Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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i can almost guarantee someone else said this, but i'd rather say something that's already been said than read the ENTIRE thread. I think Holy Arrows need to be buffed back to the way they were before. Now its much harder to get your hands on a piercing ranged weapon. Just because Daedalus Stormbow with holy arrows was overpowered doesn't mean Wooden Bow with Holy Arrows is overpowered.
 
i can almost guarantee someone else said this, but i'd rather say something that's already been said than read the ENTIRE thread. I think Holy Arrows need to be buffed back to the way they were before. Now its much harder to get your hands on a piercing ranged weapon. Just because Daedalus Stormbow with holy arrows was overpowered doesn't mean Wooden Bow with Holy Arrows is overpowered.
The daedleus stormbow wasn't the only problem with holy arrows the issue was that it could literally triple the dps of any bow that manage to get all the arrows and stars to hit.

If you need a crowd control arrow then you should try jester's arrows, they fly in a straight line and pierce infinitely and honestly should get nerfed.

Although... the piercing iFrames on the stars somewhat limited the single target dps of the tsunami due to iFrames, now the tsunami should get about 33% more dps from holy arrows compared to in 1.3, since the stars are able to hit 4x more often.
 
i can almost guarantee someone else said this, but i'd rather say something that's already been said than read the ENTIRE thread. I think Holy Arrows need to be buffed back to the way they were before. Now its much harder to get your hands on a piercing ranged weapon. Just because Daedalus Stormbow with holy arrows was overpowered doesn't mean Wooden Bow with Holy Arrows is overpowered.
When you test it on enemies though, on multi-shot bows like Chlorophyte Shotbow, Tsunami, or Phantasm, you wouldn't notice a drop in damage. They no longer pierce, but at the same time, they're much better for single targets now that they don't trigger iFrames. It's a genius nerf to the Stormbow, but (kind of) a buff to other multi-shot bows. Also, Eventide is piercing, and doesn't trigger iFrames.
 
When you test it on enemies though, on multi-shot bows like Chlorophyte Shotbow, Tsunami, or Phantasm, you wouldn't notice a drop in damage. They no longer pierce, but at the same time, they're much better for single targets now that they don't trigger iFrames. It's a genius nerf to the Stormbow, but (kind of) a buff to other multi-shot bows. Also, Eventide is piercing, and doesn't trigger iFrames.
It's only really a buff to the tsunami (and maybye the phantasm?), the other mutlishot bows don't create stars fast enough for the extra stars to overwhelm the 50% damage nerf.
 
Leinfors, not sure if you’ve seen some of my posts elsewhere on the forums, but my major request for 1.4.1 is that the empress’ drops get buffed! The empress is harder than duke and I feel that her drops should therefore be better, but the tsunami>eventide and the razerblade typhoon>stellar tune/night glow. My favorite weapon in the whole game is the stellar tune, but I feel that it is overshadowed by the razerblade typhoon due to the fact that the razerblade does more DPS and pierces, along with dropping from an easier boss at a higher rate. The only drop that id say is good for where it is currently is the terraprisma. Please buff her drops! She deserves to have a bigger impact!
 
I feel stellar tune deserves a pretty significant buff, as it drops 2% of the time on normal and 5% on expert, which makes it a grind to get. Please make it worth the grind!
 
Let's talk about the morning star... it's... underwhelming...

It does 180 damage the highest of any whip, however it is also slower than the other whips, it has 5 tag damage and 5 tag critical.

In terms of raw offense the mourning star falls short, the dark harvest which you get soon after it can attack much faster, and compared to other plantera dungeon weapons like the sniper rifle and paladin's hammer it's a bit weak. It both does less damage and fires slower than the sniper rifle, and of course the sniper rifle has extra crit, range and ammo versitility.

But what about those tag bonuses? Well unless your minion does over 80 damage per hit the Durandel's extra 4 tag damage is better than the morning star's 5% crit. If you do get a minion the exceeds 80 damage then that means the fire cracker effectively does more damage per hit than the morning star.

You could buff it but... why do we need a whip between Durandel and Dark Harvest? How about you move it to the pre hardmode dungeons since there's effectively only 1 whip in pre hardmode since the snapthorn is both better and easier to get than the leather whip. Going from snapthorn, a pre boss whip, to fire cracker, a early hardmode whip, is the biggest gap in whip progression.

So reduce its damage to say 60 and move it to pre hardmode, none of its other attribute would need to be changed because ironicly its attack ranged is in between the snapthorn and fire cracker, and as I already mentioned its tag bonuses are worse than Durandel's.
 
