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Journey's End 1.4: Official Item Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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Sia_Later

Terrarian
Also, this isn't really a balance thing, but if minions can't critical hit then I don't understand why they can get modifiers that affect crit chance. Other weapons that lack certain stats such as knockback can't get modifiers that affect that stat, so why can minions? All it does is pollute their modifier pool and make reforging needlessly expensive.
I hadn't really given any thought to it, but yeah i have no idea why minions can't normally crit, unless there's some programming reason why they can't, they should let summons crit
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
I hadn't really given any thought to it, but yeah i have no idea why minions can't normally crit, unless there's some programming reason why they can't, they should let summons crit
Critical chance is based on the weapon you are currently holding, this is fine for weapons you actively use however you never hold onto summoning weapons for long, they're a summon and done type of deal. This is probably why summons only crit under special circumstances, either by using lighting auras with the right armor, or tag critting with certain whips.
 

Mail

Official Terrarian
...Also, this isn't really a balance thing, but if minions can't critical hit then I don't understand why they can get modifiers that affect crit chance. Other weapons that lack certain stats such as knockback can't get modifiers that affect that stat, so why can minions? All it does is pollute their modifier pool and make reforging needlessly expensive.

Although, if they were changed to be able to critical hit like every other weapon in the game, it would fix that issue and also give summoners a small but needed buff. I still don't know why they can't, and it doesn't seem to me like it would break anything if they could.
There are lots of modifiers that increase useful stats in addition to critical, most notably Legendary. Blocking any modifier that had crit would lock many of these useful modifiers out of the pool. Modifiers were introduced before weapons that could not crit became a common thing, which is probably why the game does not have special mods more appropriate for these cases.

Projectiles don't remember their critical hit chance. The game checks the player's current held weapon and separately increments melee, ranged, and magic critical regardless of weapon type. The game has to use a player's currently held weapon critical chance for every projectile, including summons from that player. Enabling critical hits on summon type damage would require major code changes to fix the inconsistent behavior that has already been rejected as a bug, so it can never happen.

Side note: If you have live projectiles while you are using smart cursor to place a torch, your projectiles will get their crit chance from the torch. This is also why it can be very useful to have a high crit rate on your pickaxe even if you never hit anything with it.
 
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Lythael

Terrarian
Its a shame.
Holding a fully critted Sniper Rifle while 11~ Terraprismas are active would be hilarious against bosses if crit chance worked for summons.
 

Sia_Later

Terrarian
Critical chance is based on the weapon you are currently holding, this is fine for weapons you actively use however you never hold onto summoning weapons for long, they're a summon and done type of deal. This is probably why summons only crit under special circumstances, either by using lighting auras with the right armor, or tag critting with certain whips.
This logic doesn't really hold for me, it's the exact same case with damage, summons use the damage of when they are summoned (and i think crits should work the same way) If you want to exploit this fact you can switch to dps accessories to summon minions and once they're summoned switch to defensive accessories. So why can't it work the same way with crit chance?
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
This logic doesn't really hold for me, it's the exact same case with damage, summons use the damage of when they are summoned (and i think crits should work the same way) If you want to exploit this fact you can switch to dps accessories to summon minions and once they're summoned switch to defensive accessories. So why can't it work the same way with crit chance?
Tthat was fixed in 1.4, although strangely only for summons, lingering magic weapons (nimbus rod, clinger staff, magnet sphere, rainbow gun) can still get around the spectre hoods damage penalty for example.


Its a shame.
Holding a fully critted Sniper Rifle while 11~ Terraprismas are active would be hilarious against bosses if crit chance worked for summons.
It's also linked to the class, so holding a ranged weapon only increases critical chance for ranged projectiles. You can do things like hold a sky fracture to make the nimbus rod crit more though.


There are lots of modifiers that increase useful stats in addition to critical, most notably Legendary.
Speed modifers reduce whip range so legendary is bad for them.
 
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Sia_Later

Terrarian
Tthat was fixed in 1.4, although strangely only for summons, lingering magic weapons (nimbus rod, clinger staff, magnet sphere, rainbow gun) can still get around the spectre hoods damage penalty for example.
Oh i didn't know that, my bad. So is there any sort of technical limitation for why summon weapons can't crit or is that a design choice?
 

