Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[zkksch]

Defense difference between classes does not make a large difference in survivability until you go full Warding on a Melee armor

Are you one of "if it deals 400 damage I will go with 30 armor"? All those 300-400 damage attacks are easy to dodge (or at least you supposed to know how to dodge them), usual target damage for defense is 140-180, if it's lower you don't really care, if higher you better learn that specific attack to avoid it. Even if you go beetle armor without any warding, and having only shield (ankh for example) and celestial stone from defensive accs, you'll have 61 + 4 (shield) + 4 (stone) + 4 (aegis fruit) = 73 defense +10 defense and 10% DR from buffs, with same things on summonner you wil have 31 armor less (from armor difference). So vs 140 damage it's 51 and 79 hp lost, vs 180 - 87 and 115, so it's 35% and 25% less damage taken, pretty significant boost in survivability, I would say.

In general I'm not sure why you're focusing on armor and defense when we're talking about weapons and DPS

After seeing your video it seems like you are the only one who talked about DPS and EoL speedkilling for some reason. No one (not me for sure) ever said that terrablade is must have for killing bosses in 30 seconds, so don't know why you even bring that topic answering me. Game is a bit more complex than killing boss with 30 armor so even moss hornets will be able to kill you from 2-3 hits if you will use that build outside the battle. In real playthrough there is no reason to even make such builds, you will spend much more time on farming/fishing than will save on boss battles (even with multiple tries).

With normal builds that includes defensive and mobility accs and 2-3 damage accs terrablade perfoms the same as weapons from fishron/eol/betsy. Closest weapon by mechanics (piercing + directed ranged attack) to terrablade here is eventide (with wooden arrows) and flying dragon. They both have less piercing but more single target damage, flying dragon have less convenient attack but also goes through walls, and eventide obviously have no melee attack but its ranged attack have more effective range. So they all have some differences but in total they about at the same level. So that's why I suggest to actually put terrablade into that tier instead of having it available at same stage as psycho knife and the eye of cthulhu. It's not like it even will be hardlocked if we choose EoL variant, just kill EoL and you'll have your terrablade before golem as usual.

 

[ShinyLine]

Defense difference between classes does not make a large difference in survivability until you go full Warding on a Melee armor. Especially since there is numerous sources of DR and regen all over the game to ensure survivability.

This is partly true. In battles where you know you're going to take an insane amount of hits (Wall Of Flesh, The Destroyer, Events), Defense is the thing that keeps you alive against them. Tanking WoF's lasers with Full Warding as a Summoner - the most frail Class in the game - completely gives you full control against him, and you don't have to really fear about a quick death. This becomes even more apparent against The Destroyer's lasers, because you can already stack Brain Of Confusion + Cross Necklace, again making the fight a breeze. Yeah, those items alone give you a lot of survivability, but it isn't enough to not need extra Defense for the insane amount of lasers from The Destroyer and its Probes.

These kind of glass-cannon builds only really work when you know you can dodge the enemy easily (EoL is an easy example), but when you find that kind of enemies (even adding Events like the Moons, the Lunar Event, etc), you can't really say it's better (even if it is technically better) than a tanky build when the former requires SO much more player skill just because a single error can quickly leave you dead in an instant.

Just because a Menacing Build gives you a shorter kill time doesn't automatically mean that it is actually easier. I can bet even you die a lot when testing that kind of stuff until you get the "best" attempt. (Not counting Daytime EoL because she's a joke at this point.)

 

[Shyguymask]

Are you one of "if it deals 400 damage I will go with 30 armor"?

Where did I specify huge damage attacks? I was talking in general without specifying anything, including lower-damage enemy attacks. Not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Even if you go beetle armor without any warding, and having only shield (ankh for example) and celestial stone from defensive accs, you'll have 61 + 4 (shield) + 4 (stone) + 4 (aegis fruit) = 73 defense +10 defense and 10% DR from buffs, with same things on summonner you wil have 31 armor less (from armor difference). So vs 140 damage it's 51 and 79 hp lost, vs 180 - 87 and 115, so it's 35% and 25% less damage taken, pretty significant boost in survivability, I would say.

Let's assume Master Mode.

Mourning Wood deals 240 damage at minimum, and 400 at the highest.

112 Contact damage aside, Pumpkings deal 195 damage with their blade and 360 damage with the flaming scythes projectiles.

Poltergeist deal 202 contact damage.

Headless Horsemen deal 292 contact damage.

Martian Saucer deals 180 damage at minimum, and 480 at the highest.

The rest of the Martian Invasion event deals mostly 180 or more damage while frequently inflicting a powerful DoT debuff which Defense is useless against.

Virtually every enemy in Tier 3 of OOA deals well over 200 damage, with a few even dealing 300+ damage.

Duke Fishron deals well over 200 damage with all of his attacks except sharnados in phase 1. His contact damage is at 302 on phase 2 and 277 on phase 3.
Excluding her non-dash contact damage which you practically have to ram her on purpose, her attacks all deal 180 or more damage.

And don't get me started on lunar event mobs...

Overall when it comes to what you're going to use Terra Blade on, enemies are going to deal much more damage than what you're suggesting, making the different much less impactful than what you're trying to conclude. And that's not it, there's DR. DR is calculated after defense and in general, DR reduces more damage for lower-defense builds than it does for higher-defense builds. So when using Endurance potion, Worm Scarf and/or Frozen Shield, the difference is even smaller in practice.

After seeing your video it seems like you are the only one who talked about DPS and EoL speedkilling for some reason.

