Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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The biome keys are still obscenely rare, with a drop rate of 1/2500 (0.04%). Now there's one more to collect. It might not be a terrible change if the drop rate were increased by some amount, perhaps to 1/1250 (0.08%) or even 1/500 (0.2%).
I also think Biome Keys are rare, maybe their drop rate could be boosted a bit after defeating Plantera. I don't really like that some of the items from their chests can remain forgotten for the entire game, given that they're teased during the first visit to the Dungeon.
 
I also think Biome Keys are rare, maybe their drop rate could be boosted a bit after defeating Plantera. I don't really like that some of the items from their chests can remain forgotten for the entire game, given that they're teased during the first visit to the Dungeon.
Biome Keys are probably intended to be a drop that you would eventually get by playing the game for long, they are available for all of hardmode and in theory you did have plenty of time to get all of them. But this is rarely the case, even though I like to play the game as slowly as possible, I rarely get the keys without some ludicrous amount of farming, I have either to rely on a REALLY long time of afk farm to get all five keys or be content with the one key I got in 40 hours of game.
Although, I did say the biome chest items do provide a lot of value, Rainbow Gun is an excellent secondary weapon, Scourge and Vampire are unique melee weapons that feel useful for a long time and Piranha Gun reword really makes it a very powerful weapon who terrorizes the Golem and the invasions you will be doing.
Tiger and Frost Hydra need some work though, if those two were as good of weapons as the others, I wouldn't mind getting only one key the entire playthrough (but either way, yeah, the key drop rate still needs review).
 
I have my own working spreadsheet and changes planned. However, one note: some of the enemies you removed Confusion immunity for are not necessarily "Confusion supported".

The big problem with Confusion, as I've mentioned before, is that it is an AI impacting Debuff that requires manual code support for each new AI type added to it. You can't just "turn off their immunity and now Confusion works on them". I mean, you could, but they wouldn't behave any differently. They would just have the debuff and behave normally.

So part of the task with Confusion is that I need to look into which enemies HAVE that code support, and extend it to as many as possible. Ultimately, unless there are some really easy ones to expand the code to, re-coding more AI support for Confusion is not likely to happen, because its significantly more time consuming than just changing immunity flags (which is something I can do myself).
I tried to remove Confusion only from enemies whose AI types had precedent, but I figured some misjudgements and errors were inevitable. Anything not easily achieved can be safely ignored.

Out of curiosity, which enemies were these specifically? I just realized Vultures and Ravens use their own AI type, so I'd assume they must be included.

I have realized that Cursed Skulls and Giant Cursed Skulls should really have the same immunities as I have given to Ghosts, Wraiths and other incorporeal enemies. They would then have immunity to On Fire, Poison, Venom, Cursed Inferno, Shadowflame, Frostburn, and Ichor.
 
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I have realized that Cursed Skulls and Giant Cursed Skulls should really have the same immunities as I have given to Ghosts, Wraiths and other incorporeal enemies. They would then have immunity to On Fire, Poison, Venom, Cursed Inferno, Shadowflame, Frostburn, and Ichor.

I could see Cursed Fire and especially Shadowflame burning spirits, and especially the Skulls.
 
I have my own working spreadsheet and changes planned. However, one note: some of the enemies you removed Confusion immunity for are not necessarily "Confusion supported".

The big problem with Confusion, as I've mentioned before, is that it is an AI impacting Debuff that requires manual code support for each new AI type added to it. You can't just "turn off their immunity and now Confusion works on them". I mean, you could, but they wouldn't behave any differently. They would just have the debuff and behave normally.

So part of the task with Confusion is that I need to look into which enemies HAVE that code support, and extend it to as many as possible. Ultimately, unless there are some really easy ones to expand the code to, re-coding more AI support for Confusion is not likely to happen, because its significantly more time consuming than just changing immunity flags (which is something I can do myself).
You must have one for armors too right? If not, I have one. It has a damage boost column which displays the sum of damage, crit and melee speed (the last one matters less, but I still felt it should be in there).
 

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You must have one for armors too right? If not, I have one. It has a damage boost column which displays the sum of damage, crit and melee speed (the last one matters less, but I still felt it should be in there).
Just so you're aware, the Spectre Hood seems to be missing, and Palladium (Magic) on row 37 is mislabelled as Mythril (Magic).

I could see Cursed Fire and especially Shadowflame burning spirits, and especially the Skulls.
It's possible, but I was simply basing this on the established convention. A large number of spirit enemies (Ghosts, Desert Spirits, Dungeon Spirits, Poltergeists, Pirates' Curses) have universal immunity (which messes up summon tag damage), and the ones that don't (Wraiths, Reapers, Floaty Grosses) are still immune to Shadowflame and Cursed Inferno (and should really be immune to Frostburn and Ichor as well).
 
