these. Whip damage, range, damage falloff per hit, any potential debuff or similar on hit effect. Tags can be the main focus on whips, and whips can have meaningful differences in base stats.
Boomstick is better than Minishark overall for example, but Minishark has far superior accuracy and is generally easier to use. Demon Scythe is considered better than Book of Skulls, but Book of Skulls has homing and is actually pretty convenient and reliable for early Hardmode mobbing. Stardust Dragon is better than Stardust Cell overall, but Cell is more consistent for Daytime EoL and is better for pillar mobbing. I could go on for eons. Hell, Muramasa has higher single target DPS than Night's Edge.
So, other classes can have very clear cut differences between weapons so that it's not always about the DPS... but whips can't? What exactly stops you from making differentiated whips? It doesn't make any sense, it's like saying Bows, Swords, Flails, or any other repeated weapon type can't ever be unique. That's just wrong. Let's go over the ideas you mentioned:
Let's think of a new whip hypothetically, a Pre-mech Whip with nearly on par DPS as Durendal and 20% critical hit chance tag (being generous). Seems pretty good right? But why would you ever use that over Firecracker for Abigail or Sanguine? Or over Cool Whip for Blade Staff?
Give the whip better base stats than Firecracker, making it better for crowd control/mobbing and a little more consistent overall. Give it significantly increased range over firecracker so it can hit certain thresholds like Spazmatism's fireballs. Give it some token tag damage so it doesn't fall that far behind for blade staff, or any similar fast-hitting minion. Maybe it inflicts some armor penetration debuff so it helps if you ever switch to another class weapon, or for multiplayer supporters.

How about a Post-Plantera Eclipse Whip that spawns homing nails on the target(s) on hit? If the overall DPS is higher than Morning Star, then Morning Star is outclassed and irrelevant. Otherwise, Morning Star outclasses it and makes it irrelevant. Doesn't really matter if the player is a beginner or a sweat.
Make the homing nails a firecracker-style effect, meaning it'll benefit more from minions with higher base damage. Then we have a Cool whip vs firecracker kind of deal. Or getting a little more creative: Maybe the nails can come from the swings instead of the hit, and the nails can apply a tag themselves, so the whip actually has long range potential. Maybe the nails only have a chance to be spawned, making the whip less consistent but more powerful overall.

Even with the very few whips in vanilla we see some of this: Dark Harvest tag is actually weaker than Morning Star's for single targets, so Dark Harvest doesnt necessarily replace it. Firecracker and Desert Tiger or Stardust Dragon have very very strong DPS, but the poor range of Firecracker is a meaningful downside, so you use other whips with them.

Need more examples? Allow me to show you two TRAE whips:

First we have Tail Whip. A post plantera whip with 240 base dps, 30 tiles range, 11 tag damage and a special debuff that lowers defense by 16. Both the tag and the whip are slightly weaker than what both Morning Star and Dark Harvest can do, but the increased range makes it a safer choice. Additionally, TRAE has some Hybrid Summoner armors with special effects on whip hits, so Tail Whip's longest range and defense-lowering debuff for your other weapons makes it the best choice at proccing them.

Then Absolute Zero, a whip meant to be on the same tier as Kaleidoscope, with 300 base dps, 12 tag damage and 25% crit chance. This tag is overall stronger than what Kaleidoscope gets, but Absolute Zero has a massive 40% damage falloff, making it pretty bad on crowds. Kaleidoscope also has higher DPS on the whip itself.

Most of these things are mentioned are very simple things to add (some are numerical differences), you can get more creative with special effects if you want.
To be fair, it's not IMPOSSIBLE to design two or more whips that competes against each other without blatantly making each other irrelevant in basic optimization, in fact it can be achieved by making some whips put greater emphasis on risk vs. reward relative to other whips, however it's achieved. But without Leinfors, I'm not confident on Re-Logic pulling such thing when they are about to double or something the amount of whips in the game (assuming stacking is removed, which by itself warrants a small balance overhaul).
See, you agree. Honestly even if Re-logic doesnt do it right, people will still discuss balance anyways, they will make mods with Whips in them and sometimes vanilla changes, and this may influence Relogic to make bigger balance patches with more thought put into them, more or less what happened in 1.4.4.

Like, I've been discussing balance before i made a mod or balance updates for this game were ever a consideration, part of the reason i do it is for fun, really.
If stacking is removed, then why would you ever use Leather Whip over Snapthorn? Why would you ever use Dark Harvest when Morning Star exists?
This is... how game progression works. Do you complain that The Mace is worse than Ball O' Hurt? Or that Musket is worse than boomstick? That Gold Broadsword is worse than Blade of Grass?

I didn't see you describe or specify your explanation of Whip stacking meta being "hypothetical" anywhere in your previous post, it clearly seemed as if you were describing whips and their uses as it is in 1.4.4 currently
Well, my bad for wording that poorly.
"tags will have to be heavily limited to maintain balance", which I don't really know what is supposed to mean or imply because you also said yourself that stacking is not overpowered in 1.4.4.
Take for example Absolute Zero earlier. It has a strong tag balanced out by poorer crowd control. With whip stacking this disadvantage is meaningless because you can apply the tag and then go back to Kaleidoscope.

Whip Stacking is not overpowered, but add more whips with strong tags in every stage, and it can get out of hand very quickly. For example the 20% crit chance whip you mentioned would increase DPS of whip stacked builds in early hardmode by 20%. Are Sanguine Staff and Blade Staff with 2-3 whips about equal? Well with this change Sanguine Staff would take the lead again. And Sanguine staff is one of the strongest weapons in its stage already.
With no whip stacking, Hybrid Summoner would particularly outclass Pure Summoner a lot more than the other classes. Ranger and Mage builds that don't care about minions can at least just fully focus on far-range combat which makes them inherently appealing and straightforward for the average player.
I dont really get it. If other classes stick to pure that's appealing and straightforward, but Summoner sticking to whips (or just using other class weapon in a pure build, really) is not?
You mean my Speedkill/DPS ranking video? That video went with "Pure" classes literally, meaning no support minions for Mage, Ranger and Melee. They were missing a lot of extra DPS, and yet, against Skeletron they all outperformed Obsidian Armor + Snapthorn stacked with Leather Whip. I'm also not sure why you imply that only Demon Scythe beat Snapthorn, because other weapons also beat Snapthorn as I just said. I did prove this long ago.
Yeah, comparing Hellstone tier weapons (and bee's knees, op as :red: being above even Hellwing bow in that fight) to a Jungle tier weapon and surprise surprise, the latter is worse. Volcano is almost twice as strong as Blade of Grass. No joke the Blade of Grass equivalent in summoner is worse.

I've discussed that video plenty of times before. There are no whips after snapthorn until beating skeletron with Spinal tap, hence summoner falls behind when other classes get upgrades. This doesn't show Snapthorn is underpowered, it just shows there needs to be something inbetween it and spinal tap.

Do you want Snapthorn to be as good as Volcano? That means that Blade of Grass also has to be as strong as Volcano, that boomstick (already considered OP by most people) needs to be as good as Bee's Knees or at least Molten fury, that all magic weapons need to be as good as what an aggressive Demon Scythe (the strongest phm magic weapon in many aspects)... obviously the balance crumbles very very quickly.

Then we have the plantera tests where you chose Fetid Baghnakhs (most stupidly polarizing thing ever invented) as the melee weapon. Or that mage has to use a close range weapon and keep plantera under two nimbus clouds and still be barely faster than Summoner. Or flamethrower being currently op as :red:. Showing off only 1 weapon per class really does have problems.

Your video only proves that Whip Stacking isn't overpowered in any way because other classes can do other also "unintended" things and be stronger, not that single whips are underpowered. If you want to show whips are underpowered, you need to show them compared to other weapons of the same stage, normal builds and gameplay. Going 110% in every single aspect to try and kill the boss as fast as humanly possible doesn't prove anything.

Let me show you my skeletron tests:
1701393346596.png

The summoner loadouts with snapthorn are significantly stronger than everything else. I am using the post evil bee armor, but 5 frogs are the same as 3 frogs (gotta love static iframes), so im only getting a relatively small damage increase from it, nothing defining. We can both agree Boomstick is op, but it doesnt beat them. Melee with amazon or thorn chakram falls behind by a lot. Mage using post evil gear also falls behind. Bee's knees is op as :red: and shouldn't be used as a baseline for anything. If i minion mix (another rabbit hole for another time) summoner blows everything out of the water.

And naturally the Hell tier weapons beat everything before, as it should be because these are late prehardmode.

Should i be saying that i want snapthorn to be nerfed? No. Because im also not using minions in the other classes and that evens things out (though they are not as strong as you imply they are).
Even if you think that would make whip stacking overpowered, my opinion is let the 1% have fun. Why can Melee facetank Plantera in 15 seconds by holding left click, and also facetank Master mode Duke Fishron by holding left click while standing still with Vampire Knives... but a 1.4.5 glass cannon Summoner hypothetically killing Plantera in 25-30 seconds by stacking three whips suddenly rings the red alarm? Optimized Ranger also does exactly that by holding left click with either Chlorophyte Shotbow + Holy Arrows or Flamethrower, yet NOBODY is complaining about that either. In Pre-Cultist, optimized Mage can borderline kill Empress of Light in under 20 seconds with Bubble Gun, but Summoner can only manage 21 seconds at the fastest with Xeno Staff, FOUR whips stacked with each other plus Betsy's Wrath. NOBODY is complaining about Bubble Gun though. Yet Whip stacking is the "balance problem"
Again:
  1. The potential balance issue isnt my only issue with Whip stacking.
  2. Whip stacking isn't overpowered at the moment, because there are barely any whips in the game, meaning you end up using whips from several tiers prior.
What I want is a stable base for summoner balance. I dont want to ever say "you should nerf this minion/whip because whip stacking is op with it" or "be careful when adding new whips, stacking could become overpowered", or anything of the sort. And I definitely don't want the simplest summoner gameplay to fall behind, because you have to keep whip stacking balanced. Or tell summoners that whip stacking at least 1 whip is how they should be playing, meanwhile Ranger only has to worry about getting a Gun and Crystal bullets.