We are literally talking about DPS and killtimes. You and I both. What?...

In real playthrough there is no reason to even make such builds,

I literally make such builds in my playthroughs regularly and it's not remotely difficult or time consuming like you're making it out to be. At all.

With normal builds that includes defensive and mobility accs and 2-3 damage accs terrablade perfoms the same as weapons from fishron/eol/betsy

The funny part about my Mage/Summoner hybrid build is that in that video I had two purely defensive accessories, so with full glass cannon it outshines True Melee-focused Terra Blade.

So that's why I suggest to actually put terrablade into that tier instead of having it available at same stage as psycho knife and the eye of cthulhu.

Don't know about TEoC but Psycho Knife is underpowered by itself.

 

[Flubman]

Apparently, there's a problem... According to Baconfry, Pearlwood Sword does more DPS to Destroyer than NE.

 

[zkksch]

Overall when it comes to what you're going to use Terra Blade on, enemies are going to deal much more damage than what you're suggesting, making the different much less impactful than what you're trying to conclude. And that's not it, there's DR. DR is calculated after defense and in general, DR reduces more damage for lower-defense builds than it does for higher-defense builds. So when using Endurance potion, Worm Scarf and/or Frozen Shield, the difference is even smaller in practice.

140-180 is range of most attacks that "hard to avoid", event mobs and bosses not ones who hard to avoid, you have arena for them. From all your list hard to avoid is only pumpking blade attack, but it deals 195 not that different from my numbers. Ofc there are exceptions from that assumption about effective range for calculating defense effectiveness, like giant moss hornets or jungle creepers, but from my experience most annoying enemies attacks generally in that range.

About DR affecting my calculations. I've used relative difference in damage taken as indicator of effectiveness, that number won't change because it isn't absolute value. From my example we had ~87 vs ~115 for 10% DR, if we increase DR to 50% it will 48.5 vs 64, in both cases it's the same ~25% less damage taken.

We are literally talking about DPS and killtimes. You and I both. What?...

Your sarcasm is worthless until you quote me talking about terrablade DPS (from my first post you replied to), especially vs single target. I only used dps to compare terrablade to itself before patch, because "25% less effective melee speed bonuses" doesn't say much.

If you want to compare weapons fight capabilities vs bosses at least add Betsy, Fishron, Cultist and ML fights to your tests. Because EoL fight is quite specific and benefits some weapons more because of her behavior (staying still on most attacks). Other fights have own specifics too and can benefit other weapons. And only by testing them together you can create whole picture about weapon usefulness vs bosses from that stage.

I literally make such builds in my playthroughs regularly and it's not remotely difficult or time consuming like you're making it out to be. At all.

From your build you need to defeat both moons, martians and OOA to make it. Sounds like couple hours of preparations and fights for me. Or you can just go further and kill daytime EoL with pillar weapons (if you still want to kill her). Cultist + vortex or stardust pillar much easier than optional events you've beaten to create such build and because they part of progression you'll lost no time at all. Creating and farming builds also part of fun I guess, but not for me, as hardcore player I just want to spend less time to be less upset if my character will die.

See no reason to continue that conversation at least in this thread, because you not even arguing about any of my arguments for tier-shifting terrablade (you're still comparing it with weapons from next tiers) that was main topic, and we only arguing about your speedkills and "defense importance" that has no relation to this thread at all.

 

[Dreadnautilus5000🌳]

Apparently, there's a problem... According to Baconfry, Pearlwood Sword does more DPS to Destroyer than NE

And why is this a problem? Don't forget NE is prehardmode, and that pearlwood sword has way less range and coverage so its harder to use.

 

[VenonUIO]

Flairon, Influx Waver, Sky Dragon's Fury and Flying Dragon all outperform the Terra Blade for me (both before and after the recent nerf) on bosses like Duke Fishron and Empress of Light, doing much more DPS while being just as safe. Terra Blade can come within range of their DPS if you're very close to the boss, but otherwise it just isn't nearly as good as them. I don't think the nerf was strictly necessary, but it hasn't hindered the Terra Blade's performance *too* much.

I suppose the Night's Edge nerf was coming though, as it was previously as good as early Hardmode melee weapons at close-range. The Night's Edge isn't really supposed to be viable for mobs in Hardmode, so it makes sense.

 

[zkksch]

Flairon, Influx Waver, Sky Dragon's Fury and Flying Dragon all outperform the Terra Blade for me

Can you post your build you tested/played with, wanna try it myself, because those results kinda different from what I got. Did you use beetle armor with shell?

 

[darthmorf]

Apparently, there's a problem... According to Baconfry, Pearlwood Sword does more DPS to Destroyer than NE.

While I appreciate you're trying to help spread information, please don't post second hand stuff like this. It's not very helpful to Leinfors if you're referencing some other post/video/private discussion as he won't be able to see the details. You're welcome to keep posting this second hand stuff if you also investigate it yourself and confirm the findings (with numbers ideally!) so that you can have a proper discussion about it here.

 

[Shyguymask]

140-180 is range of most attacks that "hard to avoid", event mobs and bosses not ones who hard to avoid, you have arena for them.

I genuinely can't comprehend what you're trying to say here let alone trying to point out.

From all your list hard to avoid is only pumpking blade attack, but it deals 195 not that different from my numbers. Ofc there are exceptions from that assumption about effective range for calculating defense effectiveness, like giant moss hornets or jungle creepers, but from my experience most annoying enemies attacks generally in that range.