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Just so you're aware, the Spectre Hood seems to be missing, and Palladium (Magic) on row 37 is mislabelled as Mythril (Magic).


It's possible, but I was simply basing this on the established convention. A large number of spirit enemies (Ghosts, Desert Spirits, Dungeon Spirits, Poltergeists, Pirates' Curses) have universal immunity (which messes up summon tag damage), and the ones that don't (Wraiths, Reapers, Floaty Grosses) are still immune to Shadowflame and Cursed Inferno (and should really be immune to Frostburn and Ichor as well).
You're right, big oversight here. Though I did say Spectre Hood matters little for stat analysis.
Personally I think it's interesting to note a few things:
- If you sort by damage boosts you will see Valhalla armor next to the cobalt sets.
- Hallowed sets are at the top of the damage boosts ranking, despite being renowned for it's set bonus.
- Titanium also has overall much better stats than Adamantite sets, and is also known for it's powerful set bonus, while Adamantite is probably supposed to be the one with better stats.
- Red Riding being way below in damage boosts against other OOA final tier sets (excluding Valhalla of course)
- Cobalt being way worse than Palladium in general
 
Sslras, summing bonuses is not the best way to compare bonuses. I suggest you multiply percentages. Still, that table is lovely.
 
Sslras, summing bonuses is not the best way to compare bonuses. I suggest you multiply percentages. Still, that table is lovely.
Maybe so, I haven't gone too far to see the best way, and something that bothers me a little is melee speed since a lot of weapons simply do not benefit from it. But anyway, most of the notes I made are still valid since a lot of sets have equal damage/crit

EDIT: added these changes, still not perfect, but I think should be good
also my mistake, after I wrote it, I realized it does sound like you're getting 115% crit chance or whatever, it's just +15%, sorry
 

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Bestiary Feedback

#1
Some entities are missing relevant filters:

– Golden critters should be filtered under "Rare Creature", and so should the Truffle Worm and Prismatic Lacewing, as all can be detected by the Lifeform Analyzer. Fairies could also be included, as they are also detected by the Lifeform Analyzer.
– Lavaflies are not sorted under "Nighttime", despite only spawning in the Underworld while it is night. (Source)
– For some reason, basic Antlions are only categorized as Underground Desert enemies, despite also spawning on the surface.

#2
A number of rarity star ratings are inaccurate. Here are my suggestions:

NPCs
– Zoologist: 5 -> 2 [Five doesn't reflect that you can get her relatively early]
– Dryad: 3 -> 2 [To match Witch Doctor and Clothier, who also appear after defeating bosses]
– Tavernkeep: 2 -> 3 [To reflect that you have to find them after defeating a boss]
– Mechanic: 2 -> 3 [To reflect that you have to find them after defeating a boss]
– Pirate: 2 -> 3 [To match Steampunker, as both NPCs have similar requirements]

Critters
– Truffle Worm: 1 -> 3 [Better reflects its actual rarity, and matches Prismatic Lacewing]

#4
As I have previously mentioned, Spiked Slimes and Pirates' Curses should be added to the Bestiary (the former being tied to King Slime's defeat).

#5
All bosses' servants should automatically be added when their respective boss is defeated, to avoid tedium.

#6
The numbering and ordering of enemies is currently quite chaotic. A few specific examples:

– Pre-Hardmode enemies and Hardmode enemies are freely mixed in each section, without any sense of progression.
– The giant Antlion variations are numbered before the smaller variations, with gaps of many enemies in between.
– Martian Saucer appears before Eye of Cthulhu under "Boss Enemies", in the first slot, when it should be before either Duke Fishron or Lunatic Cultist (reflecting its post-Golem place in the progression). Alternatively, it could be removed from boss sorting and placed earlier, with the other Martian Madness enemies.

#7
In the filter menu, Martian Madness should be placed after Eclipse, Pumpkin Moon, and Frost Moon, which better reflects its place in the progression. Party could also be placed with the holiday events, between "Frost Moon" and "Halloween".

#8
A Slime Rain filter would be an excellent addition (applying to Green/Blue/Purple Slime, Pinky, and King Slime). Similarly, a Meteor Shower filter for Enchanted Nightcrawlers would be excellent (similar to how the Party filter exists for hat-wearing Bunnies).

