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Journey's End 1.4: Official Item Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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Derpling Ω

Plantera
In my opinion, that's because it's a laser gun. And I would love to see a Mage figure who would be a real Glass Cannon. And the Meteorite Armor would benefit a lot.
No I mean the zapinator's whole gimmick is that it's properties are "intentionally unintentional" and the fact that meteor armor synergizes with it could be an example of that. Meteor Armor is in a really good spot right now anyway, it definitely doesn't need a buff.
 

Sia_Later

Terrarian
The issue with armors that benefit all classes including summoners is then you have to worry about how the buffs to the other classes would work in conjuction with summon weapons.

Let’s take Crystal Assassin Armor, and say we added 2 minions to it. Boom, now it has utility for both Summoners and all other classes - but then you consider that its defense is balanced around the other 3 classes too. Now, its defense is too strong for a summoner.

Additionally, what if you used a Megashark with your minions? Then both your Megashark and your minions have the damage boost along with the extra minions, and now the armor set is too strong.

So, let’s nerf the damage bonuses or the defensive bonuses offered by Crystal Assassin armor as compromise. Suddenly, it becomes unviable to other classes except for mixed Summoner, and now it’s just a Summoner armor instead of a generalist armor.

So, let’s nerf the capability of Summoner in the armor set instead. Let’s give it 1 extra minion instead. Now, a summoner has no reason to use the set over Spider because they’ll get much more from 2 extra minions and a greater damage boost than they would with the Megashark - and they can use the Megashark on spider armor anyway with a bit less damage. Now we’re back where we started where it has no niche for summoners.

This issue can be seen with the Forbidden Armor. Compared to Adamantite or Titanium, it’s too weak for a mage, so you realistically only would use it if you’re a summoner with mage support. Thus, a set intended to be for both mage and summoner ends up really just being for a version of summoner.

And, yeah, it wouldn’t hurt for Summoner to have extra armor sets, and considering other classes might not utilize the Crystal Assassin set anyway it wouldn’t hurt too much. But then we don’t have the unique generalist armor.

I’m all down for giving summoner more options for the game, but you gotta consider where summoner stands compared to other classes.
The entire point of armor sets that benefit all classes is that you use each of the classes' tools so like for the mega shark example, it should be balanced around having minions and benefits to other weapons. Just because there currently isn't one right now doesn't mean the balance for it is untenable, just that it hasn't been tried.

The reason summoner is viable is because you get a lot of minions which has a multiplicative effect on damage, so just having less minions (like 1 in prehardmode, 2 in hardmode, and 3 in late hardmode) would mean that you'd have a clear reason to prefer going with the full summoner armor rather than the multiclass armor.

Without having a plethora of minions, just having a few extra, they could easily balance having summons with ranged, melee, or magic.

As for balancing the defense values, they can make the bonuses to the class proportional to the amount of armor lost comparatively to their class armor. So melee, having the highest armor usually, would get more bonuses than say mage, who has less armor.

I'm down for giving summoners more armor sets or options as well, but that's not really what i'm trying to propose. I mean to propose a more hybrid class than a summoner with non-whip summoner class.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
The issue with armors that benefit all classes including summoners is then you have to worry about how the buffs to the other classes would work in conjuction with summon weapons.

Let’s take Crystal Assassin Armor, and say we added 2 minions to it. Boom, now it has utility for both Summoners and all other classes - but then you consider that its defense is balanced around the other 3 classes too. Now, its defense is too strong for a summoner.

Additionally, what if you used a Megashark with your minions? Then both your Megashark and your minions have the damage boost along with the extra minions, and now the armor set is too strong.
I think hallowed armor with the hood serves as a good 'all class' armor you get an extra 3 minions which do some passive damage, and you still have 7%damage and crit for any non summon weapons you support your summons with. And of course... for defense you got that overpowered holy protection.

So, let’s nerf the damage bonuses or the defensive bonuses offered by Crystal Assassin armor as compromise. Suddenly, it becomes unviable to other classes except for mixed Summoner, and now it’s just a Summoner armor instead of a generalist armor.
A few points of defense won't dramatically change an armor's viability especially when you have either palladium or hallowed armor which provide much better defensive effects.

This issue can be seen with the Forbidden Armor. Compared to Adamantite or Titanium, it’s too weak for a mage, so you realistically only would use it if you’re a summoner with mage support. Thus, a set intended to be for both mage and summoner ends up really just being for a version of summoner.
Forbbiden has a decent set bonus to make up for its undewhelming stats, crystal assassin is just underwhelming stats.