So if we go by this frankly arrogant "Just dodge and don't get hit" mindset, then how is this helping your case? If you simply avoid getting hit by attacks, then Defense including the difference in Summoner to Melee armor survivability is irrelevant. What you fail to realize is that the stuff I listed is nearly every attack from enemies and bosses you'll be facing after obtaining Terra Blade. Nearly every enemy and their attacks at this stage deals minimum 180 or MUCH more damage on Master.

About DR affecting my calculations. I've used relative difference in damage taken as indicator of effectiveness, that number won't change because it isn't absolute value. From my example we had ~87 vs ~115 for 10% DR, if we increase DR to 50% it will 48.5 vs 64, in both cases it's the same ~25% less damage taken.

And with that much DR the damage taken is outright small, so there's no noticeable difference in survivability. And this is with your numbers that lowballs the damage numbers of post-plantera enemies onwards. As the damage numbers keep rising DR makes a vastly bigger difference while Defense makes a vastly smaller difference unless you minmax it.

There is not a large difference in survivability between Spooky/Tiki Armor to Beetle Scale Mail Armor in practice.

Your sarcasm is worthless until you quote me talking about terrablade DPS (from my first post you replied to), especially vs single target.

? ? ?

To be fair barely noticeable. Redid test that I did before (moon lord core kill time with projectiles only) and results only ~10-12% worse in kill time. I guess it fixes some crazy attack speed builds, never used them, so can't compare.

Raven staff that supposed to be obtainable later, focused on single target, and it still can't beat tb even without using true melee attacks vs one of the most convinient bosses for summoners.

~42 sec vs ~46-47, but I just compared it to transfer a bit unclear 25% melee speed bonus nerf to more reliable dps nerf format, no urge to prove anything. It should affect melee speed focused builds more, but I don't have any data for those before patch.

The topic is about Terra Blade DPS and killtimes whether you like it or not, it's been established and approached as such for a while now.

I only used dps to compare terrablade to itself before patch, because "25% less effective melee speed bonuses" doesn't say much.

Even right now you're literally admitting that the topic is about DPS and you're talking about DPS.

If you want to compare weapons fight capabilities vs bosses at least add Betsy, Fishron, Cultist and ML fights to your tests. Because EoL fight is quite specific and benefits some weapons more because of her behavior (staying still on most attacks).

EoL is the opposite of "specific" and is the best & most reliable boss in the game to DPS test on with Post-Plantera weapons. Save for very few exceptions and situations, there is not really a need to DPS test bosses other than EoL since she's one large target that's relatively easy and consistent to hit. How weapons perform against her provides a very general and accurate representation to how almost all post-plantera and later weapons perform in boss fights. Other bosses like ML and Fishron are the ones that tend to favor or disfavor certain weapons more, not EoL. You are getting this completely backwards.

From your build you need to defeat both moons, martians and OOA to make it. Sounds like couple hours of preparations and fights for me. Or you can just go further and kill daytime EoL with pillar weapons (if you still want to kill her). Cultist + vortex or stardust pillar much easier than optional events you've beaten to create such build and because they part of progression you'll lost no time at all. Creating and farming builds also part of fun I guess, but not for me, as hardcore player I just want to spend less time to be less upset if my character will die.

Yes it's true that it's easier and more "logical" to just rush Cultist after killing Golem, but that's not relevant to how difficult and practical is it to create the Mage/Summoner hybrid build I used.

See no reason to continue that conversation at least in this thread, because you not even arguing about any of my arguments for tier-shifting terrablade (you're still comparing it with weapons from next tiers) that was main topic, and we only arguing about your speedkills and "defense importance" that has no relation to this thread at all.

You're literally been arguing with me about DPS, killtime, items/setups other than Terra Blade and more for a while now. I've replied to your comment about killtimes and the topic became about killtime/DPS/comparisons as we responded to each other. But yes this is a good place to stop so that it doesn't drown out the rest of the thread too much.

 

[mathbrush]

I was kind of annoyed by the North Pole being as I thought nerfed, and saw that it had damage buffed to compensate, but still didn't feel it was enough.

I tried running tier 3 Old One's Army with just a north pole, shinobi armor, and lightning aura staff. I found that it had trouble with small targets (although it's a great way to apply venom over a large area), because if I aimed it over a wide area it missed a lot and if I aimed it over a small area it was slow to respond to changes in direction after enemies died. In the end, it was easier just to shoot the spear projectile directly at enemies, since that does more direct damage and you can mow through enemies fast anyway. For ogres and dark mages the 'rainbow' strategy was pretty good.

But I was really impressed by how well firing straight up does vs Betsy; I had expected the 'flakes spread out' to be a nerf, but she's such a big target it actually made it easier to hit her when firing straight up. Before it was 'insane damage or no damage'; now it's 'high damage pretty much constantly'. But Betsy is a special case, one of the largest bosses in the game. So I'm not sure how useful it would be, since Pumpkin Moon and Frost Moon are pretty much over once you get it, and Duke Fishron, Lunatic Cultist and Empress of Light are so mobile.

I'd love to run some tests on OOA comparing it to Christmas Tree Sword or Terra Blade, but it's hard to do good tests on main weapons when so much of the damage is done by the sentries, and varying the sentry placement makes so much of a difference.

 

[ShinyLine]

So, here it is, a full comparison between Pre-Plantera Bows & Repeaters Vs. Guns. This was done in Journey Mode, Master Difficulty, No Godmode, PC v1.4.4.5. Kill time starts and ends in the first frame the "??? has awoken!" and "??? has been defeated!" messages appear in chat, respectively.


