Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[Tripoli]

Vortex:

• Give it dedicated hotkey to easily turn it on/off when needed
• Make it usable on mounts

You do know that Vortex works with Wings? And now there is Soaring Insignia for extra synergy? In post-ML 1.4. i roleplay as attack helicopter.

On the issue of Shroomite usabilty i don't really see problem with weapon-based bonuses, plus second helmet from your solution just invalidates stealth mode. However, i have an idea on what could be done with stealth mode itself. It can be made into Vortex-lite with following characteristics:
— activated on button
— can move around at slow speed, but cannot jump and fly, unless this crappy Shroomite Hoverboard is equipped.
Something like that would be fine.

 

[GenericUsername]

I know these aren't balance changes directly but I was wondering what other people's thoughts are on the following:

#1. Allowing the steampunker to sell the opposite variant of corrupt/crimson solution and flesh cloning vat/decay chamber while in the graveyard mini-biome, just like the dryad sells the opposite variant of corrupt/crimson seeds

#2. Including both crimson and corruption chests in the dungeon so that both the scourge and the vampire knives can be obtained on a single world. Since the creation of an artificial biome is necessary for both obtaining the shadow orb/crimson heart drops and for 100% completing the bestiary, I feel like this could be a logical change.

With the two changes above I believe it would be possible to obtain all corruption and crimson related items on a single world, which would not only add to the continuity of any given play-through but also remove the hassle of needing multiple worlds.

Also as a side note is there a reason the Christmas tree sword is not part of the zenith while the Horseman's Blade is? Just curious

In case you haven't seen this post yet (no worries, the thread has been getting long!):

Spoiler: From Leinfors

It would be interesting if we could implement a renewable system for these, something that would be challenging to get, but viable for multiplayer servers. That same system would, in theory, allow for alt-biome HM Chest obtainment, since alt-biome seeds are available. Its not currently what I'd consider an oversight, though, there are still a substantial number of items that are not guaranteed in a world.

I think, fundamentally, there is a design philosophy that not all items must be available in a single world. Pyramids are the most obvious example of that, but it is not limited to them.

A lot of people want everything available in one world. That is not currently something Terraria guarantees. We've moved towards more renewability in 1.4, but there are a number of holdout examples that haven't quite been made guaranteed/renewable yet.

I think #1 is a good idea, as far as the purple and red solutions go. Since the Dryad does sell the opposite seeds in a graveyard biome, the change would ultimately just remove the tediousness of making artificial biomes starting from seeds alone.

 

[ConfidentlyGrim]

I think my spear comment earlier was misinterpreted, because I wasn't talking about armour piercing I was saying how the should ignore more enemy immunity frames effectively letting you hit a enemy more times because they don't hit a lot to begin with

 

[FLUX2226]

It's OK to use the Zenith as a mage; you will not be thrown into mage-jail for it.

But then you can dump your entire mage gear because it doesn't benefit the Zenith. And if you get some Zenith gear instead, you effectively become a melee character. It's fine to have overpowered gear, but it shouldn't completely knock the class system over in favour of a single class. If the Zenith is the peak of everything, it should be a combination of all 4 classes that works differently depending on your gear, not an uber-melee that turns melee characters into powerhouses who surpass all other characters.

I assume that's the reason why many people complain about the Zenith. Being overpowered is fine, but being unbalanced isn't.

 

[Jabberwocky]

That doesn't mean you should be able to. Again, if I hold attack, I probably want to keep shooting the enemy I just shot. But the game doesn't give me that either; I have to manually move the cursor.

Why is your suggestion so different?



First, this is not about how I or any individual person plays the game; it's about how the game developers want the game to work. Choices like that are what game design is.

Second, you ignored my point. Specifically, that your argument is not a good argument because it could be used to justify any kind of automation feature. Being the player doesn't give you the right to have anything in the game that you want. Game design is all about choosing what a player should be allowed to do and when restricting players from doing it is interesting game design.

This is not a matter of your personal preferences; it's a matter of game balance. The game is not balanced around all melee weapons being auto-swing, just as the game isn't balanced around all ranged weapons having auto-targeting, just as the game isn't balanced around giving the player automatic healing. You could justify adding any of these, but then you'd have to radically change the game to compensate for them.

For a game that has had its last major revision, such radical change just isn't going to happen. And thus, changes that require other radical changes aren't going to happen.

