Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[Mail]

... it may not seem like a lot, but I do feel a few non-autofire weapon would be heavily impacted and need a second review....

Earlier comments suggest that they already did a lot of the review work.

Its actually my finding that non-auto-reuse weapons CANNOT reach optimal DPS, or at least do so for such short bursts of time as to be irrelevant. I had scenarios setup where I used four different fingers from 2 different hands clicking at abnormally high rate and I still couldn't even reach 95% "predicted" optimal DPS on weapons like Venus Magnum. The impact the Autoswing removal had on Bee Keeper was likely even more significant in practical context than the actually damage/use time changes made, which is why "just giving it back autoswing" is one possible solution I have on the table.

They put in a lot of work to estimate of how single-fire use times translate to autofire, so why not use those numbers?

With PreClick behavior you rarely miss-click melee swings, there is no need to force autoswing on a bunch of weapons for practical reasons. Adding PreClick probably solves the Bee Keeper issue. Lots of weapons have been getting autofire for practial reasons to work around the missed clicks issue despite it making no sense thematically for the weapons.

 

[Leinfors]

Is pre-click item use included?

Was told by the lead programmers that the work load required for implementation to their standards would not be a reasonable time investment. Never even got to the approval/deny stage, as it has to be approved by the programmers as workable first.

Its also something that would ONLY be doable by the lead programmers, and are major overhauls to the core game design, which is outside of the scope of this thread for discussion. I can't get it approved.

I'm sorry, but adding pre-click and/or making everything autoswing/autofire is not going to happen, at least not within the confines of this project.

Earlier comments suggest that they already did a lot of the review work.

They put in a lot of work to estimate of how single-fire use times translate to autofire, so why not use those numbers?

On the contrary, I do not have hard numbers for the vast majority of non-autouse items in the game. I only have data for some of them that otherwise showed up in the course of my testing. Such a change would require an extensive review process to start from scratch for a large quantity of weapons.

 

[Mail]

Was told by the lead programmers that the work load required for implementation to their standards would not be a reasonable time investment. Never even got to the approval/deny stage, as it has to be approved by the programmers as workable first.

I only ask that the programmers are made aware of the plugin. If they see it for themselves, they can understand that it is a small tweak and not a huge overhaul.
Edit: I wasn't exaggerating when I said the change only requires 3 lines of code.

 

[Justerbate]

Just curious, does your change sheet include any tweaks for Starlight and Nightglow? I was just reading a tier list stating Nightglow was solid (yay) and Starlight wasn't really useful. Im gonna quote that post below about the Starlight.
"it doesn't leave a lingering trail of projectiles to damage chasers. It works decently well against all the floaty, relatively slow enemies spawned by the Vortex Pillar, but it only works against a handful of foes from other pillars (notably Selenians, Brain Sucklers, and Star Cells). It won't perform well against bosses at all, as its damage output is not high enough to compensate for the downtime you'll experience while dodging attacks"

 

[DisRicardo]

Hey, @Leinfors and guys! Hope you're having a nice day!
If this doesn't fit the thread, could you please redirect me?

1.4 Has nerfed the accessories by not allowing accessories without visuals to be put into vanity slots.

As I understand it, this was done to 1. make players put only vanity accessories into vanity slots so the characters do not look like a mess, 2. disallow quick swapping that is thought to be OP, 3. free up vanity slots of most people and encourage them to fill said slots with the new vanity only accessories.

However I still regard this change as a reverse quality of life change, because it has

SEVERAL PROBLEMS:
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1. It increases the cluttering of the main inventory.
2. Accessories are more likely to be lost, cause in the process of constantly swapping an accessory between the inventory and the accessory slots you can't properly favorite the item once and for all.
3. We are less likely to use some particular non-visuals utilitary accessories at all, cause they are too much work to extract from your additional inventory in a situation when you would benefit from them, and they are certainly not worthy to be worn all the time. One of the examples is the Tool Box for builders. It used to chill in my vanity slots and was used when required, and now it sits in the corner of my accessories chest crying
4. In my experience the tooltip "can be worn in vanity slots" confuses most of the players at first. Their first instinct is to think that this item will work if put in a vanity slot and they don't bother to mouse over the equipped item and read ".. no stats will be gained". Some people keep thinking they are getting the benefits of the accessory for quite a while and it frustrates them that they find out the opposite.
5. Players' characters still look like a mess, cause most people would still put useful accessories that have visuals into vanity slots for quick swapping, rather than just cosmetic ones. And you can't currently make both the main accessory and the vanity one for the same slot to be invisible at the same time. So you end up with utility accessories in both slots and most of the time you want nighter of them to show, but you have to choose the lesser evil.
6. Swapping accessories can still be done pretty quickly with a bit of practice. The change has just made normal casual non-abusive accessory swapping more tedious, as you have to drag your mouse all across the screen and, possibly, open an additional inventory where you keep said accessory.
7. It feels frustrating being unable to put an accessory into a vanity slot without even understanding clearly why this change has been made in the first place (based on me asking a number of random players). So this change is perceived as anti quality of life one rather than a reasonable nerf.