EQUIPMENT


| Both Builds |

Spoiler

[1] Adamantite Armor

[2] Putrid Scent
[3] Ranger Emblem
[4] Loki's Wings
[5] Amphibian Boots

| Arrow Build |

Spoiler

[1] Magic Quiver
[2] Molten Quiver
[3] Stalker's Quiver

| Bullet Build |

Spoiler

[1] Worm Scarf
[2] Obsidian Shield
[3] Cross Necklace

| Notes |

Spoiler

[1] As the Bullet Build does not need three more Offensive Accessories, I can safely use Defensive ones, even being able to change them to the Shield Of Cthulhu, the Charm Of Myths, etc. I'm not adding the Shark Tooth Necklace nor the Stynger Necklace so it doesn't have an unfair advantange due to 10 points of Armor Penetration.

[2] The Bullet Build uses the Worm Scarf instead of the Brain Of Confusion so it doesn't have an unfair advantage due to the +10% Critical Strike Chance when dodging.

[3] All Accessories are reforged to Menacing.

WEAPONS AND AMMO

| | | The Twins & Skeletron Prime | | |

| Arrow Build |

Spoiler

[1] Titanium Repeater
[2] Shadowflame Bow
[3] Hallowed Repeater
[4] Chlorophyte Repeater
[5] Daedalus Stormbow
[6] Phantom Phoenix
[7] Pulse Bow

[8] Wooden Arrows
[9] Cursed Arrows
[10] Ichor Arrows
[11] Holy Arrows

| Bullet Build |

Spoiler

[1] Clockwork Assault Rifle
[2] Onyx Blaster
[3] Uzi
[4] Megashark

[5] Musket Bullets
[6] Cursed Bullets
[7] Ichor Bullets
[8] Crystal Bullets

| | | The Destroyer | | |

| Arrow Build |

Spoiler

[1] Titanium Repeater
[2] Hallowed Repeater
[3] Daedalus Stormbow
[4] Phantom Phoenix
[5] Pulse Bow

[6] Holy Arrows (Daedalus Stormbow and Phantom Phoenix)
[7] Hellfire Arrows (Daedalus Stormbow and Phantom Phoenix)

[8] Jester's Arrows (Titanium Repeater, Hallowed Repeater and Phantom Phoenix)

[9] Cursed Arrows (Pulse Bow)

| Bullet Build |

Spoiler

[1] Onyx Blaster
[2] Uzi
[3] Megashark

[4] High Velocity Bullets
[5] Explosive Bullets

| Notes |

Spoiler

[1] All Weapons are reforged to their best modifier, "Unreal", with the exception of the Clockwork Assault Rife, which has "Demonic". (Due to not having knockback, it can't have Unreal. I personally think that this should be changed.)

[2] I don't make tests with the Shadowflame Bow nor the Pulse Bow with other than Wooden and Cursed Arrows. Due to them converting all types of arrows automatically to their special Arrows, they lose all of their original special effects, and only their raw damage matters. (All Arrows at this point have less damage than Cursed Arrows, so in this case, they're obviously weaker.)

[3] I discarded the Shadowflame Bow, Chlorophyte Repeater and the Clockwork Assault Rifle against The Destroyer because they are so weak compared to the others in that battle that there's no point in testing them. The second mainly due to its accuracy to use Jester's Arrows perfectly.

POTIONS

| Both Builds (Always) |

Spoiler

[1] Honey Bottle
[2] Resistance
[3] Hunter
[4] Ironskin
[5] Night Owl
[6] Regeneration
[7] Shine
[8] Swiftness
[9] Titan (For The Destroyer's Probes)

| Arrow Build (Only for tests with maximum damage) |

Spoiler

[1] Archery
[2] Rage
[3] Wrath
[4] Golden Delight
[5] Greater Luck

| Bullet Build (Only for tests with maximum damage) |

Spoiler

[1] Rage
[2] Wrath
[3] Golden Delight
[4] Greater Luck

| Notes |

Spoiler

[1] I do separate tests with Cursed Arrows, Ichor Arrows, Holy Arrows, Hellfire Arrows, Crystal Bullets, High Velocity Bullets and Explosive Bullets so I can know their kill time with AND without Offensive Buffs.

KILL TIMES

| | | The Twins | | |

| Arrow Build |

Spoiler

[1] Titanium Repeater

Wooden Arrows: 3m 13s
Cursed Arrows: 2m 39s
Cursed Arrows + Potions: 1m 42s
Ichor Arrows: 2m 15s
Ichor Arrows + Potions: 1m 39s
Holy Arrows: 2m 12s
Holy Arrows + Potions: 1m 40s

[2] Shadowflame Bow

Wooden Arrows: 2m 51s
Cursed Arrows: 2m 26s
Cursed Arrows + Potions: 1m 28s

[3] Hallowed Repeater

Wooden Arrows: 2m 38s
Cursed Arrows: 1m 58s
Cursed Arrows + Potions: 1m 26s
Ichor Arrows: 2m
Ichor Arrows + Potions: 1m 25s
Holy Arrows: 2m 1s
Holy Arrows + Potions: 1m 35s

[4] Chlorophyte Repeater

Wooden Arrows: 1m 54s
Cursed Arrows: 1m 36s
Cursed Arrows + Potions: 56s
Ichor Arrows: 1m 19s
Ichor Arrows + Potions: 1m
Holy Arrows: 1m 23s
Holy Arrows + Potions: 55s