I'm not against the 1% having fun. I'm okay with people using 2-3 magic side weapons (i.e magnet sphere or nimbus rod) at once and luring bosses into their range to maximise DPS. I can live with people spending an hour on the wiki doing math to see what combination of armor and accessories has the most DPS. I'm ok (to some extent) with facetanking things like madmen provided they had to craft the perfect facetanking build beforehand. Hell, I'm even fine with people using one whip (not more) for their tag and then switching right back to another class weapon. Have a stable, balanced base, keep the core gameplay simple, and then let those that know what they are doing exploit the hell out of it if they are willing to put in the time to do it.
 
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You say whips can't truly have differences between them, but then you dismiss these. Whip damage, range, damage falloff per hit, any potential debuff or similar on hit effect. Tags can be the main focus on whips, and whips can have meaningful differences in base stats.
I don't remember saying that whips outright can't have difference between them. You can divide whips into three parts: Damage, Range (Safety) and Tag/Debuff/On-Hit-Effect. The third one is the most important one and the purpose & viability for Whips in vanilla. Range is not directly related to DPS and minion interaction. And then Damage is just that, which includes damage falloff. The whole point of Summoner is that minions are your main strength & source of damage and that you buff them with whips. If you have whips that deal over half of the total DPS through base damage alone, then that greatly undermines the point of class and fuels the "Melee with summon damage" allegations does it not?

You can have whips that swing differently, directly shoot projectiles or even do completely different things that makes them not whips. But in the case of vanilla, every whip works fundamentally the exact same and by themselves they share basically the same traits, strengths and weaknesses (Can hit multiple targets but with damage falloff, average at best if not low single target DPS, mostly low knockback, mid-ranged relative to other weapons and same swing animation & hitbox shape).

So, other classes can have very clear cut differences between weapons so that it's not always about the DPS... but whips can't? What exactly stops you from making differentiated whips? It doesn't make any sense, it's like saying Bows, Swords, Flails, or any other repeated weapon type can't ever be unique.
It's more about use cases and clear advantages over competitors, even small ones. Leather Whip has absolutely zero sort of advantages or use cases over Snapthorn, Snapthorn is just a straightforward upgrade. Same with Spinal Tap over Snapthorn when there's no stacking. Both Dark Harvest and Morning Star are "Crowd control killer" whips, yet Morning Star is similarly good at it (if not better) while pulling noticeably higher single target DPS with the tag in mind. So without stacking, why bother with Dark Harvest at all when optimizing builds? The closest you could argue is Martian Saucer phase 1, but like 3.5x or something Morning Star base damage DPS is also really appealing so not really. Yes I'm aware Morning Star and Dark Harvest are considered a whole tier away from each other, but those two whips are the only new whips you can get Post-Plantera before Kaleidoscope, and both are particularly strong against crowds. Even if you moved Morning Star to Pumpking loot table or Dark Harvest to dungeon mob loot table, nothing would change when comparing the two weapons beyond availability.

If there was a Post-Plantera worm boss it would be an absolute treat for Dark Harvest, but there isn't one and I doubt there's ever going to be one in vanilla, so let's not think about it. Cool Whip with Durendal is like the only exception to all of this because of the Snowflake's noticeable damage output on Destroyer. Otherwise, Durendal's significantly faster speed, its higher base damage, higher range, lower damage falloff and higher tag damage makes it simply better for all other purposes whether mobbing or especially other boss fights. In fact, the snowflake just gets distracted against Plantera's 2nd phase.

(Not taking stacking into account) Whips are mostly very similar to each other when it comes to playstyle & use cases but with different potency. Firecracker lives in its own bubble because no other whip shares its specific role let alone competes with it, other than that Whips are mostly upgrades/downgrades from each other. Again, Re-Logic can try making more diverse, unique whips like Firecracker and Cool Whip and there's nothing preventing them to. I'm primarily talking with the present (1.4.4) in mind and if Re-Logic does pull it off and make whips a LOT more varied without obliterating the balance of the game, then it'll be amazing. But it's easier said than done.
Give the whip better base stats than Firecracker, making it better for crowd control/mobbing and a little more consistent overall. Give it significantly increased range over firecracker so it can hit certain thresholds like Spazmatism's fireballs. Give it some token tag damage so it doesn't fall that far behind for blade staff, or any similar fast-hitting minion. Maybe it inflicts some armor penetration debuff so it helps if you ever switch to another class weapon, or for multiplayer supporters.
Even if you make the base stats the same as Durendal but minus the whip speed buff, Firecracker would still be better for mobbing and boss fights when using Abigail or Sanguine. Comparing it to Cool Whip + Blade Staff however it's more nuanced, but I've already went over Cool Whip being an exception to this whole thing. And to be fair, your answer is... boring. It's just a very "generalist" whip that tries to be decent at everything and leaving no clear strengths or weaknesses to play around, just a bunch of numbers. Armor penetration debuff won't work because not only does Ichor Flask already exist, but the one minion you'd use this whip with (Blade Staff) already ignores 25 defense. This is what I meant by diverse yet balanced whips being easier said than done.
Make the homing nails a firecracker-style effect, meaning it'll benefit more from minions with higher base damage.
The only thing this achieves by itself is that instead of replacing Morning Star, you replace Firecracker. No one would complain about a WoF drop being outclassed in Post-Plantera, but that's not the point. The player still has the same amount of options Post-Plantera.
Or getting a little more creative: Maybe the nails can come from the swings instead of the hit, and the nails can apply a tag themselves, so the whip actually has long range potential.
This wouldn't really work in Post-Plantera. The Dungeon and Temple are in tight spaces, and Post-Plantera minions like Deadly Sphere Staff are easily able to kill Eclipse mobs while you're hiding behind a wall or something. You also have Tiki Armor combined with Morning Star/Dark Harvest to be able to whip targets from much further away. You could try moving it to Pre-Mech, but then you'd have anti-synergy with Blade Staff's more limited aggro range. And Cool Whip already reaches Twins reliably anyway. I just don't know how you'd balance this thing.
Even with the very few whips in vanilla we see some of this: Dark Harvest tag is actually weaker than Morning Star's for single targets, so Dark Harvest doesnt necessarily replace it. Firecracker and Desert Tiger or Stardust Dragon have very very strong DPS, but the poor range of Firecracker is a meaningful downside, so you use other whips with them.
Morning Star as a main whip is better than Dark Harvest in practically every situation in general. It's just that if you don't use multiple whips, then Darvest is dead on arrival. Dragon and especially Tiger NEED Firecracker to be relevant in Whip DPS builds, else Dragon is outperformed (again DPS-wise) by Kaleidoscope + Cells or Terraprisma while Tiger especially is just about completely overshadowed by Tempest Staff, Raven Staff and to a lesser extent Deadly Sphere Staff.

First we have Tail Whip. A post plantera whip with 240 base dps, 30 tiles range, 11 tag damage and a special debuff that lowers defense by 16. Both the tag and the whip are slightly weaker than what both Morning Star and Dark Harvest can do, but the increased range makes it a safer choice. Additionally, TRAE has some Hybrid Summoner armors with special effects on whip hits, so Tail Whip's longest range and defense-lowering debuff for your other weapons makes it the best choice at proccing them.
Unfortunately I played TRAE and when I used Tail Whip in my hybrid build... I just went back to Morning Star. I don't even recall Tail Whip having noticeably longer range (Morning Star is plenty sufficient already), and IIRC Morning Star just does more damage & has an overall more impactful tag effect. And when it comes to the hybrid armor sets, I found the Melee/Summoner hybrid armor set to be more useful for Whip speed than its actual intended purpose (Melee speed on Melee weapons), so I could either abuse Morning Star's base damage more or I could simply waste significantly less time switching back and forth with it to refresh its tag. Then on another playthrough when I used the Ranger/Summoner hybrid armor set, my mindset wasn't "Better use Tail Whip to more easily proc the flight reset", but rather "Better take advantage of the flight reset to consistently refresh Morning Star's more potent tag effects".

Tail Whip isn't a bad weapon or anything but it's a victim of Ichor Flask and Morning Star's power.
Then Absolute Zero, a whip meant to be on the same tier as Kaleidoscope, with 300 base dps, 12 tag damage and 25% crit chance. This tag is overall stronger than what Kaleidoscope gets, but Absolute Zero has a massive 40% damage falloff, making it pretty bad on crowds. Kaleidoscope also has higher DPS on the whip itself.
Yeah this one works, you also forgot to point out its chance to briefly freeze targets on hit. I would have said that it simply replaces Kaleidoscope because of most minions already shredding crowds anyway, but Xeno Staff can only damage one hit at a time so yeah.
See, you agree.
The possibility of making diverse yet balanced whips that don't cannibalize each other's use cases, yes. But not the claim that Whip stacking makes it harder or limiting to create whips with different effects.
This is... how game progression works. Do you complain that The Mace is worse than Ball O' Hurt? Or that Musket is worse than boomstick? That Gold Broadsword is worse than Blade of Grass?
Not my point & I'm not complaining about progression. What I'm saying is that removing Whip stacking from the game will lead to whips (the ones we have in the game currently at the very least) less varied in use cases and cannibalize each other's viabilities, leading to less options & alternatives for optimized Summoner builds.

Mid-PM is no longer "Snapthorn" or "Snapthorn & Leather Whip". It's just "Snapthorn". And we both know that players tend to prefer rushing Jungle than going out of their way to buy Leather Whip. With stacking hypothetically gone, Leather Whip's big niche is completely gone. It's practically useless for optimizers and speedkillers alike. Same with Dark Harvest but even worse (You know, I'm noticing a trend of Morning Star perhaps being nerfable a bit). Doing Queen Bee or Deerclops after Skeletron is no longer "Spinal Tap, "Spinal Tap & Snapthorn" or "Spinal Tap, Snapthorn & Leather Whip". It's just "Spinal Tap". Pre-Mech with Blade Staff is no longer "Cool Whip", "Cool Whip & Spinal Tap", "Cool Whip & Snapthorn" or "Cool Whip, Spinal Tap & Snapthorn". It's just "Cool Whip".