Mail

Official Terrarian
Tthat was fixed in 1.4, although strangely only for summons, lingering magic weapons (nimbus rod, clinger staff, magnet sphere, rainbow gun) can still get around the spectre hoods damage penalty for example.
Individual projectiles are assigned a damage value, unlike critical chance which comes only from the player. Some game mechanics influence the damage value recorded in the projectile and others are applied only when the projectile deals damage.
It's also linked to the class, so holding a ranged weapon only increases critical chance for ranged projectiles. You can do things like hold a sky fracture to make the nimbus rod crit more though.
Unfortunately, this statement is most definitely false. Sniper rifle increases nimbus rod critical hit chance. Try it for yourself.
Speed modifers reduce whip range so legendary is bad for them.
A known issue that might be fixed.
Oh i didn't know that, my bad. So is there any sort of technical limitation for why summon weapons can't crit or is that a design choice?
Because crit chance is bugged for projectiles, summon critical hit chance would always come from whatever weapon you are holding instead of the item that summoned the minions. Holding a sniper rifle would give all minions a massively high crit rate. I suspect that critical hits on summons were not enabled when summons were introduced to work around this bug. Now that summons are balanced around not having crits, it would be a massive balance change to enable it.
 

CellarDoor96

Terrarian
There are lots of modifiers that increase useful stats in addition to critical, most notably Legendary. Blocking any modifier that had crit would lock many of these useful modifiers out of the pool. Modifiers were introduced before weapons that could not crit became a common thing, which is probably why the game does not have special mods more appropriate for these cases.
Summons really only need damage bonuses from their modifiers, which means that they aren't missing out on much if some that give other bonuses are removed from their pool. In fact, the only summons that would have their best modifier affected by the change - the Slime, Finch, and Blade Staves - would still get the same damage bonus from their new best modifier.

Projectiles don't remember their critical hit chance. The game checks the player's current held weapon and separately increments melee, ranged, and magic critical regardless of weapon type. The game has to use a player's currently held weapon critical chance for every projectile, including summons from that player. Enabling critical hits on summon type damage would require major code changes to fix the inconsistent behavior that has already been rejected as a bug, so it can never happen.
That makes sense and was something I didn't know, so thank you. I'm guessing then that whips' crit chance buffs only apply to summons while the whip is held, which is how they get around that restriction.

Disappointing but understandable. Even if that's the case, though, I'd still like for all the useless modifier bonuses summon weapons get to be addressed in some way. Another thought I had was for speed bonuses to increase either summons' movement speed or attack speed, but I feel like that would be a much bigger mess to balance and/or implement.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
Unfortunately, this statement is most definitely false. Sniper rifle increases nimbus rod critical hit chance. Try it for yourself.
My bad it seems that weapons' inital critical boosts does effect other class projectiles while held, however not critical boosts from gear so if you have a bunch of ranged crit gear your rifle will display a higher crit chance but only the base 25-30%(depending on weapon modifier) will be added to the nimbus rod.
 
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Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
Yeah? Well see.. Cause the fact that they made certain common appearing things extremely rare now in 1.4 (Enchanted Sword Shrines , Living Mahogany Trees , Waterbolt - before you say anything i had 2 large worlds where there was only single copy in entire dungeon and at the very bottom of the dungeon - checked via map viewers.)
Just want to comment on this, because I'd like to clear a couple things up:
1. Enchanted Sword Shrines WERE made more rare, but we removed the fake shrines entirely. In total, I believe there are more "real" shrines than there were before, but it feels like less because you don't ever find the fake shrines. However, we are also re-assessing the shrine rates overall for 1.4.1. Not because they were rarer than before, but because the increased need for Enchanted Swords has increased their demand, leading to a perception of being too rare.
2. Living Mahogany Trees (and underground cabins in general) were hit by a bug that broke their spawning on certain sides of the Jungle. This has been fixed in 1.4.1 and should no longer be an issue.
3. We made it so that Waterbolts would no longer generate at the surface of the Dungeon, but we did not make them more rare otherwise, aside from potentially losing some real estate due to to Cracked Brick taking up space. So while Waterbolts might be slightly less common than before, they aren't dramatically so.

I'm a console player, meaning my worlds have rarer gold chests than on PC, and I'll agree that they can be pretty elusive at times. Combining that with the drop pool, it can get pretty frustrating to get my 7th flare gun trying for a magic mirror or Hermes boots. Adding the Horseshoe to the crate loot pool could help with that, and I respect your preference for fishing over caving. I personally think golden crates are extremely rare, but if you prefer it, that's fine.
I'm not aware of Console specifically having less Gold Chests, but if they do, its likely a version issue, and would be resolved by the time Console is caught up to 1.4. So this issue is only one in passing, and won't be an issue by the time these changes trickle down.