The entire point of armor sets that benefit all classes is that you use each of the classes' tools so like for the mega shark example, it should be balanced around having minions and benefits to other weapons. Just because there currently isn't one right now doesn't mean the balance for it is untenable, just that it hasn't been tried.

The reason summoner is viable is because you get a lot of minions which has a multiplicative effect on damage, so just having less minions (like 1 in prehardmode, 2 in hardmode, and 3 in late hardmode) would mean that you'd have a clear reason to prefer going with the full summoner armor rather than the multiclass armor.

Without having a plethora of minions, just having a few extra, they could easily balance having summons with ranged, melee, or magic.

As for balancing the defense values, they can make the bonuses to the class proportional to the amount of armor lost comparatively to their class armor. So melee, having the highest armor usually, would get more bonuses than say mage, who has less armor.

I'm down for giving summoners more armor sets or options as well, but that's not really what i'm trying to propose. I mean to propose a more hybrid class than a summoner with non-whip summoner class.
You should totally try a hybrid build some time for example, Shroomite/red ridinging/ spooky, for ranged summon hybrid, Shinnobi/spooky/valhalla for melee, or hallowed/spooky/dark artist for mage, You get decent stats in whatever main weapon class you want and a nice boost to summons as well.
 

Sia_Later

Terrarian
You should totally try a hybrid build some time for example, Shroomite/red ridinging/ spooky, for ranged summon hybrid, Shinnobi/spooky/valhalla for melee, or hallowed/spooky/dark artist for mage, You get decent stats in whatever main weapon class you want and a nice boost to summons as well.
Sounds fun, i just wish the game would show direct support for the playstyle
 
I know you were talking about generalist builds that include summoners. The point I was making is that a generalist armor, balanced to include summoners, doesn’t fit well.

Either your benefits to summoners are viable and then the armor set becomes too powerful as a whole due to mixed class summoner, or you end up with a set that is really only viable to hybrid summoners (note: this wouldn’t be bad per se, but then it isn’t generalist anymore), or it holds no niche for summoners and ends up being a melee/ranged/magic armor set with say an extra minion tacked on.

That’s the thing with summoners relying on numbers of minions as their source of damage. By offering, say, +1 minion, then the player’s main damage source becomes their melee/ranged/magic weapon, but by offering +2 or +3 minions, their main damage source is suddenly their minions. You either have a generalist set that discludes summoners, or a set that isn’t even generalist anymore. This is also why it’s so easy for hybrid summon builds to boost too much and end up being too strong.

For example, about a month ago I did a ranged/summon only run. My hybrid build of Spooky Armor with Red Riding chestplate that I had a recent playthrough, available the second you kill Golem, was VERY close to broken.

Example for the second problem is Forbidden. Personally, the set bonus is nowhere near worth all the sacrifices from Mage build, so it still becomes a Summoner armor with Ranged focus. Another one is, as qwerty brought up, the Hallowed Hood - it’s a summoner armor set, not a general. Yeah it provides universal boosts, but they are so small it turns into exclusively a summoner set. It’s not a bad armor set... but it isn’t generalist.

Example for the third problem is pretty much any OOA armor set. They provide hefty bonuses to both x class and summoners, but the bonuses they provide to summoners aren’t enough - no extra minions, and sentries on their own suck. Unless you’re using the OOA sets as I did for the first example, you really only use them to min-max melee/ranged/magic.

There are sets or combinations pretty close to a generalist set that includes summoner already - close enough to be used as an example - and they all show that although it’s cool on paper, it’s very very difficult to make a good generalist armor set that includes summoner
 

KainDarkfire

Terrarian
Magical Harp attacks with notes, i.e. attacks with music, i.e. attacks with sound, so its projectiles should increase speed in the water.
That's not how it works. Sound will take the slowest path, if anything they'd bounce off the water.
Crystal Assassin Armor provides no benefits to summoner
The issue with armors that benefit all classes including summoners is then you have to worry about how the buffs to the other classes would work in conjuction with summon weapons.
I agree for the most part. But much like the Ninja set, it simply under performs. If Critical was replaced with Armor Penetration in both cases, they'd actually be a different yet viable sets. Initially thought maybe armor pen and +1 minion slot to feel like a real hybrid set, but then I remembered that accessories exist.

And recall that there's no set past that to get in late game. Which is fine, by then you should accept your fate with one of the play styles instead of being able to mix any combination of late game weapons, but at the same time I kinda want to do exactly that.
The reason summoner is viable is because you get a lot of minions which has a multiplicative effect on damage,
It does on paper. Most summons don't have great base damage, don't land every attack, and some frequently LoS themselves and break their attack cycle anyway. Pitted against bosses most of these are non-factors. Trying to play Terraria in general though? It can be real rough.
 

