Journey's End 1.4: Official Item Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
Stronger than the corruption/crimson ones in damage and is available earlier

The Underground Jungle (the only source of vines and Jungle Spores needed to make the Amazon) is generally considered more dangerous than the Crimson/Corruption. Survival chances in such areas without post-EoW/BoC gear are fairly low unless you're really good. As such, items crafted from UJ materials are more powerful than those gained from other places.

it's range can also be patched with a string accessory

That's one of the principle downsides of YoYos, not an advantage. To make them really good, you have to burn at least one accessory slot on them.
 

Tyrian3k

Duke Fishron
Even against a target dummy something which make no effort to 'charge toward' the player crystal bullets still have more single target dps than luminite ones.
Defense isn't enough to discourage using crystal bullets just fire a few ichor arrows every 10 seconds an you've basically eliminated the defense of the mech bosses.
The only time where I really notice crystal bullets being screwed by defense is when trying to use an onyx blaster or megashark against duke fishron's 30 defense after applying ichor.
Something to note about lumitie bullets is that you need to beat the final boss to craft them while crystal bullets are obtainable in early hardmode, if a post moonlord bullet is a sidegrade to one you get way earlier in the game don't you think that means crystal bullets might be a bit too op?

I think Crystal Bullets are more of a popular choice because most other choices are without any real purpose.

Silver/Tungsten Bullets, Party Bullets High Velocity Bullets are basically just slightly better Musket Balls. Of course HVBs travel faster, but missing enemies is more often than not due to human error than a too slow bullet speed.

Golden Bullets allow you to spend money to maybe make money, but if used on anything that doesn't drop a particularly high number of coins, they will just lose you money. Since you could just make an AFK money farm or use an endless pouch that saves you the ammo cost completely instead of having to hope for additional coin drops they aren't really worth using for anything. If you could quickly switch bullets and deliver the killing blow with these, they could actually have an application.

Nano Bullets apply a debuff that 99% of all enemies are just straight up immune to. I mean, just look at the list on the debuff's page. It might as well be a list of all enemies an on top of that even includes some critters! Why would anyone use these if even a basic Zombie is immune to it? Its only benefit over Musket Balls is damage.

Venom and Cursed Bullets apply a dot that is ultimately way too weak to give you a substantial DPS boost. On single, tough targets, the difference in damage is miniscule because the vast majority of the damage will come from the direct hit and against groups of weaker enemies, the impact is also insubstantial because the enemies will die before the dot has dealt enough damage to make a difference. Needless to say, many enemies are just straight up immune to the debuff. Then you basically just have a single hit bullet that deals a tad more damage than a regular bullet.
If the debuff dealt damage that is based on the target's HP (with a cap of course), these could work more effectively, but that can make these debuffs very lethal to the player as well.

Ichor bullets' only benefit would be in conjunction with other bullets, which are not reasonably switchable during any battle that is dangerous enough to require such optimization. As such, they are also without purpose because you're better off crafting a Golden Shower to apply the debuff on the fly.
If you use them exclusively, they are, once again, just normal bullets with a bit of additional damage.

That's 10 bullet types out of 15 and all of them function almost the exact same way, save for having maybe slightly more or less damage or a debuff that ultimately amounts to essentially nothing in the grand scheme of things.



Meteor Shots are the first more unique bullet type you can acquire and the only non-standard bullet in pre-HM that is more than just a basic bullet. It's also useless in the vast majority of the weapons players will use due to them causing i-frames, which makes other bullets hitting at the same time completely miss. The most popular guns are the machine guns like the Minishark or the shotguns like the Boomstick, all of which cannot take advantage of these at all.

Chlorophyte bullets only stop you from missing, but many bosses are big enough to not need that at all. I only ever used these for the Moon Lord and nowhere else. And without a dedicated Chlorophyte farm, these are also quite expensive.