It seems you've missed the point of this official thread entirely. Your reaction is as though I'm going to force it all to happen... although I'm not sure how that would negatively impact your experience. We were asked for feed back; I gave feedback. You've decided you unilaterally "know" what the developers want, and it's... conveniently... what you want or prefer, with no room for discussion or perspective. Given the existence of this thread, and its nature, I somehow doubt that.

The status quo being the status quo is never good justification.Many changes in Journey's End were made specifically to shake up the status quo. Your history lessons have no place here.

that being said, I stand by all my suggestions and reasoning. As many weapons... melee AND projectile... already autofire and still require aim, your argument makes no real sense... it's reductio ad absurdum. You're drawing a conclusion I didn't posit and then making fun of it.

 

[Cakeyeater]

I literally don’t get the point behind bashing the Zenith. You have to beat the moonlord to get it, meaning the system of progression is over. Why stick to classes anymore, you’ve done it, you’ve beat the game, mastered it even. At that point the weapons are as valuable as the trophies or relics. It doesn’t matter, it’s just a symbol of your mastery of the game. Besides, it cleans up everything relatively easily without specialized gear, and realistically all thats left to do is customize your world. For that purpose, the zenith works wonders at scouting and killing minor enemies. wanting special items or treatment because you cling to some idea of class purity in your personal run just ends up insulting the developers who worked so hard to bring you the game in the first place. It’s so selfish.

 

[Neutral Effect]

You do know that Vortex works with Wings? And now there is Soaring Insignia for extra synergy? In post-ML 1.4. i roleplay as attack helicopter.

On the issue of Shroomite usabilty i don't really see problem with weapon-based bonuses, plus second helmet from your solution just invalidates stealth mode. However, i have an idea on what could be done with stealth mode itself. It can be made into Vortex-lite with following characteristics:
— activated on button
— can move around at slow speed, but cannot jump and fly, unless this crappy Shroomite Hoverboard is equipped.
Something like that would be fine.

Spoiler: Reasoning

Using Vortex stealth still imposes a lot of requriements on player, which is undeniable. You might be fine with meeting those requirements (especially if You happen to be one of those players who would have used Vortex Booster (or other set of wings) + Soaring Insignia anyway), but that doesn't mean it's not ruining the fun for many other people. Some people are even inclined to dump wings totally in favour of more damage/utility accessories; not an option with Vortex Armor, though. I'm on the side of using wings, but without Soaring Insignia; as You can see, it slaughters any playstyle diversity. I think we can agree that is a bad thing.

As for the Shroomite:
Headgear change is purely for the sake of convenience. It does not actually buff player in any way, being rather a QoL change - akin to automatic item stacking to chest. You can still always have the bonuis for your chosen weapon even if you're using more than one, it's just that you need to do lots of swapping to achieve that. I don't see a reason not to make that change given it would not affect balance directly, and most likely be trivial to implement. Keep in mind that headgear suggestions I provided are just examples. I tried to make it clear by making separate sub-spoiler for that. Ultimately, it's for me to highlight the problem, and for devs to decide whether it's serious enough to fix it, and - if yes - then also how to do that.
Set bonus is ridiculous. Once again, it's not up to us to decide how it should be fixed given we're not the ones to do the hard work of implementing those changes; thus the example solution I provided was what I thought would be the easiest way to fix it (and once again, I thought I made that clear enough). Honestly, I'm fine if they do whatever with it, even remove the bonus; I'd just like to see them doing anything about it.

Ultimately, what I always have in mind: when considering single-player, fun is prime factor. Thus in most cases, it's better to go a bit too powerful than a bit too weak, and way too weak than way too powerful. Given the fact that there's no more content coming for terraria, balancing things out to make sure more choices are available to the player is essential. Otherwise, why bother?

 

[Jabberwocky]

I'm also going to go on record again in saying the new Underground Desert is TERRIBLE for the dubious rewards it offers. It's still a lot of small caves with little maneuverability, flying enemies, charging enemies, but now also includes triggered charging enemies, placed spikes (rolling cacti before hit), and LOTS of... effectively... boulder traps. Think of rolling cacti as boulder traps and ask yourself... does any area of pre-HM REALLY NEED this many boulder traps?