Sia_Later

Terrarian
I know you were talking about generalist builds that include summoners. The point I was making is that a generalist armor, balanced to include summoners, doesn’t fit well.

Either your benefits to summoners are viable and then the armor set becomes too powerful as a whole due to mixed class summoner, or you end up with a set that is really only viable to hybrid summoners (note: this wouldn’t be bad per se, but then it isn’t generalist anymore), or it holds no niche for summoners and ends up being a melee/ranged/magic armor set with say an extra minion tacked on.

That’s the thing with summoners relying on numbers of minions as their source of damage. By offering, say, +1 minion, then the player’s main damage source becomes their melee/ranged/magic weapon, but by offering +2 or +3 minions, their main damage source is suddenly their minions. You either have a generalist set that discludes summoners, or a set that isn’t even generalist anymore. This is also why it’s so easy for hybrid summon builds to boost too much and end up being too strong.

For example, about a month ago I did a ranged/summon only run. My hybrid build of Spooky Armor with Red Riding chestplate that I had a recent playthrough, available the second you kill Golem, was VERY close to broken.

Example for the second problem is Forbidden. Personally, the set bonus is nowhere near worth all the sacrifices from Mage build, so it still becomes a Summoner armor with Ranged focus. Another one is, as qwerty brought up, the Hallowed Hood - it’s a summoner armor set, not a general. Yeah it provides universal boosts, but they are so small it turns into exclusively a summoner set. It’s not a bad armor set... but it isn’t generalist.

Example for the third problem is pretty much any OOA armor set. They provide hefty bonuses to both x class and summoners, but the bonuses they provide to summoners aren’t enough - no extra minions, and sentries on their own suck. Unless you’re using the OOA sets as I did for the first example, you really only use them to min-max melee/ranged/magic.

There are sets or combinations pretty close to a generalist set that includes summoner already - close enough to be used as an example - and they all show that although it’s cool on paper, it’s very very difficult to make a good generalist armor set that includes summoner
the thing that balances the summons out is less bonuses to magic, ranged, and melee weapons. There's nothing inherently broken about what i'm suggesting, if you have armor sets that benefit all classes then they just have to have less damage output from their main weapon as compared to the class that has that weapon, and have less summons than a summoner
also what is OOA?
 
the thing that balances the summons out is less bonuses to magic, ranged, and melee weapons. There's nothing inherently broken about what i'm suggesting, if you have armor sets that benefit all classes then they just have to have less damage output from their main weapon as compared to the class that has that weapon, and have less summons than a summoner
also what is OOA?
The thing is that the existing multiclass armors already work this way, and are considered inferior by the majority of players. Without summoner, the solution is to bring the generalist armors up to just —slightly— below its competitors, but with summoner, as I already stated, this doesn’t work.

Refer back to scenario 2: If we weaken the bonuses it gives to other classes, then it becomes useless for those classes and becomes a hybrid summoner armor. Weakening summoner’s role as well in it doesn’t help either, because it doesn’t fix the issue that it is still unviable for the first three classes. If you buffed it to be viable for the first three classes again, you’d have to nerf its summoner ability to oblivion for it to not be too powerful. Again, this isn’t a bad build, but it also loses its generalist ability. It simply doesn’t work for generalist armors when this happens because then they just don’t work without sinking most of your damage into summoners, at which point, they aren’t a generalist armor set anymore.

Edit: OOA is old ones army btw
 
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MrD108

Official Terrarian
That's not how it works. Sound will take the slowest path, if anything they'd bounce off the water.
What? Sound travels faster in water than in air.
I mean situations like deep-sea combat where the harp's missiles should accelerate, not slow down.
 

Sia_Later

Terrarian
The thing is that the existing multiclass armors already work this way, and are considered inferior by the majority of players. Without summoner, the solution is to bring the generalist armors up to just —slightly— below its competitors, but with summoner, as I already stated, this doesn’t work.

Refer back to scenario 2: If we weaken the bonuses it gives to other classes, then it becomes useless for those classes and becomes a hybrid summoner armor. Weakening summoner’s role as well in it doesn’t help either, because it doesn’t fix the issue that it is still unviable for the first three classes. If you buffed it to be viable for the first three classes again, you’d have to nerf its summoner ability to oblivion for it to not be too powerful. Again, this isn’t a bad build, but it also loses its generalist ability. It simply doesn’t work for generalist armors when this happens because then they just don’t work without sinking most of your damage into summoners, at which point, they aren’t a generalist armor set anymore.