[5] Daedalus Stormbow

Wooden Arrows: 2m 3s
Cursed Arrows: 1m 37s
Cursed Arrows + Potions: 56s
Ichor Arrows: 1m 31s
Ichor Arrows + Potions: 57s
Holy Arrows: 1m 55s
Holy Arrows + Potions: 1m 13s

[6] Phantom Phoenix

Wooden Arrows: 2m 28s
Cursed Arrows: 2m 11s
Cursed Arrows + Potions: 1m 13s
Ichor Arrows: 1m 40s
Ichor Arrows + Potions: 1m 11s
Holy Arrows: 2m 7s
Holy Arrows + Potions: 1m 18s

[7] Pulse Bow

Wooden Arrows: 1m 28s
Cursed Arrows: 1m 24s
Cursed Arrows + Potions: 1m 4s

| Bullet Build |

Spoiler

[1] Clockwork Assault Rifle

Musket Bullets: 4m 39s
Cursed Bullets: 3m 9s
Cursed Bullets + Potions: 2m 27s
Ichor Bullets: 2m 41s
Ichor Bullets + Potions: 2m 12s
Crystal Bullets: 2m 48s
Crystal Bullets + Potions: 1m 49s

[2] Onyx Blaster

Musket Bullets: 3m 8s
Cursed Bullets: 2m 10s
Cursed Bullets + Potions: 1m 34s
Ichor Bullets: 1m 54s
Ichor Bullets + Potions: 1m 30s
Crystal Bullets: 1m 58s
Crystal Bullets + Potions: 1m 27s

[3] Uzi

Musket Bullets: 2m 33s
Cursed Bullets: 2m 7s
Cursed Bullets + Potions: 1m 34s
Ichor Bullets: 1m 57s
Ichor Bullets + Potions: 1m 33s
Crystal Bullets: 1m 36s
Crystal Bullets + Potions: 1m 16s

[4] Megashark

Musket Bullets: 2m 15s
Cursed Bullets: 1m 50s
Cursed Bullets + Potions: 1m 22s
Ichor Bullets: 1m 33s
Ichor Bullets + Potions: 1m 16s
Crystal Bullets: 1m 17s
Crystal Bullets + Potions: 1m

| | | Skeletron Prime | | |

| Arrow Build |

Spoiler

[1] Titanium Repeater

Wooden Arrows: 2m 50s
Cursed Arrows: 2m 23s
Cursed Arrows + Potions: 1m 19s
Ichor Arrows: 2m 7s
Ichor Arrows + Potions: 1m 24s
Holy Arrows: 2m 3s
Holy Arrows + Potions: 1m 34s

[2] Shadowflame Bow

Wooden Arrows: 2m 27s
Cursed Arrows: 2m 15s
Cursed Arrows + Potions: 1m 16s

[3] Hallowed Repeater

Wooden Arrows: 2m 24s
Cursed Arrows: 2m 2s
Cursed Arrows + Potions: 1m 8s
Ichor Arrows: 2m
Ichor Arrows + Potions: 1m 17s
Holy Arrows: 2m 49s
Holy Arrows + Potions: 1m 16s

[4] Chlorophyte Repeater

Wooden Arrows: 1m 48s
Cursed Arrows: 1m 37s
Cursed Arrows + Potions: 53s
Ichor Arrows: 1m 16s
Ichor Arrows + Potions: 50s
Holy Arrows: 1m 24s
Holy Arrows + Potions: 1m 5s

[5] Daedalus Stormbow

Wooden Arrows: 2m 24s
Cursed Arrows: 2m 4s
Cursed Arrows + Potions: 50s
Ichor Arrows: 1m 45s
Ichor Arrows + Potions: 58s
Holy Arrows: 2m 28s
Holy Arrows + Potions: 1m 18s

[6] Phantom Phoenix

Wooden Arrows: 2m 28s
Cursed Arrows: 1m 46s
Cursed Arrows + Potions: 1m 3s
Ichor Arrows: 1m 50s
Ichor Arrows + Potions: 1m 10s
Holy Arrows: 1m 59s
Holy Arrows + Potions: 1m 14s

[7] Pulse Bow

Wooden Arrows: 1m 12s
Cursed Arrows: 1m 9s
Cursed Arrows + Potions: 47s

| Bullet Build |

Spoiler

[1] Clockwork Assault Rifle

Musket Bullets: 4m 27s
Cursed Bullets: 2m 40s
Cursed Bullets + Potions: 2m 8s
Ichor Bullets: 2m 17s
Ichor Bullets + Potions: 1m 52s
Crystal Bullets: 3m 3s
Crystal Bullets + Potions: 2m 4s

[2] Onyx Blaster

Musket Bullets: 2m 56s
Cursed Bullets: 1m 57s
Cursed Bullets + Potions: 1m 19s
Ichor Bullets: 1m 41s
Ichor Bullets + Potions: 1m 16s
Crystal Bullets: 1m 57s
Crystal Bullets + Potions: 1m 19s

[3] Uzi

Musket Bullets: 3m 11s
Cursed Bullets: 2m 12s
Cursed Bullets + Potions: 1m 22s
Ichor Bullets: 1m 33s
Ichor Bullets + Potions: 1m 22s
Crystal Bullets: 1m 33s
Crystal Bullets + Potions: 1m 4s

