Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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Baconfry

Terrarian
I believe they changed that staff (and many others) to use separate immunity frames.

From the 1.4 patch notes:
"Some (though not all) Summons now use their own damage immunity timer system. In practice, what this means is that they will no longer interfere with the use of other weapons by maxing out the enemy's immunity frames. All affected minions are set on their own damage timer to most correctly match their pre-change DPS, but some changes are to be expected comparing 1.3.5 DPS to 1.4 DPS. In general, even if there is some minor loss or gain of DPS compared to pre-change performance, it should be worth the improvement to overall performance. Examples of minions impacted by this change:
- Slime Staff
- Spider Staff
- Pirate Staff
- Optic Staff
- Raven Staff
- Deadly Sphere Staff
- Stardust Dragon Staff
- Some of the new summons also utilize this system"
The issue isn't that the Optic Staff interferes with the player's own weapons. The issue is that the Optic Staff interferes with itself.
 

DoofusNugget

Skeletron
(Regarding the new Frost and Pumpkin Moon rewards at the final waves): To be honest I wish the reward for completing the last wave of the Pumpkin and Frost Moon was longer. To consistently farm for goodie bags/presents you have to constantly keep doing Pumpkin and Frost Moons every night, which halves the amount of goodie bags/presents you can farm in one Terraria day.

Along with that the Christmas paintings seem like a huge pain to get when you're just doing Frost Moons. I've calculated the probabilities and found that you'd need to complete on average 442 Frost Moons at wave 20, just to have a chance to get all the 5 unique paintings from the Traveling Merchant. Keep in mind, doing 442 Frost Moons can take over 51 hours of your real life time.

I've posted all the calculations in another post earlier today here: PC - Probabilities Break Getting the Christmas Paintings

I didn't want to clog this post with all the calculations and probabilities, so I hope the link is okay and sufficient to post in this forum.

I might be off about it, but if my calculations are completely correct, it just seems insane how many Frost Moons you need to do. It likely wasn't the intention of the developers to make it this much of a grind. Even the items from the presents are only helpful in pre-hardmode, yet you can only get access to the Christmas event by cheesing your clock, waiting till December, or by grinding Frost Moons at an endgame level.

I think it would be better if they made it a really rare chance at the beginning of every Terraria day, (maybe 1/50 or 1/100 chance, something of the like) that the Christmas or Halloween event day can randomly occur for 1-3 days. This means the event items have more utility and value to the game, rather than just being commodities. Also, it would MUCH better if the reward from the Pumpkin and Frost Moon was extended to maybe 2 or 3 days instead of it just being 1 day. Don't get me wrong, I love that they added the reward to begin with, but it would improve the game so much more in my mind if the reward was extended or tweaked in some way.
 
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draeken

Terrarian
On progression: expert martian invasion is (from what i have heard) very hard. BUT, normal mode martian invasion is easy and gives lots of loot. Martian after golem is easier than the pumpkin and frost moon events, takes less grinding, and gives better equipment.

On equipment:
Things I like the most:
  • magic rebalance: you changed magic progression a lot, and it is good. The changes to sparkwand, water bolt, meteour gun, magic missile, cursed flame, genie lamp, heat ray and nebula blaze were all relevant to my progression
  • Meteor and Reaver shark nerf: before 1.4 I rushed meteor a lot. Now that I can't I enjoy pre-hardmode more.
  • Launcher buffs and additions: now they are playable, which is nice.
  • Summon immunity frame thing: great
  • Drill buff: big quality of life upgrade
Things I suggest for review:
  • spectre hood is a bit op.
  • The beekeper was balanced in 1.3, now it is a bit too weak to bother with.
  • The amarok buff seems unnecessary.
  • The enchanted sword has less ranged dps than a bow, so i dont understand the nerf , besides starfury is easier to get thanks to golfing.
  • Summoner early pre-hardmode progression is bad. If you want it to be playable as a pure/semi pure class, it needs a buff.
  • Jack-O-lantern now has less dps than rocket launcher. Approx 370 vs 440. Grenade launcher now has almost the same dps as jack-o-launcher
  • A small crystal bullet nerf would help balance.
 

