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Journey's End 1.4: Official Item Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

CellarDoor96

Terrarian
i feel like since the amount of players this change would affect is so miniscule, and all it does is remove convenience for those players, i don't think it's worth doing.

i feel like it's safe to say that the majority of players who get significant usage out of the grand design either do a bunch of funky fun stuff with wiring, or they use it to set up teleporters in hardmode, post-mechs. the latter group, which i can only assume is larger, is unaffected. meanwhile the first group is just inconvenienced and annoyed.

besides, the individual wrenches are still useful when you're tight on cash. i know it's not common for a lot of players to be unable to afford just a bit over 12 gold, but it happens. especially on classic mode, where money isn't rolling in as much. i just don't see a good point to this.
The point is good, or at least better, game design. Convenience is supposed to scale with progress, that's the definition of progression. That way it's more rewarding when you get it.

That said, you're right that wiring only really comes into its own for most people once you get the Steampunker, which I suppose is the bigger issue. Most people only find themselves actually wanting to do wiring stuff once they get her and by then it's super easy to just buy everything you need for the Grand Design. No real way to fix that and even if you could, it'd probably take more effort than it's worth for something so minor. I guess it's fine the way it is.

I do still want something to be done with the Ruler, though, since it feels out of place among the Grand Design's ingredients. Either replacing it in the recipe, or giving it an extra functionality that at least has something to do with the Grand Design. Giving it the ability to draw a block ruler anywhere on the screen would work perfectly since it mimics the Grand Design's ability to draw wires anywhere on the screen, which is also the Grand Design's only functionality that it currently doesn't inherit from any of its ingredients. May not be possible at this point though.
 

MasterworkStone

Duke Fishron
I do still want something to be done with the Ruler, though, since it feels out of place among the Grand Design's ingredients. Either replacing it in the recipe, or giving it an extra functionality that at least has something to do with the Grand Design. Giving it the ability to draw a block ruler anywhere on the screen would work perfectly since it mimics the Grand Design's ability to draw wires anywhere on the screen, which is also the Grand Design's only functionality that it currently doesn't inherit from any of its ingredients. May not be possible at this point though.
Unfortunately new functionality like that is beyond Leinfors' capabilities, however Star Breaker's idea might be more plausible because it involves existing mechanics, but still it comes down to Leinfors being able to add it alone.
Grand Design
Replace the Ruler from its recipe with the Mechanical Ruler. You have the Ruler option by default now. This way we're integrating the Mechanical Ruler into the Grand Design, with the simple goal to have all the mechanical displays and toggles into a single item.
 

amaniku

Terrarian
It's always seemed like the Leaf Wings are meant to form a matched set with the Tiki armor (see also Bohrokki's Tenth Anniversary art), and yet their place in progression doesn't quite line up. This is unlike the other matching wings in late Hardmode (Beetle, Spectre, Hoverboard), which each become available simultaneously with their corresponding armor.

The simplest solution would be to move the Leaf Wings to post-Plantera, with equivalent stats for that tier. Alternatively, there could be zero functional impact by just reshuffling the purchasable wings:

Jetpack (taking the stats of Leaf Wings)
Sold for 75 gold by Mechanic in Hardmode at night

Steampunk Wings (taking the stats of Jetpack, incl. boost)
Sold for 40 gold by Steampunker as soon as she arrives

Leaf Wings (taking the stats of Steampunk Wings)
Sold for 3 platinum by Witch Doctor post-Golem
 

Dr. Flavin

Skeletron
Probably too late to add anything new, but letting poison darts pierce once could be nice for for the Blowgun, since it would make it more useful against Wall of Flesh, skeletron, OOA, etc. and dart weapons don't fire fast enough to make piercing a problem.
That's a really good idea, poison darts do feel a tad underwhelming, don't feel discouraged about posting any of your ideas. If you can think of something, go ahead and talk about it!

Speaking of ammo, that gives me some ideas...