#9
The Blizzard filter is present on the Ice Golem enemy, but is not present in the menu. This should be rectified, and would be particularly important if the Blizzard event is changed to exclude regular Rain enemies and have Ice biome enemies spawn on the surface (as I have previously suggested).

#10
Some enemies, such as Nymphs and other enemies from the rare creatures list, should require less than 50 kills to fill out their information.
 
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Skimmed through this so I hope I'm not repeating something already mentioned but:

Corruption/Crimson Fishing Rod: 20%/22% fishing power, only requires EoC being beat

Scarab/Fiberglass Fishing Rod: 25%/27% fishing power, rng obtainable

Sitting Duck's Fishing Pole: 40% fishing power, costs 35 gold, traveling merchant RNG

Golden Fishing Rod: 50% fishing power, guaranteed after 30 quests

Mechanic's Rod: 30% fishing power, costs 20 gold, locked behind a moon cycle, locked behind skeletron being beat, locked behind hardmode

Is it really necessary for Mechanic's Rod to be locked behind hardmode?
 
Is it really necessary for Mechanic's Rod to be locked behind hardmode?

In a similar vein, the Hotline fishing rod (which also needs a name change) is still locked behind Hardmode... but now you can get the Lavaproof Fishing Hook before Hardmode, which pretty much moots it. It would be better balance if they were swapped -- before Hardmode you get the Hotline Rod with suboptimal power (or Hellbait, ditto), after Hardmode you get to equip the lavaproof hook and use your Golden Rod with Master Bait.
 
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In a similar vein, the Hotline fishing rod (which also needs a name change) is still locked behind Hardmode... but now you can get the Lavaproof Fishing Hook before Hardmode, which pretty much moots it. It would be better balance if they were swapped -- before Hardmode you get the Hotline Rod with suboptimal power (or Hellbait, ditto), after Hardmode you get to equip the lavaproof hook and use your Golden Rod and Master Bait.
Alternatively the power of the hotline fishing rod could be increased from 45% to 50% so it's on equal terms with the golden fishing rod, but with the added QoL bonus that you no longer need to equip the lavaproof fishing hook.
 
Alternatively the power of the hotline fishing rod could be increased from 45% to 50% so it's on equal terms with the golden fishing rod, but with the added QoL bonus that you no longer need to equip the lavaproof fishing hook.

If you do that, then there's no point in the Golden Fishing Rod at all.
 
If you do that, then there's no point in the Golden Fishing Rod at all.
Well, then the Golden Rod would be the pre-Hardmode intermediary, and the Hotline would become the upgraded version. But I'm not wild about that idea, if you're getting a Golden Fishing Rod, that should be the pinnacle. In general, I note that beyond the metals nerf, they haven't done much with giving Hardmode crates their own special loot.
 
If you do that, then there's no point in the Golden Fishing Rod at all.
The point would be in consistent and rather "quick" obtain method. You get Golden Fishing Rod after 30 quests, while Hotline Fishing Hook only has considerate chance (63%) after 100 quests total (25 to even have a chance to get it in first place). Plus, you still won't be able to get Hotline before Hardmode in that specific suggestion.

But, oh well, personally I'd prefer Golden one to remain the peak raw performance (with other rods being less powerful but with QoL), and just move Hotline a bit earlier in progression while putting Lavaproof Hook later, just as it was mentioned:

In a similar vein, the Hotline fishing rod (which also needs a name change) is still locked behind Hardmode... but now you can get the Lavaproof Fishing Hook before Hardmode, which pretty much moots it. It would be better balance if they were swapped -- before Hardmode you get the Hotline Rod with suboptimal power (or Hellbait, ditto), after Hardmode you get to equip the lavaproof hook and use your Golden Rod with Master Bait.
 
Speaking of Mechanic's Rod...

A fun gimmick came to mind: the rod will remain as complex to get, as ineffective fishing power-wise, BUT it will automatically fish for you.
Giving people who aren't too fond of constant fishing a decent opt-out, with trade-offs, but nonetheless a solution.

That would make sense as the effect: it is sold by Mechanic that is quite focused on making actions more autonomous.

The effect shouldn't be too hard to implement since it's practically re-using item after certain checks/intervals (unless it will be hard to find a proper way to stop the process by manual input)

The only trouble is that such effect will be vastly overpowered in certain scenarios, so it may have to receive even bigger tradeoffs (for example, a delay on catching fish and throwing the line, to make it slower than a dedicated fisherman could fish).
 
Speaking of Mechanic's Rod...

A fun gimmick came to mind: the rod will remain as complex to get, as ineffective fishing power-wise, BUT it will automatically fish for you.
Giving people who aren't too fond of constant fishing a decent opt-out, with trade-offs, but nonetheless a solution.

