Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[VDragunov]

Remember, minion slots don't translate to DPS directly. Minion slots translate into a decreasing chance of minions not attacking the target you want dead

That's kinda the reason why most summoner suggestions are pretty much summarized as:

"My minions are either blind or stoopid, please buff."

If minions are meant to be a compensation for the DPS the other classes get in terms of raw stats, then this is a very important point, the one that made me suggest for manual targetting to increase the agro radius of summons.

Because it doesn't matter how good a summon is in terms of damage, if it can't hit a moving target (AKA: every target that probably matters) why bother?

Now onto the other modifiers having effects on staves: not gonna lie, it'd be cool they (positively) affected the shooting/movement speed of the summons, it'd give them more modifiers to play with.

 

[CrabBar]

Remember, minion slots don't translate to DPS directly. Minion slots translate into a decreasing chance of minions not attacking the target you want dead, with very few exceptions.
Of all the summoner weapons, I only remember the UFO, the Celestial Dragon and the Desert Tiger to translate into DPS directly.
The UFO is a special case, has clearly the best AI of all minions and their attacks don't trigger invulnerability frames I believe. (It could have changed in 1.4, haven't tested yet, clarifications needed.) Increasing their numbers increases their firerate and their DPS directly. This is uncommon in the case of the summoner.
The latter two has a calculation in which, the first instance of that summon is worth more than the following instances of it, thus, the DPS increase is not perfectly linear there.

Yes, that's indeed true. In fact, the methods jump from one summon to the other so wildly that it's quite hard to weigh them all.
As far as I'm concerned after a little test, current categories are:

• Limited stack (doesn't benefit past certain point because of iframes): Slime, Vampire Frog, Imp, Optic, Deadly Sphere
• Unlimited stack (pretty much a multiplier based on slots): Finch, Hornet, Spider (?), Pirate, Blade, Sanguine, Pygmy, Raven, Sharknado, Xeno, Stardust Cell
• Special stack (one minion gets buffed; both current implementations give 33% of first minion damage per re-summon): Desert Tiger, Stardust Dragon

So, I was mistaken as well considering more minions at early game a solution. A lot of early-game summons simply won't redeem any viability with that, only Finch -> Hornet for preHM.
However, it's not "very few exceptions" either (although prior to 1.4 that would be definitely correct as most minions did inflict regular iframes).

That's kinda the reason why most summoner suggestions are pretty much summarized as:

"My minions are either blind or stoopid, please buff."

If minions are meant to be a compensation for the DPS the other classes get in terms of raw stats, then this is a very important point, the one that made me suggest for manual targetting to increase the agro radius of summons.

Because it doesn't matter how good a summon is in terms of damage, if it can't hit a moving target (AKA: every target that probably matters) why bother?

Now onto the other modifiers having effects on staves: not gonna lie, it'd be cool they (positively) affected the shooting/movement speed of the summons, it'd give them more modifiers to play with.

Yeeup. That's the main gripe for players, seems like. And that's why Sanguine staff and Xeno staff feel so powerful for when you get them: they can always hit something you intend them to, no major derping around. May not be the greatest damage output on something like Golem (Target Dummy 2.0), but in realistic conditions they will perform almost as well while tricky summons like Sharknado may fail miserably.

Manual targeting to buff summon IQ sounds pretty neat, actually. New summons clearly show that the limitations are for the most part artificial, so might as well give some means to improve their performance.

Not so sure about speeding them up with modifiers, though. As far as I'm concerned, the AI code cannot be really "sped-up" without manual/hardcoded instructions for each minion, aside from extra updates (maybe; plus that is too excessive buff as it is multiplying by a natural number). Definitely sounds cool on paper and could be the soil for some unique items.

imagine if crits actually doubled the attack animation speed for any chosen attack according to the chance

 

[VDragunov]

Yes, that's indeed true. In fact, the methods jump from one summon to the other so wildly that it's quite hard to weigh them all.
As far as I'm concerned after a little test, current categories are:

• Limited stack (doesn't benefit past certain point because of iframes): Slime, Vampire Frog, Imp, Optic, Deadly Sphere
• Unlimited stack (pretty much a multiplier based on slots): Finch, Hornet, Spider (?), Pirate, Blade, Sanguine, Pygmy, Raven, Sharknado, Xeno, Stardust Cell
• Special stack (one minion gets buffed; both current implementations give 33% of first minion damage per re-summon): Desert Tiger, Stardust Dragon

So, I was mistaken as well considering more minions at early game a solution. A lot of early-game summons simply won't redeem any viability with that, only Finch -> Hornet for preHM.