In the golden chest topic a lot of people are saying how diluted the loot pool is becoming. So why don't you make the Flare Gun and Extractinator secondary items (and pets to for that matter).
We actually consider a more diluted Gold Chest loot pool to be a good thing.

You mentioned Pets, but most, if not all, of the rare chest-found pets can be found from fishing crates in 1.4.
 

Lythael

Terrarian
1. Enchanted Sword Shrines WERE made more rare, but we removed the fake shrines entirely. In total, I believe there are more "real" shrines than there were before, but it feels like less
Wait hold on. What do you mean that fake shrines were removed entirely?
I could have sworn i bumped into "fake" shrines in 1.4. They still seems to exist.
Tho that was while randomly exploring they were not in the Kidney shaped area they usually are just in random spot in underground layers.

I attatched a screenshot.
Too bad i didn't take a screenshot of actually breaking it so i can't prove it but if you could take my word for it. It didn't contain the Enchanted Sword after i broke it. Honestly.

PS: And on top of that i've seen people mentioning these random shrines having chance to contain real swords too but i cannot confirm that cause i've yet to find a random one that had enchanted sword in it.
So something is not right here? Or all working as intented?
 

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CrabBar

Official Terrarian
I'd bite the bullet again and remind that giving summoner the option to freely crit will be a balancing disaster.
Early on, while crit sources would indeed help increase summoner's damage, it's not a huge benefit (most of crit is Lucky reforge, when Menacing would be favored) and won't assist with minions having faulty AI
However, closer to endgame you'd be blooming with crit and that can go as far as almost double damage for already competitive weapons. As the result, early game is not assisted that much and endgame scales into madness. Repurposing good dozen of weapons to accommodate for crit changes isn't a great resource investment either. Besides, that will mean making later minions weaker, which erases the power progression of them (you'd be able to use earlier summons almost as effectively as later ones).

We actually consider a more diluted Gold Chest loot pool to be a good thing.
That's mostly true, but there is one sore point IMHO: Hermes Boots. An item that is almost essential to get to comfortable gameplay now is behind heavier RNG gate, even with the amount of available Gold Chests you get to open. Flurry Boots as Snow analogue are almost as rare, and Sailfish Boots are crate drop which also isn't reliable. I've had a few playthroughs that were getting a pair of boots as late as 6-8 hours in (that's with regular Pre-HM lasting 10 hours), after getting Rocket Boots and Horseshoe Balloon even; as well as some when Hermes Boots are gifted in first golden chest in cave entrance.
Now, obviously due to how open-ended Terraria progression is, that can be circumvented like almost any other item, but boots are as close to "core item" group as possible, while not being quite as consistent to get.
 

Nikitas10

Terrarian
We actually consider a more diluted Gold Chest loot pool to be a good thing.
Well, in the case of the golden horseshoe, it being diluted doesn't really help its case being in there when you could just potion flip to get a accessory (Fletching Wings) you be using for the entirely of Pre-HM.
 

Nikitas10

Terrarian
I'd bite the bullet again and remind that giving summoner the option to freely crit will be a balancing disaster.
Early on, while crit sources would indeed help increase summoner's damage, it's not a huge benefit (most of crit is Lucky reforge, when Menacing would be favored) and won't assist with minions having faulty AI
However, closer to endgame you'd be blooming with crit and that can go as far as almost double damage for already competitive weapons. As the result, early game is not assisted that much and endgame scales into madness. Repurposing good dozen of weapons to accommodate for crit changes isn't a great resource investment either. Besides, that will mean making later minions weaker, which erases the power progression of them (you'd be able to use earlier summons almost as effectively as later ones).
Other point I add is the fact it just boost all the other classes gain the same benefit if you allow summon tools to crit, so your pointing helping summoner by putting crit would just make it under-classed the same before
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
Wait hold on. What do you mean that fake shrines were removed entirely?
I could have sworn i bumped into "fake" shrines in 1.4. They still seems to exist.
Tho that was while randomly exploring they were not in the Kidney shaped area they usually are just in random spot in underground layers.

I attatched a screenshot.
Too bad i didn't take a screenshot of actually breaking it so i can't prove it but if you could take my word for it. It didn't contain the Enchanted Sword after i broke it. Honestly.

PS: And on top of that i've seen people mentioning these random shrines having chance to contain real swords too but i cannot confirm that cause i've yet to find a random one that had enchanted sword in it.
So something is not right here? Or all working as intented?
That's not a shrine, that is one of the "original" background rubble piles that dropped Enchanted Swords since 1.2.

I'm referring to the at-the-surface grassy shrines with a sword inside that were added in 1.3. In 1.3.5.3 and earlier, surface Enchanted Sword Shrines only had a 1/3 chance of actually containing a real sword.

So if by 1.3.5.3 standards, the average world had 2 shrines, you'd only have an average of 0.66 actual Enchanted Sword/Arkhalis chances per world.

So in 1.4, even if the total average shrines per world is down to say, 1 per world, they are guaranteed to actually contain a real sword.

That's mostly true, but there is one sore point IMHO: Hermes Boots. An item that is almost essential to get to comfortable gameplay now is behind heavier RNG gate, even with the amount of available Gold Chests you get to open. Flurry Boots as Snow analogue are almost as rare, and Sailfish Boots are crate drop which also isn't reliable. I've had a few playthroughs that were getting a pair of boots as late as 6-8 hours in (that's with regular Pre-HM lasting 10 hours), after getting Rocket Boots and Horseshoe Balloon even; as well as some when Hermes Boots are gifted in first golden chest in cave entrance.
Now, obviously due to how open-ended Terraria progression is, that can be circumvented like almost any other item, but boots are as close to "core item" group as possible, while not being quite as consistent to get.
Hermes Boots have tinker-compatible alternatives in both the Snow and Desert biomes, as well as via Fishing. You say that isn't reliable or are equally rare, but I consider this quite an array of sources for getting such an item.

Well, in the case of the golden horseshoe, it being diluted doesn't really help its case being in there when you could just potion flip to get a accessory (Fletching Wings) you be using for the entirely of Pre-HM.
Gravitation Potions aren't always exceedingly accessible, and you are far more likely to be raiding multiple Gold Chests before you can reliably get your hands on a Gravitation Potion. Furthermore, that is not a strategy that is immediately obvious to newer players, who may not even be aware of Floating Islands. IMO, Gravitation Potion is not an immediate nullifer for Floating Island accessibility balance.
 

Nikitas10

Terrarian
Gravitation Potions aren't always exceedingly accessible, and you are far more likely to be raiding multiple Gold Chests before you can reliably get your hands on a Gravitation Potion. Furthermore, that is not a strategy that is immediately obvious to newer players, who may not even be aware of Floating Islands. IMO, Gravitation Potion is not an immediate nullifer for Floating Island accessibility balance.
Well if you call it a strategy for older players, it most likely gonna be nerfed. And Gravitiation Potion aren't the only way to get up, as with the snake charmer flute can help with that, and the fact the wings are such a powercreep compare to other mobility options you have, I rather see them put in dungeon or locked behind a golden key.
 

Lythael

Terrarian
That's not a shrine, that is one of the "original" background rubble piles that dropped Enchanted Swords since 1.2.

I'm referring to the at-the-surface grassy shrines with a sword inside that were added in 1.3. In 1.3.5.3 and earlier, surface Enchanted Sword Shrines only had a 1/3 chance of actually containing a real sword.

So if by 1.3.5.3 standards, the average world had 2 shrines, you'd only have an average of 0.66 actual Enchanted Sword/Arkhalis chances per world.

So in 1.4, even if the total average shrines per world is down to say, 1 per world, they are guaranteed to actually contain a real sword.
Oh i see i always thought of those as the "shrines" not the area they were in.

As for the Horseshoe so that means it won't be available via fishing crates anymore as it is now in 1.4?
Just from Golden Chests in 1.4.1?
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
As for the Horseshoe so that means it won't be available via fishing crates anymore as it is now in 1.4?
Just from Golden Chests in 1.4.1?
That is correct.

Well if you call it a strategy for older players, it most likely gonna be nerfed. And Gravitiation Potion aren't the only way to get up, as with the snake charmer flute can help with that, and the fact the wings are such a powercreep compare to other mobility options you have, I rather see them put in dungeon or locked behind a golden key.
Seems like a pretty big assumption there. Fledgling Wings aren't all that powerful, I do think people are overestimating their potency.
 
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