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Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

kunkun

Terrarian
my most immediate thoughts i want to adress concern the reaver shark and meteorite, and a suggestion that might be a god solution.

first of all allow meteorites to spawn before defeating the eater of worlds, it is a very common game machanic to introduce game elements before players can actually make use of it,
and thats for good reason, it makes it so players can encounter it and even though they cant interact with it it will add environmental flair, and then later on when they can interact with it, it will have that much more impact.
the only important thing to note is to cimmunicate this progression to the player, for example the tooltip of the nightmare pickaxe states that it can mine hellstone.

(my old suggestion:) now for my suggestion to be complete, my idea is to allow the reavershark to mine meteorite. this would make it so you can still mine meteorite before eater of worlds, and would give the reavershark some more utility, to achieve this a difference in required mining power is needed between meteorite and hellstone, and the tooltip of the reavershark needs to be updated to reflect this capability, it wont change much since you still need to beet the EoW, but it would introduce some variance in the paths that are available.

new suggestion: apparently it already can mine meteorite, so it makes even more sense to reflect this in the tooltip to make players aware of it, my suggestionbecomes, increase the mining speed of the reavershark and update the tooltip to make it so it states can mine meteorite, and make meteorites able to fall before defeating the EoW again. then disallow all pickaxes except gold and platinum and the reavershark to mine meteorite to make it more meaningful, and to also reward collecting early ores.

secondly a minor concern: i feel like desert fossil armor is over nerfed, it is a lot of work to acuire the needed fossils in a biome that is probably the second hardest to explore, and even though it is intended to give ranged classes an early armor option, it is in armor value entirely outclassed by what you get from EoW but also all the metal armors except the lowest tiers, a small buff in its armor value would be enough i think.

my third idea is to allow the slime staff to spawn from king slime as a reasonably common drop, it would make kingslime a bit more interesting, since the slime staff it entirely obsoleted as soon as you defeat the queen bee, allowing the slime staff to be required reasonably reliable would ensure it shows up in more games which would fill the gap in the lack of summoning items throughout the early game as well as make the king slime a more interesting meaningful boss, whereas the slimestaff would otherwise go unused or unseen for most players until very late into the game if ever, which is both a disservice to the item as well as it would give it a meaningful spot in the beginning of the game where it belongs.

someone else in this thread already mentioned how currently the early ores go mostly to waste, both in armor as well as in weapons these ores are mostly skipped, while i wouldnt suggest something as radical as requiring the lowest tier of early ore before you can mine the next one, and so forth, i would suggest equalizing the armor rates a bit, for example making gold armor a little bit more close to its platinum counterpart in defense rating while still being slightly worse.

my fifth concern is that fallen stars drop way too often, it litters the screen literally, and it doesnt only feel wrong it also turns collecting mana stars into something meaningless, it takes away from the game mechanic that is mana, in my opinion collecting your way up to maximum mana should be a meaningful accretion similar to collecting life hearts, lowering fallen stars dropping seems the best way to achieve both, while additionally i would suggest a hardmode mana item similar to lifefruits, altough i do know you wont be able to add new items into the game.

6th on the list is allowing an terragrima s a viable substitute for enchanted swords in the zenith recipe, it makes sense because it is part of the zenith animation and they are required the same way, a player shouldnt be punished for getting a terragrim.

some statements for which i dont have any arguments or that are too minor:

-nights edge and beekeeper could use a small buff because it is hard to aquire and is restricted to melee range while doing poor damage compared to ranged weapons of the same tier.
-i feel like enchanted sword was nerfed unnecessarily, since the nerf didnt achieve anything, for such a rare drop it should be pretty strong, but i dont have convincing arguments on this one.
increasing the damage a bit again would be enough
-since the celebration mk2 outmatched the drill containment unit greatly in mining speed i feel like this shouldnt be the case since they are the same tier and the drill containment unit is solely a mining tool whereas celebration is also a weapon
- the flower boots really lost their only use, so pls undo the nerf , because now they are meaningless
- make the gi part of the ninja armor, in the sense that it becomes a possible substitute

a suggestion you probably cannot implement anyway but i want to mention it anyway

flamewaker boots should have an effect if they can be combined into an accesory, maybe leaving a flametrail behind that sets enemies on fire?

also a lot of the moonlord drops are better versions of previously existing weapons with the exception of meowmere and the magic weapons, it would feel better if they required a crafting process that includes the previous interation, but that might also make the immediate drops potentially less exciting. but i think the end result would feel better because you both have to do more effort while also including the effort you had to do to get the previous version you probably are using at that point, making it feel less like a discarding your old weapon and instead makes it feel like you are building on top of it which would be more satisfying if implemented correctly
 
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qwerty3.14

Terrarian
I think fossil armor needs to be much cheaper, it's supposed to be an early game armor, but an early game character will get much more benefit from crafting some of the other fossil items, as much as I wanted fossil armor I was always in need of more fossil javelins, and scarab bombs and never had the resources to make fossil armor. Then there's the fact that ninja armor is basically just fossil armor which drops from king slime, even after the anti cheese fix king slime is still easy making it a lot easier to get ninja armor.