It wouldn't exactly play against them either, because you'd probably not have iframe problems till after you get the bee armor. The only reason the vampire frog staff wouldn't benefit by much is because it doesn't do enough damage (nor does it hit often enough) for it to be a viable option anyways. I'd rather have the finch smack something in my direction a million times over than use it.

Yeeup. That's the main gripe for players, seems like. And that's why Sanguine staff and Xeno staff feel so powerful for when you get them: they can always hit something you intend them to, no major derping around. May not be the greatest damage output on something like Golem (Target Dummy 2.0), but in realistic conditions they will perform almost as well while tricky summons like Sharknado may fail miserably.

What if the sharknados made a halo around you like the sanguine bats do? They have a passive hitbox, so the would be very effective up close, while also keeping some long-distance effectiveness by means of shark-shooting. It'd make them even more similar to the boss version of the attack too (specially if they can cover you in every direction because holy fugg, those things get everywhere)

300% certain thats pretty much coding a new summon so there's no way that'd make it in, but if it does. I'm totally yeeting progression to get that straight up after HM starts (maybe after getting the hallowed armor, because I suck at this game) after that.

 

[qwerty3.14]

Yes, that's indeed true. In fact, the methods jump from one summon to the other so wildly that it's quite hard to weigh them all.
As far as I'm concerned after a little test, current categories are:

• Limited stack (doesn't benefit past certain point because of iframes): Slime, Vampire Frog, Imp, Optic, Deadly Sphere
• Unlimited stack (pretty much a multiplier based on slots): Finch, Hornet, Spider (?), Pirate, Blade, Sanguine, Pygmy, Raven, Sharknado, Xeno, Stardust Cell
• Special stack (one minion gets buffed; both current implementations give 33% of first minion damage per re-summon): Desert Tiger, Stardust Dragon

So, I was mistaken as well considering more minions at early game a solution. A lot of early-game summons simply won't redeem any viability with that, only Finch -> Hornet for preHM.
However, it's not "very few exceptions" either (although prior to 1.4 that would be definitely correct as most minions did inflict regular iframes).



Yeeup. That's the main gripe for players, seems like. And that's why Sanguine staff and Xeno staff feel so powerful for when you get them: they can always hit something you intend them to, no major derping around. May not be the greatest damage output on something like Golem (Target Dummy 2.0), but in realistic conditions they will perform almost as well while tricky summons like Sharknado may fail miserably.

Manual targeting to buff summon IQ sounds pretty neat, actually. New summons clearly show that the limitations are for the most part artificial, so might as well give some means to improve their performance.

Not so sure about speeding them up with modifiers, though. As far as I'm concerned, the AI code cannot be really "sped-up" without manual/hardcoded instructions for each minion, aside from extra updates (maybe; plus that is too excessive buff as it is multiplying by a natural number). Definitely sounds cool on paper and could be the soil for some unique items.

imagine if crits actually doubled the attack animation speed for any chosen attack according to the chance

I really think that all piercing minions should use local immunity iFrames even if it means reducing the attack rate of individual minions to compensate. The reason is because summoner plays by the philosophy that base weapon damage + big minion horde does more damage than boosted weapon + small minion horde. That doesn't really work out when the big minion horde isn't any better than the small minion horde.

Like imagine if there's was an armor that gave you 100% critical chance, seems strong right? However using some potions and other items that require no gear investment you were able to reach 100% critical chance, well... now that armor is kinda pointless, that is the issue with a lot of piercing summons.

 

[Kardfogu]

Summons more often than not, stupid by their coded and intended nature.

Slime staff, unreliable jumper and moves slowly to mimic the movement of a slime.

Finch is... ...a bat.

Hornets and Imps slide around in the air,
often blocking their own line of sight.

The list just goes on and on.

These are all intentionally bad as their movement mimics the creature better this way. Which is sadly reasonable, what do you expect from a bird with mental problems who lives on the top of your head? Of course it can't hit anything more than once in a minute. It's a bird.

See, Relogic can program a working pet AI, but it wouldn't behave like a pet. That is too much to expect.

The closest thing I'd say is the Desert Tiger, which behaves like a cat, but turns into a ball of block-piercing rage upon seeing enemies. The way it fights is barely mimicing a cat, that's why it works kinda.

 

[Yvori]

These are all intentionally bad as their movement mimics the creature better this way.

This is an absolutely terrible justification. And let's be honest, aside from bosses (which don't really interact with terrain at all and generally have EXTREMELY fixed patterns and movement) most enemy AI boils down to "go directly toward what you want to hit, over and over and over, regardless of if said path is blocked or there's a very easily accessible entrance nearby", which is to say, absolutely terrible. Nevermind NPC AI which, they're fellow humans for the most part- they should have semi-intelligent AI but no, they're actually even dumber than practically everything but green slimes.

