Journey's End 1.4: Official Item Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Septer

Terrarian
This is a minor issue but, in expert mode there is not much point to making the Nebula/Vortex/Stardust/Solar wings as you will already have the Celestial Starboard from Moon Lord by the time you can craft them. I suggest removing luminite from the recipe and increasing their fragment costs so they will have some usability in the Moon Lord fight.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
Whip modifiers are very counter intuitive.
They have access to the same modifiers as swords which means they can get size modifiers, these size modifiers do absolutely nothing.
Modifiers that increase the speed of whips cause them to be smaller, and modifiers that make them slower cause them to be bigger causing slow modifiers to usually be better.
Whips cannot critically hit but still display critical chance on modifiers, but that is an issue all summon weapons have.

Make the size modifiers actually cause whips to have more reach and make speed modifiers not effect whips size. Should also remove the crit modifier being displayed on summon weapons.
 

King Omega

Official Terrarian
This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I think that the ninja armor should be reverted to throwing bonuses, as well as bringing back throwing damage in general. Leaving the 20% increased movement speed as the set bonus would both fit the theme as well as set it apart from the fossil armor, though that might be asking too much from one set. Throwing items currently are pretty bad, and nonexistent in hardmode. Having the set focus on boosting the effectiveness of throwing items alone would also make room for the harder to obtain fossil armor to be useful (although a buff to it seems needed too, though others have definitely voiced those concerns already), since currently the only difference between the sets is the ninja armors crit chance is universal, the ninja armor has 1 more defense, and then there are the set bonuses with ninja armors 20% movements speed and fossil armors 20% chance to not use ammo.

I know that throwables are now ranged damage and gain buffs from ranged armor, but with that said, why use any throwables as a ranged class when you have bows and guns that hit harder and/or farther away. The old ninja armor made throwables and the throwing class more usable, at least pre-hardmode, but now the only throwables ive been able to use to any degree effectively compared to a bow or gun are grenades and beenades, and even then i have to get close in to hit the boss with the not so great range that these items have. By adding a 5% increased throwing damage and velocity to each piece, then it would make throwing items more usable, as well as set the ninja armor apart from the fossil armor.

Also the ale tosser and bone glove exist, with the bone glove an expert/master mode exclusive, and having an armor set that boosts these items a decent amount would make them more viable as well, as long as they were considered throwing damage too.
 

Flubman

Terrarian
This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I think that the ninja armor should be reverted to throwing bonuses, as well as bringing back throwing damage in general. Leaving the 20% increased movement speed as the set bonus would both fit the theme as well as set it apart from the fossil armor, though that might be asking too much from one set. Throwing items currently are pretty bad, and nonexistent in hardmode. Having the set focus on boosting the effectiveness of throwing items alone would also make room for the harder to obtain fossil armor to be useful (although a buff to it seems needed too, though others have definitely voiced those concerns already), since currently the only difference between the sets is the ninja armors crit chance is universal, the ninja armor has 1 more defense, and then there are the set bonuses with ninja armors 20% movements speed and fossil armors 20% chance to not use ammo.

I know that throwables are now ranged damage and gain buffs from ranged armor, but with that said, why use any throwables as a ranged class when you have bows and guns that hit harder and/or farther away. The old ninja armor made throwables and the throwing class more usable, at least pre-hardmode, but now the only throwables ive been able to use to any degree effectively compared to a bow or gun are grenades and beenades, and even then i have to get close in to hit the boss with the not so great range that these items have. By adding a 5% increased throwing damage and velocity to each piece, then it would make throwing items more usable, as well as set the ninja armor apart from the fossil armor.

Also the ale tosser and bone glove exist, with the bone glove an expert/master mode exclusive, and having an armor set that boosts these items a decent amount would make them more viable as well, as long as they were considered throwing damage too.
The devs have already said making throwing a bonafide class would be a lot more work than it's worth.
 

Heroman3003

Retinazer
Imo, throwing should remain ranged damage... But also be influenced by specific armors, like fossil, independantly of ranged. That would make throwables perfectly viable for rangers and not remove the uniqueness of armors. Just have it be a damage sub-type of sorts, that gets buffs from everything that influences 'ranged' damage and everything that influences specifically 'throwing' as well. Then its a ranged side-grade style of thing.
 

JohannSimm

Retinazer
Imo, throwing should remain ranged damage... But also be influenced by specific armors, like fossil, independantly of ranged. That would make throwables perfectly viable for rangers and not remove the uniqueness of armors. Just have it be a damage sub-type of sorts, that gets buffs from everything that influences 'ranged' damage and everything that influences specifically 'throwing' as well. Then its a ranged side-grade style of thing.
I like this idea. I was just thinking a hybrid of the two styles would be interesting for those specific armors, giving them back some of their prior uniqueness, but with the throwing items kept as ranged damage.

