Journey's End 1.4: Official Item Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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Mint Coffee

Spazmatism
As for something completely unrelated to my previous post, summoner has been kinda notoriously underpowered pre-hardmode even with the recent new buffs and items added. Vampire frogs are stupidly rare, you need to beat the queen bee (A fairly challenging boss with just 2 summons and a whip) before even getting a summoner armour and beating skeletron grants you access to a whole total of 0 new weapons or armours, having you settle for just the privilege of the bewitching table.

Instead of adding new items, can't we retro-fit previously miscellaneous/kinda useless sets into granting summoner bonuses? The ones that jump to mind being:

Ninja set - Since now you can have access to a full ranged set really early due to the fossil rework and a full mage set with the jungle armour, the only real loss to making it a summoner set would be that melee players will have to potentially use ore armour in it's place which is more than enough for them. A very cool addition to this potentially being a hidden set bonus that increases the drop rates of slime staves, so you're not starved for damage until you get a ~5% drop after fishing in a blood moon for half an hour. Very aesthetically tied to the slime staff too.

Obsidian Outlaw set - Has it ever had any reason to have so much defense attached to it? I don't think many would oppose this losing some defense and becoming a post-EoW/BoC summoner set at the cost of obsidian no longer being obtainable before the world evil pickaxes (If I'm not mistaken you can get it early with explosives). Would be pretty aesthetically matching with the Imp Staff, too.

Gladiator set - If the drop chance of these is increased a fair amount and it was rebalanced to provide summoner-friendly benefits it might actually give marble biomes a non-cosmetic point to them. While it doesn't particularly go with any pre-hm summon lore-wise, it's still something.

Btw the vampire frog drop rate needs to be bumped up, it's such a grind. Even if it becomes a cascade-type weapon where it's only available upon defeating a certain boss.
 

Septer

Terrarian
I think a good way to help deal with jungle deforestation is by adding mud bombs which work like dirt bombs but spread mud. This will make it less tedious to recover a jungle from corruption or crimson.
 

Rumbledinger

Terrarian
Zenith OP
to craft a Zenith you need 2 components that are exclusive to Moon Lord so i don't think that having a Super Strong Weapon as a Reward for beating the entire Chain of Bosses including the endboss is an issue nor makes the Weapon too op: you have to fricking work for that weapon...

the thing that makes me more question is that Melee had already Stronger Endgame Weapons which outclassed all other Form of Damages and Playstyles so why another Powerful Melee Weapon that even upgrades from previous Powerful melee Weapons While the rest stays the same.
I think a good way to help deal with jungle deforestation is by adding mud bombs which work like dirt bombs but spread mud. This will make it less tedious to recover a jungle from corruption or crimson.

Mud Alone wont solve this, since it is not the mud that gets infected but the stuff that grows on it. as i mentioned in an earlier post of mine the Jungle consist majorily of plants, grass and other non solid block things that are easier to infect/convert then solid blocks are, the bomb idea would require to spread jungle grass and plants on explosion aswell to actually be a reliable tool to regrow a working jungle if the initial jungle got lost.

Also what get's me thinking is something i read under the trivia section of "The Hallow" wiki page:
It is complete, extreme purity that serves to cure threats that attempt to disrupt the natural balance of good and evil. "

to put it in short: Jungle is good, corruption/crimson is evil.
by being able to take over the jungle via the grass and walls and not being able to overtake the evil biomes aswell in addition to it not naturally generating inbetween these 2 to prevent evil from overtaking the good it defeats it's own reason of existance
 

Unftf

Terrarian
to craft a Zenith you need 2 components that are exclusive to Moon Lord so i don't think that having a Super Strong Weapon as a Reward for beating the entire Chain of Bosses including the endboss is an issue nor makes the Weapon too op: you have to fricking work for that weapon...
It makes all other weapons and also armor and accessories unimportant. All other ML weapon drops are trashed away. There is no point of playing the game anymore after receiving this weapon. No need to farm any rare enemy drop for better gear, no tinkering about best item combination. Everyone can onclick everything.
Just the normal game progress had to be done for this weapon. It does not include any rare or hard to get weapon. Most enemies which drop required weapons can just be summon by the player.

the thing that makes me more question is that Melee had already Stronger Endgame Weapons which outclassed all other Form of Damages and Playstyles so why another Powerful Melee Weapon that even upgrades from previous Powerful melee Weapons While the rest stays the same.
This weapon is so powerful it can be used by any class. Even if your equipment has no bonus for melee weapons at all you will be able to kill all bosses and events with this.
 