Gone is the gradient of Effort-Reward, alongside the little bit of choice between Snapthorn and Spinal Tap as a support whip in Hardmode for the few like me (if there's anyone else that is). Now the entire build variety & nuance is summed up as literally just "Cool Whip" and nothing more.
Take for example Absolute Zero earlier. It has a strong tag balanced out by poorer crowd control. With whip stacking this disadvantage is meaningless because you can apply the tag and then go back to Kaleidoscope.
That's sick though. Feeling like you outplayed a game (or a mod in this case) is awesome.
Whip Stacking is not overpowered, but add more whips with strong tags in every stage, and it can get out of hand very quickly. For example the 20% crit chance whip you mentioned would increase DPS of whip stacked builds in early hardmode by 20%. Are Sanguine Staff and Blade Staff with 2-3 whips about equal? Well with this change Sanguine Staff would take the lead again. And Sanguine staff is one of the strongest weapons in its stage already.
That's true, but consider the fact that more diverse whips could also mean more attacks or projectiles that could miss or that are procced once by minions similar to Firecracker, limiting how much you can abuse with by stacking whips. I doubt Pre-Plantera is going to get more Durendal/Snapthorn variants, I doubt lategame is going to get more Morning Star/Kaleidoscope variants and so on. But more whips akin to Firecracker and Cool Whip are very plausible and they aren't really as abusable to stack together.

Also, wouldn't 20% crit chance benefit Blade Staff and Sanguine Staff equally? Btw came up with that number assuming no stacking.
I dont really get it. If other classes stick to pure that's appealing and straightforward, but Summoner sticking to whips (or just using other class weapon in a pure build, really) is not?
Talking about viability. Holding left click with a gun while running away is easy and doesn't require much thought at all. It won't get you the fastest killtimes most of the time but it's nonetheless a safe thing you can do. There are at least reasons and a few advantages to playing like that, but "Pure" Summoner using a whip with no stacking? You already have the lowest defense armor and most of the time using (viable) Ranged/Magic/Melee weapons alongside your minions will pull off more total DPS while also doing so from farther range depending on the weapon. And that's without considering the fact that you can also use a whip as a support weapon in a hybrid build to provide some tag (and Ichor in Hardmode). With that AND without stacking, it makes even less sense to use whips as main weapons. It's practically shooting yourself in the foot at that point when it comes to optimization. If the gap is only small or hell even moderate like it is now it's justifiable, but if/when it becomes outright large then there's a big problem. "Pure" Summoner shares weaknesses and "challenges" with Hybrid Summoner like subpar defense and needing to manipulate minions AI, but "Pure" Summoner is working harder for less. It does not need to become "A LOOOT less". At least when a "Pure" Summoner is stacking 2-3 whips, they are pulling some DPS and their build don't look like they begging to add a Ranged or Magic DPS weapon to basically 1.5x their total DPS.
Yeah, comparing Hellstone tier weapons (and bee's knees, op as :red: being above even Hellwing bow in that fight) to a Jungle tier weapon and surprise surprise, the latter is worse. Volcano is almost twice as strong as Blade of Grass. No joke the Blade of Grass equivalent in summoner is worse.
I'm sorry but this mindset and argument is just flawed on many parts, especially since IIRC you talk about how Hellstone is supposed to be obtained post-Skeletron.

First of all, the "intended progression" is just that, the intent and a "suggestion" so to speak. It is not reality, what everyone is doing, the meta nor what is actually SMART to do in some cases. You can argue about Jungle loot pre-boss being unreasonable, I'll let you have that. But Hellstone before Skeletron is somehow "illegal" or something, or is "unfair" to compare against Jungle equipment? No! It is in fact OPTIMAL for especially the average player to gear up with Hellstone before tackling one of the more dangerous Pre-Hardmode bosses stats-wise. In fact, when comparing Hellstone to Jungle, it is quite literally safer and easier to mine Hellstone with Obsidian Skin than it is to venture through the Underground jungle looking for Stingers, Jungle Spores and Vines. For an average player that reached Post-Evil but hasn't explored the Underworld or Underground Jungle yet, it's arguably easier for them to get a Volcano than a Snapthorn.

And if we want to hold Hellstone weapons to such high standards, then why Imp Staff? Why is a Hellstone minion significantly weaker than a pre-boss snow biome minion, as well as a Blood Moon fishing minion, and even, we went through this before, a surface wooden chest minion depending on the case? Even after multiple changes throughout 1.4 update cycle? Now let's check Ranged weapons. You call Bee's Knees an outlier, but Boomstick also competes with if not surpasses Hellstone on average. Two Ranged Jungle "outliers" (one of them being a drop from a dangerous boss) seems a lot to me. Let's not forget that Beenades pretty much eviscerates Skeletron's hands phase as well, harder than Hellstone weapons can (besides hyperaggressive Volcano). So is that THREE Ranged Jungle "outliers"??? By the way, if Volcano and Night's Edge are presumably supposed to be at around the same tier, then why is Night Edge's DPS so much higher, even taking into account the fact Volcano has AoE, which Muramasa just matches if not surpasses through sheer rapid damage output? Why is Flask of Poison 1.5x as strong as Flask of Fire?

This is why "intended" tiers at Pre-Skeletron are meaningless and are not to be taken beyond a grain of salt. Jungle and Hellstone are equally obtainable (Hellstone is easier if anything) & able to be compared at Pre-Skeletron. Some Jungle weapons outclass Hellstone weapons, while some Hellstone weapons outclass Jungle weapons. Imp Staff and Volcano being from the same ore ALONE shows that it's not worth taking very seriously.
This doesn't show Snapthorn is underpowered, it just shows there needs to be something inbetween it and spinal tap.
And how do you make & balance such thing exactly? A meaningful step up above Snapthorn without being on par with Spinal Tap. Spinal Tap has higher base damage, range, and slightly higher tag damage, sure. But it also lacks the whip speed boost as well as the Poisoned debuff. So it's really not that big of an upgrade. Also, what is in-between Jungle and Hellstone tier exactly? Meteorite? Meteorite with its outright mediocre Space Gun and outright bad Phaseblades, like straight up worse than the like of Undertaker and Ball O' Hurt at that point? Yet another reason to not take "tiers" in Pre-Hardmode too seriously.
Do you want Snapthorn to be as good as Volcano?
With minions it's already comparable to Volcano in viability and performance when taking into account the fact Snapthorn is not as risky against bosses, so my answer is "yes" before you even asked.
that boomstick (already considered OP by most people) needs to be as good as Bee's Knees or at least Molten fury,
Boomstick is considered OP because it can be rushed and looted pre-boss and it takes until Hellstone & Queen Bee drops before it stops being as relatively impressive. If Boomstick was hypothetically post-evil, it wouldn't be considered overpowered by anyone really. And no, I don't think Jungle ingredient & chest weapons should be comparable to Queen Bee drops.
that all magic weapons need to be as good as what an aggressive Demon Scythe (the strongest phm magic weapon in many aspects)...
No. Demon Scythe requires fighting one of the most dangerous Pre-hardmode mobs in an actively hostile environment while also getting lucky at the same time. Compare that to mining hellstone for a minute or two. I think you're tunnel visioning way too hard on the whole "tiers" thing and is missing context.
Then we have the plantera tests where you chose Fetid Baghnakhs (most stupidly polarizing thing ever invented) as the melee weapon. Or that mage has to use a close range weapon and keep plantera under two nimbus clouds and still be barely faster than Summoner. Or flamethrower being currently op as :red:. Showing off only 1 weapon per class really does have problems.
You take issues with these but hypersweat Whip Stacking four whips from me is fine and very practical in your eye? With Melee I don't even need to resort to Fetid and full on facetanking, both True Night's Edge and True Excalibur also kill Plantera significantly faster than Blade Staff. Also I don't even think the Mage setup was optimized because Venom Staff probably deals higher DPS upclose. The Ranger kill used mostly Chlorophyte Shotbow, but yes Flamethrower gets comparable DPS. All three classes have multiple ways of outdamaging Summoner with 3-4 whips that is controlled by me.
Your video only proves that Whip Stacking isn't overpowered in any way because other classes can do other also "unintended" things and be stronger, not that single whips are underpowered.
"Unintended"? Melee facetanking sure, but most of the non-Summoner kills simply used one or two weapons to their strengths. Especially stuff like Shadowflame Hex Doll where staying upclose is directly the entire point and design of the weapon.
If you want to show whips are underpowered, you need to show them compared to other weapons of the same stage, normal builds and gameplay. Going 110% in every single aspect to try and kill the boss as fast as humanly possible doesn't prove anything.
Pushing weapons to their limits (sometimes you just need to hold left click and not do much else) is a frankly more reliable and consistent way of comparing the potential & performance of most weapons. Like, it's straight up proven and established that speedkills (at least generally aggressive playstyles) often simultaneously shows which weapons perform the best overall. Flamethrower, Blade Staff Vs. Sanguine, Morning Star Vs. Dark Harvest, just how good Xeno Staff is in general, early 1.4.4 Night's Edge, early 1.4.4 Terra Blade, I could go on. It's not exactly a mystery that most of the time, the overpowered and dominant weapons are the ones that gets the fastest speedkills. Yes, this doesn't apply to EVERY single weapon and situation. But the standard is there. Speedkills are also how decisive evidence of Menacing Vs. Lucky was found & settled the debate (when minions are involved at least), and how Lucky Spectre Bubble Gun Vs. Summon Hybrid Bubble Gun on EoL was found to be around a tie, among other discoveries. Not trying to sound tryhard, but we kinda wouldn't be where we are today without speedkills honestly.

Also, a fundamental flaw of "normal gameplay" is that "normal" is very vague, and "normal" players are struggling against bosses and are focusing on surviving them instead of focusing on mostly their DPS. This leads to a lot of variance, more than constant aggressive gameplay. When for example I was grinding to get a sub-20 seconds kill on Master mode Empress of Light, I would consistently get 20-21 second killtimes. Now imagine a much lesser experienced player trying to test and compare weapons but they naturally struggle to dodge EoL confidently so they don't put as much focus on aiming their weapon consistently. Variance happens, if not sometimes just plain unoptimization/missed potential as well.

Both DPS test "styles" are valid and have their places, but if you ask me, a consistent aggressive playstyle more often and more consistently reveals the potential of weapons (or lack of). And in my opinion, depending on the context they should take priority over "normal player" testing.