JohannSimm

Retinazer
There should be more cold-themed enemies affected by the Warmth Potion's damage resistance. If the Snow Flinx is considered a source of cold damage for the purpose of this potion, there are many other enemies that should be as well, for consistency's sake.

I suggest:
– Frozen Zombie
– Undead Viking
– Armored Viking
– Ice Tortoise
– Ice Mimic
– Pigron
– Snowman Gangsta (to match other Frost Legion enemies; contact damage only)

Also, the reply to this Reddit post mentions that the Warmth Potion seems to (incorrectly) only affect projectile damage, not contact damage. The information is four years old, so I don't know if this was fixed or not, but it might be worth looking into.
 
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NatsumiRin

Terrarian
the first one just felt beyond fixing with Hallow infecting it from surface on downwards

That doesn't matter that much. Why? I'll tell you.

Mud Alone wont solve this, since it is not the mud that gets infected but the stuff that grows on it
by being able to take over the jungle via the grass and walls

It's not the plants or grass. The crimson/corruption convert mud to dirt and then take over the dirt.

The hallow doesn't do this. Hallow can't convert mud to dirt or any jungle tiles. It's the safest thing to be next to the jungle, since it can't convert the jungle and the evil biomes can't convert hallow.
Also, biomes can't spread through walls. It looks like it is/can but it isn't/can't.
 
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Yvori

Terrarian
I have to say that the rebalancing on the wings is superb. I've been making pages for them on the wiki, and it seems like they were kind of a mess before, with hard-to-get wings not having enough power etc.

Now the pre-mechanical boss wings are all weaker than the post-mechanical boss wings, and the boss drop wings are better than the craftable wings, etc. The progression feels so much more natural, and I think you guys nailed it!
On this topic though, we now have pretty much the same issue with Minecarts. Aside from a few standouts, most of them share nearly identical stats, which is a shame given how you obtain many of them. They feel sort of like cosmetic "dump items" that were just added to loot tables to dilute them further in some cases. If they were all craftable cosmetics or something then it wouldn't be much of an issue, but getting them from rare enemy drops, chests, etc. it feels like more of them should have unique abilities and differing stats.

@Leinfors are you planning to look into this? (Sorry if this one's already been suggested, a lot of pages to go through)
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
On this topic though, we now have pretty much the same issue with Minecarts. Aside from a few standouts, most of them share nearly identical stats, which is a shame given how you obtain many of them. They feel sort of like cosmetic "dump items" that were just added to loot tables to dilute them further in some cases. If they were all craftable cosmetics or something then it wouldn't be much of an issue, but getting them from rare enemy drops, chests, etc. it feels like more of them should have unique abilities and differing stats.

@Leinfors are you planning to look into this? (Sorry if this one's already been suggested, a lot of pages to go through)
I don't nessesarily mind the minecarts having more or less the same stats, I mean that's what vanity items do, I am however bothered that any post mech minecart will require the player to give up on the mechanical wagon to see thier fun minecart. A vanity minecart slot would fix my issue with this.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
On this topic though, we now have pretty much the same issue with Minecarts. Aside from a few standouts, most of them share nearly identical stats, which is a shame given how you obtain many of them. They feel sort of like cosmetic "dump items" that were just added to loot tables to dilute them further in some cases. If they were all craftable cosmetics or something then it wouldn't be much of an issue, but getting them from rare enemy drops, chests, etc. it feels like more of them should have unique abilities and differing stats.

@Leinfors are you planning to look into this? (Sorry if this one's already been suggested, a lot of pages to go through)

The current approach with the majority of the new Minecarts is that they are basically vanity carts.

That a handful of them (most notably, Mechanical Cart) do have some mechanical perks isn't currently enough for us to revisit the idea as a standalone function vs vanity slot setup.

I'm sorry you perceive cosmetic items as "dump items to dilute the loot tables". I never thought adding content, even cosmetic, would be taken that negatively.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
The current approach with the majority of the new Minecarts is that they are basically vanity carts.