I suggest making fossil armor a lot cheaper. Currently the player has use 6000 javelins for the 20% chance not to consume ammo to pay off and that's the only advantage it has over ninja armor. Make the helmet cost 4 sturdy fossils, the legs cost 6 and body cost 8, for a total of 18 for the whole set. It will pay itself off after using 1800 javelins. If this is supposed to be early game armor it needs to be cheap otherwise player's will just end up skipping it.
 

The Storm

Plantera
Why not maybe refigure meteor armor into early game summoning armor? Maybe give it a set bonus meteor head that defends you or something. Or make meteor armor somehow power up all meteor based equipment.
That could work, since magic has 8 magic robes and 2 magic hats for a total of 16 possible combinations, it wouldn't loose much.
 

Talerax

Official Terrarian
someone else in this thread already mentioned how currently the early ores go mostly to waste, both in armor as well as in weapons these ores are mostly skipped, while i wouldnt suggest something as radical as requiring the lowest tier of early ore before you can mine the next one, and so forth, i would suggest equalizing the armor rates a bit, for example making gold armor a little bit more close to its platinum counterpart in defense rating while still being slightly worse.

I would be against requiring players to upgrade pickaxe by one tier at a time. This part of game is already consider the most tedious part, making it any more tedious would not be good.

also a lot of the moonlord drops are better versions of previously existing weapons with the exception of meowmere and the magic weapons, it would feel better if they required a crafting process that includes the previous interation, but that might also make the immediate drops potentially less exciting. but i think the end result would feel better because you both have to do more effort while also including the effort you had to do to get the previous version you probably are using at that point, making it feel less like a discarding your old weapon and instead makes it feel like you are building on top of it which would be more satisfying if implemented correctly

The easiest way might be making those upgrade version craftable from the previous one and luminite. Though this would make some moolord weapons become slightly easier to obtain as it can be crafted from guaranteed luminite drop, while the others will required killing moonlord several times depending on your luck. And this solution also lack consistent since I think it would make sense for only melee case, one drop and one craftable. But both ranged will be craftable, while none of magic and summon can be crafted.
 

Tyrian3k

Duke Fishron
Fossil armor is really in a weird place now. With the Desert even more dangerous than before and arguably as dangerous as the Jungle, the armor set you get from it is really quite weak in comparison. Maybe it could be changed to be an early summoner/ranger hybrid with ~+9% damage instead of the crit chance, +1 minion slot and the 20% reduced ammo consumption. Maybe also a slight boost to defense.



Also, did 1.4 make living mahogany trees a lot more scarce? I used to get 3-5 in even in small worlds before, but after creating three large worlds, I only got one single tree two of them and two in the third one. There used to be almost a dozen of them in large worlds.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
Phaseblade's need a buff, yes meteor armor, the space gun, and meteor hammaxe were to good to be pre EoW/BoC, but moving meteor to later in progression made the already very mediocore phaseblades even worse. They're quite literally worse than the space gun in every way when meteor armor is used. At the very least give them autoswing.

Prehardmode swords as a whole need to be reexmained and buffed acordingly the only swords I think don't need a buff are the enchanted sword and starfury. The beekeeper was considered one of the best swords prehardmode but that didn't mean it was amazing it was just a mediocre weapon on top of a sea of below average prehardmode swords.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
I think the reaver shark should mine faster, I understand nerfing its pick power, but right now it's just a slow plaitnum pick. I suggest making it a bit faster than the platinum pick so players are still happy about getting it early on without it completely wrecking progression. Lower it's `tool speed` from 18 to 13. The platinum pick has a `tool speed` of 15.
 

BlakeRossTheRabbit

The Destroyer
Zenith needs to be rebalanced. Just like everyone else said, it creates a power gap between the four classes. Last prism is OP too, but it had mechanics to keep it from doing too much damage. (Mana sickness, high mana consumption, etc.). Other class weapons have high mana consumption or expensive ammo as a fair trade for the damage they deal, but none of these weapons even come close to the damage output of Zenith, which gives it for free. The argument that "it's an endgame weapon you don't need it for progression anyways" is invalid. Nebula, Stardust and Solar armors were tweaked to balance the classes, but Zenith broke that balance.

About the Zenith again, here are some suggestions:
  • Have it deal universal damage. It's a celebration of EVERYONE's journey, after all.
  • Nerf it (limit the amount of times it deals per second, or have damage decreasing with range, etc.)
  • Buff the other classes' weapons.
Melee dealing slightly lower damage compared to the other classes is fair. They have the highest defense and damage reduction of any class. As of the 1.4 update Solar armor has been buffed to give higher damage and regen, which is also fair. But, with the zenith, melee players have highest defense, survivability, and damage. Zenith is the problem.
 