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violet & beige

Terrarian
A simple little suggestion that I want to see the actual number when holding the cursor above boss' health bar at the bottom of the screen, just same as I hold the cursor on my heath bar
 

bastie

Terrarian
-new brain of confusion is too strong I would remove the crit bonus from it.

-Fossil and obsidian armor are hot garbage, give them a purpose other than bloat.

-Queen slimes drops are hot garbage.

- Soaring insignia is too strong makes so much gear straight up useless.

- Zenith is broken as hell.

- Shiny Stone is still pure garbage remove the “don't move” penalty from it but lower the health regen

-pylons should stop biome spread around them.

-Pyramids should be made more common,or give us other ways to get the drops
 
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darthmorf

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
It makes all other weapons and also armor and accessories unimportant. All other ML weapon drops are trashed away. There is no point of playing the game anymore after receiving this weapon. No need to farm any rare enemy drop for better gear, no tinkering about best item combination. Everyone can onclick everything.
Just the normal game progress had to be done for this weapon. It does not include any rare or hard to get weapon. Most enemies which drop required weapons can just be summon by the player.


This weapon is so powerful it can be used by any class. Even if your equipment has no bonus for melee weapons at all you will be able to kill all bosses and events with this.
Thing is, by the time you obtain it, you've beaten the game. It's not OP because there's nothing that's designed to be able to withstand it. The whole point of the sword is that it's a nuts, end of the game final weapon that can destroy everything.
 

darthmorf

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
That's not the case. There were people who killed ML but did not manage to kill Fishron, Betsy, lvl 15 pumpkin moon or lvl 20 frost moon.
Well, it is. Moonlord is the final boss. If people choose to play out of order like that then it's on them if they get gear that's too powerful for the content they skipped. It's not like you have to use the weapon anyway, if you feel more comfortable just don't make it.
 

violet & beige

Terrarian
Please increase the drop rate of special items from bosses and rare enemies in master mode.
I play master mode just because I want to challenge myself against bosses, but not to do it over and over again just waiting for the item I wish to get. Pets and mounts need to be 100% obtained. Relics don't make any sence when beating a boss the second time, selling them away will be the only one thing to do.
And I hope I can obtain at least one more item when opening a treasure bag in master mode, rather than the same as I do in expert mode. You need to make a real difference between master mode and expert mode. Not just increase some numbers and add another bunch of toys. The master mode now is not appealling enough to players. For me, I would play master mode only one time, then I'd rather go back to the expert mode for an better experience.
 

Greybrynn

Torch God
Please increase the drop rate of special items from bosses and rare enemies in master mode.
I play master mode just because I want to challenge myself against bosses, but not to do it over and over again just waiting for the item I wish to get. Pets and mounts need to be 100% obtained. Relics don't make any sence when beating a boss the second time, selling them away will be the only one thing to do.
And I hope I can obtain at least one more item when opening a treasure bag in master mode, rather than the same as I do in expert mode. You need to make a real difference between master mode and expert mode. Not just increase some numbers and add another bunch of toys. The master mode now is not appealling enough to players. For me, I would play master mode only one time, then I'd rather go back to the expert mode for an better experience.
The treasure bags are a expert mode item, they only do expert mode, master mode drops, aren’t part of the bags, so yeah even if they wanted to do that, they would have to make a different treasure bag. They don’t want to add something like a weapon or accesory just cause they buffed expert AI bosses health and damage
 

violet & beige

Terrarian
The treasure bags are a expert mode item, they only do expert mode, master mode drops, aren’t part of the bags, so yeah even if they wanted to do that, they would have to make a different treasure bag. They don’t want to add something like a weapon or accesory just cause they buffed expert AI bosses health and damage
Yeah, chaging numbers is the most simple thing to do.
 
