Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[Mille Marteaux]

Now that I've got my hands on one, Dark Mage's Tome feels like it's in a rather strange place when compared to Honeyed Goggles.

It's movement speed is great at 41mph, but Terraspark + Magiluminescence hits 39mph and allows for more precise control over my movements.

The limited hovering is also great, but your actual height gain is extremely limited when compared to Honeyed Goggles... but I think that's fine, since Goggles are meant to be the early flight option.

The real killer for Dark Mage's Tome however, is that it falls through platforms as it begins falling. Would it be possible for this to be changed? As a Master mode item, it should be able to shine in as many situations as it can. It also changes up accessory loadouts a bit, but I see that more as build diversity than a bad thing considering it's a mid-PHM item that will be replaced once you have access to more consistent methods of flight in HM.. especially when The Black Spot is just around the corner.

 

[Leinfors]

Now that I've got my hands on one, Dark Mage's Tome feels like it's in a rather strange place when compared to Honeyed Goggles.

It's movement speed is great at 41mph, but Terraspark + Magiluminescence hits 39mph and allows for more precise control over my movements.

The limited hovering is also great, but your actual height gain is extremely limited when compared to Honeyed Goggles... but I think that's fine, since Goggles are meant to be the early flight option.

The real killer for Dark Mage's Tome however, is that it falls through platforms as it begins falling. Would it be possible for this to be changed? As a Master mode item, it should be able to shine in as many situations as it can. It also changes up accessory loadouts a bit, but I see that more as build diversity than a bad thing considering it's a mid-PHM item that will be replaced once you have access to more consistent methods of flight in HM.. especially when The Black Spot is just around the corner.

Buffs to Dark Mage's Tome would be nice but are completely out of scope for the things I'm able to work on in these follow-up adjustments.

 

[Mille Marteaux]

Understood, I didn't really know how difficult it'd be to add a check for that compared to other smaller balance tweaks, but nothing ventured nothing gained.

On an unrelated note, mostly just to justify another post here so shortly, I just want to mention that Sunfury feels really, really nice to throw into a pack of enemies during an invasion event. Trying to step back a bit from Night's Edge until the changes come in has its pros.

 

[HammerHoovy🌳]

Now that I've got my hands on one, Dark Mage's Tome feels like it's in a rather strange place when compared to Honeyed Goggles.

It's movement speed is great at 41mph, but Terraspark + Magiluminescence hits 39mph and allows for more precise control over my movements.

The limited hovering is also great, but your actual height gain is extremely limited when compared to Honeyed Goggles... but I think that's fine, since Goggles are meant to be the early flight option.

The real killer for Dark Mage's Tome however, is that it falls through platforms as it begins falling. Would it be possible for this to be changed? As a Master mode item, it should be able to shine in as many situations as it can. It also changes up accessory loadouts a bit, but I see that more as build diversity than a bad thing considering it's a mid-PHM item that will be replaced once you have access to more consistent methods of flight in HM.. especially when The Black Spot is just around the corner.

The fact that Terraspark + Magiluminescence is generally better than the mount is good though, I think. Because why would you use mobility accessories if mounts are better? But I do think that using this mount is so much worse than using mobility accessories that using it is just a horrible experience, so it could use a bit of a buff, but not a buff that makes it better than mobility accessories. The upside to using a mount that is slightly worse than mobility accessories is that it saves accessory slots.

 

[mathbrush]

I finished testing most pertinent weapons vs skeletron prime:

A MULTITUDE of early hardmode weapons tested vs Skeletron Prime (1.4.4.7)

This is a thread about testing different weapons vs Skeletron Prime. I'm posting it now to get it up here, and plan on improving it (converting more times to seconds, adding color, etc.). :brain: means that this weapon requires having defeated a mechanical boss previously. Setup: Armor used...

forums.terraria.org

Some interesting points:
Two major changes happened. First, Holy Arrows were uniformly worse than ichor arrows by a small amount. Second, Obsidian Armor was very close to Spider Armor, sometimes slightly better, sometimes slightly worse.

Those two items used to be overpoweringly strong, now they seem in line with everything else.

Night's edge is middle-of-the-pack for melee weapons and worse than almost all ranged weapons, including the shotgun, which you can buy the second hardmode starts. All hardmode yo-yos are much safer and do more damage than the Night's Edge.

Someone said earlier that guns seem stronger than bows; it seems they were right (megashark > phantom pheonix, onyx blaster/uzi > ice bow/shadowflame bow), except for ichor arrows with the Daedalus bow.

Ichor bullets were better than crystal bullets in all but one case, too.

 

[ShinyLine]

Someone said earlier that guns seem stronger than bows; it seems they were right (megashark > phantom pheonix, onyx blaster/uzi > ice bow/shadowflame bow), except for ichor arrows with the Daedalus bow.

