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Journey's End 1.4: Official Item Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
JE Forum Banner v2.png

Hello everyone!

For those of you who don't know me, I'm Leinfors, and I do QA for Terraria! One of the big focuses of this update was a pretty big rebalancing pass on many dozens of weapons, armors, and items in the game!

However, Terraria has many thousands of items, and there is only so much time to go around, and its hard for one single person to dictate the balance of so many items without bias. Some items were changed before I was quite as involved, and while I've documented them, I didn't have time to fully review them myself. I'd like to continue iterating on this process, and for that, I would like to open discussion with the community here!

So here is the plan:
Between my other duties in the following weeks, I'm going to look into followup balance changes. I have certain things that are already on my radar, but I'm interested in hearing what you guys think might need adjustment. I'll be looking for the following:
- Balance changes we've made that you think were not enough, or were too much/disagree with
- Old items that were overlooked in our changes
- New items/equipment that you feel needs adjustment

I'm really eager to hear what you guys think, and I'd like to have a dialogue about this. I'm interested in discussing the "why" of some of our changes (when they are changes I made), and I'd like to hear your thoughts about it and other feedback you'd like to share.

A couple of ground rules I should elaborate on here though.
1. I'm only one member on a team, and I don't have absolute authority. Even if I'm convinced, all of my changes need to be approved before they pass, so I can't just change what I want.
2. This is meant to be a discussion thread, and I'd like to see evidence and convincing arguments in favor of changes. If I'm not convinced, then I'm not going to advocate for changes, but I promise that I am interested in hearing it out . . . I want to make more changes!
3. Evidence and persuasive points win the day here. Number of or passion behind a complaint absent evidence or strong logic won't convince me, nor will the number of likes, etc. a post gets. If a change is correct, then making a strong case for it should be easy. :)
4. My focus is primarily items. It is very unlikely that I will be making changes to enemies/bosses. It is also very unlikely for me to be able to completely overhaul weapons in the style of the Charged Blaster Cannon or Medusa Head. We are talking stat changes here, rather than overhauls.
5. Please be respectful to other posters here, we're all here to make Terraria a better game, and the best way to have a discussion is if we all get along! :)



While we are here, for reference, here are the current up to date balance changes for 1.4!

1.4.0.2
- Ghosts should now despawn easier.
- The conditions under which Ghosts spawn is reduced substantially, having a cap on how many can spawn at once, and are unlikely to spawn during Surface Daytime if it is not a Graveyard.

1.4.0.1
(Note: 1.4.0.1 was the live release, and changes and additions are only included for posterity and for 1.3.5.3 content changes)

- Meteorites now no longer fall until after Eater of Worlds/Brain of Cthulhu have been defeated
- Killing Eater of Worlds/Brain of Cthulhu again will boost the drop rate of subsequent Meteors for the following night (instead of breaking more Orbs/Hearts)
- Meteorites can no longer be destroyed with explosives
- Pirate Captains now spawns a Ghost Pirate when they are killed
- Dunerider Boots can now be tinkered with Rocket Boots to make Spectre Boots (not much of a balance change, but kinda relevant I think!)

Note: For weapons, Use Time is how much time must pass between each attack. A lower Use Time means less time between attacks, so a faster weapon. A higher Use Time means its slower. So when a weapon's Use Time is decreased, this is a buff. If it is increased, this is a nerf. Hope that clears things up!

Moon Lord
- Moon Lord’s attack pattern has been slightly tweaked to be more consistent, as the different eyes would become desynced over time, resulting in a more random fight (which was not intended). In addition, the amount of time that his forehead eye spends open is slightly increased
- Moon Lord’s Phantasmal Death Ray will now penetrate blocks that are between it and the player
- Enemies should no longer spawn during Moon Lord’s fight, unless they spawn outside of his radius in multiplayer
- Moon Lord will now drop his loot even if you die during his death animation

Golem
- Golem attacks more aggressively the more players are present in Expert, and also slightly harder to cheese
- Golem will now enrage when out of the jungle or on the surface

Plantera
- Plantera's Tentacle Chompers now have health scaling in Expert Multiplayer

Skeletron Prime
- Expert Skeletron Prime now moves faster when spinning.

Brain of Cthulhu
- Expert Brain of Cthulhu and his Creepers now have increased knockback resistance per player present on a server, ultimately becoming immune to knockback
- Brain of Cthulhu's Creepers now have health scaling in Expert Multiplayer

Eater of Worlds
- Eater of Worlds now has more segments, even more so in Expert Mode

King Slime
- King Slime is now somewhat harder to abuse with ropes

Martian Saucer
- Martian Saucers in difficulties below Expert no longer have a phase two, and die as soon as their turrets are destroyed
- There are now less Martian Saucers per invasion, and they are less likely to chain spawn
- Martian Saucers can now shoot their death beam through blocks. However, they are slower and their beams easier to avoid.
Crimslimes
- Now inflict the Blindness debuff and drop Blindfolds

Crimson Axe
- Now inflicts the Cursed debuff

Giant Cursed Skull
- Now inflicts the Cursed debuff on contact and via projectile, and drops Nazars

Tomb Crawler
- Head Damage decreased from 16 to 14
- Body and Tail Damage decreased from 10 to 7
- Life decreased from 50 to 40
- Reduced size
- Only 1 Tomb Crawler should spawn at a time under normal circumstances

Sand Slime
- Damage increased from 10 to 15
- Life increased from 40 to 50
- Knockback multiplier decreased from 0.8 to 0.7
- Now only spawns as uncommon enemies in the Underground Desert

Flying Fish
- Money drop value increased from 90 Copper to 3 Silver
- Flying Fish are now slightly less common on Rainy Days

Clown
- Damage increased from 50 to 60
- Defense increased from 20 to 25
- Life increased from 400 to 800
- Knockback multiplier decreased from 0.4 to 0.2
- They now attack much faster
- Happy Bombs now explode when near the player
- They now throw Chattering Teeth Bombs as well

Etherian Lightning Bug
- Projectile Damage increased from 20 to 100 (Note: This was actually an accidental placeholder number. It did 1 damage to the Etherian Crystal, and was likely to do the same to most players)

Hoplite
- Decreased Javelin Damage from 48 to 36

Angry Tumbler
- Defense decreased from 10 to 6
- Health decreased from 60 to 50
- Max speed decreased from 4 to 3
- Money drop value decreased from 1.3 Silver to 1 Silver

Bone Throwing Skeletons (Expert Only)
- Projectile Damage decreased from 80 to 60

Other
- Purple, Red, Yellow, and Black Slimes now drop 1-3 extra gel each
- Man Eater type enemies can no longer be killed by mining the block they are attached to
- Umbrella Slime money drop value increased from 25 Copper to 1 Silver
- Granite Elementals can no longer fly through walls
- Beehive Bees in the Jungle will now target enemies as well as the player (not including the Queen Bee)
Ninja Set (Rework)
- Instead of throwing bonuses, each piece now gives a global 3% critical chance
- New Set bonus: 20% movement speed

Gladiator Set (Buff)
- Helmet, Breastplate, and Leggings Defense increased by 1 each

Fossil Set (Moved to Earlier Tier / Nerf)
- Fossil Helmet Defense decreased from 3 to 2
- Fossil Plate Defense decreased from 6 to 4
- Fossil Greaves Defense decreased from 4 to 2
- Each piece of the set now gives 3% Ranged critical chance
- New Set bonus: 20% chance not to consume ammo
- Now available earlier due to the change to Desert Fossil mining

Green Cap (Buff)
- Defense increased from 0 to 2

Night Vision Helmet (Buff)
- Defense increased from 2 to 4

Cactus Set (Nerf)
- Cactus Breastplate Defense decreased from 2 to 1

Forbidden Set (Rebalance)
- As a whole set, Forbidden is unchanged. However, the benefits of Forbidden Robes and Treads have been split evenly, with each now giving 40 mana and +1 Minion count

Titanium Set (Rework / Nerf)
- New Set Bonus: Titanium Barrier
- As you attack enemies, titanium shards accumulate and spin around you
- These shards deal damage to enemies at close range, and inflict knockback.
- Use them defensively to keep enemies away, or for the bold, aggressively to inflict extra damage.

Hallowed Set (Rework / Buff)
- New Set Bonus: Holy Protection
- Familiar to most users as Shadow Dodge, Hallowed has had its previously stat-based set bonus replaced with a periodic immunity to damage.
- Upon attacking an enemy, you will gain a buff. If an enemy hits you during this buff, you will gain a very brief immunity to damage.
- After this period of immunity, at least 30 seconds must pass before you can re-activate the immunity buff.