Edit: OOA is old ones army btw
What you're saying is true, you either have to have it not benefit summoner or be a "hybrid summoner armor". But what i'm wanting is "hybrid summoner armor" that doesn't just have summoner benefits plus one other class, but summoner benefits plus benefits for all the other classes.

If you want armor sets that benefit two classes that aren't summoner, there are a few examples of that, such as frost armor, already. I'm not opposed to having more of that though

So here's are some examples of what kind of weapons you might have in the setup i'd like (not including summoning potions to increase summoning cap)
  • Early game (make copper armor all class) and use
  • wand of sparking for damage and on fire
  • any spear if enemies get close
  • any bow with jester arrows if you get swarmed
  • 2 slimes or 2 birds from slime staff or finch staff

  • Midgame (make platinum armor for all classes) and use
  • Flamelash for getting around walls or targeting fliers
  • Sunfury for blocking of ground enemies
  • minishark for when you mana runs out or for dps against bosses
  • an imp from the imp staff and a hornet from the hornet staff (so you get both debuffs)
i could go on but i think you get the general idea

Edit: spacing for legibility
 
What you're saying is true, you either have to have it not benefit summoner or be a "hybrid summoner armor". But what i'm wanting is "hybrid summoner armor" that doesn't just have summoner benefits plus one other class, but summoner benefits plus benefits for all the other classes.

If you want armor sets that benefit two classes that aren't summoner, there are a few examples of that, such as frost armor, already. I'm not opposed to having more of that though

So here's are some examples of what kind of weapons you might have in the setup i'd like (not including summoning potions to increase summoning cap)
  • Early game (make copper armor all class) and use
  • wand of sparking for damage and on fire
  • any spear if enemies get close
  • any bow with jester arrows if you get swarmed
  • 2 slimes or 2 birds from slime staff or finch staff

  • Midgame (make platinum armor for all classes) and use
  • Flamelash for getting around walls or targeting fliers
  • Sunfury for blocking of ground enemies
  • minishark for when you mana runs out or for dps against bosses
  • an imp from the imp staff and a hornet from the hornet staff (so you get both debuffs)
i could go on but i think you get the general idea

Edit: spacing for legibility
Okay, that makes more sense and having more hybrid summoner sets is something I could agree with. What threw me off is that it was being referred to as a “generalist set that includes summoner”, which such a thing isn’t plausible without making it not generalist
 
As a change of topic, I have a random little nitpick.

Spider Armor should require a Mythril or Orchialcum Anvil, and maybe hardmode ore bars.

Think about it, Summoner is the class most capable of mining due to not having to divert their attention off of anything, but they have virtually no incentive to go mining throughout the entire game. Encouraging them to at least craft an Orchialcum Anvil would encourage *some* mining, even if not very extensive, before it becomes an easy undertaking.

On the subject of including bars, Spider Armor is supposed to be summoner equivalent of ore armors, which I know was done because balancing summoner helmets into the ore armors would be difficult to balance. But due to this equivalency, it would make sense for it to use hardmode ores, right?

Such ore could be either Cobalt or Mythril or their equivalents, for two reasons: 1, due to the requirement of Spider Fangs, making it Adamantite or Titanium would make it a bit harder than other armors, and 2: it doesn’t become available too much later so summoner doesn’t take as big a hit. Spider Fang yield from spiders should also be increased so the spider grinding is faster.

This would also help make Summoner less ‘distant’ from the other classes, as you would go through generally the same progression in early Hardmode.

(and I just think grinding spiders for 15 minutes is lame and adding the ore requirement would mix it up a bit)

Of course, this was a random thought and not at all a big deal, so take this with a grain of salt.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
The thing is that the existing multiclass armors already work this way, and are considered inferior by the majority of players. Without summoner, the solution is to bring the generalist armors up to just —slightly— below its competitors, but with summoner, as I already stated, this doesn’t work.
Crystal assassin is really the only weak all class armor right now.

Ninja armor is good because you can get it early on, and even though its stats are low its usually competing with no armor. It's also really good for gearing up a team in multiplayer since killing 2 king slimes will get your whole team equiped since each player gets a seperate treasure bag.

Pumpkin armor is a slight upgrade that can be obtained after killing the next boss EoC.

Crimson armor is considered by many to be the best pre hardmode armor thanks to its regen.

The issue with crystal assassin is that it just has low stats and unlike ninja or pumpkin its not like you can get it earlier than armors with better stats as queen slime is easily on par with the mechanical bosses. Which immediatly means its trying to compete with hallowed armor. Hallowed armor is a way better defensively and thanks to the extra minion slots its better at offense as well.


As a change of topic, I have a random little nitpick.

Spider Armor should require a Mythril or Orchialcum Anvil, and maybe hardmode ore bars.