Exploding Bullets could be fun and useful against grouped enemies like in invasions since they are basically the bullet-equivalent of Hellfire Arrows, but unlike Hellfire Arrows, these bullets can damage the user, instantly turning otherwise great bullets straight into trash.

Luminite Bullets are great, but not very useful for progression, considering they are post Moon-Lord. They're basically irrelevant by the time you get them anyway.

That now only leaves Crystal Bullets to save the day for gunners as a cheap and useful type of ammo. Maybe they outshine other bullets with their capabilities, but I feel like that has more to do with the other bullets being too mundane and uninteresting than with the Crystal Bullets being too strong. Crystal Bullets don't stand out all that much when compared to what non-bullet-firing weapons like bows, launchers and unique weapons offer the player.

I don't see a need to discourage the use of Crystal Bullets I see a need to encourage the use of a lot of the other types of bullets, which too often are barely more than a slightly better standard musket ball.
 

Derpinator-9000

The Destroyer
For the Optic Staff, would it be possible to make Retinazer's lasers no longer pierce? This should lead to an improvement in DPS, and Spazmatism provides crowd control anyways so it's no real loss.
Yeah I agree with this. I think it could use a slight damage buff too, because as it stands Sanguine and arguably Blade staff with the right setup are both better, despite being pre-mech.
 

Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
I think Crystal Bullets are more of a popular choice because most other choices are without any real purpose.

While I can agree with some of this, you do minimize the amount of direct damage a bullet does. This is especially important early game, where guns don't have a high firing rate.

But yes, once you get into Hardmode, the combination of Golden Shower Ichor debuffing (if that's available to you) and Crystal Bullet fragmentation does outclass other bullet ammo in most situations. Coupled with this is the fact that Crystal fragments are easily farmable, so supply isn't a problem.
 

J Bame

Terrarian
-Yoyos, I've gotten an enchanted sword early on in my master mode run and used it most of the time. I then heard while playing with my friends that they were confused why Yoyos got damage buffs (Amarok mainly came to their mind). So later on I go back to Master Mode and find out about the yoyo called Amazon (Stronger than the corruption/crimson ones in damage and is available earlier, tis odd to my eyes), I get the stuff for it and make it. I still have yet to put the Amazon down, it's a very safe option, and has a gap in dps between it and swords I feel. It was my go to weapon for Eye of Chuthulu, King Slime, and Eater of Worlds. Point is that Yoyos outdo other counterparts such as Swords/Spears and even Boomerangs it seems, while not really having a cooldown like magic does with the variation in mana usage, it's range can also be patched with a string accessory (Which can be reforged very cheaply for warding).

You are comparing the Amazon to weapons that come before it in progression. It's supposed to perform better than those.

Now, it is true that the average p-Hm yoyo is better than the average p-Hm melee weapon, but the issue here isn't that one group needs a nerf, but rather that the other needs to be buffed. A lot of phm Melee weapons are pretty damn underwhelming, which makes the yoyos look better than they actually are.
 
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Tyrian3k

Duke Fishron
While I can agree with some of this, you do minimize the amount of direct damage a bullet does. This is especially important early game, where guns don't have a high firing rate.

But yes, once you get into Hardmode, the combination of Golden Shower Ichor debuffing (if that's available to you) and Crystal Bullet fragmentation does outclass other bullet ammo in most situations. Coupled with this is the fact that Crystal fragments are easily farmable, so supply isn't a problem.

Where do I minimize the amount of direct damage of a bullet? In my mention of the Cursed and Venom Bullets I literally state the exact opposite since the dot is way too insignificant compared to the direct damage. This gap only becomes bigger as the player gets better weapons as well, since the dot is just a static amount of damage that doesn't scale at all.
The dots could either scale based off the enemy's HP or scale based off of the actual damage dealt (which would make the sniper quite devastating as a dot-applying weapon).

The thing is that direct damage is something all bullets do, including Crystal ones. It's just that barely any of the other bullets do anything beyond that initial hit and effectively end up being nothing more than stronger Musket balls.