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Leinfors, not sure if you’ve seen some of my posts elsewhere on the forums, but my major request for 1.4.1 is that the empress’ drops get buffed! The empress is harder than duke and I feel that her drops should therefore be better, but the tsunami>eventide and the razerblade typhoon>stellar tune/night glow. My favorite weapon in the whole game is the stellar tune, but I feel that it is overshadowed by the razerblade typhoon due to the fact that the razerblade does more DPS and pierces, along with dropping from an easier boss at a higher rate. The only drop that id say is good for where it is currently is the terraprisma. Please buff her drops! She deserves to have a bigger impact!
The reason she is so hard to beat is because you never got to learn her patterns, like you did for Duke Fishron. After lots of practice i think all of the items are perfectly fine. (in a few cases maybe even too good)
 
The reason she is so hard to beat is because you never got to learn her patterns, like you did for Duke Fishron. After lots of practice i think all of the items are perfectly fine. (in a few cases maybe even too good)
Duke has 76000 health on master while the empress has 124000, she is much faster than him, and shoots many more projectiles than him. Not to mention, you cannot even take her on until post plantera, while you can fight duke all of hardmode. You cannot say that the night glow and stellar tune aren’t worse than the razerblade typhoon. They feel just underwhelming and I feel like some damage buffs would be great as they’d give me more incentive to go after her drops. The eventide is also completely overshadowed by the tsunami too.
 
Duke has 76000 health on master while the empress has 124000, she is much faster than him, and shoots many more projectiles than him. Not to mention, you cannot even take her on until post plantera, while you can fight duke all of hardmode. You cannot say that the night glow and stellar tune aren’t worse than the razerblade typhoon. They feel just underwhelming and I feel like some damage buffs would be great as they’d give me more incentive to go after her drops. The eventide is also completely overshadowed by the tsunami too.
Maybe the tsunami and razorblade typhoon just need nerfs, they overshadow pretty much everything not just empress drops.
 
Let's talk about the morning star... it's... underwhelming...

It does 180 damage the highest of any whip, however it is also slower than the other whips, it has 5 tag damage and 5 tag critical.

In terms of raw offense the mourning star falls short, the dark harvest which you get soon after it can attack much faster, and compared to other plantera dungeon weapons like the sniper rifle and paladin's hammer it's a bit weak. It both does less damage and fires slower than the sniper rifle, and of course the sniper rifle has extra crit, range and ammo versitility.

But what about those tag bonuses? Well unless your minion does over 80 damage per hit the Durandel's extra 4 tag damage is better than the morning star's 5% crit. If you do get a minion the exceeds 80 damage then that means the fire cracker effectively does more damage per hit than the morning star.

You could buff it but... why do we need a whip between Durandel and Dark Harvest? How about you move it to the pre hardmode dungeons since there's effectively only 1 whip in pre hardmode since the snapthorn is both better and easier to get than the leather whip. Going from snapthorn, a pre boss whip, to fire cracker, a early hardmode whip, is the biggest gap in whip progression.

So reduce its damage to say 60 and move it to pre hardmode, none of its other attribute would need to be changed because ironicly its attack ranged is in between the snapthorn and fire cracker, and as I already mentioned its tag bonuses are worse than Durandel's.
I'd rather see Morning Star get a longer range than have its damage nerfed; it would even make for a better reference, since it wasn't exactly a short-ranged weapon in the source material.
 
I'd rather see Morning Star get a longer range than have its damage nerfed; it would even make for a better reference, since it wasn't exactly a short-ranged weapon in the source material.
The damage reduction was so that it could be justified moving it to prehardmode since there's a big gap in whip progression there, whereas in hardmode there are plenty of whips.
 
The damage reduction was so that it could be justified moving it to prehardmode since there's a big gap in whip progression there, whereas in hardmode there are plenty of whips.
There are plenty of whips in hardmode, but only one with the highest per-hit damage in the game; I'd rather keep that and tweak it into niche usability than fill in the prehardmode progression.
 
Maybe the tsunami and razorblade typhoon just need nerfs, they overshadow pretty much everything not just empress drops.
I mean, empress is a late game boss. She is usually defeated post golem by an average player. At that point in the game there are so many options, and where it currently stands, her drops aren’t very good compared to fragment weapons. I feel like her drops should be better than the fragment weapons or at least some of them. The stellar tune is a really cool and rare weapon that should do more damage, and same with the eventide. She’s not an easy boss by any stretch of the imagination, and the player should be rewarded with stronger loot.
 
Maybe the tsunami and razorblade typhoon just need nerfs, they overshadow pretty much everything not just empress drops.
Also, Duke is a very hard boss. I’m not saying he isn’t, and his drops reward the player perfectly in my opinion. But empress is harder, and rewards the player much less.
 
i can almost guarantee someone else said this, but i'd rather say something that's already been said than read the ENTIRE thread. I think Holy Arrows need to be buffed back to the way they were before. Now its much harder to get your hands on a piercing ranged weapon. Just because Daedalus Stormbow with holy arrows was overpowered doesn't mean Wooden Bow with Holy Arrows is overpowered.

When you really sit down and look at what Holy Arrows do, their original implementation was absolutely way too strong.

Each arrow generated 2 stars. Each star did 100% of the full weapon/arrow damage. Each star was also capable of piercing once, hitting up to 2 times.