[4] Megashark

Musket Bullets: 1m 53s
Cursed Bullets: 1m 36s
Cursed Bullets + Potions: 1m 6s
Ichor Bullets: 1m 22s
Ichor Bullets + Potions: 1m 3s
Crystal Bullets: 1m 15s
Crystal Bullets + Potions: 1m

| | | The Destroyer | | |

| Arrow Build |

Spoiler

[1] Titanium Repeater

Jester's Arrows: 2m 3s
Jester's Arrows + Potions: 1m 17s

[2] Hallowed Repeater

Jester's Arrows: 1m 52s
Jester's Arrows + Potions: 1m 18s

[3] Daedalus Stormbow

Holy Arrows: 2m 9s
Holy Arrows + Potions: 1m 17s
Hellfire Arrows: 1m 31s
Hellfire Arrows + Potions: 1m

[4] Phantom Phoenix

Holy Arrows: 1m 13s
Holy Arrows + Potions: 1m 4s
Hellfire Arrows: 1m 37s
Hellfire Arrows + Potions: 53s
Jester's Arrows: 1m 19s
Jester's Arrows + Potions: 55s

[5] Pulse Bow

Cursed Arrows: 1m 50s
Cursed Arrows + Potions: 52s

| Bullet Build |

Spoiler

[1] Onyx Blaster

High Velocity Bullets: 2m 37s
High Velocity Bullets + Potions: 1m 52s
Explosive Bullets: 3m 51s
Explosive Bullets + Potions: 2m 38s

[2] Uzi

High Velocity Bullets: 3m 54s
High Velocity Bullets + Potions: 2m 18s
Explosive Bullets: 3m 5s
Explosive Bullets + Potions: 1m 59s

[3] Megashark

High Velocity Bullets: 2m 44s
High Velocity Bullets + Potions: 1m 39s
Explosive Bullets: 2m 4s
Explosive Bullets + Potions: 1m 40s

| Notes |

Spoiler

[1] I used the Phantom Phoenix's flame proyectile and Jester's Arrows in a way that they could hit as many segments of The Destroyer as possible. This skyrockets their DPS a LOT, specially the flame proyectile; the other Arrows themselves don't really make much work compared to it.

[2] I died a lot more with the Arrow Build against all Mechanical Bosses than with the Bullet Build, mainly because it doesn't have the Cross Necklace nor the Obsidian Shield, as I got stun-locked a lot of times.

[3] I don't test Holy Arrows and Hellfire Arrows with the Titanium Repeater and the Hallowed Repeater, and I don't test Jester's Arrows with the Daedalus Stormbow against The Destroyer. These take so long to kill him that I'm not even completing those tests after 5+ minutes of fighting.

BEST KILL TIMES

[1] Pre-Mechanical Bosses:

| | | The Twins | | |

Spoiler

| Arrow Build |

[Daedalus Stormbow] Cursed Arrows + Potions: 56s

| Bullet Build |

[Uzi] Crystal Bullets + Potions: 1m 16s

| Best One |

[Daedalus Stormbow] Cursed Arrows + Potions: 56s

| | | Skeletron Prime | | |

Spoiler

| Arrow Build |

[Daedalus Stormbow] Cursed Arrows + Potions: 50s

| Bullet Build |

[Uzi] Crystal Bullets + Potions: 1m 4s

| Best One |

[Daedalus Stormbow] Cursed Arrows + Potions: 50s

| | | The Destroyer | | |

Spoiler

| Arrow Build |

[Daedalus Stormbow] Hellfire Arrows + Potions: 1m

| Bullet Build |

[Uzi] Explosive Bullets + Potions: 1m 59s

| Best One |

[Daedalus Stormbow] Hellfire Arrows + Potions: 1m

[2] Post-One Mechanical Boss:

| | | The Twins | | |

Spoiler

| Arrow Build |

[Daedalus Stormbow] Cursed Arrows + Potions: 56s

| Bullet Build |

[Megashark] Crystal Bullets + Potions: 1m

| Best One |

[Daedalus Stormbow] Cursed Arrows + Potions: 56s

| | | Skeletron Prime | | |

Spoiler

| Arrow Build |

[Daedalus Stormbow] Cursed Arrows + Potions: 50s

| Bullet Build |

[Megashark] Crystal Bullets + Potions: 1m

| Best One |

[Daedalus Stormbow] Cursed Arrows + Potions: 50s

| | | The Destroyer | | |

Spoiler

| Arrow Build |

[Phantom Phoenix] Hellfire Arrows + Potions: 53s

| Bullet Build |

[Megashark] High Velocity Bullets + Potions: 1m 39s

| Best One |

[Phantom Phoenix] Hellfire Arrows + Potions: 53s

[3] Pre-Plantera:

| | | The Twins | | |

Spoiler

| Arrow Build |

[Chlorophyte Repeater] Holy Arrows + Potions: 55s

| Bullet Build |

[Megashark] Crystal Bullets + Potions: 1m

| Best One |

[Chlorophyte Repeater] Holy Arrows + Potions: 55s

| | | Skeletron Prime | | |

Spoiler

| Arrow Build |

[Pulse Bow] Cursed Arrows + Potions: 47s

| Bullet Build |

[Megashark] Crystal Bullets + Potions: 1m

| Best One(s) |

[Pulse Bow] Cursed Arrows + Potions: 47s

| | | The Destroyer | | |

Spoiler

| Arrow Build |

[Pulse Bow] Cursed Arrows + Potions: 52s

| Bullet Build |

[Megashark] High Velocity Bullets + Potions: 1m 39s

| Best One |

[Pulse Bow] Cursed Arrows + Potions: 52s

| Final Notes |

Spoiler

[1] The Daedalus Stormbow is extremely dominant, only falling down to the Pulse Bow against Skeletron Prime & The Destroyer and even being ON PAR with the Chlorophyte Repeater, despite getting it far earlier. I suggest a BIG nerf on this thing, atleast to the point it doesn't surpass the Phantom Phoenix, because there isn't a big enough reason to swap the Daedalus Stormbow at all, and it isn't really hard to get in the first place. It is even safer to use than the Phantom Phoenix against The Destroyer, even if the latter can surpass it in kill time.