And for what? The only loot really worth looking for are the ocean port click and the mining buff accessory., and maybe the lodestone, all of which are mere conveniences The spear and magic weapon are awful for the risk involved. The snakes are temporary and rope is cheap and reliable (and common loot). The boots have many alternatives. The statue is a tiny defense boost that only really matters early pre-HM (well before you can probably get it), AND eats a buff slot in the process.

These evaluations change if you decide to fish in an Oasis... the loot from Oasis crates is more relevant and available sooner, unreliably... but, then, why have the Underground Desert at all, if it's just something people will skip for the hassle?

 

[CrabBar]

I literally don’t get the point behind bashing the Zenith. You have to beat the moonlord to get it, meaning the system of progression is over. Why stick to classes anymore, you’ve done it, you’ve beat the game, mastered it even. At that point the weapons are as valuable as the trophies or relics.

Well, poor mod creators, then. Players will bash them for nerfing a cool sword just to fit Post-ML progression properly.
This argument does slightly make sense in vanilla, but then why do developers re-balance that kind of content anyway (clearly seen by Solar/Nebula armors, Celebration, SDMG adjustments)? Surely not out of boredom; they likely consider Moon Lord loots a part of playthrough, even if not a major one.

Besides, it cleans up everything relatively easily without specialized gear, and realistically all thats left to do is customize your world. For that purpose, the zenith works wonders at scouting and killing minor enemies.

It sure does, no denying that. Quite utility-packed weapon in that regard. Does it have to be specifically melee for that, though? Or any dedicated class, for that matter (although out of all, Summoner will make the most sense: it will automatically cover your back like in the whole playthrough when building/fishing/mining/etc.)

wanting special items or treatment because you cling to some idea of class purity in your personal run just ends up insulting the developers who worked so hard to bring you the game in the first place. It’s so selfish.

... There are so many things wrong with phrasing of that statement.
But, indeed, by that definition a lot of people are selfish, because they want class system to be meaningful, not a bunch of words on the label of the weapon or other gear.

My position was and will be: if a dedicated class exists, it has to be 100% "comfortable" to play with through the entire game. Comfortable =/= easy at any part of the progression, more of "getting closely the same result as other classes on tier". Deviations can, should and will happen; bottomless pits of viability should not.
Thrower did die for this, and if, say, something like Summoner was deemed to be invalid too (and it is barely on the edge of that not happening), I won't truly mind if it was merged into Mage
supposedly that won't happen due to 4th pillar being fully formed content

Not willing for Zenith to become a symbol of "class system is useless". Let other kids have their toys as well.

 

[Neutral Effect]

I literally don’t get the point behind bashing the Zenith. You have to beat the moonlord to get it, meaning the system of progression is over. Why stick to classes anymore, you’ve done it, you’ve beat the game, mastered it even. At that point the weapons are as valuable as the trophies or relics. It doesn’t matter, it’s just a symbol of your mastery of the game. Besides, it cleans up everything relatively easily without specialized gear, and realistically all thats left to do is customize your world. For that purpose, the zenith works wonders at scouting and killing minor enemies. wanting special items or treatment because you cling to some idea of class purity in your personal run just ends up insulting the developers who worked so hard to bring you the game in the first place. It’s so selfish.

I think CrabBar summed things up nicely; I'd just like to add from myself that if developers did not want us to stick with classes, Zenith would not deal "melee damage", but rather universal form of damage that would be either increased by either all or none damage buff. That is not the case, though.

 

[BlueCorvid]

It sure does, no denying that. Quite utility-packed weapon in that regard. Does it have to be specifically melee for that, though? Or any dedicated class, for that matter (although out of all, Summoner will make the most sense: it will automatically cover your back like in the whole playthrough when building/fishing/mining/etc.)

Zenith, as the final weapon, makes sense to me as a melee weapon and specifically as a sword, because it mirrors the Copper Shortsword, the player's first weapon. It feels strongly to me like a nostalgia item, meant to recall the player's journey from beginning to end -- a hard-won trophy that helpfully also functions as mentioned. For me, finding all the pieces of Zenith and crafting it when 1.4 came out felt very much like working for all the pieces of the Terra Blade when I first picked up Terraria back in 1.2. It feels like a fitting end of the game for me.