Ichor bullets were better than crystal bullets in all but one case, too.

It was me, yeah, I'm in the middle of the tests but I had to make a pause until Thursday because I'm busy with the university.

So far, Arrows were only better than Guns against The Destroyer. (Daedalus Stormbow, Titanium Repeater, Hallowed Repeater, Phantom Phoenix and Pulse Bow, the first with Holy and Hellfire Arrows, the next three with Jester's Arrows, and the third exclusively with Cursed Arrows. All of those with & without buffs.) The Phantom Phoenix's flame proyectile shines here as expected; it's the best, period. (55 seconds on The Destroyer.)

Against The Twins & Skeletron Prime, I didn't tested Ichor Ammo, so I'll be on that. Cursed Arrows seem to surpass Holy Arrows with ease. Cursed Bullets seem to be on par with Crystal Bullets, even slightly better against something as tanky as Skeletron Prime when he spins; the Crystal Shards go all the way down to 1 damage due to those 48 points of defense.

Overall, excluding The Destroyer, Bullets are better than Arrows w/Triple Quiver. Not only from the kill times, but also on survivability; I can safely add stuff like the Worm Scarf, Cross Necklace and Obsidian Shield and make the battles even easier, instead of going full glass-cannon and be stunlocked by any of the Mechs. (Because, yeah, I died a LOT more during the Arrow Build tests than the Bullet Build ones.)

 

[Leinfors]

Hey everyone!

The following are the current follow-up changes in response to feedback for the 1.4.4 balance changes, along with a few other things that were adjusted on the way.

I'll have at least another hotfix to make adjustments-to-the-adjustments, should that be necessary, and will be paying attention to the success of some of the critical changes (the nerfs to Night's Edge and Terra Blade in particular), so will still be leaving this thread open for the near future. Thanks for all the input as always!

1.4.4.8 Changes​

​

Swords with Range Boosting Auras (Excalibur, Horseman's Blade, etc)
Swords with Range Boosting Auras (Excalibur, Horseman's Blade, etc)
- Swords with boosted range auras that hit enemies behind the player will now knock enemies away, rather than into the player

Trimarang
- Knockback increased from 3 to 4.5.
- Projectile speed and return speed (very) slightly increased. It is now faster than all of the boomerangs that go into it
- Usetime decreased from 22 to 20

Starfury
- Base damage increased from 22 to 25
- Reduce projectile damage from 2x to 1.5x (from 44 to 37)

Bee Keeper and Hive-Five
- Spawned bees can now crit based on Melee critical chance

Night's Edge
- Damage reduced from 42 to 40
- Usetime increased from 21 to 25
- Reduce pierce count from 3 to 2. As the swing actually has 2 projectiles (each of which have their own pierce counter), this is a reduction from 6 to 4 maximum possible hits per swing
- Range of the extended portion of the swing has been slightly reduced

Ice Sickle
- Projectile damage increased from 50% of base to 67%
- Pierce count on projectile increased from 3 to 4

Death Sickle
- Sickle projectiles changed to use static immune frames instead of global

Terra Blade
- Reduced the benefits from Melee Speed stat bonuses by 25%

North Pole
- Flakes that are very close to each other will now slightly push away from each other, resulting in flake spread when falling

Undertaker
- Damage reduced from 22 to 19 (partially undoing the 1.4.4 buff)

Phoenix Blaster
- Damage reduced from 33 to 30
- UseTime reduced from 17 to 14

Aqua Scepter
- Piercing count reduced from unlimited to 5, like Golden Shower

Snapthorn
- Poison duration reduced from 4 to 3 seconds
- Chance to inflict Poison reduced from 100% to 20%
- Correction: In 1.4.4, the changelog listed that Snapthorn's damage was increased from 18 to 19. This was in error. It remains at 18 damage.

Houndious Shootius
- Increased hitbox size of the projectile

Optic Staff
- Base damage increased from 21 to 24 (Spazmamini's damage is 100% of base damage)
- Retinamini's damage scaling reduced from 1.25x to 1.15x of base damage (still a slight increase due to the increased base)

Frost Hydra
- Projectiles set changed to use static immune frames instead of global

Magic Quiver
- Drop rate increased from 1/80 to 1/40

War Table (and by default, War Banners)
- Increasing drop rate and splitting its drop chance away from War Banners
- T1 Dark Mage now has a 50% chance to drop each of them independently in Classic, and a 100% to drop each in Expert+.
- T3 Dark Mage has a 1/8 chance to drop either independently in Classic, and a 1/4 chance in Expert+.