I think a quick swap between your ammo slots would do wonders to encourage players to stack a few debuffs on a boss or finish a gold-dropping enemy with a golden bullet instead of a normal one.

Additionally, the number of immune enemies really need to be reduced. Just compare the list of immune enemies for the Ichor debuff to the Venom, Cursed Inferno or Confusion ones.
Ichor works basically against anything in the game, Cursed Inferno works against maybe half the enemies while Venom and Confusion barely work against anything at all and might as well not exist at that point.
 

Talerax

Official Terrarian
Additionally, the number of immune enemies really need to be reduced. Just compare the list of immune enemies for the Ichor debuff to the Venom, Cursed Inferno or Confusion ones.
Ichor works basically against anything in the game, Cursed Inferno works against maybe half the enemies while Venom and Confusion barely work against anything at all and might as well not exist at that point.

I totally agree with this, any change to these debuffs will be irrelevant if we can't apply them in the first place.
 

Nickural

Terrarian
You are comparing the Amazon to weapons that come before it in progression. It's supposed to perform better than those.

Now, it is true that the average p-Hm yoyo is better than the average p-Hm melee weapon, but the issue here isn't that one group needs a nerf, but rather that the other needs to be buffed. A lot of phm Melee weapons are pretty damn underwhelming, which makes the yoyos look better than they actually are.
I was trying to compare it to stuff like the enchanted sword or even the other jungle weapons, still my fault in for not specifying which one's I'm comparing to.

I do agree, I haven't fiddled around in Hardmode yet with Yoyos so I'm not sure about the dps there.
 

Chimerabot

Skeletron Prime
Moon Lord's sentry staff drops, in my opinion, have pretty low damage compared to other late-game summons, such as the Frost Hydra. Perhaps a couple upgrades in speed or something would make them a little more usable in-game, especially because all of the summons bought from the Tavernkeep are basically unusable. Such a shame, considering how good they are.
 

Talerax

Official Terrarian
Moon Lord's sentry staff drops, in my opinion, have pretty low damage compared to other late-game summons, such as the Frost Hydra. Perhaps a couple upgrades in speed or something would make them a little more usable in-game, especially because all of the summons bought from the Tavernkeep are basically unusable. Such a shame, considering how good they are.
Frost Hydra is slow and has zero crowd control as a trade off for high base damage though. And what do you mean that Tavernkeep's sentries are unusable?

Edit: I just done a quick testing and found that Frost Hydra is really bad at dealing with flying enemies, it can't even accurately hit Flying Fish RIP
Among the late-game non-Tavernkeep sentries, I would say that Frost Hydra is the worst because the arrow-speed projectiles without leading shot will only be effective against non-moving or ground enemies, or maybe I shoud say 'enemy' because its projectiles don't pierce.
 
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Chimerabot

Skeletron Prime
Frost Hydra is slow and has zero crowd control as a trade off for high base damage though. And what do mean that Tavernkeep's sentries are unusable?
For a minute there, I incorrectly remembered that the Tavernkeep's sentries cannot be used without Etherian mana. Just looked it up and found out that it takes Etherian mana to spawn more than one, so it looks like I was incorrect. That's what I meant when I said they couldn't be used, I was just remembering incorrectly.
 

ppowersteef

Paladin
I don't got the changes made to the Chlorophyte Mask.
"losing 5 defence to gain 5% damage resist if wearing the full set."
A set bonus specific for wearing the Chlorophyte Mask is an odd one. That's the only set that does that as far I know, that makes the mask feel weaker if you overlook it's extra set bonus.
I assume it's done to avoid hybridizing, too bad that was the unique thing I liked about Chlorophyte armor, to combine it's headgear with different sets. I'll still find it weird how the other 2 unique helmets remains unchanged. With helmet granting ammo consumption and headgear granting reduced mana on their own, I find 25 defence the least to worry about.
If 25 defence was considered OP, then the Hallowed Mask will top it over with 24 defence, might actually as well keep wearing the full hallowed set instead.