Perhaps something like this (numbers not exact):

Fossil Armor:
Fossil Helmet – 3% increased ranged critical strike chance; 7% increased throwing velocity
Fossil Plate – 3% increased ranged critical strike chance; 7% increased throwing velocity
Fossil Greaves – 3% increased ranged critical strike chance; 7% increased throwing velocity
Set Bonus – 20% chance not to consume ammo; 50% chance not to consume thrown item

Ninja Armor:
Ninja Hood – 3% increased ranged critical strike chance; 5% increased throwing velocity
Ninja Shirt – 3% increased ranged critical strike chance; 5% increased throwing velocity
Ninja Pants – 3% increased ranged critical strike chance; 5% increased throwing velocity
Set Bonus – 20% increased movement speed; 33% chance not to consume thrown item

I think Fossil Armor should be more powerful than Ninja Armor. Otherwise they're too similar, and there's less incentive to go to the underground desert (now more dangerous) to obtain the materials. I think Fossil Armor's crafting requirement should be raised in return for making it more effective – either by increasing the Sturdy Fossil count, or having each piece incorporate a small quantity of Amber. Then it could be returned to its old defense values, and given some other number buffs.
 
Last edited:

King Omega

Official Terrarian
Let's not get this thread sidetracked into complex class changes and overhauls - it's intended for discussing less significant item mechanic and balance changes.

alright, i can respect that. How bout just giving each piece (or even just 1 or 2) of the ninja armor 5% increased damage. Something to give the armor a small buff other than movement speed compared to other armors the player usually has at the time. running fast and dodging easier is nice, but it needs a little something more for its low defense.
 

Snickerbobble

The Painter
Magic Missle, Flamelash, and Rainbow Rod feel a little TOO good now. I love these weapons, and I love how they're more viable (and they look GORGEOUS now), but there's one big problem..

You don't even have to aim. Not even in the general area- not even aim at the same side of screen. You can shoot in literally the opposite direction, and the projectiles will turn around and hit the target anyway. Their damage is probably a bit high too- considering they can also attack around corners (along with FL hitting twice per shot, and RR three times, so their actual damage is the listed damage times 2 or times 3), I just think the homing capabilities should be weakened, so you have to put SOME effort into using them. Why would anyone go for Demon Scythe and Flower of Fire now that Flamelash probably not only surpasses in DPS, but requires less effort to use? You could buff Night's Edge to 100 base damage, and I'd still stick with Flamelash.

There's also an issue of Sunfury being in every way superior to the Night's Edge (functionally, though NE is more valuable however as a material). Sunfury and even Cascade are far better options than using the Night's Edge. This is a tricky area because even giving the Night's Edge 30 more damage, I'd still say Sunfury and Cascade are better. The issue is the other two weapons do excellent damage and are far more versatile. They can effectively do whatever Night's Edge can do, but more. Flails were given the twirl mechanic to compete with yoyos, but now swords are inferior to flails, since swords at least still had the ability to swat bats away, but now flails can easily do that too. As good as Sunfury and Cascade are, though, they're no where near as good as the Flamelash. Better DPS with much, much less effort.

Maybe if flails spun around less quickly? Also, not so much a balance tweak, but I miss being able to shoot flails and walk back and forth or jump up and down and have the flail swing side to side, like I was spinning it around me. Not effective, but was fun to use. You can't do this anymore since the flail anchors down. I think I recall some adventure maps using this function to drag flails through tunnels to activate switches too.. now those maps are kinda busted. Instead of anchoring down, can we drag them? Those who want to use the anchor ability could still do this by not moving too far away from the dropped flail.

Night's Edge could maybe use a unique debuff? To help keep it on par with Sunfury and Cascade. I don't know if Shadowflame would exactly fit, or maybe something new. It just needs.. something. Right now I feel Fiery Greatsword's worth keeping as it provides much more light and more reach. Maybe a little less damage, but I find in generally more useful. Auto-swing would help a lot for Night's Edge too.. seems there's a few things it could be given.

Not really a balance change, but I feel Kaleidoscope could use a different whip sound. I was expecting something more mystical, more magical, like a beaming light lash, but it sounds like any other whip.

Also, something even smaller than that, maybe change Leather Whip's name to Pleather Whip? Seems to clash with the Zoologist's character to sell something made out of animal hide, since she loves animals.

There is also a criminal lack of a Squirrel Tail and Squirrel ears sold by her! CRIMINAAAAAL!!!!
 

Tripoli

Terrarian
Kaleidoscope could use a different whip sound
Speaking of sounds, can Terrablade, Meowmere and Star Wrath use different melee hit sound effect ? I have no problem with them looking like plastic toys, but they also sound like ones, which might have been a reason i dislike projectile swords in general. They don't feel as powerful as they are.
 