That a handful of them (most notably, Mechanical Cart) do have some mechanical perks isn't currently enough for us to revisit the idea as a standalone function vs vanity slot setup.

I'm sorry you perceive cosmetic items as "dump items to dilute the loot tables". I never thought adding content, even cosmetic, would be taken that negatively.
Then can I make the simple request to give the meowmere minecart the same stats as the mechanical one? It's late enough to where expert players are still rewarded with the mechanical minecart.
 

BlakeRossTheRabbit

The Destroyer
[QUOTE="draeken, post: 1984958, member:
  • A small crystal bullet nerf would help balance.
[/QUOTE]
Don't. The shards don't even hit targets that effectively.
 

Tyrian3k

Duke Fishron
This isn't a huge deal, but with how you can get an Endless Lava Bucket and Sponge in pre-HM, I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to reward the Endless Water Bucket and Sponge from the Angler in pre-HM or maybe even from wooden crates. Considering that they are mostly just convenience items, they should really be easier and earlier to get.

The Hotline Fishing Hook also doesn't really have any business being a hardmode exclusive item any more since Lava Fishing is now a pre-HM thing.
 

Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
The Bundle of Balloons is worthless. I mean, it was always an item that needed way too much effort to get, but it's now really worthless. Between Journey's End mounts and the Soaring Insignia, there's basically no reason to ever get the thing. There are many items better than it that require way less effort to get. It's not even really a bragging rights reward, since it's not that good in and of itself.

You could make it easier to craft, able to be accessed pre-Hardmode. Fortunately, Sky Crates give out Shiny Red Balloons with reasonable enough frequency that, assuming you're willing to burn time fishing, you can get a decent number of them.

The big issue of course is the Sandstorm in a Bottle: an ultra-rare world generation drop, even in 1.4. Just allow different "in a Bottle/Balloon" items to be able to be used instead of the Sandstorm. Like say, Fart in a Balloon.
 

Yvori

Terrarian
The current approach with the majority of the new Minecarts is that they are basically vanity carts.

That a handful of them (most notably, Mechanical Cart) do have some mechanical perks isn't currently enough for us to revisit the idea as a standalone function vs vanity slot setup.

I'm sorry you perceive cosmetic items as "dump items to dilute the loot tables". I never thought adding content, even cosmetic, would be taken that negatively.
Perhaps I was a bit harsh there- but personally it'll hurt to open a chest looking for an Anklet of the Wind, or an Ancient Chisel, only to find bug-shaped minecarts which function exactly the same as one I could craft with some wood and iron, among other possibilities.

As QWERTY pointed out, giving up the mechanical cart for pretty much any other cart is pointless in Expert+ worlds too... And this could be solved, as well as making the other carts more useful as vanity items, by implementing Minecart Vanity slots. In fact, another one that a lot of players would appreciate (and have been asking for for years) is a Hook Vanity slot.

I'm not entirely sure how the code works, but I can't imagine just swapping the skin/lighting/particles of one cart/hook to another would be all that hard to implement. I know it's a big ask, and far beyond the scope of this thread, but for 1.4.1 (or heck, 1.4.2 if the madlads can't stop themselves) being able to get a good matching hook/cart combo for your outfit without giving up your favourite functionality would be fantastic.
 

BlakeRossTheRabbit

The Destroyer
I wouldn't think so; most of the targets you could need the large boost in DPS from the Crystal Bullets are large enough to be shredded by the shrapnel that is created by the bullet. It can obtain even higher DPS than the Luminite Bullets in some cases, so that should definitely be looked into.
But it still only works for single targets so DPS numbers are limited. Luminite bullets are for crowd control, so it's fair to have ammo good for more single target damage, I dunno. Also the shrapnels fire in the opposite direction so it's only good for targets dashing into you, but no significant damage boost for stationary targets. I think they could make it so that the shrapnels are guaranteed to hit targets before they would nerf it, so that it does the average DPS of both stationary and moving targets, and make it a little more consistent. But that overcomplicates things, so I think the current crystal bullets are ok.

And I almost forgot that the shards only deal 50% of the bullet damage so high defense enemies (aka bosses) don't get that much additional damage, the reason being most ranged weapons start with low base damage anyway. What I'm saying is that if they make the shard DPS more consistent, maybe they could nerf it. As a ranger I actually pump out more single target damage with chlorophyte or ichor/cursed/venom than crystal.
 
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qwerty3.14

Terrarian
But it still only works for single targets so DPS numbers are limited. Luminite bullets are for crowd control, so it's fair to have ammo good for more single target damage, I dunno. Also the shrapnels fire in the opposite direction so it's only good for targets dashing into you, but no significant damage boost for stationary targets. I think they could make it so that the shrapnels are guaranteed to hit targets before they would nerf it, so that it does the average DPS of both stationary and moving targets, and make it a little more consistent. But that overcomplicates things, so I think the current crystal bullets are ok.

And I almost forgot that the shards only deal 50% of the bullet damage so high defense enemies (aka bosses) don't get that much additional damage, the reason being most ranged weapons start with low base damage anyway. What I'm saying is that if they make the shard DPS more consistent, maybe they could nerf it. As a ranger I actually pump out more single target damage with chlorophyte or ichor/cursed/venom than crystal.
Even against a target dummy something which make no effort to 'charge toward' the player crystal bullets still have more single target dps than luminite ones.
Defense isn't enough to discourage using crystal bullets just fire a few ichor arrows every 10 seconds an you've basically eliminated the defense of the mech bosses.
The only time where I really notice crystal bullets being screwed by defense is when trying to use an onyx blaster or megashark against duke fishron's 30 defense after applying ichor.
Something to note about lumitie bullets is that you need to beat the final boss to craft them while crystal bullets are obtainable in early hardmode, if a post moonlord bullet is a sidegrade to one you get way earlier in the game don't you think that means crystal bullets might be a bit too op?
 

Nickural

Terrarian
Hello, been loving 1.4 so far. Playing a normal run with 4 friends or so (Hardmode at this point) and an Master Mode run (Pre Skeletron, Queen Bee at this point) by myself.
Several things I have noticed:
-Platinum/Gold and to an extent Tungsten/Silver armor aren't worth getting at all, the amount of bars it needs and the amount of defense it gives with no good bonus effects to them make it not really worth getting. If I wanted something from those bars I'd make a pickaxe, Jungle armor can be obtainable at any point too and is easy to gather materials for.

-Obsidian armor has no set bonus, and has less defense as wearing a full set of tungsten, pretty much not worth getting since explosives are needed or the corruption/crimson pickaxes.

-Yoyos, I've gotten an enchanted sword early on in my master mode run and used it most of the time. I then heard while playing with my friends that they were confused why Yoyos got damage buffs (Amarok mainly came to their mind). So later on I go back to Master Mode and find out about the yoyo called Amazon (Stronger than the corruption/crimson ones in damage and is available earlier, tis odd to my eyes), I get the stuff for it and make it. I still have yet to put the Amazon down, it's a very safe option, and has a gap in dps between it and swords I feel. It was my go to weapon for Eye of Chuthulu, King Slime, and Eater of Worlds. Point is that Yoyos outdo other counterparts such as Swords/Spears and even Boomerangs it seems, while not really having a cooldown like magic does with the variation in mana usage, it's range can also be patched with a string accessory (Which can be reforged very cheaply for warding).

Finch staff I have a love/hate relationship for, I'm grateful for an early summon. But this bird can't hit anything about player sized more than half the time, the other half it goes through the enemy only hitting once. I still have yet to get a Slime staff with how rare it is.

Overall though, the update feels great with most items being revamped for the better.

Edit: I introduced the problem without suggesting a solution, how silly of me!

Platinum/Gold/Obsidian, less bars needed to make or a good set bonus such as more speed, improved life regen, or reduced fall damage, just give it some sort of niche to fill so that players would want it for certain situations atleast. I heard awhile back from somewhere that someone would even love armor with something like more air in water.

Yoyos, less damage overall or less times it can hit per second.

Finch staff, I'd like it to hit the enemy, even if it's not as strong as the slime staff in that regard.
 
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