Let me show you my skeletron tests:
1701393346596.png
I don't know what's your specific playstyle and I don't think you are a bad player or anything but even then I can see oddities if not things that should outright not happen. For example why is 5 Hornet slower than 5 Imp, even though Hornets fundamentally have higher DPS ceiling and many Imps just consistently interrupt each other with i-frames? That's just incorrect usage of Hornet Staff honestly. Another image of your tests you showed me somewhere else had Musket being 14 seconds faster than Boomstick on Skeletron, how does that happen? I could dive deeper into this and do tests on my own, but it's 3 am and I REALLY need to wrap up this reply and head to bed.
The summoner loadouts with snapthorn are significantly stronger than everything else.
Actually good if not meta on-tier Skeletron weapons in your image like Volcano, Hive Five and Bee's Knees matches if not crushes Summoner's times, while you frankly misused Boomstick and left out other weapons like Thunder Zapper and Demon Scythe which can match if not surpass Summoner. You also presumably left out support minions which as I said previously adds a lot of extra DPS.

I don't think Summoner or Snapthorn are necessarily underpowered against Skeletron, but it's nothing special against Skeletron.
If i minion mix (another rabbit hole for another time) summoner blows everything out of the water.
Frankly, If I optimize my own Skeletron tests I blow virtually all of your times out of the water & suddenly Summoner/Snapthorn aren't nearly as dominant at all. If you tested on Expert, which I believe you did, then the gap is just huge. 72s with Boomstick on Master Vs. 89s with Boomstick on Expert.

Sorry but when you are arguing about my interests to this extent and then bring out these genuinely slower-paced killtimes as decisive evidence while arguing that my own testing methods are invalid, I feel no other choice but to assert this. I'm gonna repeat myself: I think the person that has extremely faster & more optimized killtimes should have the priority saying on a topic about DPS like this one.

From my DPS test video

I don't even need to use support minions on other classes to outshine Summoner/Snapthorn, and contrary to what you claimed, they DO in fact add a significant amount of DPS and shave off a significant amount of seconds off the killtimes. This has been proven time and time again and if I end up having to reply to this thread again I'll happily prove it overwhelmingly with multiple tests across different tiers.


I spent too long writing this response but as a whole, if the new 1.4.5 Whips are improperly handled and end up poorly balanced, then removing Whip stacking will literally have brought a lot more harm than good to the game & Summoner balance.
 
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[just about everything in the first 5 paragraphs]
Honestly your whole analysis is granularized to the last :red:ing atom and misses the point entirely: Yeah my random ideas with a collective 2 minutes of thought aren't perfect, that's not the point. You can have meaningful differences between whips with plain numerical changes, and then you can get creative with more advanced special effects.

You think that doing firecracker again is boring? Do a firecracker with a flat damage tag too, so that it's if anything a sidegrade to it and not a straight upgrade. You are way too close minded if you think whips can't be unique.
Talking about viability. Holding left click with a gun while running away is easy and doesn't require much thought at all. It won't get you the fastest killtimes most of the time but it's nonetheless a safe thing you can do. There are at least reasons and a few advantages to playing like that, but "Pure" Summoner using a whip with no stacking? You already have the lowest defense armor and most of the time using (viable) Ranged/Magic/Melee weapons alongside your minions will pull off more total DPS while also doing so from farther range depending on the weapon. And that's without considering the fact that you can also use a whip as a support weapon in a hybrid build to provide some tag (and Ichor in Hardmode). With that AND without stacking, it makes even less sense to use whips as main weapons.
The whole thing by default assumes Whips are weaker than Main weapons, and even if they were (will not accept it until I see clear proof), that would be its own problem, whip stacking or not.
Im sorry but this mindset and argument is just flawed on many parts, especially since IIRC you talk about how Hellstone is supposed to be obtained post-Skeletron.

First of all, the "intended progression" is just that, the intent and a "suggestion" so to speak. It is not reality, what everyone is doing, the meta nor what is actually SMART to do in some cases. You can argue about Jungle loot pre-boss being unreasonable, I'll let you have that. But Hellstone before Skeletron is somehow "illegal" or something, or is "unfair" to compare against Jungle equipment? No! It is in fact OPTIMAL for especially the average player to gear up with Hellstone before tackling one of the more dangerous Pre-Hardmode bosses stats-wise. In fact, when comparing Hellstone to Jungle, it is quite literally safer and easier to mine Hellstone with Obsidian Skin than it is to venture through the Underground jungle looking for Stingers, Jungle Spores and Vines. For an average player that reached Post-Evil but hasn't explored the Underworld or Underground Jungle yet, it's arguably easier for them to get a Volcano than a Snapthorn.
Love it or hate it, the devs made Hellstone to be Late Prehardmode, and that is clearly reflected in the power level of hellstone items. I dont think that's ever changing and we are far more likely to see a buff to Hell than making hellstone mid prehardmode. Jungle tier is before Hell tier and before Queen Bee, that's balancing and that's why Snapthorn will be worse than any weapon you test of that stage.
You call Bee's Knees an outlier, but Boomstick also competes with if not surpasses Hellstone on average. Two Ranged Jungle "outliers" (one of them being a drop from a dangerous boss) seems a lot to me. Let's not forget that Beenades pretty much eviscerates Skeletron's hands phase as well, harder than Hellstone weapons can (besides hyperaggressive Volcano). So is that THREE Ranged Jungle "outliers"???
Man you¿ need to read the whole post before replying, i adress all of this in the tests
if Volcano and Night's Edge are presumably supposed to be at around the same tier, then why is Night Edge's DPS so much higher, even taking into account the fact Volcano has AoE, which Muramasa just matches if not surpasses through sheer rapid damage output? Why is Flask of Poison 1.5x as strong as Flask of Fire?
Little nitpicking: Nights edge is weaker than volcano too, it gets higher dps because NE's swings hits 2-3 things constantly. Muramasa is smaller than Volcano. Flask of Fire is a trash item that comes way too late to be useful, and so is flask of poison. Poisoned got a late 1.4.4 buff because it was bad and no one used it, as a result Flask of Fire is relatively even worse because both flasks are post evil at the earliest and
Mid-PM is no longer "Snapthorn" or "Snapthorn & Leather Whip". It's just "Snapthorn". And we both know that players tend to prefer rushing Jungle than going out of their way to buy Leather Whip. With stacking hypothetically gone, Leather Whip's big niche is completely gone. It's practically useless for optimizers and speedkillers alike. Same with Dark Harvest but even worse (You know, I'm noticing a trend of Morning Star perhaps being nerfable a bit). Doing Queen Bee or Deerclops after Skeletron is no longer "Spinal Tap, "Spinal Tap & Snapthorn" or "Spinal Tap, Snapthorn & Leather Whip". It's just "Spinal Tap". Pre-Mech with Blade Staff is no longer "Cool Whip", "Cool Whip & Spinal Tap", "Cool Whip & Snapthorn" or "Cool Whip, Spinal Tap & Snapthorn". It's just "Cool Whip".

Gone is the gradient of Effort-Reward, alongside the little bit of choice between Snapthorn and Spinal Tap as a support whip in Hardmode for the few like me (if there's anyone else that is). Now the entire build variety & nuance is summed up as literally just "Cool Whip" and nothing more.
We have so few whips that you start treating Prehardmode weapons like they should actually carry over to hardmode. If there is a whip on par with cool whip coming the build variety and nuisance is summed up as "Cool Whip & new whip" and the rest is just for pointless overoptimization. If you only use Leather Whip and Dark Harvest for stacking then those whips are already useless for you. Add a whip on par with snapthorn or another as good as (a nerfed) morning star and i bet you wont be using them for anything beyond overoptimizing again.
And how do you make & balance such thing exactly? A meaningful step up above Snapthorn without being on par with Spinal Tap. Spinal Tap has higher base damage, range, and slightly higher tag damage, sure. But it also lacks the whip speed boost as well as the Poisoned debuff. So it's really not that big of an upgrade.
Its apparently impossible to add a whip inbetween two whips...?

23 base damage, 5 tag damage, 8% tag crit, 33% falloff. Done in 1 minute. Nitpick the stats when its in game and you can properly compare it.

You take issues with these but hypersweat Whip Stacking four whips from me is fine and very practical in your eye? With Melee I don't even need to resort to Fetid and full on facetanking, both True Night's Edge and True Excalibur also kill Plantera significantly faster than Blade Staff. Also I don't even think the Mage setup was optimized because Venom Staff probably deals higher DPS upclose. The Ranger kill used mostly Chlorophyte Shotbow, but yes Flamethrower gets comparable DPS. All three classes have multiple ways of outdamaging Summoner with 3-4 whips that is controlled by me.
No, that was nitpicking, and showing another flaw with only showing the absolute best times: if you are going to use them as evidence that things need balance changes, you need to make sure everything there is balanced. Fetid is unbalanced in every way imaginable, flamethrower is clearly nerfable, shadowflame hex doll/nimbus rod combo combines a short range weapon with having to lure a boss into the cloud's small coverage so all of that should be better than other things... these tests can't be used as a baseline for anything.

Hell i already skip testing on Plantera entirely because of how centralizing her limited movement and the tentacles can be.

Also, wouldn't 20% crit chance benefit Blade Staff and Sanguine Staff equally? Btw came up with that number assuming no stacking.
Correct but you stack 2-3 whips with Blade staff so adding that one is harder than adding something else to Firecracker.

Both DPS test "styles" are valid and have their places, but if you ask me, a consistent aggressive playstyle more often and more consistently reveals the potential of weapons (or lack of). And in my opinion, depending on the context they should take priority over "normal player" testing.
I was very bold in implying that they are meaningless just because they are optimized, but i do take issue with only showing off the absolute best things. If this was 1.3 would you have used 1.3 Stormbow to call Mage and Melee underpowered? Obviously not. Tests to me are to get an idea of the average power level at the stage. No one is going around always packing uberoptimized loadouts against everything ever. Terraria is at its core a casual game so I test to get see what casual gameplay is like.

Doing things like, getting way up close to bypass velocity/accuracy issues, stacking 2-3 weapons to get around iframe issues, starting a boss fight with a tower of Chloro arrows or Nebula Arcanums that take out 25% of the boss health before it even begins, using 5 out of 6 accessories for DPS and neglecting everything else and so on just comes off as missing the point. I also feel like they are very prone to be taken out of context. Imagine that i compare Crystal Bullets to Chlorophyte bullets, but i play point blank with Crystal bullets so that almost none of my shots win and they come out on top... does the homing on Chlorophyte bullets suddenly not matter? What, am i going to balance the game implying every single person will be playing point blank with any gun they choose?