[2] Again, the Arrow Build is a lot more risky, and without counting the overpowered Daedalus Stormbow, it only allows to be on par or slightly above the Bullet Build (only true for the Daedalus Stormbow, Chloropyte Repeater and Pulse Bow), which isn't what someone would expect when stacking three Magic Quivers. It just isn't enough when the Bullet Build is insanely more safe to use, which is why I suggest a buff to the Magic Quivers themselves.

[3] Even though the Uzi seems better than the Onyx Blaster, one should consider how difficult the Uzi is to get in the first place. This also applies to the Pulse Bow. (Btw, the Pulse Bow is incredible for the Old One's Army, even in Tier 3.)

 

[Flubman]

Balloon Pufferfish can be shimmered into Shiny Red Balloon but not vice versa. I think making vice versa possible would be nice.

 

[Mille Marteaux]

Balloon Pufferfish is infinitely renewable at any area with enough Fishing power compared to randomly rolling on Sky Crates, and both it and Pigron Balloon are sadly dead end accessories, so I think it's okay if you can't transform Red Balloon into it.

 

[Flubman]

Balloon Pufferfish is infinitely renewable at any area with enough Fishing power compared to randomly rolling on Sky Crates, and both it and Pigron Balloon are sadly dead end accessories, so I think it's okay if you can't transform Red Balloon into it.

It's a change in the same vein as making Lava Charm transmutable into Magma Stone. It's not essential, but it's nice.

 

[zkksch]

The Daedalus Stormbow is extremely dominant, only falling down to the Pulse Bow against Skeletron Prime & The Destroyer and even being ON PAR with the Chlorophyte Repeater, despite getting it far earlier. I suggest a BIG nerf on this thing, atleast to the point it doesn't surpass the Phantom Phoenix, because there isn't a big enough reason to swap the Daedalus Stormbow at all, and it isn't really hard to get in the first place. It is even safer to use than the Phantom Phoenix against The Destroyer, even if the latter can surpass it in kill time.

Daedalus Stormbow mostly useful only on surface. Obviously it should have more damage to compensate that disadvantage. It's pretty inconvinient in use, so don't know about "there isn't a big enough reason to swap", ending of the boss battle and going somewhere else is a big enough reason to swap it for me.

It's not even the best ranger option vs mechs, star cannon destroys destroyer and than you go with megashark + crystal bullets + golden shower or ichor darts/arrows, I'm pretty sure it's faster, because crystal bullets have a huge boost from using ichor, and from your tests difference between them without ichor isn't that big.

 

[ShinyLine]

Daedalus Stormbow mostly useful only on surface. Obviously it should have more damage to compensate that disadvantage. It's pretty inconvinient in use, so don't know about "there isn't a big enough reason to swap", ending of the boss battle and going somewhere else is a big enough reason to swap it for me.

I was talking more about an actual boss-killer, and every other Arrow Weapon is behind the Onyx Blaster and the Uzi at this point. Yeah, it suffers in the Underground, but nobody is going to kill the Mechs there anyways, so it doesn't reflect that weakness a lot, specially in these tests. Nothing stops you from using multiple Weapons for different stuff (Daedalus = Surface, Guns = Underground, etc), but that wasn't the point of my post.

It's not even the best ranger option vs mechs, star cannon destroys destroyer and than you go with megashark + crystal bullets + golden shower or ichor darts/arrows, I'm pretty sure it's faster, because crystal bullets have a huge boost from using ichor, and from your tests difference between them without ichor isn't that big.

These tests where specifically about Arrows Vs. Bullets, so it's obvious I didn't took into consideration the Star Cannon nor the Super Star Shooter; not only are they beyond everything in these tests (I think?), but they also aren't very viable outside of Journey Mode due to its ammo, even if ironically the tests were in Journey Mode.

Also, I was testing Crystal Bullets separately exactly because they synergize with Ichor. Probably those combined would surpass everything else against The Twins & Skeletron Prime, but that's already outside of the "casual" Build I was going for here, where you completely extract the max DPS by combining multiple stuff. Like an Hybrid Build inside a single Class. (Other examples are the Mage/Summoner Build Shyguymask was using, or even Whip Stacking.)

 

[zkksch]

I was talking more about an actual boss-killer, and every other Arrow Weapon is behind the Onyx Blaster and the Uzi at this point. Yeah, it suffers in the Underground, but nobody is going to kill the Mechs there anyways, so it doesn't reflect that weakness a lot, specially in these tests. Nothing stops you from using multiple Weapons for different stuff (Daedalus = Surface, Guns = Underground, etc), but that wasn't the point of my post.

Having daedalus as a solid option for bosses doesn't make other bows useless, because you'll use them in other situations there daedalus can't do a thing. And I doubt that a lot of players will use daedalus vs plantera or golem, because those fights supposed to be underground and you need to clear huge areas just to use it, so you will use one of those bows vs bosses anyway (for archers ofc, because on "ranger only" flamethrower sounds better for plantera, as we all know fire beats grass). So why are you even suggesting to nerf a bow if from your tests archers not quite good at that stage comparing to gunslingers without it, and that bow doesn't even overshadow any other bow because has a very specific field of usage?

These tests where specifically about Arrows Vs. Bullets, so it's obvious I didn't took into consideration the Star Cannon nor the Super Star Shooter; not only are they beyond everything in these tests (I think?), but they also aren't very viable outside of Journey Mode due to its ammo, even if ironically the tests were in Journey Mode.

I just said that, even if you're playing ranger only, there is a choice of weapons that performs better on killing mechs than daedalus stormbow. You suggested to nerf the weapon that only purpose is killing bosses/events and it's not even the best at it.

Maybe star cannon not the weapon you will use to farm unicorns, but using it on destroyer isn't unrelistic and journey mode only thing.

Also, I was testing Crystal Bullets separately exactly because they synergize with Ichor. Probably those combined would surpass everything else against The Twins & Skeletron Prime, but that's already outside of the "casual" Build I was going for here, where you completely extract the max DPS by combining multiple stuff. Like an Hybrid Build inside a single Class. (Other examples are the Mage/Summoner Build Shyguymask was using, or even Whip Stacking.)

Switching to golden shower every 10 seconds not a hard task, you don't even need to count to 10, because ichor debuff is pretty noticeable and you can say when it's over. It's very impactful on crystal bullets/holy arrows, so better to test both cases.

Here how to use ichor without any skill requirement: create small stacks of crystal bullets for 10 sec fire (let's call that number N) and ichor bullets (5-10) and place them in rotation in your inventory, and in result you will swap ammo to ichor bullets every N shots. No skill, just annoying inventory management, you can even do it in battle with autopause.

Also for your tests you gave archers 3 quivers and said "I'm not adding the Shark Tooth Necklace nor the Stynger Necklace", I guess adding both necklaces should be enough to surpass or get close to daedalus even without ichor.

 

[Flubman]

Actually, are there any more transmutation "dead ends" like Balloon Pufferfish -> Shiny Red Balloon? If so, I think they should all be made reversible.

 

[ShinyLine]

And I doubt that a lot of players will use daedalus vs plantera or golem, because those fights supposed to be underground and you need to clear huge areas just to use it, so you will use one of those bows vs bosses anyway

Uh, yeah, that's what I said, lol.

(for archers ofc, because on "ranger only" flamethrower sounds better for plantera, as we all know fire beats grass).

Yeah, Flamethrower is amazing, but yet again, I wasn't comparing Ranged Weapons outside of Arrows and Bullets. Basically all of us can agree that the Flamethrower, Star Cannon and Super Star Shooter are stronger, and only the first one is easy to farm.

So why are you even suggesting to nerf a bow if from your tests archers not quite good at that stage comparing to gunslingers, and that bow doesn't even overshadow any other bow because have very specific field of usage?

Because it DOES perform better than every other Bow/Repeater and Gun until Pre-Plantera. And that "specific field of usage" is literally used for the first FOUR Hardmode Bosses, including Queen Slime.

I just said that, even if you're playing ranger only, there is a choice of weapons that performs better on killing mechs than daedalus stormbow. You suggested to nerf the weapon that only purpose is killing bosses/events and it's not even the best at it.

To counteract such a nerf, I also suggested to buff the Magic Quivers themselves, these being the main reason I started testing all of this. This would ALSO buff the other Bows and Repeaters so they can get close to the Daedalus Stormbow at single-target.

Maybe star cannon not the weapon you will use to farm unicorns, but using it on destroyer isn't unrelistic and journey mode only thing.

How many times I'm gonna say I wasn't testing anything outside of Arrows and Bullets. Yeah, the Star Cannon is insane, that's for sure, I'm not saying it isn't, but I AM saying it's an annoying mess to farm if you want to use it against something else than The Destroyer. (Like the OOA, maybe.)

Switching to golden shower every 10 seconds not a hard task, you don't even need to count to 10, because ichor debuff is pretty noticeable and you can say when it's over. It's very impactful on crystal bullets/holy arrows, so better to test both cases.

Magic Weapon, nothing to do with the Ranger Class.

Here how to use ichor without any skill requirement: create small stacks of crystal bullets for 10 sec fire (let's call that number N) and ichor bullets (5-10) and place them in rotation in your inventory, and in result you will swap ammo to ichor bullets every N shots. No skill, just annoying inventory management, you can even do it in battle with autopause.

Even better: Put Ichor Bullets in Inventory Slot 1 (the Hotbar, not the actual Ammo Slots), put a secondary gun in Slot 2, then Slot 3 with Crystal Bullets and Slot 4 with the main Weapon. You would only be changing between Slots 2 and 4, both using Ichor and Crystal Bullets respectively.

My main problem with all of this is that I'm also considering Mobile and (specially, since I also play with them) Gamepad Controls. It's annoying, yeah, but it's the best performance for Guns.

Also for your tests you gave archers 3 quivers and said "I'm not adding the Shark Tooth Necklace nor the Stynger Necklace", I guess both necklaces should be enough to surpass or get close to daedalus even without ichor.

This was mainly to see how big of a difference there was between the three Magic Quivers and Guns, which is what I wanted to prove in the first place. Even then, the 10 Armor Penetration would only be slightly noticeable against spinning Skeletron Prime with Crystal Bullets and Crystal + Ichor Bullets, tho that's only +5 damage per shot. (And I don't think it is enough to get the Crystal Shards over 1 damage when he's spinning anyways.)

-----

I'm not doing more tests at the time, those already took me like 3 days to compare, but yeah, Crystal/Holy + Ichor is powerful, tho I only wanted to test different Ammo by themselves without mixing anything.