(And on a sidenote, I kinda hoped for that the Ancient Hallowed Armor had retained it's old set bonus. I've enjoyed the raw melee stats.)
 
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Talerax

Official Terrarian
A set bonus specific for wearing the Chlorophyte Mask is an odd one. That's the only set that does that as far I know, that makes the mask feel weaker if you overlook it's extra set bonus.
Hallowed Armor also does similar thing with Hallowed Hood, giving +2 minions as additional set bonus only when wearing Hallowed Hood. But that's probably because a straight +3 is too OP hybrid choice.
 

XRynerX

Terrarian
Not sure if this was already commented on since there are lots of comments to read, but if this is possible:

  1. Summoner at the start of the game is very bad because his first summons are RNG, and with the Reaver Shark nerf, you cannot rush imp staff, so if somehow the Flynch Staff was craftable instead of chest item would do wonders(like, 15 wood, 1 captured bird, 3 worms), because right now if you cannot find Flynch Staff, you either reset world or use mage/ranger weapons until you get the Snapthorn.
  2. If somehow the devs could add more items, definitelly wish to add an accessory tree for whip, like the yoyo, maybe even another pre-harmode set armor for summoner, since he's pretty much stuck on bee armor pre-hardmode, while other classses has options.
  3. In hardmode, there's many enemies immune to DOT damage, which gets in the way of making them usefull for the likes of Melee and Ranger class.
  4. Optic Staff needs a little buff in damage, as Sanguine Staff and Blade Staff are far more realiable than Optic, both said staffs you get before Twins.
Positive feedback
Pylons, they make the life a whole lot easier now that this indirectly helped in getting hardmode gear a lot faster, and fishing quests has less of this "walk to the biome, fish for a few minutes, walk the entire thing back to him."
Empress of Light is an enjoyable boss, difficult, but not frustating as mech bosses.
Whip is a nice addition, doesn't make summoner a powerhouse, but at least you won't play the entire game being just minions doing the damage.
 

JohannSimm

Retinazer
Nano Bullets apply a debuff that 99% of all enemies are just straight up immune to. I mean, just look at the list on the debuff's page. It might as well be a list of all enemies an on top of that even includes some critters! Why would anyone use these if even a basic Zombie is immune to it? Its only benefit over Musket Balls is damage.
This last bit about the zombies is not accurate. All zombies are susceptible to Confused, as are most skeletons, and all bats. There was a recent error on the Wiki whereby each enemy with no immunities was incorrectly shown to be immune to Confused. The issue has now been resolved.

Some enemies such as worms need Confused immunity because of how their AIs function, but there are some fighter-type and flyer-type enemies that could have that immunity removed. I can't see any reason why Vultures and Harpies need immunity to Confused; neither do Crawdads, Cochineal Beetles, etc. Also, many Martian Madness enemies are immune to Confused when they don't need to be.

Additionally, the number of immune enemies really need to be reduced. Just compare the list of immune enemies for the Ichor debuff to the Venom, Cursed Inferno or Confusion ones.
Ichor works basically against anything in the game, Cursed Inferno works against maybe half the enemies while Venom and Confusion barely work against anything at all and might as well not exist at that point.
The most problematic enemies in this regard are skeletons, as they account for pretty much all dungeon enemies. Slimes and plants are also immune, as are elementals/robots/possessed armor. Most enemies that inflict Poison/Venom are immune, including spiders and hornets – in fact, most Jungle enemies are immune.

Options here are more limited, because it wouldn't make any sense if you were able to poison skeletons or machines. Removing the immunity of slimes could be an option, but it seems like an implied core part of their biology, and they tend to be weak regardless.