Squire Set (Nerf)
- Squire Great Helm and Greaves Defense each increased by 1
- Squire Great Helm's healing decreased by 50%

Chlorophyte Set (Melee) (Rebalance)
- Chlorophyte Mask Defense decreased from 25 to 20
- Chlorophyte set bonus now gives an additional 5% Damage Reduction if you are wearing the Chlorophyte Mask

Turtle Armor (Buff)
- Set bonus now gives 15% Damage Reduction
- Set bonus Thorns damage now does twice as much

Spectre Armor (Mask) (Buff)
- Set bonus projectiles now deal 100% of the original damage instead of 50%
- The "recovery rate" that determines how many new projectiles can be generated over time has increased from 150 to 250

Spooky Set (Buff)
- Overall Defense increased from 27 to 30, with each piece gaining 1 Defense
- Spooky Breastplate now gives +2 Minion count instead of +1
- Spooky Leggings now give 20% movement speed

Valhalla Set (Nerf)
- Total Defense of the set is increased by 4, but has been redistributed
- Valhalla Helmet Defense increased from 14 to 20
- Valhalla Breastplate Defense decreased from 30 to 24
- Valhalla Greaves Defense increased from 20 to 24
- Valhalla Breastplate's healing decreased by 50%

Nebula Armor (Nerf)
- Healing Booster effect now gives 3 HP/s instead of 5, with a maximum of 9 HP/s possible now

Solar Armor (Buff)
- Solar Helmet critical chance bonus increased from 17% to 26%
- Solar Breastplate melee damage bonus increased from 22% to 29%
- Each piece of the set now gives 1 HP/s regen
- Instead of 30% damage reduction whenever you have charges, you now have 12% damage reduction at all times, and 20% additional damage reduction while charges are active. In practice, this is roughly equivalent to the same 30% it used to give due to how the two values are multiplied.
- Recharge time between shield charges reduced by 1 second

Stardust Armor (Overhaul / Buff)
- Stardust Guardian now has a more much vigorous and aggressive attack, and he will attack automatically without prompting. All resemblance to a certain anime is purely coincidental.
Shortswords (Rework / Buff)
- Shortswords can now be used in all directions, not just forward
- Gold Shortsword damage increased from 11 to 12

Flails (Overhaul)
- Flails now have entirely new behavior, and a few different functionality modes.
- If you click and hold the mouse button, they will swing around rapidly, doing half damage, low knock back and hitting rapidly in a small circle around you.
- If you click and use them normally, you will shoot them forward similar to how they use to be used, but they will move much faster than they did before.
- Finally, if you click while it is in midair after having shot it forward, it will drop suddenly and lay on the ground, dealing half damage hits rapidly. This can be used as a stationary damaging obstacle like a Spiky Ball on enemies walking towards you.
- Some flails have had some stat tweaks to fit with this new setup, such as having slightly longer or shorter range, but generally speaking, all of them should perform better than before.

Cactus Sword (Nerf)
- Damage decreased from 9 to 8
- Use Time increased from 25 to 32
- Knockback decreased from 5 to 4.5

Trident (Buff)
- Damage increased from 11 to 14
- Knockback increased from 5 to 6
- When held, gives unrestricted movement in water

Chain Knife (Buff)
- Damage increased from 11 to 12

Enchanted Sword (Nerf)
- Damage decreased from 24 to 23
- Use Time increased from 18 to 21
- Knockback decreased from 5.25 to 4.25

Falcon Blade (Nerf)
- Damage decreased from 30 to 25
- Use Time increased from 15 to 20

Light's Bane (Buff)
- Size Scale increased from 1.1 to 1.4 (Makes it bigger)

Amazon (Nerf)
- Damage decreased from 20 to 18
- Crafting: Stingers Required increased from 2 to 12
- Crafting: Jungle Spores Required increased from 3 to 9

Beekeeper (Nerf)
- Damage decreased from 26 to 24
- Use Time increased from 20 to 22
- Knockback decreased from 5.3 to 5
- Is no longer autoswing

Muramasa (Buff)
- Damage increased from 19 to 21

Fiery Greatsword (Buff)
- Use Time decreased from 34 to 30

Breaker Blade (Buff)
- Damage increased from 39 to 43
- Use Time decreased from 30 to 29
- Gained a special mechanic where it will deal 2x damage to enemies with over 90% health

Cobalt Sword (Unchanged)
- Unchanged, but listing here intentionally to avoid confusion. We didn't forget it, Cobalt Sword's damage was previously much higher than it should have been (stronger than Palladium and about the same as Mythril), but we are using it as the new baseline which the rest of the swords are being compared to.

Palladium Sword (Buff)
- Damage increased from 41 to 45

Mythril Sword (Buff)
- Damage increased from 44 to 49

Orichalcum Sword (Buff)
- Damage increased from 47 to 50
- Use Time decreased from 26 to 25

Adamantite Sword (Buff)
- Damage increased from 50 to 56
- Use Time decreased from 27 to 26

Titanium Sword (Buff)
- Damage increased from 52 to 58
- Use Time decreased from 26 to 25

Phasesabers (All) (Buff)
- Damage increased from 41 to 42
- Use Time decreased from 25 to 20

Beam Sword (Nerf)
- Use Time increased from 15 to 20 (Does not impact Projectile cooldown)

Fetid Baghnakhs (Nerf)
- Damage decreased from 70 to 60
- Use Time increased from 7 to 8
- Only gains 25% benefit from increased melee speed stats

Anchor (Buff)
- Damage increased from 30 to 55
- Use Time decreased from 30 to 20

Format C (Buff)
- Damage increased from 29 to 35

Gradient (Buff)
- Damage increased from 34 to 44

Chik (Nerf)
- Damage decreased from 39 to 38

Amarok (Buff)
- Damage increased from 43 to 47

HelFire (Buff)
- Damage increased from 41 to 45

Excalibur (Buff)
- Damage increased from 57 to 66
- Use Time decreased from 25 to 20

Brand of the Inferno (Buff)
- Damage increased from 44 to 85

Sleepy Octopod (Buff)
- Smash attack now does 3x damage, up from 2x

Code 2 (Buff)
- Damage increased from 47 to 54

Chlorophyte Claymore (Buff)
- Damage increased from 75 to 80

True Night's Edge (Buff)
- Damage increased from 90 to 105

Psycho Knife (Rework / Buff)
Note: Functionality overhaul renders this weapon akin to an upgraded Fetid Baghnakhs. It maintains its Stealth bonus.
- Damage increased from 70 to 85
- Use Time decreased from 20 to 8
- Only gains 33% benefit from increased melee speed stats

Keybrand (Buff)
- Damage increased from 70 to 85
- Now deals up to 150% extra damage based on how injured an enemy is

Kraken (Buff)
- Damage increased from 90 to 95
- Now has a 10% critical chance

Scourge of the Corruptor (Buff)
- Average projectiles spawned from each shot increased from 2.3 to 2.66

Golem Fist (Buff)
- Damage increased from 76 to 90

Christmas Tree Sword (Rework / Buff)
- Projectile has been completely overhauled. Instead of firing one ornament, it fires several ball ornaments and a star ornament that will hover in place for a few seconds before falling to the ground.
- Is now autoswing

Daybreak ("Buff")
- Technically a bug fix, but it makes Daybreak better, fixed an issue where Daybreak would not spread its debuff if your attack killed the target in one hit. Now spreads the debuff to nearby enemies even if the attack kills the target in one hit
Bone Javelin (Moved to Earlier Tier / Nerf)
- Converted from Thrown to Ranged
- Damage decreased from 29 to 20 due to earlier tier

Bee's Knees (Nerf)
- Damage decreased from 26 to 23
- Use Time increased from 23 to 24

Handgun (Buff)
- Use Time decreased from 12 to 10

Hellwing Bow (Buff)
- Damage increased from 20 to 22
- Use Time decreased from 14 to 13
- Knockback increased from 5 to 5.5

Clockwork Assault Rifle (Nerf)
- Damage decreased from 19 to 17

All 6 Ore Repeaters (Buff)
- Use Time decreased by 1

Marrow (Buff)
- Damage increased from 40 to 50

Ice Bow (Buff)
- Damage decreased from 46 to 39
- Use Time decreased from 21 to 16
- Now auto-fires
Note: Despite the damage reduction, this will result in a stronger bow overall, albeit more defense-impacted than bows like Marrow. Change is primarily meant to introduce variation between the bows.

Daedalus Stormbow (Nerf)
- Damage decreased from 43 to 38
- When using Holy, Unholy, Hellfire or Jester arrows, shoots an average of 2.66 arrows, instead of the normal average of 3.33 arrows

Dart Pistol (Buff)
- Damage increased from 28 to 33

Dart Rifle (Buff)
- Damage increased from 52 to 62

Toxikarp (Buff)
- Use Time decreased from 14 to 10

Hallowed Repeater (Buff)
- Damage increased from 43 to 53
- Use Time decreased from 19 to 16

Flamethrower (Buff)
- Damage increased from 27 to 35
- Applies a 15% damage penalty to the next hit for each enemy a projectile pierces

Phantom Phoenix (Buff)
- Damage increased from 24x2 to 32x2
- Use Time decreased from 20 to 18
- Phoenix projectile now fires on every 3rd shot instead of every 4th

Chlorophyte Shotbow (Nerf)
- Average arrows per shot decreased from 2.7 to 2.33

Venus Magnum (Buff)
- Damage increased from 38 to 50

Grenade Launcher (Buff)
- Use Time decreased from 30 to 20

Rocket Launcher (Buff)
- Damage decreased from 50 to 45
- Does 2x damage on direct hits to a single target

Proximity Mine Launcher (Rework / Buff)
- Does 3x damage when mines are stationary, normal damage when they are still moving
- Use Time increased from 40 to 50
- Reduced the number of active mines that you can have at once

Piranha Gun (Rework / Buff)
- Now shoots 3 Piranhas, which can attack the same or different targets
- The rate at which the Piranhas can bite has been decreased slightly on an individual basis, but the total DPS the three Piranhas can do is now much higher

Pulse Bow (Buff)
- Damage increased from 65 to 85
- Use Time decreased from 22 to 20
- Damage reduction for each target hit increased from 10% to 20%

Stynger (Buff)
- Does 2x damage on direct hits to a single target (Only applies to the initial bolt, not the fragments)

Celebration (Moved to Earlier Tier / Nerf)
- Damage decreased from 65 to 25 (Note: Rocket damage is very high and is added to this. Even Rocket 1s deal 40, so the actual damage reduction is 105 to 65 even using the worst Rockets)
- Bonus Critical chance of 10% removed
- Now sold by the Party Girl after Golem

Elf Melter (Buff)
- Damage increased from 40 to 60
- Applies a 15% damage penalty to the next hit for each enemy a projectile pierces

S.D.M.G. (Buff)
- Damage increased from 77 to 85
- Chance to not consume ammo increased from 50% to 66%
Wand of Sparking (Buff)
- Increased damage from 8 to 14
- Use Time decreased from 28 to 26
- Increased On Fire! chance from 33% to 50%
- Now has a 10% critical chance

Magic Missile (Rework / Buff)
- Projectile is faster and has homing if you release it
- Has a moderate AoE damage explosion on impact
- Use Time increased from 17 to 18
- Mana Cost increased from 10 to 12

Flamelash (Rework / Buff)
- Projectile is faster and has homing if you release it
- Now pierces and can hit a second time. Has a moderate AoE damage explosion after the second hit.
- Damage decreased from 40 to 36
- Use Time increased from 20 to 30
- Mana Cost increased from 12 to 18

Staff of Frost (Buff)
- Use Time decreased from 20 to 16
- Mana cost decreased from 14 to 12

Cursed Flames (Buff)
- Damage increased from 36 to 50
- Use Time decreased from 20 to 15
- Mana cost decreased from 12 to 9
- Related: See Cursed Inferno buff

Flower of Frost (Buff)
- Damage increased from 55 to 60
- Use Time decreased from 20 to 12
- Mana cost decreased from 17 to 11
- Increased Frostburn chance from 50% to 100%

Crystal Storm (Buff)
- Damage increased from 25 to 32
- Mana cost increased from 4 to 5

Poison Staff (Rework / Buff)
Note: Previously, due to piercing immunity frames, only one projectile from each shot would hit each target, resulting in a lot of lost damage. We've implemented a system that allows ALL of the projectiles to hit a target, dramatically improving its shotgun-like functionality. However, to offset this gain, it has had to have some of its stats reduced. On the whole, this should now be a stronger weapon.
- Damage decreased from 48 to 43
- Reduced number of enemies that each projectile can hit from 4 to 3
- Each projectile will deal 25% less damage for each target it hits
- Projectiles now have a limited range

Crystal Vile Shard (Buff)
- Damage increased from 19 to 25
- The duration that the projectiles linger (and deal damage) is increased by roughly 70%

Clinger Staff (Buff)
- Height of the Clinger flames increased by 50%
- No longer has a hit limit
- Can now inflict Cursed Inferno debuff (Related: See Cursed Inferno buff)
- Can now inflict critical hits

Medusa Head (Complete Overhaul)
- Rather than being charged, this weapon is now channeled and its range substantially reduced.
- When channeled, it will be held in front of the player. If no enemies are present, it will not fire, and will consume no mana.
- When in range, it will constantly attack nearby enemies, consuming mana for each attack.
- Can hit up to 3 targets with each attack (does not consume extra mana per target)
- Damage is now set to 40
- Mana cost has been decreased from 18 to 15, however, it can now fire up to 4 times per second, increasing the speed at which it consumes mana

Sky Fracture (Nerf)
- Mana cost increased from 14 to 17

Spirit Flame (Buff)
- Use Time decreased from 30 to 22
- Mana Cost decreased from 18 to 14

Rainbow Rod (Rework / Buff)
- Projectile is faster and has homing if you release it
- Now pierces and hits up to 3 times.
- Has a moderate AoE radius on impact
- Damage decreased from 74 to 50
- Use Time increased from 18 to 25
- Mana Cost increased from 18 to 21
- Can touch tiles without exploding now.

Unholy Trident (Buff)
- Use Time decreased from 22 to 17
- Mana cost decreased from 25 to 19

Tome of Infinite Wisdom (Buff)
- Damage increased from 24 to 32
- Use Time decreased from 30 to 25

Venom Staff (Rework / Buff)
Note: Has received the same general overhaul as Poison Staff. Should be much improved in actual use, but needs stat reductions to offset this change. Give it a try before you judge!
- Damage decreased from 63 to 44
- Reduced number of enemies that each projectile can hit from 7 to 5
- Each projectile will deal 25% less damage for each target it hits
- Now has a range before projectiles die, 50% longer than Poison Staff's

Wasp Gun (Buff)
Note: The adjustments made to Wasp Gun may sound like a nerf on paper, but due to Defense effects, the loss of total hits in exchange for higher direct damage will actually result in dramatically more DPS for the Wasp Gun. Less Wasps, more damage.
- Damage increased from 21 to 31
- Use Time increased from 11 to 18
- Wasps can now bounce/pierce only 3 times instead of 4
- Wasps per Cast: Reduced to an average of 3
- Mana cost increased from 6 to 10

Nettle Burst (Buff)
- Damage increased from 28 to 35
- Mana cost increased from 10 to 12

Spectre Staff (Buff)
- Damage decreased from 72 to 65
- Each projectile can now hit up to 3 times, rather than only once
- Mana cost increased from 11 to 15

Staff of Earth (Buff)
- The actual damage this weapon does is mostly unchanged, but lists its "max speed" damage now rather than its "low speed" damage
- Now has a 20% critical chance
- Mana Cost increased from 15 to 18
- Use Time decreased from 40 to 24
- Projectile speed greatly increased, as a result, has better range and much harder to fall below the minimum threshold to maintain maximum damage

Heat Ray (Rework)
Note: There were too many "full piercing" weapons at this tier, and not enough high single target damage weapons. Heat Ray changed to avoid redundancy with Shadowbeam Staff and Staff of Earth and give the class more versatility.
- Damage increased from 55 to 80
- Use Time decreased from 16 to 10
- Can no longer pierce and hit multiple enemies

Bat Scepter (Rebalance)
- Average Bats per cast increased from 2 to 2.5
- Mana cost increased from 3 to 6

Charged Blaster Cannon (Complete Overhaul)
This weapon still charges, but it now fires constantly while charging.
- For the first second of charging, you will fire 6 single-target pellets, each dealing a base damage of 100 (up from 50)
- For the next two seconds, you will fire 3 total piercing blasts, each dealing a base damage of 250 (up from 100)
- After this, it will shoot the laser beam, which is unchanged from the original implementation
- You can also quick-fire pellets without charging. The fire rate of these pellets is much higher than the previous implementation.
- The mana cost of charging is unchanged, however, quick firing will naturally consume more mana as the fire rate has increased significantly.