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Yvori

Terrarian
Zenith OP
Well... yes, that's kind of the point. It's meant to be to weapons what the Drill Containment Unit is to pickaxes.

Well, it is. Moonlord is the final boss. If people choose to play out of order like that then it's on them if they get gear that's too powerful for the content they skipped. It's not like you have to use the weapon anyway, if you feel more comfortable just don't make it.
Exactly. It's like saying that Skeletron or Queen Bee is too easy to beat with post-Wall Of Flesh gear. Obviously.
And this also applies to all the post-Moon Lord weapons anyway, honestly. They all completely trivialize previous content... which is the point of an endgame weapon.
The Zenith is just a more powerful variant of that... so like... You have weapons that trivialize everything before them, and a weapon which trivializes it all faster. That one requires you to have done a lot more stuff to craft it, compared to the others which drop from a boss. Seems fair to me.

The only issue I see with the Zenith is it possibly unbalancing mods that add post-Moon Lord content... but the mod authors can easily deal with that by nerfing it, or adding their own items to its crafting recipe, etc. Heck, I bet most big-name mods will end up adding their own Zenith-like items for every class like they did with Terra Blade and Night's Edge equivalents.

Its been a busy weekend guys, I'm finally caught up and going to start reviewing what I missed in the thread. Will chime in on things I feel are relevant to my scope or clarify issues.
Thank you for continuing to go through all the feedback, and responding to relevant topics so we're kept in the loop as to why certain things are/aren't brought up with the devs, even though there's so much of it! In terms of Quality Assurance, you're top quality!
 

mathbrush

Terrarian
I have to say that the rebalancing on the wings is superb. I've been making pages for them on the wiki, and it seems like they were kind of a mess before, with hard-to-get wings not having enough power etc.

Now the pre-mechanical boss wings are all weaker than the post-mechanical boss wings, and the boss drop wings are better than the craftable wings, etc. The progression feels so much more natural, and I think you guys nailed it!
 

WatcherCCG

Terrarian
The only issue I see with the Zenith is it possibly unbalancing mods that add post-Moon Lord content... but the mod authors can easily deal with that by nerfing it, or adding their own items to its crafting recipe, etc. Heck, I bet most big-name mods will end up adding their own Zenith-like items for every class like they did with Terra Blade and Night's Edge equivalents.
I'd seriously put money on Calamity kneecapping Zenith and a couple other things. Thorium, SoA, and Spirit might do so as well. Well, probably not Thorium. Only one post-ML boss.
Its been a busy weekend guys, I'm finally caught up and going to start reviewing what I missed in the thread.
I'm sure you're beyond ready for the hotfix phase to be over so you can start doing balance passes. Stay strong, sir.
 

JohannSimm

Retinazer
For the Optic Staff, would it be possible to make Retinazer's lasers no longer pierce? This should lead to an improvement in DPS, and Spazmatism provides crowd control anyways so it's no real loss.
I believe they changed that staff (and many others) to use separate immunity frames.

From the 1.4 patch notes:
"Some (though not all) Summons now use their own damage immunity timer system. In practice, what this means is that they will no longer interfere with the use of other weapons by maxing out the enemy's immunity frames. All affected minions are set on their own damage timer to most correctly match their pre-change DPS, but some changes are to be expected comparing 1.3.5 DPS to 1.4 DPS. In general, even if there is some minor loss or gain of DPS compared to pre-change performance, it should be worth the improvement to overall performance. Examples of minions impacted by this change:
- Slime Staff
- Spider Staff
- Pirate Staff
- Optic Staff
- Raven Staff
- Deadly Sphere Staff
- Stardust Dragon Staff
- Some of the new summons also utilize this system"
 
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