Derpinator-9000

The Destroyer
Heya, just finding out about this thread now, so I'm sorry if what I say has already been stated at some point, but I didn't read through all of the pages. Anyways, the point I want to make is that Summoner still feels like it's lacking as a class at certain points in progression, and especially in prehardmode and the early game. Now the whips are a great addition, and I think they are very great, but there's only 2 of them in prehardmode, and as for minions there's only around 5 total in prehardmode as well. Although its a step up from 1.3.5, it stills feels incredibly lacking. New weapons entirely are likely not going to come since this is Journey's End after all, but I think a few balance changes could go a long way to make the Summoner a bit more viable and fun to play in prehardmode. Here's what I would suggest.

1. Buff the Finch Staff. The Finch Staff is a great addition, to give Summoners at least some form of prehardmode minion to start with. But, it feels pretty underpowered, and kind of reminds me of the Wand of Sparking pre 1.4. It's good for giving Summoners a starting push, but considering it makes up 1/5 of all the prehardmode minions you can find, and it's likely are you are going to use for a while, it seems very weak. Not only does it have low damage in general, but the pure inaccuracy of this weapon makes it kill enemies painfully slow, especially in tougher difficulties. I know the devs don't encourage playing as only a single class, but I wanted to try it out to see how much Summoner was improved. Anyways, my point is that the Finch is very weak against anything but slimes. What makes this even more punishing is that it can be a bit hard to find, as it's not super common or craftable. Perhaps it should be added as an item available in all wooden chests and wooden crates, similar to the Wand of Sparking, instead of a rare item from living trees. Anyways, the lack of power in the Finch leads me to my next point

2. Make the Leather Whip a bit easier to get. Now I am a huge fan of Whips. They are a really cool concept and feature, and it fleshes out the class a ton. My problem lies with the fact that the Leather Whip, which is a solid weapon in general and is meant to be the first whip you get, is only obtainable when you fill out 15% of the Bestiary. This isn't too big of a problem in Multiplayer, but since I decided to challenge myself and only had the Finch, it took ages to kill enough enemies to unlock it in the shop, and this was only made harder by the fact that the Finch is weak in general (so making it better would lessen this problem too). Another change I would suggest is to lower the price on the Leather Whip a bit since it's pretty expensive as a starter weapon. The Snapthorn is a great weapon, and there's no real reason to get the Leather Whip, because rushing Snap Thorn is an all-around better strategy, since both are available pre-boss, and the Snap Thorn only requires you to kill enough enemies that drop Stingers to obtain. The Leather Whip should be easier to obtain in order to encourage getting it before the Snapthorn, and making it more useful.

3. Buff the Vampire Frog + Make it easier to obtain. In terms of weapons being underpowered or too hard to get (which is a bit of a theme with Summoner gear in general) the Vampire Frog is a pretty cool idea for a minion. The idea of getting it is unique too, which is fishing in a blood moon. However, even with the right setup and gear, Mermen are incredibly strong, and the Finch does not cut it in terms of killing them (honestly in general they are strong against most of the pre-boss teir weaponry) So your likely to not kill too many in a single blood moon. The rarity of the blood moon, combined with tankiness of mermen, combined with the rarity of the drop, makes the Vampire Frog an incredibly painful weapon to grind for. The worst part is that it also feels pretty underpowered once you get it. It's not inherently super bad, and the idea of a land minion is cool, but they aren't super good against fast or flying mobs, and they are kind of needed considering its the best minion you can get before fighting any bosses. What I would do is raise the drop chance a fair bit, and make the minion stronger in general.

With these problems, there are only really a few truly "Viable" weapons available to summoner in prehardmode, and (not counting the Ballista Staff or other Tavernkeep entries) would be the Snapthorn and Imps. Leather Whip is easily skippable, Finch is very underpowered, and the Frog is too hard to get, so the best option would be to grab a Snapthorn from the jungle and whip the EoW/BoC to death, and then use your new pickaxe to obtain the imps, and decimate every other prehardmode boss. The problem with summoner in prehardmode before (besides lack of items) was the fact that all you really had to do was get a Reavershark and rush Imps, making all other Summons invalid. In 1.4 it is practically the same, except replace the reaver shark with using Snapthorn against the world evil boss. Most weapons are either too weak or too hard to get to be considered viable, which is a problem with Summoner throughout the whole game, but most apparent in prehardmode.

One last point I have is, and its a bit of a lesser one, the hornet feels a bit weak too. Its certainly pretty good, but in the face of the new and improved imps (and the fact that you will likely get the imps sooner) I don't feel like there's any real reason to use the hornets.

Anyways sorry for making you read through this wall of text. My complaints come from a place of love for Terraria and admiration for the people who work on it. The Summoner is my favorite class, so the flaws in it are apparent to me. The unique playstyle and the challenge that comes from it is really fun and interesting.