Ideas:​

Suggested Change(s):
Increase damage from 12 to 13
Remove worm tooth from crafting recipe, now requires one Demonite or Crimtane bar, recipe now requires 200 Wooden Arrows and produces 200 Unholy Arrows, up from 5

- I bet you didn't even know these were even craftable eh? Turns out they are, and the recipe is really bad. And also corruption exclusive for some reason?
It gives five arrows per worm tooth, c'mon man. This recipe must've been completely lost to time. As for the arrow itself it's just kinda weaker than Jester, a small buff couldn't hurt.

Suggested Change(s):
Reduce damage from 16 to 11
Recipe now produces 300 Chlorophyte Arrows, up from 150
Can now bounce off of enemies once

- Chlorophyte Arrows are better than they where, but still are just kinda too expensive, Nano Bullets serve as budget Chlorophyte Bullets better due to how cheap they are.
This would go twofold in making them less prohibitively expensive and more useful when compared to heavy hitters like Holy Arrows.

Suggested Change(s):
Venom Arrows:

Increase damage from 19 to 26
Venom Bullets:
Increase damage from 15 to 24

- Making venom flasks post-Plantera didn't really make these already subpar ammo types any better, venom buffs didn't help them much when so many other ammo types have more flashy and useful effects than a flat fifty damage a second. Making them have the highest base damage of all ammo types by a moderate margin would at least give them some merit.

Suggested Change(s):
Cursed Arrows:

Increase damage from 17 to 23
Cursed Bullets:
Increase damage from 12 to 19

- What I said for Venom Basically applies to Cursed as well, the flat damage just doesn't cut it. They'll still fall behind other options like Crystal Bullets and Holy Arrows even with the buffs, but at least they'll still be an option with upsides, sorta?

Suggested Change(s):
Reduce damage from 15 to 10
Increase max bounces from 1 to 4
Can now bounce off of enemies once

- This isn't super necessary, but making them work like my proposed Chlorophyte Arrows change would be kinda cool, more viable and unique ammo types are always nice.

Suggested Change(s):
Now causes an increased chance to drop items on death when applied to an enemy, similar to about +0.2 in luck

- This one is admittedly a silly idea, and likely beyond the scope of this update, but I think this would be a nice. Giving more power to Golden Bullets and Midas Flasks than just making gold farming more effective.
 
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The Star Breaker

Steampunker
A few random ideas. Admittedly i don't have much experience with the items in the first suggestion, so other people might be more suitable to come up with better ideas for them.

Bone Helm, Bone Glove
I feel they're slightly lacking compared to the rest of the pre-HM Expert Mode accessories. The issue might be that they get less useful in Master mode compared to the rest of the accessories, since everything gets more HP but these deal the same damage.
Increase their damage by 5 in Master Mode only

Increase the stacks of common materials/consumables from 99 to 999
There are many materials out there that i often get multiple stacks of, when there isn't really a point in them stacking to just 99. They just end up eating extra inventory and chest slots.
These are the most common offenders: Mushrooms, Stingers, Jungle Spores, Vertabrae, Rotten Chunk, Pixie Dust, Ichor/Cursed Flames, Spider Fang, Ectoplasm, Beetle Husk, All Bombs (including Wet Bombs, Scarab Bombs, Grenades and Dynamite), Solar Tablet Fragments.

Traveling Merchant reminder
Don't know how necessary this change is. Often times when the Travelling Merchant arrives i'm in the middle of spelunking, farming or doing something else. Only for the end of the day to come and see him depart, when i would've talked with him if i hadn't forgotten.
Add a reminder in the middle of the day that the Traveling Merchant is doing business with X NPC that he's nearby with, or that he's waiting for you or something.

Idea List Version 2: Featuring New items!*​

I agree that quite a few of these can be buffed. There are some things I don't really agree with, like giving so many weapons autoswing, some changes aren't really needed or barely improve the damage, and some weapons need more than just a stat change. But yes, most of these need some kind of improvement.