MY SOLUTION:
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1. Reverse the change and let us put any accessory into the vanity slots as it used to be before.
2. Give vanity accessory slots their own visibility switch dot in the top right corner of the slot, so we can prevent messy looking characters.
3. Remove the tooltip "can be worn in vanity slots" from all the accessories that currently have it and insert "can be used as a vanity item" instead

I really hope I can somehow get this message to the Re-Logic team. This has been bothering me and numerous longtime players ever since the update.

Huge thank you in advance for your help!
Together we can make our amazing game even more enjoyable in small aspects like this

 

[Mental Mouse]

One thing which is not exactly equipment balance, but a QoL idea which is currently languishing in a misnamed suggestion thread:

Make Normal and infectious-biome torches corruptible (but not infectious) blocks. That is, let them automatically convert among normal, Corrupt, Crimson, and Hallow torches as the biome around them changes, whether due to infection or player intervention (Clentaminator etc).

 

[DarkPitEX]

The spreading biomes only spread through natural terrain blocks and plants, like stone, sand, and grass. It wouldn't make much sense for them to be able to convert torches, which are player-made. They could theoretically convert the wood in the torch to ebon/shade/pearlwood, but considering that placed wood (not trees) is immune to the spreading biomes it wouldn't make too much sense. The only reason for them to convert would be influencing your luck, but if you're farming in say, the corruption, its likely in an area you already knew was corrupted and set aside for that task, which then would already have cursed torches you placed. If you're just exploring, then you could easily craft a bunch of cursed torches by killing a world feeder or clinger, or just place the right torch automatically with the Torch God's Favor, and anyways waiting for biome spread to convert your torches would take ages, unless you're in hardmode but pre-plantera, in which case you're better off just clentaminating the entire area since it'll be recorrupted by the next ingame week because of the increased spread rate.

 

[CrabBar]

The spreading biomes only spread through natural terrain blocks and plants, like stone, sand, and grass. It wouldn't make much sense for them to be able to convert torches, which are player-made. They could theoretically convert the wood in the torch to ebon/shade/pearlwood, but considering that placed wood (not trees) is immune to the spreading biomes it wouldn't make too much sense. The only reason for them to convert would be influencing your luck, but if you're farming in say, the corruption, its likely in an area you already knew was corrupted and set aside for that task, which then would already have cursed torches you placed. If you're just exploring, then you could easily craft a bunch of cursed torches by killing a world feeder or clinger, or just place the right torch automatically with the Torch God's Favor, and anyways waiting for biome spread to convert your torches would take ages, unless you're in hardmode but pre-plantera, in which case you're better off just clentaminating the entire area since it'll be recorrupted by the next ingame week because of the increased spread rate.

Background walls are actually another thing that is affected, even if it's one-way interaction (blocks can corrupt walls, but walls can't corrupt blocks). Same could be done for torches easily.

As for why even convert torches, there is a simple answer: Hardmode V-spread. It changes huge part of the world, you have practically no way to predict where exactly it will land to put proper biome torches there, and keeps spreading at cosmic rates till Plantera death. Altars putting random patches of spreading biomes also contribute to that, albeit to lesser degree as they often hit spots you will never visit.

So far that change seems as a pretty organic continuation of biome lighting mechanics to me.

 

[Wolfen CQ]

While we're on the subject of biome mimic weapons... can we please get the blade staff moved to the hallowed mimic's loot pool.
The palette of the blade staff fits with the other hallowed mimic weapons.
The hallowed mimic also has only 4 drops while the crimson and corrupt mimic have 5.
I'm tired of ending up using the spider staff for 80% of hardmode simply because all the good minions between it and the xeno staff are super rare, this would help with that.