TL;DR - Buff the Finch and Vampire Frog, and make them easier to get. Also make the leather whip easier to get so it's worth obtaining before the Snap Thorn
 

Flubman

Terrarian
I think it would be a nice change to be able to place multiple functional Universal Pylons in the same world as there are a lot of biomes that don't have their own pylon. As it stands, the Universal Pylon is a kinda underwhelming reward for something as hard as completing the bestiary.
 

Chry

Terrarian
TL;DR - Buff the Finch and Vampire Frog, and make them easier to get. Also make the leather whip easier to get so it's worth obtaining before the Snap Thorn

This has been mentioned, but at this point, after actually attempting a pure summon MM playthrough, I'm feeling fervently in favour of these upgrades, so I am voicing support.

Summoners feel like they were designed to be a challenging class. Melee damage being easiest, followed by ranged, then Magic and then Summoner being the hardest. And while I agree that Terraria definitely needs more challenging gameplay, there's a limit between a fun challenge to learn something new/try something different, and just frustration/annoyance/not fun.

Summoners need some serious love, and I am NOT someone that wants to be forced into downloading mods.

The finch staff, from my experience, does 1 dmg in MM on those very rare occasions where it actually hits the target. Slime staff needs to be a king slime drop so I don't have to feel guilty for swiping it from the builders workshop when i can't find a slime statue. And while I love whips, I feel they need some kind of extra buff and maybe more variety as well.
 

JohannSimm

Retinazer
I saw somebody on Reddit put forward the suggestion that instead of having banners go in the player inventory with every 50th kill (and fall on the ground if there's no space), they could instead become available for collection from the Bestiary. You could have multiple banners of the same type accumulate, and you could collect them all at once whenever.
 

Alaron

Terrarian
I've been giving the problem of early hardmode swords some thought, and I think I have some ideas. I'm going to run through my general thoughts on what the different swords in consideration should be before I get on to changes.

Ore Swords should remain statsticks; nothing fancy, just numbers tweaks. They're also the least important because frankly they'd probably never be worth the ore it takes to craft them.

Phasesabers can and should be given unique functionality to set them apart, since they're currently just statsticks like the ore swords.

The Night's Edge shouldn't get any abilities that would later be lost in its crafting tree; it would be counter-intuitive to have the Night's Edge capable of things the True Night's Edge lacks. Given that it's the ultimate prehardmode sword, it should also be desirable to use, not just a crafting material.

The Breaker Blade should retain its current niche of clearing out groups of weaker enemies from your immediate vicinity. It shouldn't be a dud drop from the Wall of Flesh, but it doesn't need to be super great either, as it's relatively simple to acquire.


Now, on to my suggestions.

Ore Swords, as mentioned, stay as they are, perhaps with numbers tweaks.

Phasesabers (and Phaseblades) get a near total revamp. Give them a Defense piercing ability like that of the Blade Staff, and turn them into low damage high speed weapons. At least to me, this makes sense for a laser sword, since it won't weigh much (fast attack speed) and wouldn't be stopped by armor (Defense pierce). This gives them unique properties to help make them more attractive.

The Night's Edge really suffers from coming at a point where pure melee weapons just don't make the cut, because getting close to enemies gets a lot more dangerous and/or difficult. My proposal is to give it a projectile similar to that of the True Night's Edge, but only triggered if the weapon itself hits something like The Horseman's Blade. This would hopefully make it a lot better against the Wall of Flesh which has lots of adds, while also giving it value in early hardmode where melee really appreciates any range they can get. For the sake of parity, Excalibur would get the same effect, and it also could use a buff.

The Breaker Blade is the trickiest one to balance, in no small part because I have no idea how easy it would be to code things. Some ideas I've had:
Killing an enemy with the Breaker Blade very temporarily boosts its damage. This makes it good at tearing through crowds of weak enemies, and the duration could be made short enough that swapping weapons to use the buff on another weapon would be impractical.
The Breaker Blade deals more damage to enemies with no/low armor. This makes it the reverse of the reworked Phasesabers, and the fodder enemies tend to have low Defense
The Breaker Blade deals additional damage based on how much knockback an enemy takes from it. Probably too hard to code, but gives it a unique mechanic you could make silly builds around, and fodder enemies also tend to have low knockback resistance.
 

Flubman

Terrarian
I also think Master Mode could use some rework. It's almost impossible to beat bosses in multiplayer. An easy fix would be to lower enemy stat modifiers somewhat.
 

Ciern_Selar

Terrarian
The gap between Expert and Master Modes does seem a tad too steep. The difficulty of Pre-HArdmode, in general, was increased with the nerfs and I feel it's made a part of the game that was a slog even worse.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom