Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[CellarDoor96]

If I may ask, why on earth do so many minions from 1.4.0 and 1.4.1 use the Deadly Sphere Staff sound effect? Even the lowly Finch? Before 1.4.0, it was pretty clear that this sound was the unique sound of that Deadly Sphere Staff.

The default summon staff sound has always been Item_44, traditionally – even the Stardust staves, endgame-level staves, use it. But for some reason, most 1.4.0 minions use another minion's unique sound.

I know I sound completely pedantic, I just am not sure why these changes aren't regarded as worth making, when it seems to me like an obvious inconsistency of theme. After all, issues like particles not appearing on Crimsand have been resolved; this doesn't seem to me like something beneath notice.

I mean tbh nothing about the sound really screams "Deadly Sphere" to me, so I'm not sure it's an issue. Out of all the summons that use it, the Finch Staff is the only one that I think it maybe doesn't suit, though I can't really describe why. Even then I'm not sure it's worth changing.

 

[SsIras]

I wouldn't expect to see changes made here.

You mean no nerfs to Hallowed Armor AND no further buffs to Chlorophye? I actually think chlorophyte is in a good spot rn, but I would actually just stick with hallowed in most playthrougs since it is basically a free armor set and has defensive abilities that rival post moon lord sets.
Chlorophye is a solid build, but it's too expensive to be worth the time of an experienced player when you're comparinng it with hallowed.
So yeah, I still favor a nerf to holy protection, but I think it is fine either way.

 

[JohannSimm]

I mean tbh nothing about the sound really screams "Deadly Sphere" to me, so I'm not sure it's an issue. Out of all the summons that use it, the Finch Staff is the only one that I think it maybe doesn't suit, though I can't really describe why. Even then I'm not sure it's worth changing.

When it was introduced, I'm pretty sure it was the only summon staff that sound was used for. Somehow it got added to most of the new ones in 1.4.0. To me, it sounds quite specifically technological or arcane. It doesn't suit summons that are just simple creatures, like the Finch or Flinx. It's better suited to endgame staves like the Stardust Dragon, Stardust Cell, and Terraprisma. (Stardust Dragon and Stardust Cell still currently just use the basic sound effect.)

For comparison:
Item_44 (used by Slime, Vampire Frog*, Pirate, Pygmy, Raven, Tempest, Xeno, Stardust Cell, Stardust Dragon)
Item_113 (used by Finch*, Flinx*, Blade*, Sanguine*, Desert Tiger*, Deadly Sphere, Terraprisma*)
Item_76 (Hornet)
Item_77 (Imp)
Item_82 (Optic)
Item_83 (Spider)
*Items added in 1.4.0 and 1.4.1

My proposed redistribution:
Item_44 (Finch, Slime, Flinx, Vampire Frog, Pirate, Pygmy, Raven)
Item_113 (Deadly Sphere, Stardust Cell, Stardust Dragon, Terraprisma)
Item_76 (Hornet)
Item_77 (Imp, Blade, Desert Tiger, Tempest)
Item_82 (Optic, Xeno)
Item_83 (Spider, Sanguine)

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

You mean no nerfs to Hallowed Armor AND no further buffs to Chlorophye? I actually think chlorophyte is in a good spot rn, but I would actually just stick with hallowed in most playthrougs since it is basically a free armor set and has defensive abilities that rival post moon lord sets.
Chlorophye is a solid build, but it's too expensive to be worth the time of an experienced player when you're comparinng it with hallowed.
So yeah, I still favor a nerf to holy protection, but I think it is fine either way.

I already said this, but I disagree with Hallowed being nerfed.

-1.4.1 buffed pretty much every pre-Mech armor set. Hallowed is still better than them, but if you tank it too far it no longer deserves to be a tier higher.

-Chlorophyte Armor is already a good strength compared to Hallowed aside from material costs, nerfing Hallowed disrupts this.

-Nerfing Hallowed Armor doesn’t do anything to encourage players to make Chlorophyte, as the core issue with Chlorophyte is not its stats, but its cost. Chlorophyte Armor is pretty potent if you do decide to tank the cost and craft it.