Nebula Blaze (Buff)
- Use Time decreased from 15 to 12
- Mana cost decreased from 18 to 12
Immunity Frames (Buff)
Some Summons now use their own damage immunity timer system. In practice, what this means is that they will no longer interfere with the use of other weapons by maxing out the enemy's immunity frames. All affected minions are set on their own damage timer to most correctly match their pre-change DPS, but some changes are to be expected comparing 1.3.5 DPS to 1.4 DPS. In general, even if there is some minor loss or gain of DPS compared to pre-change performance, it should be worth the improvement to overall performance. Examples of minions impacted by this change:
- Slime Staff
- Spider Staff
- Pirate Staff
- Optic Staff
- Raven Staff
- Deadly Sphere Staff
- Stardust Dragon Staff
- Some of the new summons also utilize this system

Imp Staff (Buff)
- Damage decreased from 21 to 17
- Fire Rate increased dramatically

Raven Staff (Buff)
- Damage increased from 37 to 55
- Flight speed doubled

Rainbow Crystal Staff (Buff)
- Damage decreased from 150 to 80 (Keep reading :) )
- Fixed accuracy issues, improved the speed at which sparkles explode. Should easily do much more damage than before.

Other
- Summoned minions now adjust their damage dynamically based on your current equipment and damage buffs. If your Summon damage increases, or decreases, the Summons will change accordingly.
Bone Arrows (Buff)
- Now pierces one time

Chlorophyte Arrows (Rework / Buff)
- No longer pierce targets
- Projectile speed is increased
- Can now bounce several times, and will "Smart Bounce" at a nearby target if one is in range
- Post-bounce arrows only deal 66% damage

Holy Arrows (Nerf)
- Falling Stars can no longer pierce and hit a second target
- Falling Stars now do 50% of the original damage instead of 100%

Nano Bullets (Buff)
- Damage increased from 10 to 15
- Price of Nanites increased

Venom Bullets (Buff)
- Damage increased from 14 to 15
- Related: See Venom buff
- Price of Vial of Venom increased

Venom Arrows (Buff)
- Damage increased from 17 to 19
- Related: See Venom buff
- Price of Vial of Venom increased

Crystal Dart (Buff)
- Damage increased from 15 to 17

Cursed Dart (Buff)
- Damage increased from 9 to 10
- Related: See Cursed Inferno buff

Ichor Dart (Buff)
- Damage increased from 10 to 12

Other:
- Arrows and Thrown ranged weapons no longer have a chance to drop as items for reuse
Wings
Wing Balance has been heavily balanced across the entirety of the game.
With only a few exceptions, wings found at the same tier should be roughly equivalent in power to each other. Exceptions are usually wings that are notably hard or easy to get, with difficulty being a factor in determining how good they should be.
Unfortunately, its difficult to share exact stats for wings, partially because there are dozens of them that have been changed, and their stats don't easily translate to changelog numbers.
The best short summary is that over a dozen sets of wings were buffed, and that Leaf and Frozen Wings have been reduced in power, as they were too strong for their tier.
Other major notes:
- Butterfly and Bee Wings can now only drop after the Mech Bosses, but their power has been increased proportionally.
- Previously, most wings from Wall of Flesh until Golem were very similar in power, and didn't offer a lot of reason to upgrade until you were post-Golem, where the wing power spiked. The growth of these wings have now been spread out, creating a more gradual, consistent increase in wing power across the course of the game.
Other Accessories and Mounts:
- In addition to its previous Confusion effect, Brain of Confusion now gives a 1/6 chance to avoid enemy attacks. Upon avoiding an attack, you will gain a temporary buff that gives 20% critical chance for a few seconds, during which time you cannot avoid additional attacks.
- You no longer gain stacked benefits from wearing multiple Celestial Stone variants
- Titan Glove and its tinkers now give autoswing to all Melee Weapons (and Whips!)
- Shrimpy Truffle now gives its increased speed and damage bonus when in the rain.
- Basilisk Mount now has a double jump

Bat Hook (Nerf)
- Pull In Speed decreased from 16 to 13 (This is the speed at which it pulls the player to the hook)
- Shoot speed decreased from 15.5 to 13.5 (This is the speed at which the hook moves when firing it)

Thorn Hook (Buff)
- Pull In speed increased from 11 to 12
- Shoot speed increased from 15 to 16

Lunar Hook (Buff)
- Pull In Speed increased from 13 to 16
- Shoot speed increased from 16 to 18
- All axes, hamaxes, chainsaws and other tools with axe-functionality have their wood cutting speed increased by 20%
- All drills and chainsaws now dig faster than their non-mechanical counterparts, but have shorter range. Additionally, optimized digging loadouts still perform better on pickaxes/axes, but drills and chainsaws will be faster on non-optimized loadouts
- Desert Fossil can now be mined at any pickaxe power or with bombs. However, it is fragile and adjacent fossil blocks may break when you mine it, costing you some of the ore.
- Desert Fossil based gear is now weaker because it is available sooner.
- Hellforges now require Demonite Pickaxe or higher to break. They also now protect the tiles below them from being broken while in the Underworld. This does not apply outside of the Underworld.

Cactus Pickaxe (Nerf)
Use Time decreased from 16 to 15
Damage decreased from 5 to 4

Bone Pickaxe (Buff)
Mining power increased from 50 to 55

Reaver Shark (Nerf)
Mining power decreased from 100 to 59 (No longer able to mine Hellstone)

Laser Drill (Buff / Rework)
- Range increased from 10 to 11
- Use Time decreased from 7 to 6
- No longer has axe functionality
- A substantial number of Buff Potions have had their durations increased, many as much as twice as long
- Invisibility Potion now has an added benefit of reducing enemy spawn rates and maximum spawns by 20%
- Restoration Potions no longer heal mana, but heal 10 more life for a total of 90, and induce even less Potion Sickness, now only 45 seconds
- Sharpening Station's Armor Piercing bonus has been increased from 4 to 12

Well Fed Buff (Buff)
- There are now over 50 new food and drink items in the game
- Well Fed has been divided into three different buff tiers, with the weakest being equal to the original, and the strongest being twice as strong as the original
- All Food items in the game, new and old alike, now give different tiers of Well Fed depending on how hard to get they are and how late in the game they are
- Some low tier food items can give a long duration, while some high tier food items can give a short duration
- Finding the right food for you depends on finding the right balance of tier, duration, and how easily you can obtain it
- As a bonus, Well Fed now gives a mining speed buff as well!

Cursed Inferno Debuff (Buff)
- Damage per second increased from 12 to 24 on both player and enemy versions of the debuff
- Ghoul, Clinger, and Spazmatism Cursed Inferno duration decreased somewhat to mitigate the increased danger to the player
- All other sources of this debuff are intended recipients of the improved damage