That would make sense as the effect: it is sold by Mechanic that is quite focused on making actions more autonomous.

The effect shouldn't be too hard to implement since it's practically re-using item after certain checks/intervals (unless it will be hard to find a proper way to stop the process by manual input)

The only trouble is that such effect will be vastly overpowered in certain scenarios, so it may have to receive even bigger tradeoffs (for example, a delay on catching fish and throwing the line, to make it slower than a dedicated fisherman could fish).
That's quite an interesting idea. Perhaps cap your combined fishing power at a certain value, e.g. 100%, when using the mechanical rod. This way you can fish through your piles of cheap bait without it being too overpowered.
 
Speaking of Mechanic's Rod...

A fun gimmick came to mind: the rod will remain as complex to get, as ineffective fishing power-wise, BUT it will automatically fish for you.
Giving people who aren't too fond of constant fishing a decent opt-out, with trade-offs, but nonetheless a solution.

That would make sense as the effect: it is sold by Mechanic that is quite focused on making actions more autonomous.

The effect shouldn't be too hard to implement since it's practically re-using item after certain checks/intervals (unless it will be hard to find a proper way to stop the process by manual input)

The only trouble is that such effect will be vastly overpowered in certain scenarios, so it may have to receive even bigger tradeoffs (for example, a delay on catching fish and throwing the line, to make it slower than a dedicated fisherman could fish).
Hmm. Are you thinking like AFK fishing, or a placeable fishing-machine? Either could be reasonably balanced:
  1. In the former case (AFK fishing), you basically don't get to use Sonar potions to pick your catches. You might be able to defend yourself while it fished, though.
  2. The other case is trickier, because of the question of bait. It could simply work like the Cannon, where you need to stay nearby to click new bait into it (eta2: And collect catches!). Alternatively(*) it could draw bait from a nearby chest, or store multiple bait items, but imho that could easily become OP. Regardless, it probably shouldn't get the benefit of your own buffs -- Angler Set, accessories, or potions. Just its own power, bait power, and the time//moon/weather adjustments.
* ETA: It occurs to me that putting items into or taking them out of a chest is something that is completely inaccessible to mechanisms, so maybe not that. And In general Terraria is very strict on items holding other items: There are chests and the moral equivalents (barrels, dressers), portable storage (chests with semantics ;-) ), a couple of display-frame items, and now plates can have food placed on them. So preloading it with bait might be a no-go on general principles.
 
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Hmm. Are you thinking like AFK fishing, or a placeable fishing-machine? Either could be reasonably balanced:
  1. In the former case (AFK fishing), you basically don't get to use Sonar potions to pick your catches. You might be able to defend yourself while it fished, though.
  2. The other case is trickier, because of the question of bait. It could simply work like the Cannon, where you need to stay nearby to click new bait into it (eta2: And collect catches!). Alternatively(*) it could draw bait from a nearby chest, or store multiple bait items, but imho that could easily become OP. Regardless, it probably shouldn't get the benefit of your own buffs -- Angler Set, accessories, or potions. Just its own power, bait power, and the time//moon/weather adjustments.
* ETA: It occurs to me that putting items into or taking them out of a chest is something that is completely inaccessible to mechanisms, so maybe not that. And In general Terraria is very strict on items holding other items: There are chests and the moral equivalents (barrels, dressers), portable storage (chests with semantics ;-) ), a couple of display-frame items, and now plates can have food placed on them. So preloading it with bait might be a no-go on general principles.

Definitely the first one, yes. Just holding the fishing rod like regular, but it retracts and throws a line on its' own.
Making Mechanic's Rod as a fishing-machine will raise the issue of placing several of those at once (unless hard restricted into only 1 copy per player), require additional spriting/coding for a placeable object and some fundamental reworks on how bait will be accessed.

To elaborate a bit more, the Mechanic's Rod will still require being held the whole time (just like with regular poles), practically narrowing the defense mechanisms to summons only.
With careful fishing place choice it will still allow for pretty safe process.
Another downside with buffs, aside from Sonar being obsolete, is that you will have to refresh them manually from time to time, or not use them at all, which also helps to balance AFK concept a bit, yeah.

That's quite an interesting idea. Perhaps cap your combined fishing power at a certain value, e.g. 100%, when using the mechanical rod. This way you can fish through your piles of cheap bait without it being too overpowered.

That also could be the case if required. Would reduce the chances for insanely rare drops being caught AFK, but also give lower power fishing bait a "sink hole" of sorts, which is pretty neat.
 
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