The Queen Spider Staff is really strong. I honestly think people just underuse this weapon, they see the base damage on it and don't even try it. J Bame mentioned this already, you get it crazy early in hardmode, and it hits like a truck - you get damage from the intial egg projectile, the multiple baby spiders tha spawn from it and to top it all off it deals the venom debuff (when you usually get access to venom post-plantera). There are the issues you mentioned, the short range and the gimmicky nature of sentries. The short range isn't that much of a problem, neither are the missed egg shots, since the baby spiders deal most of the damage, and they spread out and home in on enemies - in this sense it has the best accuracy out of all shooting sentries. On the other hand I agree that an instant attack on summon will be very useful.

Houndius Shootius
An instant attack will be great here too. Besides that, I think the issue with this weapon isn't the damage, but the accuracy. It's common for this weapon to miss against bats, demons, hornets, and even slime when they're jumping. I think it's best for it to home in on enemies very slightly, nothing crazy like the chlorophyte bullets, just let it turn slightly so it can hit flying enemies more often.
I think the same can be said about the staff of the Staff of the Frost Hydra, but i haven't used it much lately, but if someone who has used it recently reads this, can you reply with your opinion on it?

Sniper Rifle
To be honest i don't really know what's the use of the Sniper outside of using it for fun and in PVP, it's not really practical - it's not exactly good to fight bosses with, and it isn't made for crowds of enemies. It's good for killing singular enemies i guess, but at that point of progression that's not an issue i think, unless you're fighting problematic enemies that need to be dealt with quickly, like the Alien Queen, Flow Invaders, Casters in the HM Dungeon etc. I think if the Sniper specialzies in one shoting these guys it would give it a specific use.
This idea isn't in the game to my knowledge and i do not know how hard it is to code in, but what if critical hits from the sniper dealt 2.5 times the damage instead of 2 times the damage? This way it can one shot even more enemies, i think.
Autofire on this would actually make it useful against bosses, giving it another use outside of singular enemies and PVP.

Speaking about autofire on ranged weapons, I might be in the minority here, but i actually find it fun to spam click on handgun type weapons. But I do see how it can get annoying.
Eitherway, another idea i'll throw in is making the Rifle Scope give ranged weapons autofire. Admittedly it's post-Plantera, the only weapons to benefit from this change is the Sniper Rifle, Tactical Shotgun and Venus Magnum, but i don't think it will make any of them busted, it just buffs their general viablility.


Gravity Globe
You get inifinite flight from the Soaring Insignia already, and this item fulfills a similar function although slightly worse. As it's now it's like another "Trophy" item for beating the game, and besides, you already get the Celestial Starboard from Moon Lord ever since 1.4.
What if we move this to be a Lunatic Cultist Expert mode drop? The Cultist will finally drop something in expert mode, and it offers an alternative to the Soaring Insignia, although quite a bit different. I do not know how many people will actually go for it over the Insignia outside of speedrunners maybe, but it offers more build variety which i think is good.
 

DeDZahar

Terrarian
Dude on previous page (sorry man I dunno how to reply without copying all of message) noticed that soaring insinia is a bit overpowered by providing that amount of boosts and bonuses. SO let's move it to daytime defeating reward... (just kidding)(just kidding(I'm not kidding))
 

Dr. Flavin

Skeletron
I agree that quite a few of these can be buffed. There are some things I don't really agree with, like giving so many weapons autoswing, some changes aren't really needed or barely improve the damage, and some weapons need more than just a stat change. But yes, most of these need some kind of improvement.

The Queen Spider Staff is really strong. I honestly think people just underuse this weapon, they see the base damage on it and don't even try it. J Bame mentioned this already, you get it crazy early in hardmode, and it hits like a truck - you get damage from the intial egg projectile, the multiple baby spiders tha spawn from it and to top it all off it deals the venom debuff (when you usually get access to venom post-plantera). There are the issues you mentioned, the short range and the gimmicky nature of sentries. The short range isn't that much of a problem, neither are the missed egg shots, since the baby spiders deal most of the damage, and they spread out and home in on enemies - in this sense it has the best accuracy out of all shooting sentries. On the other hand I agree that an instant attack on summon will be very useful.

Houndius Shootius
An instant attack will be great here too. Besides that, I think the issue with this weapon isn't the damage, but the accuracy. It's common for this weapon to miss against bats, demons, hornets, and even slime when they're jumping. I think it's best for it to home in on enemies very slightly, nothing crazy like the chlorophyte bullets, just let it turn slightly so it can hit flying enemies more often.
I think the same can be said about the staff of the Staff of the Frost Hydra, but i haven't used it much lately, but if someone who has used it recently reads this, can you reply with your opinion on it?

Sniper Rifle
To be honest i don't really know what's the use of the Sniper outside of using it for fun and in PVP, it's not really practical - it's not exactly good to fight bosses with, and it isn't made for crowds of enemies. It's good for killing singular enemies i guess, but at that point of progression that's not an issue i think, unless you're fighting problematic enemies that need to be dealt with quickly, like the Alien Queen, Flow Invaders, Casters in the HM Dungeon etc. I think if the Sniper specialzies in one shoting these guys it would give it a specific use.
This idea isn't in the game to my knowledge and i do not know how hard it is to code in, but what if critical hits from the sniper dealt 2.5 times the damage instead of 2 times the damage? This way it can one shot even more enemies, i think.
Autofire on this would actually make it useful against bosses, giving it another use outside of singular enemies and PVP.

Speaking about autofire on ranged weapons, I might be in the minority here, but i actually find it fun to spam click on handgun type weapons. But I do see how it can get annoying.
Eitherway, another idea i'll throw in is making the Rifle Scope give ranged weapons autofire. Admittedly it's post-Plantera, the only weapons to benefit from this change is the Sniper Rifle, Tactical Shotgun and Venus Magnum, but i don't think it will make any of them busted, it just buffs their general viablility.

Gravity Globe
You get inifinite flight from the Soaring Insignia already, and this item fulfills a similar function although slightly worse. As it's now it's like another "Trophy" item for beating the game, and besides, you already get the Celestial Starboard from Moon Lord ever since 1.4.
What if we move this to be a Lunatic Cultist Expert mode drop? The Cultist will finally drop something in expert mode, and it offers an alternative to the Soaring Insignia, although quite a bit different. I do not know how many people will actually go for it over the Insignia outside of speedrunners maybe, but it offers more build variety which i think is good.
These are good points, suppose I'll elaborate.
Houdius is mostly fine, just thought I'd buff the damage a bit so it could keep up with Flameburst Rod since that has AOE too.
You make a good point about accuracy, buffing the velocity by a bit more would help a lot.

Frost Hydra is okay from when I've used it, pierces two enemies and the projectiles are decently fast, bit weaker than the tier three ballista though.

I know Spider Queen does like 3x26, at least supposedly? I've never seen the egg deal damage, I've only ever seen it do two hits. The babies kinda just hover along the ground, which is better than nothing but really only helps for grounded trash mobs, it fires like once a second, which is okay I guess.
Honestly, I just don't really bother with it, I summon the thing and just forget about it, hovering around the tower's tiny effective range just never feels worth it to me,
maybe some other people out there could share their experience with this weapon? I'm surprised it has a following. I always thought everyone just forgot about it.

My hands start to hurt when I start spam clicking, but to each their own.
Mobile already has autoswing on all weapons anyways, and if you really wanted it on desktop you could just use a macro or a plugin or somethin'.

Sniper scope change won't do much of anything, Venus Magnum's the only one it would really be helpful for, Sniper Rifle is slow enough where a few lost frames per attack
don't mean too much. Tactical Shotgun already has autofire, actually.

The Sniper rifle can deal like 600 damage a hit if you min max it, it can be good. But it's mostly a gimmick, higher crit damage might be too much honestly.
It could probably use a bigger buff than I gave it though.

Gravity Globe change is a pretty good idea!
 
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MrD108

Official Terrarian
I really regret removing the mechanics where one spider only had 3/4 slots per creature, can this be restored?
This provided a cool and unique feature for the weapon.
 

Dr. Flavin

Skeletron
I really regret removing the mechanics where one spider only had 3/4 slots per creature, can this be restored?
This provided a cool and unique feature for the weapon.
Spiders are a weird minion.
They are extremely good at staying on the target with walls, and really bad at it without walls.
But their strangest feature is how incredibly aggressive the immunity frames are on them, with only three spiders you max out on it's single target damage potential.
Always thought that was a strange nerf though, I guess it makes more sense looking at it now, maybe?
 

Mathbrush1

Terrarian
About Queen Spider Staff earlier:


I know Spider Queen does like 3x26, at least supposedly? I've never seen the egg deal damage, I've only ever seen it do two hits. The babies kinda just hover along the ground, which is better than nothing but really only helps for grounded trash mobs, it fires like once a second, which is okay I guess.
Honestly, I just don't really bother with it, I summon the thing and just forget about it, hovering around the tower's tiny effective range just never feels worth it to me,
maybe some other people out there could share their experience with this weapon? I'm surprised it has a following. I always thought everyone just forgot about it.


I know a lot of people who use it in early hardmode. You just toss it in a cave and it kills everything for you. The 'short range' isn't bad because it shoots the egg, misses, then clumps of spiders come out.

In the old one's army, it is incredibly useful, making the first round a lot easier. Since you'll probably be acquiring minion-boosting equipment for the OOA, it's even stronger. If you're wearing Tier 1 Tavernkeep armor and have an ogre sentry accessory, you can place 4 of them on platforms and they'll take care of a lot of the flying minions and do a lot of damage to drakins and ogres.

Against bosses, it's not so useful, I agree, since they eggs don't reach (except vs destroyer).

- Compared to the Ballista Rod, the other sentries fall behind in use, Explosive Trap especially.

Explosive trap can be summoned repeatedly to do huge damage, even in pre-hardmode. In hardmode, I've found it to be the best Old one's army trap in Master mode and MMFTW when paired with tavernkeep armor, since the armor boosts the speed a ton. If you want to beat Pumpkin Moon really easily. wear Huntress armor and lay down 3 explosive traps to lure Mourning Wood onto; it can solo them while you kill pumpkings.

I agree that Ballistas are better all-around, but I think Explosive trap has some niche areas that it's really good at that could be OP if pushed too much further
 

Dr. Flavin

Skeletron
About Queen Spider Staff earlier:

I know a lot of people who use it in early hardmode. You just toss it in a cave and it kills everything for you. The 'short range' isn't bad because it shoots the egg, misses, then clumps of spiders come out.

In the old one's army, it is incredibly useful, making the first round a lot easier. Since you'll probably be acquiring minion-boosting equipment for the OOA, it's even stronger. If you're wearing Tier 1 Tavernkeep armor and have an ogre sentry accessory, you can place 4 of them on platforms and they'll take care of a lot of the flying minions and do a lot of damage to drakins and ogres.

Against bosses, it's not so useful, I agree, since they eggs don't reach (except vs destroyer).


Explosive trap can be summoned repeatedly to do huge damage, even in pre-hardmode. In hardmode, I've found it to be the best Old one's army trap in Master mode and MMFTW when paired with tavernkeep armor, since the armor boosts the speed a ton. If you want to beat Pumpkin Moon really easily. wear Huntress armor and lay down 3 explosive traps to lure Mourning Wood onto; it can solo them while you kill pumpkings.

I agree that Ballistas are better all-around, but I think Explosive trap has some niche areas that it's really good at that could be OP if pushed too much further
Huh.
I guess I really was just the odd one out, I've never tried it with sentry gear.
For exploring, I never really use sentries, mainly because I like using whips for trash mobs better. I'll give it another chance sometime.

In retrospect the Explosive Trap buffs may have been a bit much, mainly cause of the set bonuses I forgot about.
I wouldn't exactly call re-summoning the thing repeatedly "huge damage" though, it's still got a use time of 30, it also drains your mana real fast.
Like the others that have this trait it makes repositioning less of a DPS loss and feels good, but it will always lose out to an actual magic weapon or summoner whip stacking.
 

MasterworkStone

Duke Fishron
The Old One's Army is mainly disliked because of what you're given to start with, this causes two different kinds of problems:
  1. When playing alone, a single event sentry is not enough, each of them has weaknesses that the others make up for, this is why people always duplicate the medals when they're playing alone. Without duplication, if you can't make it through the event, you would need to fail it multiple times to buy more of the sentries.
  2. When you are playing with others, one person is assigned sentry placement duty between waves because it's easier for one person to think about placement while others just dump the mana into their pockets.
I suggest fixing this by changing what the Tavernkeep gives you when asked about the crystal, instead of five Defender Medals, he now gives you the four basic event sentries. This removes the need for duplication when alone because now you start with everything you need and prevents one person from being assigned sentry placement duty because now everyone has the same tools, allowing everyone to think about placement.

This is actually far less over powered than receiving medals because one: each rod is only worth 1 gold which is the same value as the 5 medals because they can only be used to buy a single rod; and two: they can't be duplicated to skip the event all together if you just want the armors or the Defender's Forge.

Is it possible to make it so that Enchanted Sword Shrines generate in every world? They used to, and I think they especially should now because the Enchanted Sword is necessary to craft the Zenith.
You can get Enchanted Swords from Gold/Titanium Crates as of 1.4
 
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MasterworkStone

Duke Fishron
Increasing the drop rate would also be helpful. I don't see any real reason for it to be so low.
It's an ingredient for a post-moonlord weapon if not found pre-hardmode, so while technically there is no reason for it to be rare, there also is no reason why it should be easier to get.
Besides, it has its own loot pool, meaning every gold/titanium crate has a guaranteed chance to drop one.
 

Alfieboris

Terrarian
Endless Musket Pouch & Endless Quiver
* Now can be used as an alternative to Musket Balls & Wooden Arrows in recipes (i.e. Holy Arrows requires 200 Wooden Arrows, 3 Pixie Dust, and 1 Unicorn Horn, but can now also be crafted with Endless Quiver, 3 Pixie Dust, and 1 Unicorn Horn (The quiver is not consumed of course)).
Now we don't have to buy extra standard ammo to craft other ammos.
This isn't a bad idea.
But Why is there an empty bullet item, why aren't all bullets made from musket balls.
I suggest removing the item and changing the recipe of those bullets to musket balls because if the change BadPiggy1024 suggested would make it into the game it would further improve the crafting.
 

Falcon05

Plantera
This isn't a bad idea.
But Why is there an empty bullet item, why aren't all bullets made from musket balls.
I suggest removing the item and changing the recipe of those bullets to musket balls because if the change BadPiggy1024 suggested would make it into the game it would further improve the crafting.
Empty bullets exist because they are used to craft hardmode bullets.
Edit: though they could be removed along with tier-shifting party bullets to pre-hardmode, I'm not sure if removing content is on the table for this update
 

Alfieboris

Terrarian
Empty bullets exist because they are used to craft hardmode bullets.
Edit: though they could be removed along with tier-shifting party bullets to pre-hardmode, I'm not sure if removing content is on the table for this update
You still need the hardmode materials such as explosive powder or vials of venom and you can get empty bullets right after WoF.
Party bullet (it does 1 more dmg compared to silver/tungsten bullets) would be the only bullet that would be changed and you can still get them from the pigronatas in pre-hardmode so almost nothing would change.
 
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