Think about it, Summoner is the class most capable of mining due to not having to divert their attention off of anything, but they have virtually no incentive to go mining throughout the entire game. Encouraging them to at least craft an Orchialcum Anvil would encourage *some* mining, even if not very extensive, before it becomes an easy undertaking.

On the subject of including bars, Spider Armor is supposed to be summoner equivalent of ore armors, which I know was done because balancing summoner helmets into the ore armors would be difficult to balance. But due to this equivalency, it would make sense for it to use hardmode ores, right?

Such ore could be either Cobalt or Mythril or their equivalents, for two reasons: 1, due to the requirement of Spider Fangs, making it Adamantite or Titanium would make it a bit harder than other armors, and 2: it doesn’t become available too much later so summoner doesn’t take as big a hit. Spider Fang yield from spiders should also be increased so the spider grinding is faster.

This would also help make Summoner less ‘distant’ from the other classes, as you would go through generally the same progression in early Hardmode.

(and I just think grinding spiders for 15 minutes is lame and adding the ore requirement would mix it up a bit)

Of course, this was a random thought and not at all a big deal, so take this with a grain of salt.
I actually really like being able to make spider gear at an iron anvil, even if I'm not maining a summoner I always go to the spider den so I can get a spider friend to help me out with the rough early hardmode.

Pure summoners still have plenty a reson to get the hardmode anvils though becuase... hallowed gear needs it, and the hallowed set involves the best defensive summon armor in the game and the 2nd best whip in the game.
 
The issue with Ninja and Pumpkin are of defense rather than just of damage, and imo Ninja’s offensive boost is negligible anyway. By the time both come in to play, you’d have access to plentiful Silver or Tungsten at least. Frost is somewhat underwhelming as well. I think all of these could do being a bit stronger.

The Crimson Armor I can agree with though, not because of the damage which is also negligible but because of the defense and regen. It’s fine as is.

Also my note about spider armor was more about giving Summoner the same early hardmode progression as the other classes. Maybe a fair compromise would be keeping the staff as is and making Spider Armor Cobalt/Palladium, then it doesn’t require a Mythril Anvil and Summoner has some form of ore obtaining preboss, as well as giving Cobalt/Palladium more relevance.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
The issue with Ninja and Pumpkin are of defense rather than just of damage, and imo Ninja’s offensive boost is negligible anyway. By the time both come in to play, you’d have access to plentiful Silver or Tungsten at least. Frost is somewhat underwhelming as well. I think all of these could do being a bit stronger.

The Crimson Armor I can agree with though, not because of the damage which is also negligible but because of the defense and regen. It’s fine as is.

Also my note about spider armor was more about giving Summoner the same early hardmode progression as the other classes. Maybe a fair compromise would be keeping the staff as is and making Spider Armor Cobalt/Palladium, then it doesn’t require a Mythril Anvil and Summoner has some form of ore obtaining preboss, as well as giving Cobalt/Palladium more relevance.
Frost isn't classless it's melee and ranger only literally the worst two classes to combo with each other.

Also I find that you can kill 2 king slimes faster than you can get a set or silver+ armor.
 
Frost isn't classless it's melee and ranger only literally the worst two classes to combo with each other.
Right, but that’s multiclass as my other post stated, and it is still underwhelming.

I personally need a bit more time to get set for King Slime and usually kill the Eye first, but I guess it could be a sidegrade. I don’t think 6% crit is enough of an effect to make it worth grinding out particularly, but of course I guess early game armors don’t matter that much.

I still stand my point that generalist armors can’t really fit summoner, which was what my main point was.
 

Ilmarinen

Terrarian
Meteor Armor is in a really good spot right now anyway, it definitely doesn't need a buff.
I agree. Some of the meteor equipment on the other hand certainly could stand a buff of some kind. Specifically the swords. They need something, I'm not sure what but something. It wouldn't have hurt if meteorite had gotten two or three pieces of other equipment as well.
Now meteorite the biome absolutely needed a buff.
Meteor Biome.png
 

BadPiggy1024

Skeletron
How about enabling Endless Musket Pouch&Quiver to be used as infinite musket balls&wooden arrows in crafting recipes? So we don't need to buy extra ammos from NPCs for crafting
 

Ilmarinen

Terrarian
How about enabling Endless Musket Pouch&Quiver to be used as infinite musket balls&wooden arrows in crafting recipes? So we don't need to buy extra ammos from NPCs for crafting
The price of arrows and shot compared to how much money one usually has lying around, especially once hardmode rolls around, is so completely trivial that it's really not worth the trouble of changing it I feel.
 
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