 

[Baconfry]

Going through Lunar Events again right now on Expert. Here are some thoughts:

-The lightning that naturally occurs near the Vortex Pillar is a fair attack by design: it executes after a delay, and it telegraphs its attack direction. However, it deals less than 20 damage. Let me remind you that this is Expert mode.

-Srollers and Corites are unfair by design. They can't be interrupted by knockback and they charge way too fast. They deal like 200 damage. If multiple of them spawn at once (which is almost always the case), you'll probably be forced into the air without an opportunity to land, and you know what that means.

-Nebula Floaters often teleport straight into the path of a moving player. They are also really obnoxious in general, but I'm sure you get that a lot.

-Stargazer beam appears instantly with no telegraph. We can add a telegraph, right?



On another note: Sharknadoes, Ravens and most other minions return to the player's side if their target goes too far away. This sounds fine until you realize that they won't attempt to retarget until the player tags them, and they usually move slower than the player. How can you touch a raven and dodge a boss when both of them are chasing you the exact same way?

 

[Kardfogu]

This is an absolutely terrible justification. And let's be honest, aside from bosses (which don't really interact with terrain at all and generally have EXTREMELY fixed patterns and movement) most enemy AI boils down to "go directly toward what you want to hit, over and over and over, regardless of if said path is blocked or there's a very easily accessible entrance nearby", which is to say, absolutely terrible. Nevermind NPC AI which, they're fellow humans for the most part- they should have semi-intelligent AI but no, they're actually even dumber than practically everything but green slimes.

I'm not justifying it.

However, these minions are crippled by the terrain because they do behave in a very well recognizable way that fits that creature they are based on.

I'm not saying that it is awesome, that Relogic picked creatures with physical or mental disabilities to be summons.
I personally hate that.
It's just, what you get for expecting a bat I mean bird to help you.

Even worse, it was Relogic's reasoning behind giving these summons incredibly dumb AI instead of a functional one that they are clearly capable of.

See Desert Tiger, incredibly glitchy and buggy, but it DOES fight fairly reliably.
The Sanguine Staff is just a recycling of the Zenith's projectile, it doesn't act like an animal at all, more like a rapidfire boomerang and... ...it makes it a more useful weapon.
There is this pattern. Summons designed after weapons, abstract objects or summons that don't even try to behave like the animal they are based upon are clearly superior.

Most summons are not lacking in stats, they are just unreliable by design.

As such, don't misinterpret me.
While I said, they behave as intended.
I didn't say that it is a justified intent.

 

[Baconfry]

but it DOES fight fairly reliably.

What does it fight fairly reliably? Armored Bones? Martian Officers? Against any boss it's pretty much scuffed, and for crowd control it doesn't compare favorably with the Spider Staff when using the same loadout.

 

[Kardfogu]

What does it fight fairly reliably? Armored Bones? Martian Officers? Against any boss it's pretty much scuffed, and for crowd control it doesn't compare favorably with the Spider Staff when using the same loadout.

Stacked up and wearing Tiki armor it is surprisingly damaging, a reliable way to fight bosses. The spiders are limited by your willingness to build huge multiscreen walled arenas while the tiger has no problem flying to bosses.
It's true it is surpassed by the UFO, but the Tiger works fairly well at stopping turtles and other highly mobile tanky jungle enemies before they get in the line of sight, similarly, the tiger does a fair job in a mostly untouched dungeon and other confined spaces where its ability to go through blocks is essential.

The tiger might lack damage compared to minions in the same tier, but it is not an objectively worse minion, just one with different situational strengths.

 

[The Storm]

-The lightning that naturally occurs near the Vortex Pillar is a fair attack by design: it executes after a delay, and it telegraphs its attack direction. However, it deals less than 20 damage. Let me remind you that this is Expert mode.

Actually, contrary to popular belief, that attack only spawns when a Vortexian is killed, and on expert with no defence it deals around 60 damage, which still is nothing.

 

[yudgefudge]

I'd like to bring up my problem with beam swords. Melee is melee, right? A class that is tanky because you need to fight up close, right? So why do the swords shoot projectiles? That discourages true melee. So my solution, here, is to make all beam swords act like the Beekeeper and Horseman's Blade, where you need to hit the enemy first to generate your projectile. It still encourages true melee, and allows you to use projectiles at the same time.

 

[Kardfogu]

I'd like to bring up my problem with beam swords. Melee is melee, right? A class that is tanky because you need to fight up close, right? So why do the swords shoot projectiles? That discourages true melee. So my solution, here, is to make all beam swords act like the Beekeeper and Horseman's Blade, where you need to hit the enemy first to generate your projectile. It still encourages true melee, and allows you to use projectiles at the same time.