If anything the hyperfixation on speedkilling and overoptimization is leading to this very unhealthy mindset that everything that doesn't have a top tier speedkill is "useless", "unviable", "completely overshadowed", "dead on arrival" missing the bigger picture altogether. Just look at some of the things you said in just one reply:

Solo Leather Whip is always useless because Snapthorn is better even though Snapthorn comes from the Jungle and Leather Whip gets easier to obtain every update. Morning Star and Desert Tiger kills Empress of Light in 50 seconds, Morning Star/Raven Staff do it in 47 therefore using Desert tiger without Firecracker is unviable. Volcano is as good as Snapthorn because "it's unsafe on bosses" and apparently it doesnt matter that Volcano has well over twice the DPS inflicts a much stronger debuff doesnt give a :red: about defense is a massive sword that can take care of enemies easily- you get it.

I don't know what's your specific playstyle and I don't think you are a bad player or anything but even then I can see oddities if not things that should outright not happen. For example why is 5 Hornet slower than 5 Imp, even though Hornets fundamentally have higher DPS ceiling and many Imps just consistently interrupt each other with i-frames? That's just incorrect usage of Hornet Staff honestly. Another image of your tests you showed me somewhere else had Musket being 14 seconds faster than Boomstick on Skeletron, how does that happen? I could dive deeper into this and do tests on my own, but it's 3 am and I REALLY need to wrap up this reply and head to bed. Thunder Zapper and Demon Scythe which can match if not surpass Summoner.
Hornet had no hive pack there. With hive pack its 58 seconds. Also you underestimate imps, not that much but you do. Finch Staff shouldn't be good on bosses at all... that's just not how game progression or balance work. Thunder zapper is awful, 112 seconds when even diamond staff gets 96 thanks to the double hits on the head.

I redid musket/boomstick and it's 84 and 70 respectively, guess i mixed up the numbers last time. Good thing Boomstick is op anyways, although note Meteor Shots are post evil and that pierce matters against the hands.

Speedkills are also how decisive evidence of Menacing Vs. Lucky was found & settled the debate (when minions are involved at least), and how Lucky Spectre Bubble Gun Vs. Summon Hybrid Bubble Gun on EoL was found to be around a tie, among other discoveries. Not trying to sound tryhard, but we kinda wouldn't be where we are today without speedkills honestly.
Evidence of one thing that almost everyone agreed on and evidence of an overly specific comparison that doesn't have any weight on game balance...
Frankly, If I optimize my own Skeletron tests I blow virtually all of your times out of the water & suddenly Summoner/Snapthorn aren't nearly as dominant at all.
Yes i can also optimize down to the last drop of DPS and my times improve significantly too. I can also cheat progression and cut my times in half too (except for summoner because there is literally nothing, as i said like 5 times now). But i dont do it because it's largely pointless, if all of them have roughly the same on-tier loadout then the times will be similar, and when they aren't 99% of the time a balance issue is found.
 
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okay but in all seriousness, i don't see anything too wrong with whip stacking being in the game. you're only really going to go out of your way to maximize your dps unless you really care about that kinda thing
 
Honestly I don't think it needs removed, it doesn't break the game in any major way and it's a bit like Duke Fishron being fightable from early hardmode - most can't or won't do it, but it serves as a fun shortcut for those good enough to fight him with :red:ty weapons and armour.
 
I don't remember saying that whips outright can't have difference between them. You can divide whips into three parts: Damage, Range (Safety) and Tag/Debuff/On-Hit-Effect. The third one is the most important one and the purpose & viability for Whips in vanilla. Range is not directly related to DPS and minion interaction. And then Damage is just that, which includes damage falloff. The whole point of Summoner is that minions are your main strength & source of damage and that you buff them with whips. If you have whips that deal over half of the total DPS through base damage alone, then that greatly undermines the point of class and fuels the "Melee with summon damage" allegations does it not?

You can have whips that swing differently, directly shoot projectiles or even do completely different things that makes them not whips. But in the case of vanilla, every whip works fundamentally the exact same and by themselves they share basically the same traits, strengths and weaknesses (Can hit multiple targets but with damage falloff, average at best if not low single target DPS, mostly low knockback, mid-ranged relative to other weapons and same swing animation & hitbox shape).


It's more about use cases and clear advantages over competitors, even small ones. Leather Whip has absolutely zero sort of advantages or use cases over Snapthorn, Snapthorn is just a straightforward upgrade. Same with Spinal Tap over Snapthorn when there's no stacking. Both Dark Harvest and Morning Star are "Crowd control killer" whips, yet Morning Star is similarly good at it (if not better) while pulling noticeably higher single target DPS with the tag in mind. So without stacking, why bother with Dark Harvest at all when optimizing builds? The closest you could argue is Martian Saucer phase 1, but like 3.5x or something Morning Star base damage DPS is also really appealing so not really. Yes I'm aware Morning Star and Dark Harvest are considered a whole tier away from each other, but those two whips are the only new whips you can get Post-Plantera before Kaleidoscope, and both are particularly strong against crowds. Even if you moved Morning Star to Pumpking loot table or Dark Harvest to dungeon mob loot table, nothing would change when comparing the two weapons beyond availability.

If there was a Post-Plantera worm boss it would be an absolute treat for Dark Harvest, but there isn't one and I doubt there's ever going to be one in vanilla, so let's not think about it. Cool Whip with Durendal is like the only exception to all of this because of the Snowflake's noticeable damage output on Destroyer. Otherwise, Durendal's significantly faster speed, its higher base damage, higher range, lower damage falloff and higher tag damage makes it simply better for all other purposes whether mobbing or especially other boss fights. In fact, the snowflake just gets distracted against Plantera's 2nd phase.

(Not taking stacking into account) Whips are mostly very similar to each other when it comes to playstyle & use cases but with different potency. Firecracker lives in its own bubble because no other whip shares its specific role let alone competes with it, other than that Whips are mostly upgrades/downgrades from each other. Again, Re-Logic can try making more diverse, unique whips like Firecracker and Cool Whip and there's nothing preventing them to. I'm primarily talking with the present (1.4.4) in mind and if Re-Logic does pull it off and make whips a LOT more varied without obliterating the balance of the game, then it'll be amazing. But it's easier said than done.

Even if you make the base stats the same as Durendal but minus the whip speed buff, Firecracker would still be better for mobbing and boss fights when using Abigail or Sanguine. Comparing it to Cool Whip + Blade Staff however it's more nuanced, but I've already went over Cool Whip being an exception to this whole thing. And to be fair, your answer is... boring. It's just a very "generalist" whip that tries to be decent at everything and leaving no clear strengths or weaknesses to play around, just a bunch of numbers. Armor penetration debuff won't work because not only does Ichor Flask already exist, but the one minion you'd use this whip with (Blade Staff) already ignores 25 defense. This is what I meant by diverse yet balanced whips being easier said than done.

The only thing this achieves by itself is that instead of replacing Morning Star, you replace Firecracker. No one would complain about a WoF drop being outclassed in Post-Plantera, but that's not the point. The player still has the same amount of options Post-Plantera.

This wouldn't really work in Post-Plantera. The Dungeon and Temple are in tight spaces, and Post-Plantera minions like Deadly Sphere Staff are easily able to kill Eclipse mobs while you're hiding behind a wall or something. You also have Tiki Armor combined with Morning Star/Dark Harvest to be able to whip targets from much further away. You could try moving it to Pre-Mech, but then you'd have anti-synergy with Blade Staff's more limited aggro range. And Cool Whip already reaches Twins reliably anyway. I just don't know how you'd balance this thing.

Morning Star as a main whip is better than Dark Harvest in practically every situation in general. It's just that if you don't use multiple whips, then Darvest is dead on arrival. Dragon and especially Tiger NEED Firecracker to be relevant in Whip DPS builds, else Dragon is outperformed (again DPS-wise) by Kaleidoscope + Cells or Terraprisma while Tiger especially is just about completely overshadowed by Tempest Staff, Raven Staff and to a lesser extent Deadly Sphere Staff.


Unfortunately I played TRAE and when I used Tail Whip in my hybrid build... I just went back to Morning Star. I don't even recall Tail Whip having noticeably longer range (Morning Star is plenty sufficient already), and IIRC Morning Star just does more damage & has an overall more impactful tag effect. And when it comes to the hybrid armor sets, I found the Melee/Summoner hybrid armor set to be more useful for Whip speed than its actual intended purpose (Melee speed on Melee weapons), so I could either abuse Morning Star's base damage more or I could simply waste significantly less time switching back and forth with it to refresh its tag. Then on another playthrough when I used the Ranger/Summoner hybrid armor set, my mindset wasn't "Better use Tail Whip to more easily proc the flight reset", but rather "Better take advantage of the flight reset to consistently refresh Morning Star's more potent tag effects".

Tail Whip isn't a bad weapon or anything but it's a victim of Ichor Flask and Morning Star's power.

Yeah this one works, you also forgot to point out its chance to briefly freeze targets on hit. I would have said that it simply replaces Kaleidoscope because of most minions already shredding crowds anyway, but Xeno Staff can only damage one hit at a time so yeah.

The possibility of making diverse yet balanced whips that don't cannibalize each other's use cases, yes. But not the claim that Whip stacking makes it harder or limiting to create whips with different effects.

Not my point & I'm not complaining about progression. What I'm saying is that removing Whip stacking from the game will lead to whips (the ones we have in the game currently at the very least) less varied in use cases and cannibalize each other's viabilities, leading to less options & alternatives for optimized Summoner builds.

Mid-PM is no longer "Snapthorn" or "Snapthorn & Leather Whip". It's just "Snapthorn". And we both know that players tend to prefer rushing Jungle than going out of their way to buy Leather Whip. With stacking hypothetically gone, Leather Whip's big niche is completely gone. It's practically useless for optimizers and speedkillers alike. Same with Dark Harvest but even worse (You know, I'm noticing a trend of Morning Star perhaps being nerfable a bit). Doing Queen Bee or Deerclops after Skeletron is no longer "Spinal Tap, "Spinal Tap & Snapthorn" or "Spinal Tap, Snapthorn & Leather Whip". It's just "Spinal Tap". Pre-Mech with Blade Staff is no longer "Cool Whip", "Cool Whip & Spinal Tap", "Cool Whip & Snapthorn" or "Cool Whip, Spinal Tap & Snapthorn". It's just "Cool Whip".

Gone is the gradient of Effort-Reward, alongside the little bit of choice between Snapthorn and Spinal Tap as a support whip in Hardmode for the few like me (if there's anyone else that is). Now the entire build variety & nuance is summed up as literally just "Cool Whip" and nothing more.