I agree with this 100%

 

[JohannSimm]

Some torch luck suggestions:

Currently, normal torches reduce torch luck by 0.1 in the Desert, Corruption, Crimson, and Hallow, but 0.3 in the Snow biome. This means that it takes two normal torches in the first four biomes to cancel out a biome torch's 0.2 bonus, but only one in the Snow biome. This asymmetry made more sense when torch luck could go below zero, but ever since that aspect of the mechanic was removed, the 0.3 penalty has become needless and arbitrary complexity. Functionally it's now only a 0.2 penalty in the Snow biome (because torch luck is now capped at 0 and 0.2), and there's really no reason anymore why it shouldn't be made consistent with the 0.1 penalty normal torches have in each other biome.

I also think it'd make sense if Cursed and Ichor Torches function like Coral Torches, and gave a 0.2 penalty while both outside of their respective biome and not in water. They'd still provide a bonus in the Corruption and Crimson as normal, and could be used underwater in any biome without an adverse effect on luck, but would have the same drawback as their basic variants. Currently these torches have no drawbacks, only upsides. Even with this change, they're still an improvement over Corrupt and Crimson torches.

Also, Bone Torches technically shouldn't provide a bonus in the Ocean, as the Ocean already has its own biome torch, and Bone Torches are only supposed to provide their bonus in biomes with no associated biome torch (like the Underworld). It doesn't make much sense that the Ocean should be an exception.

An additional point about the Wizard: Now that his < -0.6 luck quote is impossible to access (and possibly even his < -0.4 luck quote, now that negative luck is capped at -0.4), his negative luck quotes should be redistributed from < -0.2; < -0.4; < -0.6 to < -0.1; < -0.2; < -0.3. Either that, or the penalty of bad ladybug luck could be increased to the point where the quotes become accessible.

Negative luck quote	Current threshold	Updated threshold
"Negative energy is seeping from your pores. I wouldn't take any chances today." "Unfortunate omens hang over your head. You DID forward that letter, right?"	Luck < -0.2	Luck < -0.1
"I feel a terrible fate surrounding you! You should just stay in bed today!" "What manner of salt did you spill to receive such misfortune!?"	Luck < -0.4 (inaccessible?)	Luck < -0.2
"Stay away! You are dragging a behemoth of woeful bad luck in your wake! I want nothing of it!!" "Did you smash every mirror in [WorldName]!? You hapless fool, you are cursed beyond help!!"	Luck < -0.6 (inaccessible)	Luck < -0.3 (from killing golden ladybug only)

 

[Mental Mouse]

I wouldn’t want the Cursed and Ichor torches to have a penalty because that would just mean more torches that you can’t use casually, and the biomes already have their own proper torches. Arguably they correspond to the Rainbow torch (Indeed, making the Rainbow torch waterproof would actually be interesting, and would fit somewhat with their origin).

 

[Nekohime]

The Summoner Accessories seem to need to be reworked as most improve damage as well as other things on top of that.

Ogre Accessory (+10 Summon Damage, +1 Sentry)
Summoner Emblem (+15 Summon Damage)
Hercules Beetle(+15 Summon Damage, +2 Minion Knockback)
Necromantic Scroll (+10 Summon Damage, +1 Minion)
Papyrus Scarab (+15 Summon Damage, +2 Minion Knockback, +1 Minion)
Pygmy Necklace (+1 Minion)

This adds up to +65% Minion Damage, +4 Minion Knockback, +3 Minions, and +1 Sentry.
Make those all menacing and thats an addition 28%. And with the damage boost from armor you can easily do more then double damage and greatly increases their knockback beyond to more then 200% for most minions and can even reach insane knockback on some sentries.

 

[JohannSimm]

I wouldn’t want the Cursed and Ichor torches to have a penalty because that would just mean more torches that you can’t use casually, and the biomes already have their own proper torches. Arguably they correspond to the Rainbow torch (Indeed, making the Rainbow torch waterproof would actually be interesting, and would fit somewhat with their origin).

Rainbow Torch doesn't have a luck bonus. The other two do. Currently, the only other torch that gives a luck bonus without also giving a penalty is the Bone Torch, and it gives half the bonus and only works in biomes without their own torch.

Technically, you could make the same justification for Cursed and Ichor torches having no penalty to say that Coral Torches shouldn't have one either. This is also a valid alternative, and seems fair considering they are are the only biome torch that doesn't work with Torch God's Favour (and thus are harder to obtain).

Another alternative is to remove luck penalties from torches entirely, which frees up creative expression. If having torches you can't use casually is a bad thing, then there's no reason you shouldn't be able to use any of them casually.

Barring any of these ideas, I think having Rainbow torches give a bonus in the Hallow is a great idea. Since they're created using a Hallowed resource (Rainbow Bricks), it makes perfect sense that they'd provide a +0.2 luck bonus in the Hallow. Thus all three torches would belong to a class of "special torches" that are associated with a spreading biome, but without a penalty, combining the qualities of luck-based and decorative torches. I don't think Rainbow Torches necessarily need to be made waterproof, but it's a fine idea that matches the other two, and it gives them a wider decorative application.

 

[Dr. Endie]

Rainbow Torch doesn't have a luck bonus. The other two do. Currently, the only other torch that gives a luck bonus without also giving a penalty is the Bone Torch, and it gives half the bonus and only works in biomes without their own torch.

Technically, you could make the same justification for Cursed and Ichor torches having no penalty to say that Coral Torches shouldn't have one either. This is also a valid alternative, and seems fair considering they are are the only biome torch that doesn't work with Torch God's Favour (and thus are harder to obtain).

Another alternative is to remove luck penalties from torches entirely, which frees up creative expression. If having torches you can't use casually is a bad thing, then there's no reason you shouldn't be able to use any of them casually.

Barring any of these ideas, I think having Rainbow torches give a bonus in the Hallow is a great idea. Since they're created using a Hallowed resource (Rainbow Bricks), it makes perfect sense that they'd provide a +0.2 luck bonus in the Hallow. Thus all three torches would belong to a class of "special torches" that are associated with a spreading biome, but without a penalty, combining the qualities of luck-based and decorative torches. I don't think Rainbow Torches necessarily need to be made waterproof, but it's a fine idea that matches the other two, and it gives them a wider decorative application.

Torches negatively impacting Player Luck got patched out 1.4.0.3. It's in the changelog.

 

[Dapling]

Torches negatively impacting Player Luck got patched out 1.4.0.3. It's in the changelog.

They still negatively impact player luck, but only if there's positive torch luck actively happening.

 

[Dr. Endie]

They still negatively impact player luck, but only if there's positive torch luck actively happening.

Ahhh. I can see how that could be annoying.

 

[Mental Mouse]

They still negatively impact player luck, but only if there's positive torch luck actively happening.

To be more specific, having a normal torch nearby halves the bonus from having a biome torch, or cancels the effects of a bone torch, in the snow biome it cancels an ice torch entirely.

 

[Dr. Endie]

To be more specific, having a normal torch nearby halves the bonus from having a biome torch, or cancels the effects of a bone torch, in the snow biome it cancels an ice torch entirely.

Thanks for the info.

 

[DarkPitEX]

As for why even convert torches, there is a simple answer: Hardmode V-spread.

Oh right, you'd definitely want new torches there...and I couldn't agree more with the 'cosmic rates' bit. When you spend half an hour and almost 1 platinum on solution and only manage to decorrupt 3% out of 26%, well lets just say I might be fighting Plantera with the weak 1.3 Crystal Storm and no holy protection from Hallowed Armor.

I may play on console, but I've been keeping up to date with 1.4 news, and I'm sure we would all appreciate some extra luck farming for souls. You've convinced me, torch conversion sounds pretty great!

(Huge fan Crabbar! Been subbed since 2017 and you're easily one of the best terraria youtubers on the platform, and certainly one of my favorites. Keep up the great work, you fantastic individual!)

 

[Turndog]

The performance impact caused by the range scaled proportionally with the range. The higher the range, the larger the total area it was scanning for, and the more impact it was having.

However, I believe our increased range proposal is going to be JUST about 50, or 51.

It was originally something like 90 blocks, if my rough calculations are correct.

It's good. Thank you very much.

To tell you the truth, my screen size is 60 blocks on one side, so I want you to recover to 60 blocks.
But I can't complain. Because it is certain that you will cure The Scutlix's eyes.
Good luck with that.
I'm also looking forward to implementing damage buffs.

But if it's really possible, I'd like to see A Scutlix who can aim 60 blocks ahead.
If it's not too late, could you set the Scutlix attack distance to 60 blocks?
Of course, if it is not possible, there is no problem in 50 or 51 blocks.