Flubman

Terrarian
Zenith needs to be rebalanced. Just like everyone else said, it creates a power gap between the four classes. Last prism is OP too, but it had mechanics to keep it from doing too much damage. (Mana sickness, high mana consumption, etc.). Other class weapons have high mana consumption or expensive ammo as a fair trade for the damage they deal, but none of these weapons even come close to the damage output of Zenith, which gives it for free. The argument that "it's an endgame weapon you don't need it for progression anyways" is invalid. Nebula, Stardust and Solar armors were tweaked to balance the classes, but Zenith broke that balance.

About the Zenith again, here are some suggestions:
  • Have it deal universal damage. It's a celebration of EVERYONE's journey, after all.
  • Nerf it (limit the amount of times it deals per second, or have damage decreasing with range, etc.)
  • Buff the other classes' weapons.
Melee dealing slightly lower damage compared to the other classes is fair. They have the highest defense and damage reduction of any class. As of the 1.4 update Solar armor has been buffed to give higher damage and regen, which is also fair. But, with the zenith, melee players have highest defense, survivability, and damage. Zenith is the problem.
I say introducing equivalent weapons for other classes would be the best solution because of how hard it is to craft the Zenith.

Edit: added clarification
 
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Mille Marteaux

Empress of Light
So. Flairon. The flail to end all flails. It's still king, but it feels kind of disappointing that I can't use it as an actual flail as well and that it's basically just the endgame version of the Harpoon/KO Cannon/Golem Fist.

Was it initially planned to function the way flails work now, or was it left unchanged since people use it as a weapon that grazes its target and pelts them with bubbles?

Flower Pow was edited to work the way flails do now and keep its projectile as well.. would it be possible for Flairon to do something similar? Release homing bubbles as it spins, then release the trail of them upon throwing it. Maybe have it constantly release bubbles when held down as well.

It's probably a lot to ask for, especially when the weapon functions more than perfectly fine, and is among the best melee has to get... It'd probably also be a downgrade since you can autoswing the extended projectile as well.

... You know what? Nevermind. I see why it wasn't changed now. I'm going to post this anyway since I still think it might be fun, but...

Have it deal universal damage. It's a celebration of EVERYONE's journey, after all.

This would be awesome. Just have it benefit from all types of damage increases.
 
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Omega Dapling

Plantera
So. Flairon. The flail to end all flails. It's still king, but it feels kind of disappointing that I can't use it as an actual flail as well and that it's basically just the endgame version of the Harpoon/KO Cannon/Golem Fist.

Was it initially planned to function the way flails work now, or was it left unchanged since people use it as a weapon that grazes its target and pelts them with bubbles?

Flower Pow was edited to work the way flails do now and keep its projectile as well.. would it be possible for Flairon to do something similar? Release homing bubbles as it spins, then release the trail of them upon throwing it. Maybe have it constantly release bubbles when held down as well.

It's probably a lot to ask for, especially when the weapon functions more than perfectly fine, and is among the best melee has to get... It'd probably also be a downgrade since you can autoswing the extended projectile as well.

... You know what? Nevermind. I see why it wasn't changed now. I'm going to post this anyway since I still think it might be fun, but...
I actually really like the idea of using the flail spin with the flairon and sending bubbles everywhere :D
 

nadomodan

Terrarian
space gun with meteor set is still overpowered, it still has way higher dps (damage * 60 / use time) than every other magic weapon before underworld or dungeon, pierces and if that wasn't enough costs no mana
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
space gun with meteor set is still overpowered, it still has way higher dps (damage * 60 / use time) than every other magic weapon before underworld or dungeon, pierces and if that wasn't enough costs no mana
Oh really a post Eow or BoC magic weapon is better than any other pre BoC or EoW magic weapon, but not as good as some magic weapons you get later in progression... sounds so overpowered.
 

Talerax

Official Terrarian
space gun with meteor set is still overpowered, it still has way higher dps (damage * 60 / use time) than every other magic weapon before underworld or dungeon, pierces and if that wasn't enough costs no mana

At this point where it is obtainable post-EoW, it is basically the same tier as dungeon or underworld. On the otherhand though, phaseblade does roughly equal to blood butcherer (21 vs 22 and same speed) that doesn't even need tissue sample as material. I would say meteor gears as a whole need to be adjust.
 

Baconfry

Terrarian
What if Bloody Tear was craftable at the Blood Moon Water Fountain (sold by the witch doctor), in a graveyard, with a bottle, 5 deathweed and 5 vertebra/rotten chunk? If it needs to be limited more, you could add something like 20 tissue sample/shadow scale.
Just requiring the Blood Moon Water Fountain should be good enough, since the Witch Doctor is a post-Queen Bee NPC.
 
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