Now, its true that under typical scenarios, the arrows wouldn't always be accurate, or the piercing frames would cause one star to miss, or that the extra pierces didn't come into play. Absolutely.

However, this meant that EVERY arrow fired with Holy Arrows was capable of doing theoretically up to 500% total damage. Against a single target, you would probably regularly doing 200%/300% damage per shot fired. On groups, or cluster-bosses like Skeletron Prime/Destroyer, you were often taking benefit from those additional pierces as well. Their base ammo damage isn't even anything to scoff at either.

What other arrows can do that? Unholy and Jester can pierce, and so multiply their damage, but only on groups. Ichor causes the debuff, and so enhances all of your attacks, but its never even a 100% DPS hike. No other single arrow is capable of dramatically multiplying single target damage like this. When you realize that all other arrows are balanced around roughly "100-110% weapon damage", with at best some piercing options, there isn't really a justification for a single early Hardmode arrow being capable of doing this sort of damage multiplication.

Now, we realize that this arrow has existed in some form since very early in Terraria's history. We couldn't justify completely squashing it. But a dramatic nerf was warranted. As it currently stands, the loss of the piercing, and the reduction of the bonus damage to 50% (instead of 100%) allows Holy Arrows to do as much as 200% weapon damage to a single target (after defense, of course). No other arrow is capable of anything like that, except for Luminite Arrows, and those are end game.

So in essence, they are still arguably the strongest arrows pre-Endgame arrows in the entire game, except for group scenarios. By a relatively substantial margin, to boot. So I don't see any reason to buff them, to say nothing of returning them to their original form.


Maybe the tsunami and razorblade typhoon just need nerfs, they overshadow pretty much everything not just empress drops.

I'll admit, I've long been on the fence about Tsunami. Its clearly one of the best Ranged weapons in the game, arguably the best for some scenarios, and that has an impact (a negative one) in my opinion for all subsequent/tier-equivalent Ranged items. After all, its not much of an upgrade if you keep using the same item.

However; I am not a ranged player, by nature. I don't have a very strong feel for the Tsunami itself and its relation to other weapons. Furthermore, while it appears to be too strong, it is not so grossly overpowered that it is ruining things.

And so, I've always been torn on whether or not it warrants a nerf, and moreso due to the fact that I am not certain exactly what the nature of such a nerf would need to be to be reasonable, and not too extreme. In the end, I've settled on letting sleeping dogs lie.

Razorblade Typhoon is getting some attention in the next update, however, a sort of buff/nerf that I hope will make it a better weapon all around.

I'd rather see Morning Star get a longer range than have its damage nerfed; it would even make for a better reference, since it wasn't exactly a short-ranged weapon in the source material.

We are looking into some range adjustments for individual Whips, and Morning Star is included in that.
 
Furthermore, while it appears to be too strong, it is not so grossly overpowered that it is ruining things.

Well, it actually is. Right now there is no objective reason to use Eventide or Aerial Bane, because while they are both incredibly good weapons, Tsunami is better in every case while also being the easier weapon to obtain. It does need to be nerfed to at least the same level as those two bows.
 
I'd definitely rather see other Ranged weapons get buffed to be capable of competing with the Tsunami, rather than the Tsunami getting nerfed. Having more viable options is better than having less. I do also agree that a lot of the Empress weapons are somewhat underwhelming, and could be buffed as well. I don't have a problem with the Duke's drops being powerful, I have a problem with the other things at a similar tier not being good enough to compete.
 
Furthermore, while it appears to be too strong, it is not so grossly overpowered that it is ruining things.
Let me put it this way, if the phantasm was removed from the game completely the tsunami would be my go too moonlord killer.

It was grossly overpowered in 1.3 and it's arguably even more overpowered now that holy arrows no longer pierce. Obviously it's worse at crowd control but that was never really its role.

The tsunami fires every 24 frames, or 1 arrow every 4.8 frames which is 12.5 arrows per second. if you use holy arrows each arrow will create 2 stars meanings you get 25 stars per second. In 1.3 when stars pierced this would cap the hit rate to 6x per sec for a single target. Although each star has its damage halved the fact that more than 4x as many stars can hit more than compensates.
The result is that you would get up to 35% more dps when attacking a single target, now the reduced damage per hit would cause enemy defense to be more impactful, however the more damage boosts you get the less enemy defense matters.

My suggestion is to make the phantasm as strong as the tsunami is right now, and then nerf the tsunami down to say 40 damage, this would make it more or less comparable to the xenopopper, which is a strong but not overpowered weapon.
 
Well, it actually is. Right now there is no objective reason to use Eventide or Aerial Bane, because while they are both incredibly good weapons, Tsunami is better in every case while also being the easier weapon to obtain. It does need to be nerfed to at least the same level as those two bows.
Eventide is pretty good, I always call it the "crowd control version" of Tsunami, and it absolutely SHREDS OOA Tier 3. But the bow you get from there, the Aerial Bane, certainly needs a buff.
 
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