That's sick though. Feeling like you outplayed a game (or a mod in this case) is awesome.

That's true, but consider the fact that more diverse whips could also mean more attacks or projectiles that could miss or that are procced once by minions similar to Firecracker, limiting how much you can abuse with by stacking whips. I doubt Pre-Plantera is going to get more Durendal/Snapthorn variants, I doubt lategame is going to get more Morning Star/Kaleidoscope variants and so on. But more whips akin to Firecracker and Cool Whip are very plausible and they aren't really as abusable to stack together.

Also, wouldn't 20% crit chance benefit Blade Staff and Sanguine Staff equally? Btw came up with that number assuming no stacking.

Talking about viability. Holding left click with a gun while running away is easy and doesn't require much thought at all. It won't get you the fastest killtimes most of the time but it's nonetheless a safe thing you can do. There are at least reasons and a few advantages to playing like that, but "Pure" Summoner using a whip with no stacking? You already have the lowest defense armor and most of the time using (viable) Ranged/Magic/Melee weapons alongside your minions will pull off more total DPS while also doing so from farther range depending on the weapon. And that's without considering the fact that you can also use a whip as a support weapon in a hybrid build to provide some tag (and Ichor in Hardmode). With that AND without stacking, it makes even less sense to use whips as main weapons. It's practically shooting yourself in the foot at that point when it comes to optimization. If the gap is only small or hell even moderate like it is now it's justifiable, but if/when it becomes outright large then there's a big problem. "Pure" Summoner shares weaknesses and "challenges" with Hybrid Summoner like subpar defense and needing to manipulate minions AI, but "Pure" Summoner is working harder for less. It does not need to become "A LOOOT less". At least when a "Pure" Summoner is stacking 2-3 whips, they are pulling some DPS and their build don't look like they begging to add a Ranged or Magic DPS weapon to basically 1.5x their total DPS.

I'm sorry but this mindset and argument is just flawed on many parts, especially since IIRC you talk about how Hellstone is supposed to be obtained post-Skeletron.

First of all, the "intended progression" is just that, the intent and a "suggestion" so to speak. It is not reality, what everyone is doing, the meta nor what is actually SMART to do in some cases. You can argue about Jungle loot pre-boss being unreasonable, I'll let you have that. But Hellstone before Skeletron is somehow "illegal" or something, or is "unfair" to compare against Jungle equipment? No! It is in fact OPTIMAL for especially the average player to gear up with Hellstone before tackling one of the more dangerous Pre-Hardmode bosses stats-wise. In fact, when comparing Hellstone to Jungle, it is quite literally safer and easier to mine Hellstone with Obsidian Skin than it is to venture through the Underground jungle looking for Stingers, Jungle Spores and Vines. For an average player that reached Post-Evil but hasn't explored the Underworld or Underground Jungle yet, it's arguably easier for them to get a Volcano than a Snapthorn.

And if we want to hold Hellstone weapons to such high standards, then why Imp Staff? Why is a Hellstone minion significantly weaker than a pre-boss snow biome minion, as well as a Blood Moon fishing minion, and even, we went through this before, a surface wooden chest minion depending on the case? Even after multiple changes throughout 1.4 update cycle? Now let's check Ranged weapons. You call Bee's Knees an outlier, but Boomstick also competes with if not surpasses Hellstone on average. Two Ranged Jungle "outliers" (one of them being a drop from a dangerous boss) seems a lot to me. Let's not forget that Beenades pretty much eviscerates Skeletron's hands phase as well, harder than Hellstone weapons can (besides hyperaggressive Volcano). So is that THREE Ranged Jungle "outliers"??? By the way, if Volcano and Night's Edge are presumably supposed to be at around the same tier, then why is Night Edge's DPS so much higher, even taking into account the fact Volcano has AoE, which Muramasa just matches if not surpasses through sheer rapid damage output? Why is Flask of Poison 1.5x as strong as Flask of Fire?

This is why "intended" tiers at Pre-Skeletron are meaningless and are not to be taken beyond a grain of salt. Jungle and Hellstone are equally obtainable (Hellstone is easier if anything) & able to be compared at Pre-Skeletron. Some Jungle weapons outclass Hellstone weapons, while some Hellstone weapons outclass Jungle weapons. Imp Staff and Volcano being from the same ore ALONE shows that it's not worth taking very seriously.

And how do you make & balance such thing exactly? A meaningful step up above Snapthorn without being on par with Spinal Tap. Spinal Tap has higher base damage, range, and slightly higher tag damage, sure. But it also lacks the whip speed boost as well as the Poisoned debuff. So it's really not that big of an upgrade. Also, what is in-between Jungle and Hellstone tier exactly? Meteorite? Meteorite with its outright mediocre Space Gun and outright bad Phaseblades, like straight up worse than the like of Undertaker and Ball O' Hurt at that point? Yet another reason to not take "tiers" in Pre-Hardmode too seriously.

With minions it's already comparable to Volcano in viability and performance when taking into account the fact Snapthorn is not as risky against bosses, so my answer is "yes" before you even asked.

Boomstick is considered OP because it can be rushed and looted pre-boss and it takes until Hellstone & Queen Bee drops before it stops being as relatively impressive. If Boomstick was hypothetically post-evil, it wouldn't be considered overpowered by anyone really. And no, I don't think Jungle ingredient & chest weapons should be comparable to Queen Bee drops.

No. Demon Scythe requires fighting one of the most dangerous Pre-hardmode mobs in an actively hostile environment while also getting lucky at the same time. Compare that to mining hellstone for a minute or two. I think you're tunnel visioning way too hard on the whole "tiers" thing and is missing context.

You take issues with these but hypersweat Whip Stacking four whips from me is fine and very practical in your eye? With Melee I don't even need to resort to Fetid and full on facetanking, both True Night's Edge and True Excalibur also kill Plantera significantly faster than Blade Staff. Also I don't even think the Mage setup was optimized because Venom Staff probably deals higher DPS upclose. The Ranger kill used mostly Chlorophyte Shotbow, but yes Flamethrower gets comparable DPS. All three classes have multiple ways of outdamaging Summoner with 3-4 whips that is controlled by me.

"Unintended"? Melee facetanking sure, but most of the non-Summoner kills simply used one or two weapons to their strengths. Especially stuff like Shadowflame Hex Doll where staying upclose is directly the entire point and design of the weapon.

Pushing weapons to their limits (sometimes you just need to hold left click and not do much else) is a frankly more reliable and consistent way of comparing the potential & performance of most weapons. Like, it's straight up proven and established that speedkills (at least generally aggressive playstyles) often simultaneously shows which weapons perform the best overall. Flamethrower, Blade Staff Vs. Sanguine, Morning Star Vs. Dark Harvest, just how good Xeno Staff is in general, early 1.4.4 Night's Edge, early 1.4.4 Terra Blade, I could go on. It's not exactly a mystery that most of the time, the overpowered and dominant weapons are the ones that gets the fastest speedkills. Yes, this doesn't apply to EVERY single weapon and situation. But the standard is there. Speedkills are also how decisive evidence of Menacing Vs. Lucky was found & settled the debate (when minions are involved at least), and how Lucky Spectre Bubble Gun Vs. Summon Hybrid Bubble Gun on EoL was found to be around a tie, among other discoveries. Not trying to sound tryhard, but we kinda wouldn't be where we are today without speedkills honestly.

Also, a fundamental flaw of "normal gameplay" is that "normal" is very vague, and "normal" players are struggling against bosses and are focusing on surviving them instead of focusing on mostly their DPS. This leads to a lot of variance, more than constant aggressive gameplay. When for example I was grinding to get a sub-20 seconds kill on Master mode Empress of Light, I would consistently get 20-21 second killtimes. Now imagine a much lesser experienced player trying to test and compare weapons but they naturally struggle to dodge EoL confidently so they don't put as much focus on aiming their weapon consistently. Variance happens, if not sometimes just plain unoptimization/missed potential as well.

Both DPS test "styles" are valid and have their places, but if you ask me, a consistent aggressive playstyle more often and more consistently reveals the potential of weapons (or lack of). And in my opinion, depending on the context they should take priority over "normal player" testing.


I don't know what's your specific playstyle and I don't think you are a bad player or anything but even then I can see oddities if not things that should outright not happen. For example why is 5 Hornet slower than 5 Imp, even though Hornets fundamentally have higher DPS ceiling and many Imps just consistently interrupt each other with i-frames? That's just incorrect usage of Hornet Staff honestly. Another image of your tests you showed me somewhere else had Musket being 14 seconds faster than Boomstick on Skeletron, how does that happen? I could dive deeper into this and do tests on my own, but it's 3 am and I REALLY need to wrap up this reply and head to bed.

Actually good if not meta on-tier Skeletron weapons in your image like Volcano, Hive Five and Bee's Knees matches if not crushes Summoner's times, while you frankly misused Boomstick and left out other weapons like Thunder Zapper and Demon Scythe which can match if not surpass Summoner. You also presumably left out support minions which as I said previously adds a lot of extra DPS.

I don't think Summoner or Snapthorn are necessarily underpowered against Skeletron, but it's nothing special against Skeletron.

Frankly, If I optimize my own Skeletron tests I blow virtually all of your times out of the water & suddenly Summoner/Snapthorn aren't nearly as dominant at all. If you tested on Expert, which I believe you did, then the gap is just huge. 72s with Boomstick on Master Vs. 89s with Boomstick on Expert.

Sorry but when you are arguing about my interests to this extent and then bring out these genuinely slower-paced killtimes as decisive evidence while arguing that my own testing methods are invalid, I feel no other choice but to assert this. I'm gonna repeat myself: I think the person that has extremely faster & more optimized killtimes should have the priority saying on a topic about DPS like this one.

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I don't even need to use support minions on other classes to outshine Summoner/Snapthorn, and contrary to what you claimed, they
Don't want to find the specific section where this was mentioned, but Phasesabers are getting a huge rework in 1.4.5, so they aren't boring anymore.
 
You think that doing firecracker again is boring? Do a firecracker with a flat damage tag too, so that it's if anything a sidegrade to it and not a straight upgrade. You are way too close minded if you think whips can't be unique.
Nowhere did I say that doing Firecracker again would be boring, what I ACTUALLY said is that basically doing Morning Star/Kaleidoscope again is boring.
The whole thing by default assumes Whips are weaker than Main weapons, and even if they were (will not accept it until I see clear proof), that would be its own problem, whip stacking or not[...]
Okay. You got it. I'm just going to refute this and some other claims/arguments in one fell swoop.