For that effect, yes, it does work best as a melee weapon, I think. It would feel a little strange to me if, after all that time and all those iterations, it suddenly transcended damage types. Just like the humble Copper Shortsword is the only thing you have at the beginning (not just at the beginning of each playthrough, but the beginning of your first game, as a player), Zenith is the only thing left at the end. Bookends.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[AJ1AJ]

I feel like fishing poles are currently unbalanced. Especially the scarab fishing rod. Since its a fishing pole obtained by fishing its already hard enough to get with the low fishing power you might still have after crafting the fleshcatcher / fisher of souls. Since the biome crates are also rare you almost certainly wont get it before getting another better rod.

This is especially the case when compared to the golden fishing rod which I also feel gives the guaranteed copy a bit too early on when playing on difficulties like master mode where you might play through the game at a slower pace anyway. Since oasis crates can probably be obtained quicker with more fishing power, you would probably do angler quests even while trying to get the scarab fishing rod and considering the rarity of oasis crates and the chance of getting the right item from the crate, you probably wont be able to do it within the time you finish enough angler quests.
Even if we compared it to other fishing poles its still pretty bad since while chum caster has the same stats and is obtained in a somewhat similar way (through fishing) it also has an effect that could be useful even after you get better poles. As for the fibreglass fishing pole, since its also in some chests you might get "lucky" and get it so that's fine.

 

[Tripoli]

I think we can agree that is a bad thing.

I don't think so. Wings+Insignia+Stealth gives you much more in terms of damage and maneuverability than any 2 Acessories+Mount would. In fact i would have even called it OP, if Vortex wasn't still only third (now solid third) best ML armor, as its homing/AoE capabilities come at a cost, plus the feature i've described requires Expert-exclusive item.

Headgear change is purely for the sake of convenience. It does not actually buff player in any way, being rather a QoL change - akin to automatic item stacking to chest.

Keep in mind that headgear suggestions I provided are just examples.

Yeah, i see where you're coming from. Well maybe there is a merit to your words — after all Beetle and Spectre do give you different playstyle features, instead of arbitrarily locking certain weapons of your class away from you.

 

[Terrarian_Apple_Pie]

Since the majority agree that zenith is allowed to be op since it's post moonlord then why not buff some of the post moonlord armor sets.

Stardust armor is meant to be a glass cannon yet still pales in comparison vortex armor that when in stealth mode offers 116% increased range damage as a whole.
Additionally with soaring insignia vortex armor can easily facilitate stealth.

I propose that each piece of the stardust armor offers 45% minion damage increase so pure/non-pure summoner builds can be in the same damage tier as Ranger/mage

 

[FLUX2226]

Why stick to classes anymore, you’ve done it, you’ve beat the game, mastered it even. At that point the weapons are as valuable as the trophies or relics. It doesn’t matter, it’s just a symbol of your mastery of the game. Besides, it cleans up everything relatively easily without specialized gear.

Because people have preferred playstyles, that's the point of having a class system. Even with overpowered gear it's fun to have options for different loadouts.
You were already overpowered with Moon Lord drops before 1.4 and you had to kill him at least twice to get all drops for your class, the same amount that's required for the Zenith. But those drops were balanced between the classes. The Zenith takes this balance away.

Wanting special items or treatment because you cling to some idea of class purity in your personal run just ends up insulting the developers who worked so hard to bring you the game in the first place. It’s so selfish.

Voicing criticism isn't selfish, and class purity has always been a thing in all games that have classes. I suggested to make the Zenith class-independent. Have an adapting damage type that e.g. changes depending on your gear's highest damage bonus, maybe even add a small mechanic for the individual damage types if it's worth the effort. This would be a true zenith of power for all characters without having to add more items. Just don't give people the feeling that they are left out because of their chosen playstyle in a game that promotes different playstyles.

 

[SsIras]

Because people have preferred playstyles, that's the point of having a class system. Even with overpowered gear it's fun to have options for different loadouts.
You were already overpowered with Moon Lord drops before 1.4 and you had to kill him at least twice to get all drops for your class, the same amount that's required for the Zenith. But those drops were balanced between the classes. The Zenith takes this balance away.


Voicing criticism isn't selfish, and class purity has always been a thing in all games that have classes. I suggested to make the Zenith class-independent. Have an adapting damage type that e.g. changes depending on your gear's highest damage bonus, maybe even add a small mechanic for the individual damage types if it's worth the effort. This would be a true zenith of power for all characters without having to add more items. Just don't give people the feeling that they are left out because of their chosen play style in a game that promotes different playstyles.