I too have a strong distaste for melee being generally "ranged, but tankier, with longer range and requires no ammo", quite unfair honestly.
However this is kind of too late to throw in front of the devs, all hardmode bosses are designed to be mid-range bossfights of some sort.

 

[yudgefudge]

I too have a strong distaste for melee being generally "ranged, but tankier, with longer range and requires no ammo", quite unfair honestly.
However this is kind of too late to throw in front of the devs, all hardmode bosses are designed to be mid-range bossfights of some sort.

It would be a choice really. Remember that yoyos, flails and spears are all a thing.

 

[Kardfogu]

It would be a choice really. Remember that yoyos, flails and spears are all a thing.

You know this would lead to an outrage.
This is a nerf and not even a logical one in regard of the state of the game.

 

[Ilmarinen]

So my solution, here, is to make all beam swords act like the Beekeeper and Horseman's Blade, where you need to hit the enemy first to generate your projectile. It still encourages true melee, and allows you to use projectiles at the same time.

Those two swords have homing projectiles. You would have to completely refigure how all of the beam swords function to make a change like that work.

Remember that yoyos, flails and spears are all a thing.

Yoyos and flails yes but there's pretty much no spear that could touch most HM bosses except the Northpole. The Daybreak too if you consider it a spear.

 

[SsIras]

I'd like to bring up my problem with beam swords. Melee is melee, right? A class that is tanky because you need to fight up close, right? So why do the swords shoot projectiles? That discourages true melee. So my solution, here, is to make all beam swords act like the Beekeeper and Horseman's Blade, where you need to hit the enemy first to generate your projectile. It still encourages true melee, and allows you to use projectiles at the same time.

I may agree that melee should be better at close range.
However this problem shouldn't be solve with a nerf at all, considering melee is carried in boss fights by their ranged attacks.
What I would suggest instead is a thing that was already suggested a few times: make true melee damage higher.
Hitting a boss with the blade definitively should warrant a higher reward, maybe even give a melee accessory the ability to heal a little with true melee. This would encourage people to use true melee way more than just nerfing beam swords, the latter would just make people not use beam swords at all.
Of course, a little nerf to certain projectiles would be fine.

I must also note than ranged weapons are in general much better than beam swords, melee doesn't spend resources and has better defense, but overall, much less dps.

 

[Nicol Bolas]

I'd like to bring up my problem with beam swords. Melee is melee, right? A class that is tanky because you need to fight up close, right? So why do the swords shoot projectiles? That discourages true melee.

Who decides what "true melee" is?

Sword projectiles are pretty much the worst ranged weapon at their tier. Even with an early-game drop of the Enchanted Sword, the low firing rate of the beam means that their DPS can be beaten even by wooden bows of that tier, let alone any of the ore bows.

To me, the point of sword projectiles is to take the melee weapon with the lowest range and give it some utility outside of standing directly next to a single target. The low firing rate ensures that it would only really be useful when you're attacking one target at a distance. And even then, you'd be better off switching to a bow.

 

[Kardfogu]

I may agree that melee should be better at close range.
However this problem shouldn't be solve with a nerf at all, considering melee is carried in boss fights by their ranged attacks.
What I would suggest instead is a thing that was already suggested a few times: make true melee damage higher.
Hitting a boss with the blade definitively should warrant a higher reward, maybe even give a melee accessory the ability to heal a little with true melee. This would encourage people to use true melee way more than just nerfing beam swords, the latter would just make people not use beam swords at all.
Of course, a little nerf to certain projectiles would be fine.

I must also note than ranged weapons are in general much better than beam swords, melee doesn't spend resources and has better defense, but overall, much less dps.

The thing is, Relogic has a very clear state about this: they don't want to see melee weapons with melee range in their games used and even more so, don't want to reward high risk high reward gameplay.

The Fetid Baghnakhs did a fairly high DPS at the cost of having a limited range.

Relogic realized it was useful and "fixxed" it.
Now it is no longer useful.

Relogic's view on melee weapons is generally large, infinite range piercing projectiles that deal incredibly high damage per hit.

 

[SsIras]

The thing is, Relogic has a very clear state about this: they don't want to see melee weapons with melee range in their games used and even more so, don't want to reward high risk high reward gameplay.

The Fetid Baghnakhs did a fairly high DPS at the cost of having a limited range.

Relogic realized it was useful and "fixxed" it.
Now it is no longer useful.

Relogic's view on melee weapons is generally large, infinite range piercing projectiles that deal incredibly high damage per hit.

Because you could literally kill Plantera faster than she can kill you while standing?
That doesn't seem fair.
It's problematic to create a fair true melee sword that works agaist bosses because it's almost impossible to hit them without taking damage, and if you're beating bosses by getting hit by them, it's too easy.