Sleeping/Sitting in Chairs
- Dramatically reduced the health regen buff when sitting or sleeping
- Sleeping and Sitting are now interrupted by taking damage

Mystic Frog
- Spawn rate increased
- No longer despawns when attempting to catch it with a net; it instead teleports to a nearby onscreen location
- Bestiary entry changed to more subtly imply how to obtain it

Remix World pre-Hardmode Mimics
- Health increased from 270 to 300
- Defense reduced from 16 to 12

Remix World King Slime Spawns
- Put a stat progression check on King Slime spawns to prevent Day 1 spawns on unprepared players. Will be identical to Slime Rain conditions from normal worlds.

 

[Snail]

No change to the ooa accessories which is a bit of a , but one change in particular

Magic Quiver
- Drop rate increased from 1/80 to 1/40

yay.

 

[Flubman]

Magic Quiver
- Drop rate increased from 1/80 to 1/40

This is a good change, but I feel like it might not be enough. A 2.5% chance from a single enemy type still isn't much, especially for an item a lot of players are going to get three of. For reference, Obsidian Rose has a 5% chance, and you only need one of those.

 

[Mille Marteaux]

This is a good change, but I feel like it might not be enough. A 2.5% chance from a single enemy type still isn't much, especially for an item a lot of players are going to get three of. For reference, Obsidian Rose has a 5% chance, and you only need one of those.

Considering how frequently Skeleton Archers can show up if you farm underground in a dedicated area (especially for Souls of Light or Rod of Discord), something like 1/40 will be very easy to come by, especially when Torch Luck starts coming into play.

 

[zkksch]

Terra Blade
- Reduced the benefits from Melee Speed stat bonuses by 25%

To be fair barely noticeable. Redid test that I did before (moon lord core kill time with projectiles only) and results only ~10-12% worse in kill time. I guess it fixes some crazy attack speed builds, never used them, so can't compare.

It still same as good (or better) as most weapons from Fishron and EoL and much better than any weapon from both moons. Yeah, technically all those events can be beaten before golem and can be considered as same stage as post-plantera solar eclipse, but I think solar eclipse not even close to those bosses/events difficulty level, and shouldn't provide same tier reward.

 

[CTNC]

Sleeping/Sitting in Chairs
- Dramatically reduced the health regen buff when sitting or sleeping
- Sleeping and Sitting are now interrupted by taking damage

Just want to point this out for the memes. Toilets count as chairs, which means...

Tera Toilet Nerf!

 

[Mille Marteaux]

results only ~10-12% worse in kill time.

12% of what base time? In a game like Terraria, even 3 seconds is a long time where a lot can go wrong.

 

[Flubman]

It appears that North Pole is still too weak. Apparently, even when used optimally, it does less damage than Influx Waver.

EDIT: Also, according to Baconfry, due to North Pole's most-recent change, the weapon no longer has a niche. He's done some tests, so he'd be the one to ask.

 

[Techdude594]

Trimarang feels quite a lot better now, great to see a fun weapon receive some love!

 

[Shyguymask]

To be fair barely noticeable. Redid test that I did before (moon lord core kill time with projectiles only) and results only ~10-12% worse in kill time. I guess it fixes some crazy attack speed builds, never used them, so can't compare.

It still same as good (or better) as most weapons from Fishron and EoL and much better than any weapon from both moons. Yeah, technically all those events can be beaten before golem and can be considered as same stage as post-plantera solar eclipse, but I think solar eclipse not even close to those bosses/events difficulty level, and shouldn't provide same tier reward.

Before the nerf even, Terra Blade wasn't as dominant as people think it was for boss fights in particular when strictly looking at damage output. Terra Beam-only on a Scale Mail glass cannon Witch broom setup killed Master Empress of Light in 35-36 seconds, meanwhile on a similar glass cannon setup Raven Staff did it in around the same time and I think without Kaleidoscope. Desert Tiger with Firecracker does it in 32 seconds at the fastest, but is less reliable and consistent. A pre-cultist Mage/Summoner hybrid build with Xeno Staff does it in under 30 seconds depending on the items used.

A hyper-aggressive (& unrealistic) True Melee + Beam Terra Blade kill gets 26 seconds. Pre-cultist Mage/Summoner hybrid gets around the same killtime when optimized with Whips and Betsy's Wrath added into the mix, while a fully dedicated & overall well executed Quadruple Whip Stacking + Betsy's Wrath + Xeno Staff setup does in a staggering 21 seconds (both used Kaleidoscope, while TM Terra used three Xeno support minions).

However the problem is that Terra Blade was FAR too easy and safe to use & optimize for how much single target DPS alone it was capable of. Sure it wasn't the absolute fastest on bosses like EoL, but other meta/S tier weapons needed to put so much more effort if not risk to outshine Terra Blade's single target output. And then there is its performance in events including lunar pillars.

Terra Blade retains its role as primarily a great crowd killer weapon, without its single target DPS outclassing the majority of the weapons in the game while being far easier & simpler than almost anything that outdamages it at the same time.