Nerfing Hallowed stats and buffing Chlorophyte stats does nothing to remedy this core issue, all it does is make Hallowed slightly less viable and Chlorophyte slightly too strong.

 

[JohannSimm]

I wouldn't expect to see changes made here.

Also, in regards to the crafting recipes for Plaguebringer and Timeless Traveller: As you said earlier in this thread, one of the core considerations was that all the contest-winning vanities should be readily available pre-Hardmode. But the current recipes for these two vanities lock you out of one of them until you create an artificial evil biome – a major hoop to jump through in pre-Hardmode just for a vanity. This seems to me run to counter to the spirit of the vanities being meant to be readily available pre-Hardmode. You should be able to choose which one you craft without being limited by the world's evil biome. It also makes no sense that the Plaguebringer set should be associated with the Crimson when it has what are clearly cursed flames emerging from it – the Wiki even remarks on this.

I don't think my proposal would be a difficult change to implement, nor a particularly problematic one, and I hope you'll at least consider it for the list of proposals. I apologize for being a pedant; I just want to help improve the game in any way I can.

Also, thank you for looking at my further suggestions for enemy immunities.

 

[SsIras]

I already said this, but I disagree with Hallowed being nerfed.

-1.4.1 buffed pretty much every pre-Mech armor set. Hallowed is still better than them, but if you tank it too far it no longer deserves to be a tier higher.

-Chlorophyte Armor is already a good strength compared to Hallowed aside from material costs, nerfing Hallowed disrupts this.

-Nerfing Hallowed Armor doesn’t do anything to encourage players to make Chlorophyte, as the core issue with Chlorophyte is not its stats, but its cost. Chlorophyte Armor is pretty potent if you do decide to tank the cost and craft it.

Nerfing Hallowed stats and buffing Chlorophyte stats does nothing to remedy this core issue, all it does is make Hallowed slightly less viable and Chlorophyte slightly too strong.

I already said this, but I disagree with Hallowed being nerfed.

-1.4.1 buffed pretty much every pre-Mech armor set. Hallowed is still better than them, but if you tank it too far it no longer deserves to be a tier higher.

-Chlorophyte Armor is already a good strength compared to Hallowed aside from material costs, nerfing Hallowed disrupts this.

-Nerfing Hallowed Armor doesn’t do anything to encourage players to make Chlorophyte, as the core issue with Chlorophyte is not its stats, but its cost. Chlorophyte Armor is pretty potent if you do decide to tank the cost and craft it.

Nerfing Hallowed stats and buffing Chlorophyte stats does nothing to remedy this core issue, all it does is make Hallowed slightly less viable and Chlorophyte slightly too strong.

To be honest, I think I agree now, if you consider both to be on the same tier, there's plenty of arguments to say Chlorophyte is a better set overall.

Chlorophyte offers less damage stats than Adamantite and Hallowed, and it is tied with Titanium, but makes up for it with the surprisingly powerful leaf crystal ability.
Again, for the labor you did have to get it, maybe it should be a little better than the other sets you get before it.

So I maybe instead of nerfing Hallowed, we could buff leaf crystal a little more?
I'm still not sure about that though.

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

To be honest, I think I agree now, if you consider both to be on the same tier, there's plenty of arguments to say Chlorophyte is a better set overall.

Chlorophyte offers less damage stats than Adamantite and Hallowed, and it is tied with Titanium, but makes up for it with the surprisingly powerful leaf crystal ability.
Again, for the labor you did have to get it, maybe it should be a little better than the other sets you get before it.

So I maybe instead of nerfing Hallowed, we could buff leaf crystal a little more?
I'm still not sure about that though.

Even then, does it need a buff at all? I mean, being excessively powerful doesn’t fix the high cost. To be fair, Vampire Knives and Rod of Discord are some of the grindiest, most time consuming unlocks in the entire game, and have the power to make up for it. Chlorophyte is a bit of a tank since it makes it harder to make the next tier of armors, but it’s already good and costwise is nowhere near enough to warrant it being busted.

If anyone else doesn’t believe me that it’s good, let’s look at Leaf Crystal. 100 odd damage a hit, 40 (0.66 second) fire rate. Two separate volleys as long as you’re attacking constantly. That’s a FLAT 300 DPS to whatever you’re running.

Chlorophyte’s “buff” if it has any should come in making it less expensive somehow.

Plus we don’t want Chlorophyte to outclass the tiers above it.

 

[SsIras]

If the devs were to nerf Chlorophyte, it should be in the bonuses of the pieces themselves and not leaf crystal.

Let’s look at the crystal. It hits for 100 odd damage a strike, depending on defense. It has a fire rate of 40, or 0.66 seconds. This gives the leaf 150 effective DPS.

BUT, the leaf has a second attack that occurs whenever an enemy takes damage (which should be always, in combat). This second volley follows the same stats and has the same minimum fire rate as the first, adding another 150 DPS.

Chlorophyte’s Leaf Crystal is a *flat* 300 DPS to add to whatever else you’re running. For this reason, I have no idea why anyone thinks it’s not a good set bonus - if you do ever make it, use it on Plantera. You’ll see the difference. The Leaf Crystal doesn’t need homing, or lifesteal, or anything else.

If Chlorophyte had a buff, it should be in the form of the armor itself and not the leaf. Just wanted to say that. (Also wanted an excuse to tell people to stop ting on the Leaf Crystal, but ssh)

Well, I'm not denying its power, but holy protection is perhaps the strongest set bonus in the game as of now (yeah, I did say even stronger than obsidian armor), Hallowed Armor has some other problems, it is weaker than Adamantite stat-wise, but this doesn't matter for the buff you're getting.
Thing is, Hallowed Armor strong set bonus is probably a good thing for late game balance, because it is technically an armor set that you would throw away very quickly if it wasn't for holy protection, but can be useful at any point of the game because of it, so I actually like its current state.
The problem is that the armor set obtainable immediately after it is VERY expensive and it ISN'T useful at any point of the game.
Balance-wise, I think the best correction for that would be switching places between Chlorophyte and Hallowed armor, you have to mine for Hallowed and you get Chloro after defeating the bosses, that way you get a strong armor set for killing bosses and you have the option to get one that is useful for the rest of the game for working an additional amount. Obviously it is not possible to make that change now, but point stands that the armor usefulness is kinda reversed, and that's where the idea of rebalancing them came from.

With that said, I think we talked enough about that and I agree both armors are in a good spot.

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

With that said, I think we talked enough about that and I agree both armors are in a good spot.

I agree.

I think the most reasonable change to Chlorophyte is making the bars cost less ore, since Chlorophyte Bars craft so many items, but even that’s probably unlikely so I’m not gonna press it

 

[SsIras]

Why not just nerf chloro bullets crafting along with it tho?

 

[CellarDoor96]

Even more? They already been nerfed.

He said "crafting," meaning the recipe. I already suggested it myself that the Chlorophyte bar to bullet conversion rate be nerfed, if it was a concern after the Chlorophyte bar recipe were changed.

E.g.:
6->5 Chloro ore = 1 Chloro bar
70->60 Musket Balls + 1 Chloro bar = 70->60 Chloro bullets

 

[Lythael]

He said "crafting," meaning the recipe. I already suggested it myself that the Chlorophyte bar to bullet conversion rate be nerfed, if it was a concern after the Chlorophyte bar recipe were changed.

E.g.:
6->5 Chloro ore = 1 Chloro bar
70->60 Musket Balls + 1 Chloro bar = 70->60 Chloro bullets

Ah whoops noticed that too late.
My bad for misreading

 

[Adventurer32]

I'm not really of the opinion that Obsidian Rose is altogether that rare. Imps are common pests that you will fight constantly in the Underworld.

I'm farming for the obsidian rose currently and have already spent ages on it. Can confirm imps are way rarer when you actually want them. I think it'd be nice to have it's drop rate increased slightly, maybe to 1/40?

 

[JohannSimm]

Balance-wise, I think the best correction for that would be switching places between Chlorophyte and Hallowed armor, you have to mine for Hallowed and you get Chloro after defeating the bosses, that way you get a strong armor set for killing bosses and you have the option to get one that is useful for the rest of the game for working an additional amount. Obviously it is not possible to make that change now, but point stands that the armor usefulness is kinda reversed, and that's where the idea of rebalancing them came from.

Better change: Hallowed set bonus provides a Holy Crystal. Chlorophyte set bonus provides “Spatial Shifting”. It’s never going to happen, but that’s how I’d do it.

 

[Ilmarinen]

What are people's thoughts about allowing Hellfire Treads to be used as an alternative for Lava Waders as a Terraspark Boots tinker?

The flame trail would NOT carry over to Terraspark Boots, and you would not be able to recoup the Flame Waker Boots out of the deal. But it would allow people to craft Hellfire Treads and then later upgrade to Terraspark Boots if they so desire.

I'm 100% sure people will later point out that "then the flames should carry over" and/or "but what about the Flame Waker Boots that were lost", but that would just have to be one of those inconsistencies that have to be overlooked for this change to be made.

This hasn't been approved/denied yet, I'm just floating the idea for feedback here . . . I know full well its the kind of change that might induce an "inconsistency itch" that will bother people more than the current issue, so I want to get a feel for it.

That's probably the most reasonable way to go about it.

I mean, we could do it. But Shroomite is a sticking point, IMO. If it can't be done cleanly with Shroomite, then its not going to be done on any of them.

What about being able to craft chlorophyte armor pieces into the requisite number of shroomite/spectre bars when combined with mushrooms/ectoplasm?

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

To get back on topic for 1.4.1 specific content, I have a few more specific suggestions. These are (mostly) things I wanted to say that other people haven’t suggested yet. This is kind of just to get my last suggestions out, and beyond this I don’t really have much more to say for balance that stays relevant to 1.4.1.

-I’m currently in the Underground Jungle tier, and this is really making me angry, so rant warning. Jungle Creepers are a fair and enjoyable encounter for mid level players in the Underground Jungle. They are easy to see in the green and brown Jungle, have a fair amount of health for their tier, and have a perfectly set quantity of damage for a frequently spawning pre Plantera enemy. Their web spit attack is completely fair when you’re surrounded by high damage sniper enemies and their venom debuff is not too potent at all when compared to their damage.

Okay, enough being pedantic. I get why they were buffed. Underwhelming filler enemy that had no reason to exist. But the buffs were too heavy, and where they are now, they can be tacked on as yet another problematic enemy for Jungle explorers. I kind of shut up about them earlier, but now that I actually am far enough in to have to deal with them, they really suck. I suggest either cutting out their web spit attack and letting them just be heavy melee damage, or nerfing their health and damage.

Apologies for being rude about it, but please ask about nerfing them somewhat.

-Leather Whip could use a price nerf. The bestiary progress being cut back is very helpful, I can’t express how helpful that was, but 15 gold is a heavy price for early game weapons, especially ones that have as big of a role as they do. Ask about cutting the price down to, maybe, 5 gold. If that’s too radical, than 7 gold 50 or 10 gold would be fair as well.

-On the topic of whips, Obsidian Armor. We’ve talked about it plenty of times here already, but I have more to say about it. It seems to pretty consistently deal a third more DPS than other molten tier gear, with minion focus in a build. The numbers I found way back in the thread match this, and I’m sure other people who abused the set can confirm. That in mind, I think an effective 25% DPS nerf on Obsidian Armor is a fair deal. That would cut it down to a fair DPS quantity, dealing slightly more damage than other builds and having some form of piercing built in, while also having the lowest defense and a limited effective range. I would change the set bonus from:
-50% whip range and speed, 25% summon damage, to:
-50% whip range, 35% whip speed and 15% summon damage.
This amount would have a significant impact on whip speed, going from half faster to a third faster, and would nerf the summon damage by an amount that keeps minions from outpreforming Bee while not keeping them too underpreforming.
The nerfs on whip damage and speed are of course interchangeable, but a nerf in the margin of 20-25% is a fair bargain in my opinion.

-Completely off topic, but I’m talking about whips anyway so I thought I’d mention it. Would it be possible to reduce the volume of whips? The sound they make is amusing and I love it but it can get pretty jarring when you’re running a whip constantly.

-Would it be possible to give Super Star Shooter a 50% ammo conservation buff? There was a bug report about SSS missing shots to piercing, and the fact that it is balanced around this is understandable but it also takes a toll on its already scarce ammo economy. I’d get why not, though, since being incredibly inefficient is kind of its gimmick.

-I think Thorn Chackram and Flamarang could use slightly further buffs. Both of them are technically tiered after Worms, but are still outpreformed by the flails of their tier. Chackram could do fine with a damage and speed up imo. As for Flamarang, this is more radical, but I’m gonna suggest piercing for it. It would give Melee a more efficient weapon to use versus the Wall, in conjuction with Sunfury for less DPS from more range.

-Lastly, I’m wondering if Scutlix could get more mobility. A double jump specifically could help, considering Basilisk and Unicorn have said ability and have similar speed (although much lower accelaration) to it. That’s a pretty big change with some AI limitations however, so jump height and horizontal speed in a vaccum is also good.

I think that’s all. Looking through the 1.4.1 balance changelog and there’s really nothing else I can fairly say, that hasn’t already been discussed, without being incredibly nitpicky or becoming irrelevant to 1.4s changes.

Also, I feel like I have to say it again, but thank you for working so hard to listen to our balance suggestions and doing what you can to work with people’s opinions. I can tell like it really does seem like we’re nitpicking and shooting down your changes, and some of the stuff we suggest is sometimes either stupid or unrealistic. I’m guilty of this too, not trying to shame anyone here. Anyway, thank you for bearing with our suggestions and working so hard to implement as many as you can.

 

[NeoPhantom]

As someone who LOVES the Scutlix and farms for it in every playthrough, I dont think Scutlix should get a double jump actually. Its single jump is higher than the single jump of the unicorn and it has instant max speed even when turning around on top of an automatic ranged attack. He aint meant for aereal combat after all, mostly invasion support and land movement (though that in itself is problematic as theres only the Celestial Pillars after the aliens, still a fine option during the Old One’s Army to quickly get from one portal to the other to gather crystals and set sentries)

(I would love an increased drop rate though... took me over 30 alien invasions and 25 Scutlix Gunner Banners for the last one. RNG)

 

[Mail]

Its basically an exploit. That's kinda how exploits tend to be. Except its an ugly one that applies to a lot of weapons in the game, and as you say, isn't one that can be fixed. And I don't think making sledgehammer fixes to just Nimbus Rod is needed to avoid it.

It isn't at all difficult to fix, only slightly tedious to make the change. Base crit rate can be copied to the projectile in the same way that base damage is. If it wasn't possible to copy base crit to projectiles then wouldn't have been possible to copy base damage to them either. Adding one field to projectiles won't have any noticeable impact on performance. If your available programmer time is extremely low it makes sense to not fix a low priority bug like this, but I don't think it is fair to say it can't be fixed.

 

[Ilmarinen]

Well if being able to craft chlorophyte armor into spectre and shroomite is a no go then at least allow it for turtle since you can already make both sets of armor at the same time anyway and turtle armor is already upgradeable directly into another set of armor so there's already a precedent for that crafting tree. Just remove the current recipe for turtle armor and replace it with chlorophyte piece + turtle shell.

A completely separate issue is that chlorophyte might need a rework of some kind to differentiate it since it is craftable at nearly the same moment in the game that you can craft dedicated melee, ranged, or magic armor. I don't know what to do about these though

.
Edit: Maybe chlorophyte should just be a pure melee armor with a leaf crystal bonus, regardless of which helmet you wear, and the different helmets change how the leaf crystal works. One helmet could make the crystal function as it does now and the other two each do something different.

 

[MyName]

-Would it be possible to give Super Star Shooter a 50% ammo conservation buff? There was a bug report about SSS missing shots to piercing, and the fact that it is balanced around this is understandable but it also takes a toll on its already scarce ammo economy. I’d get why not, though, since being incredibly inefficient is kind of its gimmick.

Why not reduce it's shooting speed by 50% instead? Considering that every 2nd star is useless in terms of not dealing any damage at all, you'll just stop wasting every 2nd star.
Reducing its shooting speed by less than 50% could also increase its damage, depending on the situation.