I spent a whole day on this. (Master Mode. No whips were ever used outside of "Pure" Summoner.)

Round 1: Miscellaneous build comparisons
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Round 2: Snapthorn Vs. Hybrid Summoner (Bee armor, both fighting alongside 2 Flinxs, 2 Frogs and 1 Imp)
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"Snapthorn is on par or stronger than Main weapons" "Snapthorn beats everything" No it does not. It bloody doesn't. You told me to post examples of weapons that surpass Snapthorn's contribution in Hybrid builds, so here's half a dozen of them across the three other damage types. And not only did I again not use whips as support/secondary weapons to boost the damage of my minions a lot in those non-Pure Summoner builds, but I didn't even use a single Underworld or Queen Bee weapon, not even Boomstick. I went out of my way to basically play by your rules and yet I made Snapthorn look like a bad weapon by comparison. And if you think I was "sandbagging" and playing worse with Snapthorn, look at my other Skeletron times where I stack Snapthorn with Leather Whip, it all matches up pretty well considering the gap in DPS. If anything, on the second round of tests I went just about as hyperaggressive on phase 1 with Snapthorn as I could for a 56s killtime. Snapthorn's jungle loot peers beats it when used together, an Underground Desert weapon matches it, MINISHARK beats it, PEW-MATIC HORN crushes it, the supposedly "awful" Thunder Zapper paired with Weather Pain beats it and even a weapon you buy from Traveling Merchant beats it without needing too much luck. Now imagine how much bigger the gap gets when other builds use Snapthorn itself as a secondary support and if we allow Underworld & Queen Bee weapons among other things. I don't think Snapthorn needs a buff or anything because it can stack with Leather Whip as well as use Obsidian Armor for higher DPS, but you said that Underworld items (other than Imp Staff I guess) for Skeletron are a big nono. Fact of the matter is, Hybrid dominates and you overestimate Snapthorn's base damage contribution.

"Thunder Zapper is awful" No it's not, it being able to reliably kill Master mode Skeletron when playing aggressively in 2 minutes or less on its own without other weapons or minions factually makes it viable. Also I don't know what's the difference with your game, but everytime I've used Diamond Staff on Skeletron it's just straight up lower overall DPS than Thunder Zapper because Diamond Staff doesn't double hit the hands or even specifically the head while it's spinning.

"Support minions are not as strong as you imply they are" Yes they are. Just adding two Flinxs on top of my otherwise plain solo Thunder Zapper Jungle Armor build shaves off 20+ seconds off what is otherwise a 1:50-2:00 killtime. That's a sizable and very noticeable difference. And then the full Zapper Summoner hybrid build (the one without Weather Pain that is) is only several seconds slower than Snapthorn. Other than that it's almost an entire minute faster than plain solo Thunder Zapper on average, nearly half the killtime.

"You underestimate Imp Staff" No. Hornet Staff without hive pack is around on par with it even though Hellstone tier is above Jungle. 5 Finches beats 5 Imps last time I checked. Volcano has so much more power and damage than Imp Staff it's not funny. Minions from earlier tiers beat Imp Staff in general, often by a large amount.

Anyway...


Little nitpicking: Nights edge is weaker than volcano too, it gets higher dps because NE's swings hits 2-3 things constantly. Muramasa is smaller than Volcano. Flask of Fire is a trash item that comes way too late to be useful, and so is flask of poison. Poisoned got a late 1.4.4 buff because it was bad and no one used it, as a result Flask of Fire is relatively even worse because both flasks are post evil at the earliest and
I don't understand what you mean by NE being "weaker" than Volcano in any ways. It's bigger, faster and more damaging. I'm certain this includes single target DPS as well. Muramasa's damage advantage is way bigger & more significant than Volcano's size advantage is. And man, for Hellstone gear supposedly being so strong, it sure has some relatively bad options like Imp Staff and Flask of Fire.
We have so few whips that you start treating Prehardmode weapons like they should actually carry over to hardmode. If there is a whip on par with cool whip coming the build variety and nuisance is summed up as "Cool Whip & new whip" and the rest is just for pointless overoptimization. If you only use Leather Whip and Dark Harvest for stacking then those whips are already useless for you. Add a whip on par with snapthorn or another as good as (a nerfed) morning star and i bet you wont be using them for anything beyond overoptimizing again.
Support weapons inherently aren't nearly as powercreeped by progression like actual DPS weapons are.

It won't be just "Cool Whip & new whip", it would in theory be "Cool Whip" or "new whip" or "Cool Whip, new whip & Snapthorn", stuff like that.

"Pointless overoptimization"? What is that even supposed to mean? Leather whip and Darvest "useless for me"? Is dealing & increasing DPS """""useless""""" now? Genuinely, what are you talking about? Just because I don't need Whip stacking to win doesn't mean that it's pointless and that these whips are bad. People have killed Moon Lord with only Copper Shortsword and Wooden Bow, those people didn't need Phantasm or Daybreak or Stardust Dragon and such. Does that make these weapons bad and useless for them? Of course not. This is just a bad argument.

You and I both could easily beat the game normally without using Ichor whatsoever. Does that mean Ichor is useless, pointless overoptimization? Are Rage/Wrath potions pointless overoptimization too? Is using Weather Pain as a secondary weapon pointless optimization too? I could keep going. This is just absurd.
23 base damage, 5 tag damage, 8% tag crit, 33% falloff. Done in 1 minute. Nitpick the stats when its in game and you can properly compare it.
This is literally not a meaningful step up above Snapthorn at all. It's barely an upgrade if at all. It's really a sidegrade because of no whip speed boosts, 1 less tag damage and no Poisoned.
No, that was nitpicking, and showing another flaw with only showing the absolute best times: if you are going to use them as evidence that things need balance changes, you need to make sure everything there is balanced. Fetid is unbalanced in every way imaginable, flamethrower is clearly nerfable, shadowflame hex doll/nimbus rod combo combines a short range weapon with having to lure a boss into the cloud's small coverage so all of that should be better than other things... these tests can't be used as a baseline for anything.
No. You CANNOT by any stretch of the imagination invalidate high-tier options from other classes while also letting hypersweat quadruple whip stacking Summoner pass as if it's a flawless, perfect representation of the class's realistic performance compared to the supposedly "unrealistic" others. Everything you described about the Mage setup is more practical for the average player than triple or quadruple whip stacking while also managing phase 2 minion aggro. Let's be honest with ourselves here.

Also, "if you are going to use them as evidence that things need balance changes, you need to make sure everything there is balanced". Is it just me or are you just contradicting yourself completely? Are you saying that to prove things need balance changes, I need to showcase things that... DON'T need balance changes? I don't follow. Besides, my DPS test/ranking video wasn't even about trying to prove that something things need to get nerfed, only that certain groups in Modded Terraria communities blatantly overestimates whips.
If this was 1.3 would you have used 1.3 Stormbow to call Mage and Melee underpowered? Obviously not.
I would've called pre-mech Ranger blatantly overpowered.
Doing things like, getting way up close to bypass velocity/accuracy issues, stacking 2-3 weapons to get around iframe issues, starting a boss fight with a tower of Chloro arrows or Nebula Arcanums that take out 25% of the boss health before it even begins, using 5 out of 6 accessories for DPS and neglecting everything else and so on just comes off as missing the point. I also feel like they are very prone to be taken out of context. Imagine that i compare Crystal Bullets to Chlorophyte bullets, but i play point blank with Crystal bullets so that almost none of my shots win and they come out on top... does the homing on Chlorophyte bullets suddenly not matter? What, am i going to balance the game implying every single person will be playing point blank with any gun they choose?
You are making the false assumption that I don't treat weapons with nuance, that I don't take average player skill level into account and that I mostly if not only judge weapons based on optimal usage & fast kills, which couldn't be further from the truth. If I was truly like that I would be dissing Vampire Knives instead of defending it, I wouldn't have made an entire video on my main channel talking about how Flying Knife makes it so much easier to survive for those struggling with pre-mech mobs, I wouldn't advocate for "right click" Summoner on WoF so much, I wouldn't be constantly calling Tank Melee the best class alongside Hybrid Summoner, I would rank Tempest Staff on par with Raven Staff because it can get comparable if not higher killtimes on Empress, I wouldn't advocate for Tiki Armor and its whip range increase so much, I wouldn't advocate for Step Stool early game so much, I wouldn't be using & advocating for accessories like Worm Scarf and Charm of Myths in playthroughs, I would be ranking weapons like Bubble Gun S+ even though I don't, I would be calling people who find daytime empress hard idiots even though I of course don't, I could go on and on.

I take both advanced players and average/beginner players into account when I talk about viability of items in this game. Something that is able to be optimized for amazing results on the hands of a more experienced player is going to get bonus points from me, likewise something that is particularly helpful and safe for average/new players is also going to get bonus points from me. Meanwhile, something that is inherently unreliable/inconsistent for regular playthroughs especially in the hand of clueless players like Optic + Spiders mix on Whip builds for Plantera despite the DPS ceiling, is stuff I'm going to and DID advocate against.

There's a good reason why even in this thread I keep specifying and separating "optimization", "average players" and so on.
Solo Leather Whip is always useless because Snapthorn is better even though Snapthorn comes from the Jungle and Leather Whip gets easier to obtain every update. Morning Star and Desert Tiger kills Empress of Light in 50 seconds, Morning Star/Raven Staff do it in 47 therefore using Desert tiger without Firecracker is unviable. Volcano is as good as Snapthorn because "it's unsafe on bosses" and apparently it doesnt matter that Volcano has well over twice the DPS inflicts a much stronger debuff doesnt give a :red: about defense is a massive sword that can take care of enemies easily- you get it.
You're putting words in my mouth, I never called Solo Leather Whip "useless", only that it would have no reasons to be used over Snapthorn if Whip stacking was removed. This is very different. Desert Tiger is a rare, difficult to obtain Biome Chest weapon and without Firecracker it's straight up just worse than Raven Staff, Tempest Staff and depending on circumstances Deadly Sphere Staff, even more so for mobbing/events if anything. For a "special" weapon intended to be powerful, that would indeed be a problem. Now the part about Volcano is just plain confusing. Half or most of Snapthorn's contribution comes from its summon tag damage, Volcano in Hybrid Summoner builds will have higher total DPS yes (duh) but Volcano's total contribution is not "over twice" that of Snapthorn at all. "Much stronger debuff" On Fire is 4 DPS, Poisoned is 6 DPS. Whip tags are debuffs too by the way just so you remember.
Evidence of one thing that almost everyone agreed on and evidence of an overly specific comparison that doesn't have any weight on game balance...
You'd be surprised at how many Discord server disagrees with and craptalks my video on Menacing Vs. Lucky (they are wrong but that is besides the point). As for the "overly specific comparison" the point is that speedkills and aggressive play were necessary & the most reliable way of comparing the two Bubble Gun builds.
Yes i can also optimize down to the last drop of DPS and my times improve significantly too.
Then I'd prefer if you do it that way.
I can also cheat progression and cut my times in half too
what

There is a difference with sweating and cheating.
 