It appears that North Pole is still too weak. Apparently, even when used optimally, it does less damage than Influx Waver.

North Pole was actually broken because you could stack an avalanche of snowflakes by aiming upward and achieve ridiculous killtimes on Empress of Light and specifically, Moon Lord's deathray eye.

 

[Flubman]

North Pole was actually broken because you could stack an avalanche of snowflakes by aiming upward and achieve ridiculous killtimes on Empress of Light and specifically, Moon Lord's deathray eye.

Broken or not, it appears that this nerf went too far in the other direction. To the point where North Pole no longer has any real usefulness.

 

[Cazmatism]

I actually like it. It basically turns your swing into a much longer hitbox. The fact it moves with you actually gives you a lot of room to correct its pathing.

It can also lead to accidental misses because
a) I was never used to it in the game in the first place
b) I was forced to move in some direction to dodge enemy hits

That outweighs the room to correct pathing in my eyes

 

[zkksch]

12% of what base time? In a game like Terraria, even 3 seconds is a long time where a lot can go wrong.

~42 sec vs ~46-47, but I just compared it to transfer a bit unclear 25% melee speed bonus nerf to more reliable dps nerf format, no urge to prove anything. It should affect melee speed focused builds more, but I don't have any data for those before patch.

Before the nerf even, Terra Blade wasn't as dominant as people think it was for boss fights in particular when strictly looking at damage output. Terra Beam-only on a Scale Mail glass cannon Witch broom setup killed Master Empress of Light in 35-36 seconds, meanwhile on a similar glass cannon setup Raven Staff did it in around the same time and I think without Kaleidoscope. Desert Tiger with Firecracker does it in 32 seconds at the fastest, but is less reliable and consistent. A pre-cultist Mage/Summoner hybrid build with Xeno Staff does it in under 30 seconds depending on the items used

Melee "glass cannon" build and summoner are completely different things. Beetle armor by itself have 61 defense vs 30 of spooky one. If there is no melee combat, we cannot justify having free defense just because it's melee. So I think if you comparing weapons that way, builds should have same or close as possible amount of defense by using reforges.You didn't list the builds so I can't say for sure did you take it into account or not.

Raven staff that supposed to be obtainable later, focused on single target, and it still can't beat tb even without using true melee attacks vs one of the most convinient bosses for summoners. And you call it "wasn't as dominant as people think".
Don't know about tiger staff, never tried it, so can't say anything.
You didn't list any information for you mage/summoner, so also can't say anything beside that xeno staff is obtainable later than terrablade, but I guess you've used xeno staff with terrablade as well.

However the problem is that Terra Blade was FAR too easy and safe to use & optimize for how much single target DPS alone it was capable of. Sure it wasn't the absolute fastest on bosses like EoL, but other meta/S tier weapons needed to put so much more effort if not risk to outshine Terra Blade's single target output. And then there is its performance in events including lunar pillars.

Terra Blade retains its role as primarily a great crowd killer weapon, without its single target DPS outclassing the majority of the weapons in the game while being far easier & simpler than almost anything that outdamages it at the same time.

I'm not here for tb stats nerf, more for tier-shift. It should be at same tier as loot from fishron/EoL/OOA. I think EoL can be bonded to solar eclipse thematically, so making mothrons drop broken hero sword only if EoL is defeated will make sense. Other option is lock it behind main progression line and make cultist drop sword, tb still will be useful because it's really good vs pillars and can be used against ML if you feel that way, and also will make cultists to drop at least something interesting.

 

[Shyguymask]

Melee "glass cannon" build and summoner are completely different things. Beetle armor by itself have 61 defense vs 30 of spooky one.

Defense difference between classes does not make a large difference in survivability until you go full Warding on a Melee armor. Especially since there is numerous sources of DR and regen all over the game to ensure survivability. In general I'm not sure why you're focusing on armor and defense when we're talking about weapons and DPS? Terra Blade is also particularly reliant on stacking Melee speed accessories to reach such high, leaving less room for defensive accessories like Frozen Shield and Charm of Myths compared to most other builds.

Raven staff that supposed to be obtainable later, focused on single target, and it still can't beat tb even without using true melee attacks

Except it can though? The specific killtime I got with Raven was 34-35 seconds, one second faster than the best Terra Beam killtime I know. And with Kaleidoscope it can likely do it in under 30 seconds. Besides, Scale Mail is Post-Golem is a huge boost to Terra Blade.

You didn't list any information for you mage/summoner

This is the strongest 1.4.4 pre-cultist build I know of in term of DPS. Xeno is really really powerful, but because of the fact it's obtained late in the game and it's right next to lunar pillar weapons (Cultist is still easy), I think it's fine and barely not needing a nerf.