While I do understand the point of nerfing Zenith, I really don't see it as a much needed change. Yes, it's better than other weapons, this doesn't take the fun of using a sword that summons bouncing rainbow cats or a magical beam of ultimate destruction. Unless you can only have fun by finding the strongest available weapon for the point of the game. Class locking is an imaginary concept, Zenith won't get much better if you switch to solar armor (it will go from destroying anything in less than one second to destroying anything in less than one second). You WON'T need Zenith unless you want to do some hardcore dungeon farming with x10 spawn.
Zenith ends up being an unfair weapon to challenge most bosses (including daytime EoL and Moon Lord), while all Moon Lord drops are still balanced enough to have some level of challenge in these. Zenith doesn't need you to switch armors, the other weapons do. Zenith is melee thematically, the other weapons are "balanced" according to their celestial fragment sets. I really prefer to have fun with Celebration over MKII than using a super op weapon, and to do that you just need to ignore the existence of Zenith.

 

[BlakeRossTheRabbit]

Vortex:

• Give it dedicated hotkey to easily turn it on/off when needed
• Make it usable on mounts

While I do understand your point, Vortex stealth is actually really viable. Literally any hovering wings can fix that problem. And there came 1.4, where the Celestial Starboard and the Soaring Insignia were introduced. As for shroomite, I think they could reduce the time it takes to enter stealth, and/or allowing to enter stealth while firing and not moving. If shroomite's set bonus would be toggled the same way as vortex's, it would make vortex's set bonus redundant. You can also just skip the set bonus and use red riding dress from the tavernkeep instead. And hey, it boosts your minions too!

 

[Cakeyeater]

I suggested to make the Zenith class-independent. Have an adapting damage type that e.g. changes depending on your gear's highest damage bonus, maybe even add a small mechanic for the individual damage types if it's worth the effort. This would be a true zenith of power for all characters without having to add more items. Just don't give people the feeling that they are left out because of their chosen playstyle in a game that promotes different playstyles.

Well, poor mod creators, then. Players will bash them for nerfing a cool sword just to fit Post-ML progression properly.
This argument does slightly make sense in vanilla, but then why do developers re-balance that kind of content anyway (clearly seen by Solar/Nebula armors, Celebration, SDMG adjustments)? Surely not out of boredom; they likely consider Moon Lord loots a part of playthrough, even if not a major one.

Not willing for Zenith to become a symbol of "class system is useless". Let other kids have their toys as well.

This is argument purely for Vanilla terraria, that's what the thread is for. I never intended for my argument to be applied to modders. I also don't believe the class system is useless, but that the Zenith shouldn't be seen as the final tier "melee class" weapon. It's more symbolic than any other weapon in the game. The melee tag makes sense, because of it's components. The Zenith has no magic, ranged, or summoner weapons, so adding those damage types doesn't really fit with the theme of the weapon. But the Zenith being melee is nothing more than that, a product of it's components.

In all other aspects it is a representation of the journey. It's crafting ingredients feature every major biome, progression step, and event. It's animation reveals weapons part of the Terra blade to further remind us of that. I'm no developer, so I can't speak for them, but it really offends and upsets me that you would all ignore the journey in favor of an equitable outcome, and I'm willing to bet at least one developer feels the same way. I really dislike seeing people demand full range support for something that functions regardless of your class, or arguments about the balance of the Zenith as a melee exclusive item leaving out other players, because to me it is a celebration of everything we've been through together. Even if you don't have optimized damage for the weapon (which doesn't need specific gear to absolutely wreck shop), having obtained it proves that you are at your Zenith. You are at your most powerful.

 

[scientistB]

It's made of only swords, it doesn't really make sense to give it any other damage type.

laughs in Terraprisma

...Although it does make me sad that my Terraprisma is still outclassed by the Zenith... while I'm wearing my full Summoner set.
...Nothing wrong with using both though. Once I've whipped something with my Kaleidoscope.

 

[Tripoli]

I really dislike seeing people demand full range support for something that functions regardless of your class, or arguments about the balance of the Zenith as a melee exclusive item leaving out other players

Yet you have to understand where they come from. Zenith was poorly communicated af.

having obtained it proves that you are at your Zenith. You are at your most powerful.

Which is why i recently suggested just making it Master mode exclusive. You know, to make the achievement you're talking about really worth it.