Before i start the nitpicking i need to point something out. I asked you what buffs you think summoner needs and you replied to this:
1701547040686.png

and ffs we should've started off with this. I don't even disagree with most of this (every weapon needs tweaking and whips are not the exception).

This entire back and forth and a whole day spent testing to then say "oh Snapthorn is fine" "Cool whip maybe 1-2 more tag damage"... ik there are bigger buffs down there but the way you were talking sounded like you wanted significantly more strength for ALL whips, like the current whip stacked performance should be the standard.

now back to our scheduled programming:
Okay. You got it. I'm just going to refute this and some other claims/arguments in one fell swoop.

I spent a whole day on this. (Master Mode. No whips were ever used outside of "Pure" Summoner.)

Round 1: Miscellaneous build comparisons
1701525193853.png

Round 2: Snapthorn Vs. Hybrid Summoner (Bee armor, both fighting alongside 2 Flinxs, 2 Frogs and 1 Imp)
1701526116201.png


"Snapthorn is on par or stronger than Main weapons" "Snapthorn beats everything" No it does not. It bloody doesn't. You told me to post examples of weapons that surpass Snapthorn's contribution in Hybrid builds, so here's half a dozen of them across the three other damage types. And not only did I again not use whips as support/secondary weapons to boost the damage of my minions a lot in those non-Pure Summoner builds, but I didn't even use a single Underworld or Queen Bee weapon, not even Boomstick. I went out of my way to basically play by your rules and yet I made Snapthorn look like a bad weapon by comparison. And if you think I was "sandbagging" and playing worse with Snapthorn, look at my other Skeletron times where I stack Snapthorn with Leather Whip, it all matches up pretty well considering the gap in DPS. If anything, on the second round of tests I went just about as hyperaggressive on phase 1 with Snapthorn as I could for a 56s killtime. Snapthorn's jungle loot peers beats it when used together, an Underground Desert weapon matches it, MINISHARK beats it, PEW-MATIC HORN crushes it, the supposedly "awful" Thunder Zapper paired with Weather Pain beats it and even a weapon you buy from Traveling Merchant beats it without needing too much luck. Now imagine how much bigger the gap gets when other builds use Snapthorn itself as a secondary support and if we allow Underworld & Queen Bee weapons among other things. I don't think Snapthorn needs a buff or anything because it can stack with Leather Whip as well as use Obsidian Armor for higher DPS, but you said that Underworld items (other than Imp Staff I guess) for Skeletron are a big nono. Fact of the matter is, Hybrid dominates and you overestimate Snapthorn's base damage contribution.

"Thunder Zapper is awful" No it's not, it being able to reliably kill Master mode Skeletron when playing aggressively in 2 minutes or less on its own without other weapons or minions factually makes it viable. Also I don't know what's the difference with your game, but everytime I've used Diamond Staff on Skeletron it's just straight up lower overall DPS than Thunder Zapper because Diamond Staff doesn't double hit the hands or even specifically the head while it's spinning.

"Support minions are not as strong as you imply they are" Yes they are. Just adding two Flinxs on top of my otherwise plain solo Thunder Zapper Jungle Armor build shaves off 20+ seconds off what is otherwise a 1:50-2:00 killtime. That's a sizable and very noticeable difference. And then the full Zapper Summoner hybrid build (the one without Weather Pain that is) is only several seconds slower than Snapthorn. Other than that it's almost an entire minute faster than plain solo Thunder Zapper on average, nearly half the killtime.

"You underestimate Imp Staff" No. Hornet Staff without hive pack is around on par with it even though Hellstone tier is above Jungle. 5 Finches beats 5 Imps last time I checked. Volcano has so much more power and damage than Imp Staff it's not funny. Minions from earlier tiers beat Imp Staff in general, often by a large amount.
I take the L here but there are some observations i want to make:

My tests are very different: Thunder Zapper (79) loses to everything including Diamond Staff (73) (and if Diamond staff has pierce and similar DPS, then diamond staff is just better), only ranged guns beat snapthorn (consistently below 60), but i wasnt minion mixing, if i do snapthorn we get 58s and that either wins or has similar DPS to even boomstick.

Deerclops is post-evil too.

Imp Staff has the best wall of flesh performance, it's worse DPS than Hornet but Hornet is too slow for the wall of flesh fight, not piercing is a downside outside of bosses, and you need an additional slot for Hive pack so that mostly evens out. In my tests 5 Imps did not get beaten by Thunder Zapper i have no clue what's happening here.

5 imps beat 5 frogs in my tests (71s vs 75) so if 5 finches beat 5 imps then we have a problem with finches here... prehardmode summoner balance is honestly a giant mess caused by static iframes, look at these tests where 2 of the first minion you get increased your DPS by almost a third. Or how a single Vampire frog has 66 peak dps (a sanguine bat is 33ish for reference) This is why the Frog is only a small step up over Flinxes and then Imps are a small step up over frogs.

I don't understand what you mean by NE being "weaker" than Volcano in any ways.
Night's edge has 96 DPS, Volcano has 105. That's what I meant.
Leather whip and Darvest "useless for me"? Is dealing & increasing DPS """""useless""""" now? Genuinely, what are you talking about? Just because I don't need Whip stacking to win doesn't mean that it's pointless and that these whips are bad.
If you wouldnt use Leather Whip and Darvest if stacking was removed, then you already dont use them without stacking, and you think they are bad at their intended purpose (no whip stacking).
This is literally not a meaningful step up above Snapthorn at all. It's barely an upgrade if at all. It's really a sidegrade because of no whip speed boosts, 1 less tag damage and no Poisoned.
Snapthorn is 40 DPS with Jungle's Fury, this is 46. 1 tag is worse than a 1.08x multiplier basically always. Give it a bit more damage/crit if you test it and don't think it's enough, you get the idea here.
No. You CANNOT by any stretch of the imagination invalidate high-tier options from other classes while also letting hypersweat quadruple whip stacking Summoner pass as if it's a flawless, perfect representation of the class's realistic performance compared to the supposedly "unrealistic" others. Everything you described about the Mage setup is more practical for the average player than triple or quadruple whip stacking while also managing phase 2 minion aggro. Let's be honest with ourselves here.
I was talking about all 4 tests not just the non-summoner ones, that includes the quad whip stacking too.

Also, "if you are going to use them as evidence that things need balance changes, you need to make sure everything there is balanced". Is it just me or are you just contradicting yourself completely? Are you saying that to prove things need balance changes, I need to showcase things that... DON'T need balance changes?
You can't use Fetid Baghnakhs and quad whip stacking as your baseline. Or a simpler example, using something overpowered (flamethrower) to say anything worse than it needs a buff. I can't use those 4 tests as a reference for balance beyond just knowing what peak DPS looks like.
Half or most of Snapthorn's contribution comes from its summon tag damage, Volcano in Hybrid Summoner builds will have higher total DPS yes (duh) but Volcano's total contribution is not "over twice" that of Snapthorn at all. "Much stronger debuff" On Fire is 4 DPS, Poisoned is 6 DPS. Whip tags are debuffs too by the way just so you remember.
I thought it inflicted hellfire, my bad

You are making the false assumption that I don't treat weapons with nuance, that I don't take average player skill level into account and that I mostly if not only judge weapons based on optimal usage & fast kills, which couldn't be further from the truth. If I was truly like that I would be dissing Vampire Knives instead of defending it, I wouldn't have made an entire video on my main channel talking about how Flying Knife makes it so much easier to survive for those struggling with pre-mech mobs, I wouldn't advocate for "right click" Summoner on WoF so much, I wouldn't be constantly calling Tank Melee the best class alongside Hybrid Summoner, I would rank Tempest Staff on par with Raven Staff because it can get comparable if not higher killtimes on Empress, I wouldn't advocate for Tiki Armor and its whip range increase so much, I wouldn't advocate for Step Stool early game so much, I wouldn't be using & advocating for accessories like Worm Scarf and Charm of Myths in playthroughs, I would be ranking weapons like Bubble Gun S+ even though I don't, I would be calling people who find daytime empress hard idiots even though I of course don't, I could go on and on.

I take both advanced players and average/beginner players into account when I talk about viability of items in this game. Something that is able to be optimized for amazing results on the hands of a more experienced player is going to get bonus points from me, likewise something that is particularly helpful and safe for average/new players is also going to get bonus points from me. Meanwhile, something that is inherently unreliable/inconsistent for regular playthroughs especially in the hand of clueless players like Optic + Spiders mix on Whip builds for Plantera despite the DPS ceiling, is stuff I'm going to and DID advocate against.
This... doesn't feel like an answer to what i said there? I test casual gameplay because it's the most consistent reference, that's what the paragraph goes on about

ig it was in response to this:
If anything the hyperfixation on speedkilling and overoptimization is leading to this very unhealthy mindset that everything that doesn't have a top tier speedkill is "useless", "unviable", "completely overshadowed", "dead on arrival" missing the bigger picture altogether.
and with how much you describe things like that (even on minor differences) i still stand by it.

Desert Tiger is a rare, difficult to obtain Biome Chest weapon and without Firecracker it's straight up just worse than Raven Staff, Tempest Staff and depending on circumstances Deadly Sphere Staff, even more so for mobbing/events if anything. For a "special" weapon intended to be powerful, that would indeed be a problem.
like come on it's a 5% difference chill out
what

There is a difference with sweating and cheating.
you take everything too literally.
 
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