The immunity of Jungle enemies could be removed, if we decide that it makes sense for Poisonous/Venomous creatures to be susceptible to poisoning (as in real life such creatures tend only to be immune to the venom of their own species). But it's implied that these creatures have evolved such natural immunities due to the hostile environment; Moths, for example, mutated via exposure to Jungle toxins – implying they and other Jungle enemies have incorporated natural immunity.

On the other side of the coin, there are many random creatures that just happen to have immunity to Poison/Venom, including Snow Flinxes, Face Monsters, Ichor Stickers, and most Pirate Invasion enemies. Lihzahrds have the immunity, even though they don't inflict it. Non-venemous spiders could justifiably have the immunity removed. So could all Mimics. The same goes for some bosses that are immune, including Duke Fishron, the Wall of Flesh, and the Lunatic Cultist – it makes perfect sense that Poison/Venom could affect them. (Conversely the Twins, being robotic, should receive that immunity.)
 
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JohannSimm

Retinazer
I have a small suggestion: The Wiki claims the Hemogoblin Shark takes no damage from lava. This may be a side effect of how it interacts with liquids, but I see no reason why it shouldn't be affected by lava. So I suggest that the enemy be changed to be susceptible to lava.
 

RaiokuMoonscar

Terrarian
For a minute there, I incorrectly remembered that the Tavernkeep's sentries cannot be used without Etherian mana. Just looked it up and found out that it takes Etherian mana to spawn more than one, so it looks like I was incorrect. That's what I meant when I said they couldn't be used, I was just remembering incorrectly.

Valhalla Knight Armor makes the end game sentries really potent if you wanna give it a shot. Having up to 5 sentries from the armor + accessory can make for fun times. :D
 

JohannSimm

Retinazer
This is something that was just raised to my attention: In this thread, a person describes how they can use the housing checker to search for underground caves. This is an unintentional exploit, and should probably be removed. Somebody suggested adding an error message such as "This area is not visible" to prevent this.
 

JohannSimm

Retinazer
Attack pattern of *enraged* Duke Fishron is too simple without randomness and need to be tweaked. ... Just some simple tracks and wooden minecart. He can never hit (even in expert phase 3)!

Since truffle worm can be farmed before defeating any of the mechanical bosses, this method provide an easy way to get OP weapons immediately after Wall of Flesh, without any skill or gear requirement. IMO it should be buffed with more complex attack patterns. (or some randomized attacks?)

Added more examples of abusing enraged duke fishron. #1. Anti-gravity hook. Simply grapple and keep spinning. #2. Long platforms. Jumping practice and muscle memory are required for fixed lunging patterns.

I'm posting here because of two reasons. First, they changed Reaver Shark and Meteorites, and these two are popular gear boosting strategies in expert mode. Duke fishron after Wall of Flesh should be the third. Second, the boosting effect of defeating duke fishron is super significant (than previous two). One can easily take all three mechanical bosses together with fishron weapons, essentially RUIN other players' experience in multiplayer.

I'm not sure if devs know this or not. Simply moves truffle worm spawn after plantera will work, but it may be a 'punish' for those who can really defeat duke fishron with gears before any mechanical bosses in ocean biome, which requires much more patience, skill and practice than just copying a rigid minetrack design.
I'm not the one who discover this. Cheesing enraged duke fishron using minecart after WoF is pretty popular, wide-spread (and notorious) in our local community, but people here may not be familar with it. (How notorious? If anyone wants to upload video about challanging hardmode runs that showing his skill, he has to say "Items from duke fishron are banned", otherwise nobody would watch it)
Honestly, the best fix would just be to have the Truffle Worm spawn only post-Plantera, to be in line with the Prismatic Lacewing. In the end it's a small price to pay. Maybe some really skilled players could beat him right off the bat, but it still breaks the progression to an extent.

Adding a slight amount of unpredictability to Duke Fishron's enraged attack patterns might be a good idea, as long as the implementation isn't overly involved.
 
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