Venom Debuff (Buff)
- Damage per second increased from 12 to 30 on both player and enemy versions of the debuff
- Pygmy and Queen Spider Staff Venom duration decreased to mitigate the increased potency
- Black Recluse and Sand Poacher Venom duration decreased somewhat to mitigate the increased danger to the player
- All other sources of this debuff are intended recipients of the improved damage
- Biome Crates are now guaranteed to drop a chest item, instead of only sometimes
- Dungeon Crates will now always drop a Gold Lockbox
- Flower Boots are now included in the Jungle Crates loot pool
- Penguin and Turtle Pets can now be obtained rarely from their respective Biome crates
- Gold Crates now have a chance to drop Life Crystals and Enchanted Swords
- All fishing crates now come in pre-Wall of Flesh and post-Wall of Flesh variants. Pre-Wall of Flesh variants do not contain Hardmode Ores.
- Wood, Iron, and Gold Crates drop better quality ore depending on which level of crate it is. Wood Crates, for instance, only drop Copper/Tin/Iron/Lead.
- Bait is more likely to be consumed
- Very high fishing power now gives decreasing returns
- Fishing Power is 1.1x during Blood Moons
- Swordfish is now less common when fishing
- Golden Carp is less common when fishing
- Angler’s Quest rewards are now more likely to give you the Info Accessories. Additionally, he will not give you duplicates of an accessory you have in your inventory, unless you already have them all already
- Amber is slightly more common from Fossils, and can generate naturally in the Underground Desert
- Basic Dye materials now give 2 of that dye instead of 1 when crafting
- Blessed Apple now only drops from Unicorns, but at a higher drop rate than before
- Coin Portal chances when breaking pots has been decreased by half
- Enemies have an increased chance to drop bonus amounts of money when killed
- Enemies drop extra money during Blood Moons
- Golden Keys should now drop more often from enemies and pots, and Dungeon Slimes are slightly more common
- Gold Critters are now more rare
- Jellyfish and Granite Golems spawned from statues now drop their items even less frequently, and decreased the sell value of some of those drops
- Lava Charms can only be found in chests within the lava layer now, but Lava Fishing now provides a secondary renewable source for them
- Mandible Blade can now be dropped by Antlion Swarmers
- Moon Lord now drops Super Healing Potions instead of Greater Healing Potions
- Mushroom Grass Seed drop rate increased from 1/50 to 1/40
- Nature’s Gifts now spawn slightly more often in the Jungle
- Picksaw now has a ¼ chance to drop from Golem in addition to his other loot, instead of being part of his main drop pool. This drop rate is 33% from Expert Treasure Bags.
- Rod of Discord's drop rate in Expert mode is now 1/400
- Strange Plants no longer generate during worldgen, and will not start appearing until Hardmode
- Throwing Knives in chests now come in much larger stacks
- Water Walking Boots now have a 1/10 chance to appear in Water Chests, increased from 1/15
- Several Martian Invasion drops are now dropped from regular Martians instead of Martian Saucers, decreasing the random nature of the Martian Saucer’s drop pool
- The Nurse now charges increasing amounts of money for healing as the game progresses
- Sandstorms are now significantly less common, particularly in the early game
- Reduced the intensity of Mighty Wind, pushing you less
- Rain is slightly less common
- Dungeon Spike damage has increased from 40 to 60, and inflicts Bleeding
- Temple Wooden Spike damage has increased from 60 to 80, and inflicts Bleeding
- Gem and Rainbow Torches now give 10 torches per crafting instead of 3
- Glowsticks and Torches now stack to 999
- All Bombs, Grenades, and Dynamite now stack to 99
- Ore Bars now stack to 999
- Alchemy Seeds and Plants now stack to 999
- Tissue Samples and Shadow Scales now stack to 999
- Pirate Map and Snow Globe items can now stack to 20
- Did an extensive review of sell values across the entire game, increasing the consistency of sell values and adding sell values to many items without one
- Improved consistency of money drops from bosses
 
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Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
Hello guys!

Sorry about the delay in opening this thread up!

The forum downtime kept us from being on top of the bug reports and news post infrastructure that we had been planning on, and it pushed my timetable back. I absolutely had to get caught up on bug reports before I was able to open this up for discussion.

And I'll be honest, I may not have a ton of time this week to respond to feedback here, but I'm going to make a serious effort to swing by when I can! I REALLY want to have some discussion here and make the balance in the game better. But I have other priorities that have to come first. Hope you guys understand. :)
 

cupnewacup

Terrarian
I've been having a lot of fun so far with the update, but I did have some issues with it, so I’ll get to it.

The main thing that I take issue with is the degree of the nerf for the Reaver Shark. I understand the reasoning behind it, but as it is, it feels like the attempt to kick it down a few pegs but still keep it useful has fallen flat. To begin with, almost nobody gets their crimtane or demonite from mining; there’s too little of it, it’s much easier and faster to get it from fighting the Eye of Cthulhu or BoC/EoW, and the other ore that it can mine that the earlier pickaxes of note can’t, meteorite, is now locked behind the EoW, which, in defeating it, nets the player the resources to make a pickaxe that can also mine Hellstone.

The extent of that nerf feels like an overcorrection right now. The early progression of pickaxes isn’t just “get one pickaxe then go into Hardmode” anymore, but in the process, the choices for how players approach the game in pre-Hardmode are now more limited, and an avenue for fun has been cut off in favor of, at least it feels like, making sure the player is playing the game “properly”. For returning players, or at least myself, their knowledge feels less rewarded, because now they’re forced to beat the EoW/BoC again; that’s the only option they’ve got. Pre-nerf, that little bit of variance was a big part of its draw, in my opinion.

If it were bumped up to just be able to mine Hellstone, I think that it would bring back some of the draw that it had originally, while also meaning that the player doesn’t just skip to the end of progression for pre-Hardmode and early Hardmode, as it wouldn’t be able to mine early Hardmode ores. Course, I'm not a game designer, so take that as you will.

On the other hand, something that I think is just a matter of needing to get used to it, is the adjustment in Meteorite spawning. It also, in a sense, provides more variance for the players in pre-Hardmode, as they can choose to either go straight for the EoW/BoC or go and get this bunch of ore that provides stuff just as good as if not better than what you’d get from defeating them (whether that be through testing your patience, skill, or making them go on a detour to get an accessory that allows them to deal with that). However, it feels like it fits much more, as the Meteor armor and Space Gun are still among the best in pre-Hardmode, and smashing the orbs already nets you guns as an option.

Lastly, an item that got a bit of attention, but I think was still overlooked, the Arkhalis. It was replaced in the sword shrines with the Terragrim, and it was moved to be part of Arkhayla’s set, but it didn’t get any buffs as a result of becoming something you get in Hardmode Expert and Master difficulties. It and Terragrim are the only items of their kind, and the Arkhalis starts doing just pathetic amounts of damage even with a bunch of accessories and armor in mid-Hardmode or so, so I think that looking into adjusting its stats would be prudent.

Those are all of my thoughts for the moment, thank you and have a nice day.
 
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Rydian

Terrarian
I believe that the bar cost for pre-hardmode metal armors should be reduced.

I'm playing with two friends in a large world, two of us know a lot about the game and the third knows most of the basics. For our 1.4 playthrough we've decided to try progressing naturally. We dig and explore caves and do all the junk in the intended order so we get the most out of the game.

However we found ourselves going from Wood -> Tin -> Crimtane armor, skipping all the other metal armors. We wanted to upgrade through the other armors, but the ore/bar costs were too high to get each person a set (we pool our resources to share equipment upgrades). Tin armor costs 60 bars per set, meaning 180 bars for the three of us, meaning 540 tin ores total. With the lowest-tier ores (like tin) being the most common to find by far, that's the only one we got enough ores for before other progression things ended up happening (Eye of Cthulhu and Brain of Cthulhu).

We've spent much of our time in the dirt and upper cavern layers due to their sheer size in large worlds. We've done a lot of exploring in those two layers to pick up on stuff from chests (exciting random treasure and accessories) and hearts (progression) and whatever new shinies or mini biomes we might find.

We've definitely been mining...

As far as other metals, we have 485 iron (out of 675) and 385 silver (out of 900). We did not spend any of those on tool upgrades, though in hindsight we should have. We weren't going to make it to sets of armor anyways, and the incremental tool/weapon upgrades would have been more useful and far cheaper.

As an example...

For the cost of 1 set of silver armor (75 bars) you could make:
- 3 Silver Axes (27 bars) plus​
- 2 Silver Pickaxes (24 bars) plus​
- 2 Silver Broadswords (16 bars) plus​
- 1 Silver Bow (7 bars)​
AND have a bar leftover!

Those items could have been distributed among us and would have been far more useful than one person getting an armor upgrade. Tin armor gives 7 defense total, while silver armor gives 13 defense total. That's +6 armor (-3 damage taken), and that gap could be lessened or even completely closed with defense bonuses from accessories instead.

Ice Skates (1.2), Radar (1.3), Shoe Spikes (1.2), Inner Tube (1.4), and many more early-game accessories have been introduced since the original release, and every copy of every accessory found is another chance at a defense bonus without having to spend pre-hardmode metal.

It's clear that the costs of armors was set when they were the main way to gain more defense. Prefixes on accessories did not exist back when Terraria's original armor cost/progression was set up (prefixes came in the 1.1 expansion) and I think it's time armor costs were changed to reflect all the progression and gear changes the game has had since then.


tl;dr
I think skipping pre-hardmode metal armors is due to a combination of factors.
  1. Armors cost a disproportionately large amount of bars because they used to be the primary way of raising defense.
  2. In large worlds, the layers containing mostly weaker ores are very large and it's difficult to find a lot of other tier ores without going much deeper. It also takes longer to get around, dig through impasses, and even dig up the ores themselves due to the lack of mobility gear and low tool power in the earlier stages of the game. This means players do not gather as much early metal as they can gather later metals.
  3. Players can raise defense in other ways during the early stages, and would thus rather use the metal ores that they obtain for offensive and progression-related upgrades instead of armor.
As such, I recommend reducing the bar cost of pre-hardmode metal armors as the simplest solution.

(This is not a concern for hardmode ores because by then you can get much better movement capabilities, much of the underground you'll mine them from is already explored, and getting past dirt/stone is much faster due to having higher tool power.)
 

Heroman3003

Retinazer
I know this is an issue that is probably slightly more 'global' than just specific number changes, but I feel like differences and disparity between Corruption and Crimson accessories is extremely glaring, especially for making lategame combined accessories, with Corruption being seemingly better for Mages and Summoners and Crimson favoring Rangers and Melee. Mostly this is referring to how plainly critical Band of Starpower in creation of mage accessories, while Panic Amulet is just... kind of only useful for melee, who probably have better defensive options later on. I know its possible to create corruption world and grab it from there, but I really don't like content that just doesn't have direct alternative or way to acquire it without worldhopping, and accessories used in recipies are the biggest offender (both pre- and post-hardmode ones).
 

WatcherCCG

Terrarian
I've been having a lot of fun so far with the update, but I did have some issues with it, so I’ll get to it.

The main thing that I take issue with is the degree of the nerf for the Reaver Shark. I understand the reasoning behind it, but as it is, it feels like the attempt to kick it down a few pegs but still keep it useful has fallen flat. To begin with, almost nobody gets their crimtane or demonite from mining; there’s too little of it, it’s much easier and faster to get it from fighting the Eye of Cthulhu or BoC/EoW, and the other ore that it can mine that the earlier pickaxes of note can’t, meteorite, is now locked behind the EoW, which, in defeating it, nets the player the resources to make a pickaxe that can also mine Hellstone.

The extent of that nerf feels like an overcorrection right now. The early progression of pickaxes isn’t just “get one pickaxe then go into Hardmode” anymore, but in the process, the choices for how players approach the game in pre-Hardmode are now more limited, and an avenue for fun has been cut off in favor of, at least it feels like, making sure the player is playing the game “properly”. For returning players, or at least myself, their knowledge feels less rewarded, because now they’re forced to beat the EoW/BoC again; that’s the only option they’ve got. Pre-nerf, that little bit of variance was a big part of its draw, in my opinion.

If it were bumped up to just be able to mine Hellstone, I think that it would bring back some of the draw that it had originally, while also meaning that the player doesn’t just skip to the end of progression for pre-Hardmode and early Hardmode, as it wouldn’t be able to mine early Hardmode ores. Course, I'm not a game designer, so take that as you will.

Lastly, an item that got a bit of attention, but I think was still overlooked, the Arkhalis. It was replaced in the sword shrines with the Terragrim, and it was moved to be part of Arkhayla’s set, but it didn’t get any buffs as a result of becoming something you get in Hardmode Expert and Master difficulties. It and Terragrim are the only items of their kind, and the Arkhalis starts doing just pathetic amounts of damage even with a bunch of accessories and armor in mid-Hardmode or so, so I think that looking into adjusting its stats would be prudent.
Both of these are amazing points. I'm going to second both notions, as while the Reaver needed a nerf, it was overkill. And if you're going to put a weapon in a dev set you can only get from expert and master mode, it should do post-Mech Trio level damage, at the least.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
snip in reference to Reaver Shark
A couple of things here:
1. I do agree that there is probably some room to buff the Reaver Shark back up. But that is unlikely to take the form of mining power. My final balance phase (while tested) was only approved rather late in the development cycle, and I did not have a ton of time for multiple iterations. I'd like to look into decreasing its rarity some, and maybe making it faster. This would make it a viable, useful pickaxe that some people could fish up, and be able to use for mining softer blocks faster. I'll have to experiment with it somewhat, of course, but I have little objection to it being one of the fastest pickaxes pre-HM. Just not one that can mine Hellstone.

2. The entire reason that Reaver Shark was nerfed was because it could mine Hellstone. I do understand that it takes away some choices, but this choice was too easy. It was simply too easy to rush to the Ocean, fish up a Reaver Shark, and get the end-gear of pre-HM (as long as you can survive, which many could). In my mind, it was never about Reaver being able to mine Cobalt . . . that had far less impact, IMO, than its ability to mine Hellstone. So in that vein, I do not consider it an overcorrection, because it was a specific correction that did exactly what it was intended to (stop Hellstone sequence break). It simply offered too much progression-skipping for the amount of effort that went into it, and I don't consider fishing rarity to be a balancing factor to that.

snip in reference to the Arkhalis move
This is an interesting one, because Arkhalis is sorta meant to be a "dev item" and isn't really intended to fit into progression much. The fact that it was where it was sort of wasn't intended. That's why we made the change to it.

HOWEVER! We are probably going to buff it up, it just fell to the wayside as we pushed towards the final weeks of production. I don't know if it will ever be the "Hardmode Arkhalis" everyone ever dreamed of, but I would like to buff it enough to be be at least functional at the Mech-tier, though probably not as OP as it once was.


an extensive and well thought out post in reference to pre-HM ore bar cost
I think there is merit to what you are saying about the cost of collecting pre-HM ores and their relative value. The addition of prefixes and the inclusion of new powerful gear over the years have left them paling a little in comparison to the raw power you can gain from collecting other gear.

With that said, I'm not sure overhauling the cost of ore gear too early is something I'll be able to get approved. I think, optimistically, I might be able to bargain down the cost of Gold and Platinum gear somewhat to be less prohibitive, and if I'm really lucky, maybe a smaller reduction on Silver/Tungsten. Copper/Tin/Iron/Lead are probably unlikely to be reduced, in my opinion, especially since they are cheaper in the first place.

I'd like to explore some calculations on it when time permits, I might be able to get some good candidate proposals! Would be fun! I'm someone who ALWAYS crafts up the pre-HM tech tree because I enjoy it, but I do think Gold/Platinum take too long, and I'd like to see that reduction some.


I know this is an issue that is probably slightly more 'global' than just specific number changes, but I feel like differences and disparity between Corruption and Crimson accessories is extremely glaring, especially for making lategame combined accessories, with Corruption being seemingly better for Mages and Summoners and Crimson favoring Rangers and Melee. Mostly this is referring to how plainly critical Band of Starpower in creation of mage accessories, while Panic Amulet is just... kind of only useful for melee, who probably have better defensive options later on. I know its possible to create corruption world and grab it from there, but I really don't like content that just doesn't have direct alternative or way to acquire it without worldhopping, and accessories used in recipies are the biggest offender (both pre- and post-hardmode ones).
I'd be curious what sort of proposals you'd have for this conundrum. I will note that it is unlikely that I will be able to get new items added to the game entirely . . . I've been given permission to follow up on balance changes (with approval of my changes by Red and Cenx), but not necessarily new content additions.

With the quantity of gear existing as it does, what courses of action would you take?
 

Heroman3003

Retinazer
On a more JE-specific note, I feel like meteorite coming online only after killing EoW/BoC is a bit of overkill. I understand why it was put behind a boss kill, but I feel like requiring either EoC or Evil Biome boss (combined with at least one smashed evil orb) would have been a much better solution. That would still allow it to be used against the other boss and not come so late that Skeletron is only thing its used against before Dungeon/Underworld magic gear comes online.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
On a more JE-specific note, I feel like meteorite coming online only after killing EoW/BoC is a bit of overkill. I understand why it was put behind a boss kill, but I feel like requiring either EoC or Evil Biome boss (combined with at least one smashed evil orb) would have been a much better solution. That would still allow it to be used against the other boss and not come so late that Skeletron is only thing its used against before Dungeon/Underworld magic gear comes online.
It would be a neat idea to bring "EoC into relevance" as far as progression is concerned. However, when I posted my initial balance change list, the SINGLE piece of feedback that rung through loud and clear was that the Meteor/Space combination was far too powerful. And while I am not content to say that this has been fully resolved as is, I think this was the option that best fit the problem.

Interestingly, as someone who has been playing Terraria since day 1, I never, ever considered Meteor Armor to be a pre-EoW set. I don't know why it never really dawned on me. I always broke all three orbs in succession, and immediately fought EoW, with Meteor gear "coming after". I consider that an oversight on my part, and when I realized that people were deliberately breaking a single orb to begin farming meteor in preparation of EoW/BoC, that felt very off to me. For the time being, I've gotten a LOT of good feedback on this change, and while it is a drastic one, I am still confident it was a good one.

There's a mace that you can craft into a Fire Mace. When it hits water it extinguishes the flame which is a neat detail but I thought it'd be even cooler if it relights if it goes through a lava block.
That is a pretty cool idea . . . I might even be able to do that myself! I love work that I don't have to bother people with :) I'll go try it out now, and if its approved, we might be able to add it.

But what about Honey?! (That's a joke, I don't think we will see a Honey Flail :p )

EDIT: I just tried this out, and it definitely works. You can even make it so that the regular Mace hitting lava becomes a Flaming Mace as well! But I still need approval on the change, but its a very easy one to make. :)
 
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Heroman3003

Retinazer
I'd be curious what sort of proposals you'd have for this conundrum. I will note that it is unlikely that I will be able to get new items added to the game entirely . . . I've been given permission to follow up on balance changes (with approval of my changes by Red and Cenx), but not necessarily new content additions.

With the quantity of gear existing as it does, what courses of action would you take?
Sadly, I do not have a graceful solution to this, and I do understand that this is a problem with no best solution (not without some major-ish content additions). But to clarify, overall I find issue in specifically how biome equivalency works: For every Corrupt Melee, there is Crimson Melee, for every Corrupt Magic Weapon, there is Crimson Magic Weapon, etc. But also for every Corrupt Accessory, there is Crimson Accessory. Thing is, those two accessories, unlike weapons and tools, are simply not equivalent or substitutes and arent even necessarily specialized for same class. Being used in different recipies only makes it worse.

Best suggestion that does introduce new content would be a new NPC (or non-NPC method that works similarly), that for a fee can transmute any 'evil' item into its equivalent, and would apply to everything specific to one of evil biomes. (This would also, by extent, solve issue of requiring to go to other worlds to create even artificial alternate evil, as you'd be able to transmute seeds and simply make artificial biomes.) And would be best if it works for other world-exclusive items (ores, anyone?)

But more practical one would probably be accessories (and just those) from the biome specific sources being sold by Travelling Merchant once conditions to get the versions of your world are fulfilled (like destroying orb for Band of Starpower/Panic Amulet, or killing a Biome Mimic). Would make sense considering he could be travelling to places where opposite evil is one reigning.
 
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cupnewacup

Terrarian
A couple of things here:
1. I do agree that there is probably some room to buff the Reaver Shark back up. But that is unlikely to take the form of mining power. My final balance phase (while tested) was only approved rather late in the development cycle, and I did not have a ton of time for multiple iterations. I'd like to look into decreasing its rarity some, and maybe making it faster. This would make it a viable, useful pickaxe that some people could fish up, and be able to use for mining softer blocks faster. I'll have to experiment with it somewhat, of course, but I have little objection to it being one of the fastest pickaxes pre-HM. Just not one that can mine Hellstone.

2. The entire reason that Reaver Shark was nerfed was because it could mine Hellstone. I do understand that it takes away some choices, but this choice was too easy. It was simply too easy to rush to the Ocean, fish up a Reaver Shark, and get the end-gear of pre-HM (as long as you can survive, which many could). In my mind, it was never about Reaver being able to mine Cobalt . . . that had far less impact, IMO, than its ability to mine Hellstone. So in that vein, I do not consider it an overcorrection, because it was a specific correction that did exactly what it was intended to (stop Hellstone sequence break). It simply offered too much progression-skipping for the amount of effort that went into it, and I don't consider fishing rarity to be a balancing factor to that.
You make a good point in regards to how easy it is to get for the amount of stuff it opens up. That could theoretically be fixed by gating it behind one boss or another or making something else that's already gated behind a boss fill a similar role, I dunno, maybe the Bone Pickaxe able to mine Hellstone (since that's gated behind both Skeletron and being able to cope with the dungeon), but well, that gets into the point where I have negative confidence in my ability to suggest things, and I'm pretty sure some of those suggestions are outside the scope of this thread.

I don't personally agree that it being to mine Hellstone is that useful, as a) I never found Hellstone stuff itself that useful, but well, I'm sure that's not the majority opinion and b) once you get down into hell, you pretty much need to have strong armor anyways, or else you die. While you can sequence break and get Hellstone like that, I think that if you managed to get to the point where you can deal with the imps and the skeleton worms and the demons without having good armor, you've already earned it.

Similarly to the Hellstone, I've not really ever found the speed of mining to be something actually helpful, and instead find that to be most important in regards to axes (a bit silly, now that I think about it, since you spend a lot more time on one of these, but maybe it just stands out more to me because a player will generally spend less time doing it and so it doesn't all just meld together or something). I've not really encountered many people that care that much about it, either, but that's probably just due to my own blindspots, and it would make sense for it to be the case, so a large number of people probably do care about it. I do think that lowering the rarity would be a good move at its current level, as it's really not valuable enough to justify it right now.
This is an interesting one, because Arkhalis is sorta meant to be a "dev item" and isn't really intended to fit into progression much. The fact that it was where it was sort of wasn't intended. That's why we made the change to it.

HOWEVER! We are probably going to buff it up, it just fell to the wayside as we pushed towards the final weeks of production. I don't know if it will ever be the "Hardmode Arkhalis" everyone ever dreamed of, but I would like to buff it enough to be be at least functional at the Mech-tier, though probably not as OP as it once was.
Yeah, that makes sense. I'm not exactly expecting it to be able to carry someone through Hardmode; I just think that it needs a little more oomph.
 
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mathbrush

Terrarian
One balance issue I've noticed is that Pumpkin Moon, Frost Moon, and Duke Fishron are all quite a bit harder than the Celestial Pillars and Martian Madness, but have inferior gear. They all come around the same time (Golem is still fairly easy with setup, and they're all post-Plantera).

I guess the difference is that Martian Madness and the Celestial Pillars don't have time limits or require intense resource harvesting. It's easier to get the UFO car key and vortex beater to kill Duke Fishron than it is to get one truffle to summon him.

Weren't they all end-game material originally? But now they're mid-Hardmode. Why gather expensive resources, and wait a day between tries, to get a raven staff when the UFO staff and stardust cell staff are easier?

I don't think buffing the loot helps; Frost Moon already has great loot. But maybe:

  • Making the moon events easier to finish, or (like the Blood Moon change) having enemies drop Pumpkin Medallions or Naughty Presents to make re-summoning easier
  • Making the moon events or Duke Fishron/Empress of Light necessary for the Lunatic Cultist (not completing all the waves, just part of it)
  • Making the moon events scale over time (like Old One's Army; before defeating Golem, it could stop at Mourning Wood/Santa but let you farm them, and afterwards it could go up to Pumpking/Ice Queen).
  • Buffing Lunatic Cultist so it needs the Moon/Fishron drops
  • Making truffle worms less rare or letting you breed two of them once you have truffle worm cages
On another note, I love the UFO changes! I actually have to fight them in the open now, and its a lot more exciting, and having stage 2 gone is great.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
You make a good point in regards to how easy it is to get for the amount of stuff it opens up. That could theoretically be fixed by gating it behind one boss or another or making something else that's already gated behind a boss fill a similar role, I dunno, maybe the Bone Pickaxe able to mine Hellstone (since that's gated behind both Skeletron and being able to cope with the dungeon), but well, that gets into the point where I have negative confidence in my ability to suggest things, and I'm pretty sure some of those suggestions are outside the scope of this thread.
One of the "competing" suggestions for the Reaver Shark nerf has always been locking it behind a boss. This . . . "would work", but I dislike it from a game design perspective. Why? Because nothing communicates this to you. The Shark just "invisibly" becomes available from a rare fishing source, and no one is any the wiser. While we have a few examples of things happening like that, I don't generally prefer it. The Hardmode transition is one of the only instances of the game where things CHANGE, and people know to expect something new.

The Reaver Shark has been a staple of "skipping most of the first half of the game" for years now, and not in a good way. Despite the insistence that Hellstone isn't that useful, or that surviving the Underworld earns it, I don't think that is the case. Otherwise people wouldn't be doing it. As I said prior, I'd like to explore a Reaver Shark rebalance of some sort. But it won't involve an increase in mining power. I didn't fight for this change only to undo it. If it could mine Hellstone, it may as well have never been changed at all, and I have very strong feelings on that matter.


-discussion of post-Golem side events and their role and relevance in contrast to the Celestial Events-
As specified in the introductory post, balance adjustments to enemies and bosses is preeeetty unlikely, as my focus and permissions are primarily equipment/item based. If a specific instance stood out, it might be worth addressing, but completely overhauling PM/FM/Duke tiering and their role in the end-game far exceeds the scope of this discussion.

For what its worth, I don't necessarily agree with all of the points. Pumpkin Moon is pretty easy, at least to get the gear drops (even if you don't necessarily beat it). I have always, and continue, to consider Pumpkin Moon the easiest of the "Big 6" (PM/FM/Martians/Duke/OOATier3 and now Empress), and I generally expect its gear to more or less follow that tiering roughly. It is a stepping stool from which Frost Moon and Duke become easier.

As for Duke's gear, much of his gear is best in class, or side-grades to other gear. Tsunami and Phantasm both have valuable roles for different purposes, and Razorblade Typhoon has unprecedented crowd clearing and tracking abilities that the Nebula weapons cannot match (though Nightglow might fill the gap between the two somewhat). His wings are (or were) the best in game before Moon Lord, and that alone is worth considering.

The whole idea is that these are entirely optional events that give gear which is (generally) superior to that of what Golem alone can provide. You can use them as stepping stools, and collect some valuable tools for the Pillars/Moon Lord (Cosmic Car Key, Duke Wings, etc), or you can skip them entirely. They may become outdated rather quickly, but it will be a different experience depending on the course you take from Golem to Cultist. PM/FM especially are purely optional side events that don't necessarily fit into progression cleanly.

If I have one regret here, and one I'm not sure I will be able to resolve, its that OOA Tier 3 is PARTICULARLY hard on higher difficulties for many builds, and is probably on par with Moon Lord in some ways. And its gear is not rewarding enough for that level of difficulty. I buffed Betsy's Wings, but that was the only thing I had time to assess during my balance pass from OOAT3. I think its a bit too hard and the Betsy drops aren't really strong enough for that effort.

I'm glad you like the UFO changes . . . I've always felt they "dominated" the event in more ways than one. I'm not 100% satisfied that the end result is the best outcome, but I'm not sure that it can be changed much more without overhauling the entire invasion, which I do not have liberty to do.
 

Heroman3003

Retinazer
This one is less balance and more QoL, but for some other things I think they should be acquirable via fishing crates. Specifically items like Living Wands and Honey Dispenser that spawn in limited chest amounts in the world and may not spawn at all depending on your (un)luck, like me getting two Finch Staves and no wands from my own living trees. I can see same happening to someone with Mahogany Wands or Honey Dispenser. Those special crafting station/tools that are only used for building shouldn't be as unique as they are now. And in regards to Finch Staves, those, along with any other potetntially exclusive Living Tree loot should probably be fishable too, just like contents of surface chests.
 

Blue_M4ge

Spazmatism
I've been having a lot of fun with this update but, i have a some QoL suggestions:

  • Add a number showing the amount of hp a boss has inside the health bar, The new health bar is great but the only way to see the exact number of health a boss has left is to hover over it with the cursor which is somewhat hard to do with faster moving bosses
1589864270906.png
  • Add numbers above hp and mana when using the new health bar styles
  • Allow us to put accessories that don't show up on players to be put into vanity slots again, for some reason this is not possible any more and i personally don't see why, if anything it just makes inventory management harder since were now forced to put accessories into our inventories.
  • Allow meteorite to be destroyed by explosions again.
 
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Aurora3500

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
One balance issue I've noticed is that Pumpkin Moon, Frost Moon, and Duke Fishron are all quite a bit harder than the Celestial Pillars and Martian Madness, but have inferior gear. They all come around the same time (Golem is still fairly easy with setup, and they're all post-Plantera).
That is interesting. To me it has always felt like Duke Fishron's gear is important for me in order to even have a shot at the Frost/Pumpkin Moons and Martian Madness. In many of my playthroughs even my own personal Master Mode playthrough which I've been focusing hard on since the update came out, I end up defeating Fishron before Plantera. Before 1.3, they felt like some of the best weapons in the game, possibly because I couldn't really get deep into the Holiday Moons without them in the first place.

I'm interested in experimenting with the Empress of Light's weapons to see how they do during the other events. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of feedback to give on those right now, but given her tier, they should be very close to power in Fishron/Holiday Moon weapons. I am also interested to see if they will be Moon Lord viable.

So far the Hallowed Armor buff which used to be the Titanium armor buff has really made it incredible, perhaps even slightly overpowered. To the point where I feel I might be able to finish the rest of my Master Mode playthrough without even getting any of the Chlorophyte Armors or Beetle Armor. I think the buff is far better suited on Hallowed Armor compared to Titanium. With how Titanium is now, people won't feel the need to have it as part of their build as badly.

The Shadowflame weapons in my opinion have always felt pretty powerful. I'm honestly surprised none of them got nerfed in this update. For general enemies they remain viable even throughout the Hardmode Jungle and even Dungeon and the Knives and Bow can easily take down Plantera on Normal Mode despite being early hardmode weapons. I checked for myself when I used Shadowflame Knives and Hallowed Armor while exploring the Jungle for Chlorophyte and Life Fruit on Master Mode and didn't really die many times.
 

cupnewacup

Terrarian
One of the "competing" suggestions for the Reaver Shark nerf has always been locking it behind a boss. This . . . "would work", but I dislike it from a game design perspective. Why? Because nothing communicates this to you. The Shark just "invisibly" becomes available from a rare fishing source, and no one is any the wiser. While we have a few examples of things happening like that, I don't generally prefer it. The Hardmode transition is one of the only instances of the game where things CHANGE, and people know to expect something new.

The Reaver Shark has been a staple of "skipping most of the first half of the game" for years now, and not in a good way. Despite the insistence that Hellstone isn't that useful, or that surviving the Underworld earns it, I don't think that is the case. Otherwise people wouldn't be doing it. As I said prior, I'd like to explore a Reaver Shark rebalance of some sort. But it won't involve an increase in mining power. I didn't fight for this change only to undo it. If it could mine Hellstone, it may as well have never been changed at all, and I have very strong feelings on that matter.
Locking it behind a boss would be awkward, yes. I never really liked things like Mothron only dropping the Broken Sword Handle (or whatever it's called) arbitrarily after either Plantera or Golem, can't recall which. I wasn't intending to seriously give off the impression that I was behind that method, I was just trying to make an observation about how it would indeed be awkward to try to change it in that way, so I apologize for giving off that impression.

In regards to the choices people make in progression and the negative association with the Reaver Shark skipping a bunch of progression (honestly, I'd say that pre-Hardmode and the earliest of Hardmode is only like, 3/16ths of the game, but that's being pedantic, and Terraria is a big game in the first place), I can only speak for myself and those I've interacted with, so I'll defer to your experiences on the forums. I don't have any more comments to make on that regard that I haven't already stated.

On another note, I think that the summoning class overhaul is great. It felt like the class that was most wanting for one, and you guys delivered in spades; the whips allowing for more direct control over what was attacked felt like something that was missing from the start, and additional options for pre-Hardmode makes it much easier to notice that it's actually a class that exists.
 
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Tyrian3k

Duke Fishron
2. The entire reason that Reaver Shark was nerfed was because it could mine Hellstone. I do understand that it takes away some choices, but this choice was too easy. It was simply too easy to rush to the Ocean, fish up a Reaver Shark, and get the end-gear of pre-HM (as long as you can survive, which many could). In my mind, it was never about Reaver being able to mine Cobalt . . . that had far less impact, IMO, than its ability to mine Hellstone. So in that vein, I do not consider it an overcorrection, because it was a specific correction that did exactly what it was intended to (stop Hellstone sequence break). It simply offered too much progression-skipping for the amount of effort that went into it, and I don't consider fishing rarity to be a balancing factor to that.
I personally think that it would have been better to keep the Reaver Shark as it was before, but lock it behind the EoW/BoC by making it impossible to get before the EoW/BoC has been defeated. That way you have the choice to get your Nightmare Pickaxe or go fish in the Ocean for a Reaver Shark instead with the Fleshcatcher/Fisher of Souls. That would have made it a better choice over the Nightmare Pick, but it wouldn't have been able to mine anything that the Nightmare Pick couldn't in Pre-HM.
But if that's not an option and it does have to stay at lower pickaxe power, it should definitely be a lot faster than Gold or Platinum pickaxes. Otherwise it's simply not worth the effort of going all the way to the ocean to fish it when you could just mine some gold/platinum and have a pickaxe that is actually slightly faster than the Reaver Shark.
 

Cheezegami

Pixel Pirate
Maybe a small thing but I've been trying to get a Zombie Frog summon for a while now, I got over 6 bows and no summons after killing over 20 of them on master mode, at this point we've done EoW which allows you to obtain the Fire Imp staff easily which also probably outclasses it. (Still haven't got it). There seems to be a huge gap between summon weapons early pre-hardmode in that regard. (Since the bee staff is also locked behind queen bee and Queen Bee is mostly fought after EoW)

(I'd consider the Slime Staff but the drop rate is still neglectable) Also the finch staff seems to knock enemies towards the player which has been a nuisance.

That turned out to be a bit more than a small thing. 😆
 
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